Thoughts on difficulty level of new trials (vSO, MOL and soon vHRC and vAA)

Alcast

Woeler wrote: »

Can we please stop asking to nerf every piece of content for good players? The problem is not that trials are too difficult, the problem is that people thing they are entitled to competing a veteran trial with a semi-random group that never played together in 2 hours.

This exactly.

Todays generation always thinks everything should get shoveld up their aholes. Maybe instead of QQing it ACTUALLY could be a cool idea to work towards smth?
I mean, kids these days...jeeez

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

I do know it is not easy to get into End-Game in this game as there are very few skilled players left in ESO and there is only a handful of competitive Guilds. Tho if you want to achiev smth you need to practice....and if you are not willing to do that then well...deal with it.

YoloWizard

And thats freaking why ZOS added a difficulty level (normal/veteran) to all Trials.
People who bought the game and wanna go through all content can do so with normal difficulty and be freaking done with it, you even have similar loot table as the vet version but with different drop rate.

Why would the "I don't want to waste my time improving myself" people want to ruin a bit challenging content on dedicated players who actually spent time improving their builds, healing, tanking and damage output. In that case, Veteran difficulty is not designed for you my dear friend.

Wolfkeks

I mean, i would be happy if MoL would stop crashing every time we're trying it ^^'

Mureel

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

There's your answer. You know how many runs at VMOL we've done? A boatload more than a dozen.

Destruent

Mureel wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

There's your answer. You know how many runs at VMOL we've done? A boatload more than a dozen.

Do you really think, those who beat vMoL didn't wipe for weeks on those bosses and maybe adds? It's finally content which is more about mechanics than DPS and people are now complaining that they need to learn how to play them.
Step 2 will now be: Content gets nerfed so it is the usual stack and burn festival
Step 3: Bad players now complain that you need super high-dps to burn all those bosses and therefore they cannot beat it.

See the problem? Don't start with step one, but pls learn to play this kind of content or just don't engage.

anitajoneb17_ESO

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

Alcast

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

jknight201

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

A few examples I've been through on EU :

- Leader thinks he speaks english but what he speaks is actually some sort of curious sounds and non-existing words put together with a strange accent from the moon ;
- Leader speaks continously and throws important directions in the middle of non-important chit-chat
- Leader doesn't ensure that everyone in the group understands english
- People in the group don't say that they don't understand english, for fear of being kicked. Also, they think they can understand everything by themselves just by following visuals.
- People keep chatting / joking about anything and everything and raid leader doesn't tell them to please stfu. Some people (like me) need silence to focus and understand.
- Many raid leaders tell people "what to do" but don't explain the actual mechanics (why people have to do what they have to do)
- etc.

Summary : a good raid leader is a VERY RARE jewel, raid leading is very hard. It's not enough to be a good player to be a good leader. That's one of the big hurdles that prevents otherwise good groups to complete hard content.

That said, in my "intermediate" case, what prevents me (and my guild) from achieving those trials isn't lack of understanding mechanics. It's a lack of DPS.

If ZOS insists on many encounters involving an enrage phase or any other DPS-check, please give us training dummies to practice our rotations.

you only need to sustain a [constant] of 14k dps for 8 dd in ver maw. but you have to do this while following mechanics. when you don't have to you can run 50k dps, (it helps, a ton), people can't just be running around the room or dying because they failed the mechanics. This is where alot of people fail the dps checks. Not becai]use they can't pull the numbers shey need to, but because they aren't

14k dps is achievab;e with every single player in the game, (unless you're missing hands/fingers)

I have to disagree. I've been in several groups that couldn't make it past the first boss and they were doing over 14K. Not the usual 25K with all the cleansing and avoiding cats and such but not 8K either. And we wiped many, many times to the pillar phase dps check mechanic. We're estimating at least 25K on the boss to get through that fight. And that is NOT what most players in this game do. Not saying they can't; simply that they don't.

