Thoughts on difficulty level of new trials (vSO, MOL and soon vHRC and vAA)

jknight201 · July 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Christ everyone stop quoting the 1st post. Rakes forever to scrolls down.

VMoL isn't that hard imo it's just very very boring and people switch off. That fight before the 2nd boss it's just a long slug fest. Wave after wave and it's dull.

Vet sanctum really threw us. Smashed normal and went back to vet...The Mantikora is a different animal all together. Old mechanics too. ZOS it wasn't these mechanics that threw a lot of people it was the popcorn and suckerpunch instakill. Ozara is a lot lot tankier but a good strategy will see you through it. You need 2 tanks for this fight ideally.

Last boss. ..Meh. ..stack and burn as always. Scream the mantikora comes out burn it down and stack back up.

AA though will be interesting. Tanking 5 axes is already very very hard. Adding 200% more damage into it I'm. Not sure how hard mode will work.

Hel Ra. .well zerg bomb all the adds ads, and hope for no nasty changes with the bosses I don't see any issues with it. Last boss is just a dps race. Once he loses the plot and gets angry it may get hard.

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

Destruent · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

If you think, helRa-HM has a big addpull where you need to time all your ultimates you just don't know the mechanic of this fight. You can avoide this addpull completely if you don't like it.

Also the biggest problem is not that vetmodes are too hard, they are an ok-challenge. Normal modes are too easy, people think they are good if they can complete normal mode and face a big increase in difficulty when they engage vet-mode.
But it seems like ZOS doesn't want to change that. Normal mode is supposed to be completable without effort, vet-mode should be a challenge (more or less) for organized and experienced groups.

And regarding your DPS-Race whining, DPS-requirements are lower than you expect it. It's more about mechanics/tactics in all those fights. Learn and practice the mechanics and find a good tactic for it and you'll be succesfull. You don't need that ultra-high-DPS.
Between 15k and 20k from all DDs is enough....and yes, you can expect that for endgame-content when top-groups have average-dps of 35k...40k or even more.

code65536 · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

I wouldn't say that the fight is easy - like I said, I've been in many, many groups that can't make it past the manti. Does that mean they are bad? No, it just means that there is a significant RNG component to the fight.

Yes, there is RNG on that fight, but as I explained, the RNG