And I do agree with all the frustrations of the previous poster. The groups I'm talking about don't have the idle chit-chat during the fight, people are listening and everyone understands (and follows) the mechanics. Are we perfect? No. But we aren't a pug group that has *that guy* running around causing a group wipe.

jknight201

Destruent wrote: »

Seems like people mostly agree, that we need more medium difficulty content ingame and not only extremely easy and really hard content
Lets just hope, ZOS is listening to us....

I sure hope so but looking at how they rescaled at least HRC ... I'm more than a little concerned.

Destruent

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

A few examples I've been through on EU :

- Leader thinks he speaks english but what he speaks is actually some sort of curious sounds and non-existing words put together with a strange accent from the moon ;
- Leader speaks continously and throws important directions in the middle of non-important chit-chat
- Leader doesn't ensure that everyone in the group understands english
- People in the group don't say that they don't understand english, for fear of being kicked. Also, they think they can understand everything by themselves just by following visuals.
- People keep chatting / joking about anything and everything and raid leader doesn't tell them to please stfu. Some people (like me) need silence to focus and understand.
- Many raid leaders tell people "what to do" but don't explain the actual mechanics (why people have to do what they have to do)
- etc.

Summary : a good raid leader is a VERY RARE jewel, raid leading is very hard. It's not enough to be a good player to be a good leader. That's one of the big hurdles that prevents otherwise good groups to complete hard content.

That said, in my "intermediate" case, what prevents me (and my guild) from achieving those trials isn't lack of understanding mechanics. It's a lack of DPS.

If ZOS insists on many encounters involving an enrage phase or any other DPS-check, please give us training dummies to practice our rotations.

you only need to sustain a [constant] of 14k dps for 8 dd in ver maw. but you have to do this while following mechanics. when you don't have to you can run 50k dps, (it helps, a ton), people can't just be running around the room or dying because they failed the mechanics. This is where alot of people fail the dps checks. Not becai]use they can't pull the numbers shey need to, but because they aren't

14k dps is achievab;e with every single player in the game, (unless you're missing hands/fingers)

I have to disagree. I've been in several groups that couldn't make it past the first boss and they were doing over 14K. Not the usual 25K with all the cleansing and avoiding cats and such but not 8K either. And we wiped many, many times to the pillar phase dps check mechanic. We're estimating at least 25K on the boss to get through that fight. And that is NOT what most players in this game do. Not saying they can't; simply that they don't.

And I do agree with all the frustrations of the previous poster. The groups I'm talking about don't have the idle chit-chat during the fight, people are listening and everyone understands (and follows) the mechanics. Are we perfect? No. But we aren't a pug group that has *that guy* running around causing a group wipe.

I think you just forget some things:
- FTC sometimes reset when cleansing/rezzing/hiding
- DPS on adds doesn't dmg the boss but boosts your own dps

Iirc dps check is a bit above 14k but lower than 20k.

jknight201

Destruent wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

There's your answer. You know how many runs at VMOL we've done? A boatload more than a dozen.

Do you really think, those who beat vMoL didn't wipe for weeks on those bosses and maybe adds? It's finally content which is more about mechanics than DPS and people are now complaining that they need to learn how to play them.
Step 2 will now be: Content gets nerfed so it is the usual stack and burn festival
Step 3: Bad players now complain that you need super high-dps to burn all those bosses and therefore they cannot beat it.

See the problem? Don't start with step one, but pls learn to play this kind of content or just don't engage.

Same here. We've done a boatload more than a dozen. I don't think anyone should expect to be able to beat difficult content without a lot of practice. My problem with vMOL is that with those dozen runs, the progress forward has stopped. We're not getting the boss down any further and we're improving our game as we go and working better with the mechanics each time. IMHO what's killing us is not the mechanics, it's the group average dps - and while we're not an elite group we're not average players either.

Nobody is saying the content should be easy, but it should be doable. And there should be a progression from normal to veteran to veteran hard mode. Right now neither of those is true for the rebalanced trials (can't speak to the new vAA as I haven't seen that yet).

Joy_Division

Yeah, another nerf thread.

The kids who grew up during an era when they got participation trophies for Little League baseball have now grown up and want the same for end-game content in MMOs.

jknight201

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

The first boss of vAA can be solo'd on the PTS. We had this discussion before, don't ask for nerfs, simply improve your game play.

Destruent

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

There's your answer. You know how many runs at VMOL we've done? A boatload more than a dozen.

Do you really think, those who beat vMoL didn't wipe for weeks on those bosses and maybe adds? It's finally content which is more about mechanics than DPS and people are now complaining that they need to learn how to play them.
Step 2 will now be: Content gets nerfed so it is the usual stack and burn festival
Step 3: Bad players now complain that you need super high-dps to burn all those bosses and therefore they cannot beat it.

See the problem? Don't start with step one, but pls learn to play this kind of content or just don't engage.

Same here. We've done a boatload more than a dozen. I don't think anyone should expect to be able to beat difficult content without a lot of practice. My problem with vMOL is that with those dozen runs, the progress forward has stopped. We're not getting the boss down any further and we're improving our game as we go and working better with the mechanics each time. IMHO what's killing us is not the mechanics, it's the group average dps - and while we're not an elite group we're not average players either.

Nobody is saying the content should be easy, but it should be doable. And there should be a progression from normal to veteran to veteran hard mode. Right now neither of those is true for the rebalanced trials (can't speak to the new vAA as I haven't seen that yet).

So what prevents you from improving your DPS? Maybe check your support? Warhorns, combat prayer, 5pc aether, SPC and such? Maybe check the builds of your teammates and so on...blaming the content is just lazy.

jknight201

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

The first boss of vAA can be solo'd on the PTS. We had this discussion before, don't ask for nerfs, simply improve your game play.

I haven't had a chance to try vAA on the PTS yet. It wouldn't surprise me as AA is the easiest of the trials. If it's anything like HRC, the bulk of the trial is unchanged and the last boss is insanely hard maybe? I don't know - haven't tried it yet.

Not asking for nerfs, asking for play balance so we can have something harder than normal but not something that can only be finished by the 0.0001% people. And sorry but improving my game play 5-10% won't get a vMOL clear. Yes, it is that unbalanced. You want your content that's impossibly hard to finish? Great, it's called veteran hard mode.

jknight201

Destruent wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Mureel wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

I didn't say it was impossible, just that I have been in many groups on vSO and not a single one could get past the Manticora.

Manti isn't a DPS race. It requires strategy: with the right strategy, it's actually very easy even if your DPS is mediocre. With the wrong strategy, it's a trainwreck even if you have the highest DPS in the world. And it requires a reasonable amount of mechanical awareness.

The thing about trials is that, yes, good DPS is nice, but DPS doesn't mean squat if you don't have a good strategy and/or don't deal with the mechanics properly.

The manti is also about a random number generator. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the main tank. Group wipe because the portal was placed on the off-group. Group wipe because a couple people lagged out and couldn't block the AOE. Group wipe because the off-tank couldn't get to the portal in time. Group wipe because a healer couldn't get to the portal in time. It goes on and on.

It's the same in HRC HM, actually. I agree if you know the mechanics it's not terribly difficult but most people don't want to try two dozen times before everything lines up and they can get past the boss.

There's your answer. You know how many runs at VMOL we've done? A boatload more than a dozen.

Do you really think, those who beat vMoL didn't wipe for weeks on those bosses and maybe adds? It's finally content which is more about mechanics than DPS and people are now complaining that they need to learn how to play them.
Step 2 will now be: Content gets nerfed so it is the usual stack and burn festival
Step 3: Bad players now complain that you need super high-dps to burn all those bosses and therefore they cannot beat it.

See the problem? Don't start with step one, but pls learn to play this kind of content or just don't engage.

Same here. We've done a boatload more than a dozen. I don't think anyone should expect to be able to beat difficult content without a lot of practice. My problem with vMOL is that with those dozen runs, the progress forward has stopped. We're not getting the boss down any further and we're improving our game as we go and working better with the mechanics each time. IMHO what's killing us is not the mechanics, it's the group average dps - and while we're not an elite group we're not average players either.

Nobody is saying the content should be easy, but it should be doable. And there should be a progression from normal to veteran to veteran hard mode. Right now neither of those is true for the rebalanced trials (can't speak to the new vAA as I haven't seen that yet).

So what prevents you from improving your DPS? Maybe check your support? Warhorns, combat prayer, 5pc aether, SPC and such? Maybe check the builds of your teammates and so on...blaming the content is just lazy.

Been there, done that. Still not enough. If our group was a bunch of pugs who didn't follow mechanics, did 10K dps, got killed all the time to mechanics, etc. then I'd say yeah, we need to improve. When maybe 20 people out of everyone who plays on the NA server can finish the content then I'm sorry but it *is* the content.

Zos' idea of balance is 80% of players can complete normal mode, 0.0001% can complete veteran mode and 0% can complete veteran hard mode. Yes, they are that out of touch with their game. Blame it on all the good players leaving, whatever. That's the reality. It should be 80% can complete normal, 15% can complete veteran and 1% can complete vet HM.

Destruent

jknight201 wrote: »

Been there, done that. Still not enough. If our group was a bunch of pugs who didn't follow mechanics, did 10K dps, got killed all the time to mechanics, etc. then I'd say yeah, we need to improve. When maybe 20 people out of everyone who plays on the NA server can finish the content then I'm sorry but it *is* the content.

Zos' idea of balance is 80% of players can complete normal mode, 0.0001% can complete veteran mode and 0% can complete veteran hard mode. Yes, they are that out of touch with their game. Blame it on all the good players leaving, whatever. That's the reality. It should be 80% can complete normal, 15% can complete veteran and 1% can complete vet HM.

1. in a game where 40k+ DPS is possible and a dungeon requires less than 50% of that, i think the problem is not the dungeon (when talking about endgame).
2. HM is impossible due to constant crashes and disconnects. As soon as guilds can practice HM without crashing all the time it will be cleared.

Foxic

jknight201 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

The first boss of vAA can be solo'd on the PTS. We had this discussion before, don't ask for nerfs, simply improve your game play.

I haven't had a chance to try vAA on the PTS yet. It wouldn't surprise me as AA is the easiest of the trials. If it's anything like HRC, the bulk of the trial is unchanged and the last boss is insanely hard maybe? I don't know - haven't tried it yet.

Not asking for nerfs, asking for play balance so we can have something harder than normal but not something that can only be finished by the 0.0001% people. And sorry but improving my game play 5-10% won't get a vMOL clear. Yes, it is that unbalanced. You want your content that's impossibly hard to finish? Great, it's called veteran hard mode.

Vso,vaa,and vhrc are intermediate trials imo. I beat the storm atro with a group of 3. The next night we put together a very random group and beat every boss on our first attempt except the mage hardmode but we were able to get her to 35%. I'm sure non hardmode we would have beat it easy

LadyNalcarya

jknight201 wrote: »

Been there, done that. Still not enough. If our group was a bunch of pugs who didn't follow mechanics, did 10K dps, got killed all the time to mechanics, etc. then I'd say yeah, we need to improve. When maybe 20 people out of everyone who plays on the NA server can finish the content then I'm sorry but it *is* the content.

Zos' idea of balance is 80% of players can complete normal mode, 0.0001% can complete veteran mode and 0% can complete veteran hard mode. Yes, they are that out of touch with their game. Blame it on all the good players leaving, whatever. That's the reality. It should be 80% can complete normal, 15% can complete veteran and 1% can complete vet HM.

Thats because people are used to ignoring all the mechanics. And it happened because of constant nerfs and power creep.
Zos' strategy of nerfing everything is not viable at all. Simply because its not possible to nerf everything while keeping some kind of mechanics. Well, of course, they can convert the game to a visual novel type thingy and replace all fights with a giant "win" button in a middle of the screen, but even then there will be someone who would find it too complicated. Also, the more nerfs we have, the lazier people become, and nMoL and nSO pugs clearly show it. Why pay attention to pinions/auras/portals/whatever if they can just rush in and kill everything?
A good game encourages people to play by its rules, not to skip them. The most well-known games in the world, like chess for example, have strict rules, but people play them for ages (literally lol).

hedna123b14_ESO

jknight201 wrote: »

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

The first boss of vAA can be solo'd on the PTS. We had this discussion before, don't ask for nerfs, simply improve your game play.

I haven't had a chance to try vAA on the PTS yet. It wouldn't surprise me as AA is the easiest of the trials. If it's anything like HRC, the bulk of the trial is unchanged and the last boss is insanely hard maybe? I don't know - haven't tried it yet.

Not asking for nerfs, asking for play balance so we can have something harder than normal but not something that can only be finished by the 0.0001% people. And sorry but improving my game play 5-10% won't get a vMOL clear. Yes, it is that unbalanced. You want your content that's impossibly hard to finish? Great, it's called veteran hard mode.

HRC and AA are both easy now and I can't imagine them being hard when they are updated. Like vSO, all of the trials are easy with the exception of vMoL which takes weeks to master, but once mastered is also not bad. Improving your 15k dps by 5-10% is indeed not going to get you a vMoL clear, you need to double it to be considered a good player. As I've shownever you using I fervor gear to yours and using the same skills you have access to it is possible to achieve these numbers. So really the only issue lies with whether you're willing to put in the work to get the same results and if you are not then you should not get to raid in veteran mode.

Ep1kMalware

jknight201 wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

I can say with absolute certainty that 9/10 progression stops because of the people in the trial, not the trial itself. if tou tell your group to avoid the blue balls on first boss vet maw hands down you will notice what appears to he half your grouo running to them on purpose.

A few examples I've been through on EU :

- Leader thinks he speaks english but what he speaks is actually some sort of curious sounds and non-existing words put together with a strange accent from the moon ;
- Leader speaks continously and throws important directions in the middle of non-important chit-chat
- Leader doesn't ensure that everyone in the group understands english
- People in the group don't say that they don't understand english, for fear of being kicked. Also, they think they can understand everything by themselves just by following visuals.
- People keep chatting / joking about anything and everything and raid leader doesn't tell them to please stfu. Some people (like me) need silence to focus and understand.
- Many raid leaders tell people "what to do" but don't explain the actual mechanics (why people have to do what they have to do)
- etc.

Summary : a good raid leader is a VERY RARE jewel, raid leading is very hard. It's not enough to be a good player to be a good leader. That's one of the big hurdles that prevents otherwise good groups to complete hard content.

That said, in my "intermediate" case, what prevents me (and my guild) from achieving those trials isn't lack of understanding mechanics. It's a lack of DPS.

If ZOS insists on many encounters involving an enrage phase or any other DPS-check, please give us training dummies to practice our rotations.

you only need to sustain a [constant] of 14k dps for 8 dd in ver maw. but you have to do this while following mechanics. when you don't have to you can run 50k dps, (it helps, a ton), people can't just be running around the room or dying because they failed the mechanics. This is where alot of people fail the dps checks. Not becai]use they can't pull the numbers shey need to, but because they aren't

14k dps is achievab;e with every single player in the game, (unless you're missing hands/fingers)

I have to disagree. I've been in several groups that couldn't make it past the first boss and they were doing over 14K. Not the usual 25K with all the cleansing and avoiding cats and such but not 8K either. And we wiped many, many times to the pillar phase dps check mechanic. We're estimating at least 25K on the boss to get through that fight. And that is NOT what most players in this game do. Not saying they can't; simply that they don't.

And I do agree with all the frustrations of the previous poster. The groups I'm talking about don't have the idle chit-chat during the fight, people are listening and everyone understands (and follows) the mechanics. Are we perfect? No. But we aren't a pug group that has *that guy* running around causing a group wipe.

of course 25k dps wasnt enough if you whiped. you have to pull a solid minumum of 14k dps for 8 minutes while following the mechanics. if you pull tripple that and last 1 minute your dps isnt failing, your team is failing to follow mechanics.

Ep1kMalware

jknight201 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

If others can do it and you can not, then it is a LEARN TO *** PLAY ISSUE.
I do gladly guide people towards getting better, but in the end it is still the player itself that needs to do it.....

Yes, @Alcast , I know you're one of the top players who really do a lot to help the community getting better via excellent guides and advice, and you're never condescending.

But... some people , many people in fact, want to get better, do their research, get their gear, and take the time to practice. And still they don't get good. At best they get average. Sometimes they simply remain bad. There are physical constraints that you can't bypass. Eye-hand coordination or reaction time, for instance, are neurological factors, and no training whatsoever will let you change that. At best you'll find half-working workarounds.
We're not all equals.

That said, again, I'm not saying there shouldn't be very hard content for excellent players. I'm saying there should be something for "intermediate" players. And also, that the lack of intermediate content prevents people from learning. Where can you practice to get better right now in the game ??? Every single encounter or boss is either a 1-2 shot mob, 20 second fight at best... or a highly difficult HP-sack.

I do understand that yes, also not everyone has the time to practice as much as others do.

Yet I do hope vAA and vHRC will give us this "intermediate" level. I do know atm its either super easy or completely insanity modes. There is no thing in between...

This is why people need to go play on the PTS and see what's coming. It looks to me like it's nMOL/vMOL all over again in terms of a too-easy normal mode and a too-hard vet mode. Presumably with an impossible vet hard mode (we didn't try that).

go run the trials now. because these are the mechanics you face on vet mode.

Shadesofkin

Honestly, the jump between Vet and Normal sanctum is nothing in comparison to Vet and normal Maw. If you can't complete Vet Sanctum, its your build and your group that is the problem.

I don't mean that as a stupid L2P post, but rather as a "take a look at what's going wrong, it's very likely not the trial, but the groups ability to perform together and peoples gear set ups."

Ep1kMalware

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Honestly, the jump between Vet and Normal sanctum is nothing in comparison to Vet and normal Maw. If you can't complete Vet Sanctum, its your build and your group that is the problem.

I don't mean that as a stupid L2P post, but rather as a "take a look at what's going wrong, it's very likely not the trial, but the groups ability to perform together and peoples gear set ups."

probably jnot so much gear but what skilla they're using. some of the stuff I see..

Shadesofkin

Ep1kMalware wrote: »

Shadesofkin wrote: »

Honestly, the jump between Vet and Normal sanctum is nothing in comparison to Vet and normal Maw. If you can't complete Vet Sanctum, its your build and your group that is the problem.

I don't mean that as a stupid L2P post, but rather as a "take a look at what's going wrong, it's very likely not the trial, but the groups ability to perform together and peoples gear set ups."

probably jnot so much gear but what skilla they're using. some of the stuff I see..

Indeed, the number of mDKs I've seen throw down Spiked Armor during a boss fight is just silly.

Ep1kMalware

jknight201 wrote: »

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Christ everyone stop quoting the 1st post. Rakes forever to scrolls down.

VMoL isn't that hard imo it's just very very boring and people switch off. That fight before the 2nd boss it's just a long slug fest. Wave after wave and it's dull.

Vet sanctum really threw us. Smashed normal and went back to vet...The Mantikora is a different animal all together. Old mechanics too. ZOS it wasn't these mechanics that threw a lot of people it was the popcorn and suckerpunch instakill. Ozara is a lot lot tankier but a good strategy will see you through it. You need 2 tanks for this fight ideally.

Last boss. ..Meh. ..stack and burn as always. Scream the mantikora comes out burn it down and stack back up.

AA though will be interesting. Tanking 5 axes is already very very hard. Adding 200% more damage into it I'm. Not sure how hard mode will work.

Hel Ra. .well zerg bomb all the adds ads, and hope for no nasty changes with the bosses I don't see any issues with it. Last boss is just a dps race. Once he loses the plot and gets angry it may get hard.

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

lololol this is so much qq. you know how to beat hm helra? block. how you know when to block? you're standing in red. I can't even xD haha damn.

manticora is hard? why does the 3 second wind up for it's overcharge jot clue you in? how about the 2 popcorn phases, then red aoe you block, oops here comes a portal! if your raid leader can't recall the mechanics, then k=maybe the huge ass ghost floating around will clue you in.

this is 100% qq from bad playing. and nothing else.

edit:

most players are incredibly dumb with mehanics and refuse to learn them, no matter how a=simple they are. Planar inhibitor anybody?

this is why you have a good raid leader that tells you exactly where to stand, exactly when to ,move forward, exactly when to block, and kicks you from the group when you talk more than you listen.

Waseem

weak players dont play with mediocore or elite players
mediocore dont play with elite or weak
elite dont play with weak or mediocore
nobody plays with anybody outside of his league
pugs stick with normal mode forever, and keep dying at vet mode first stage until they're out of soul gems
mediocore spend 1-2 hours in trial
elites do trial in 15 minutes and try to do it in 14minutes 59 seconds forever after

ZOS see veteran mode not being handled well by players ( the rate of people who successfully complete the content is increasing extremely slow) so they nerf content
weak may see opportunity but still unable to finish the content
mediocore save 10-15 minutes of their life
elite rage and scream
**referring to trials veteran difficulty.**
nobody helps nobody
nobody cares about nobody
and in the end, every "league" blames the "other league"

if players dont play together randomly more often nobody will enjoy anything, either by inability to enjoy the whole content while others sick out of doing it 20 times a day

go on leagues.. keep making fun out of the other leagues..
TROLL4WIN

Ep1kMalware

Waseem wrote: »

weak players dont play with mediocore or elite players
mediocore dont play with elite or weak
elite dont play with weak or mediocore
nobody plays with anybody outside of his league
pugs stick with normal mode forever, and keep dying at vet mode first stage until they're out of soul gems
mediocore spend 1-2 hours in trial
elites do trial in 15 minutes and try to do it in 14minutes 59 seconds forever after

ZOS see veteran mode not being handled well by players ( the rate of people who successfully complete the content is increasing extremely slow) so they nerf content
weak may see opportunity but still unable to finish the content
mediocore save 10-15 minutes of their life
elite rage and scream
**referring to trials veteran difficulty.**
nobody helps nobody
nobody cares about nobody
and in the end, every "league" blames the "other league"

if players dont play together randomly more often nobody will enjoy anything, either by inability to enjoy the whole content while others sick out of doing it 20 times a day

go on leagues.. keep making fun out of the other leagues..
TROLL4WIN

i"m not sure, weak/mediocre players get help when they ask for it. many just argue and don't listen. Many 'elites' are willing to help.

this is how you become 'elite' players. but not everyone wants to improve. That's fine, there's content for them. wanting to drag everyone else into that playstyle is another issue entirely.

Foxic

Waseem wrote: »

weak players dont play with mediocore or elite players
mediocore dont play with elite or weak
elite dont play with weak or mediocore
nobody plays with anybody outside of his league
pugs stick with normal mode forever, and keep dying at vet mode first stage until they're out of soul gems
mediocore spend 1-2 hours in trial
elites do trial in 15 minutes and try to do it in 14minutes 59 seconds forever after

ZOS see veteran mode not being handled well by players ( the rate of people who successfully complete the content is increasing extremely slow) so they nerf content
weak may see opportunity but still unable to finish the content
mediocore save 10-15 minutes of their life
elite rage and scream
**referring to trials veteran difficulty.**
nobody helps nobody
nobody cares about nobody
and in the end, every "league" blames the "other league"

if players dont play together randomly more often nobody will enjoy anything, either by inability to enjoy the whole content while others sick out of doing it 20 times a day

go on leagues.. keep making fun out of the other leagues..
TROLL4WIN

Noone starts out elite. I consider myself in that bracket, but before i got there i was a pure pvper and had no idea how to do any pve. I joined a casual guild so i could learn pve without anyone treating me like an idiot, from there i worked my way up until i was one of the best in that guild then i used connections i had formed to work my way into a larger more pve focused guild and rinse and repeat until a few months later i found myself on one of the top na trial teams.

Now i try and help newer players get into end game pve but most of them just argue and or give up after not being able to complete something after an hour of trying. I fully understand that not everyone has the same time to put into the game, but im sick of the idea that the "elite" players are all toxic and do not want to help the community. Its the elites that makes all of the builds and guides for the average player to use to get better.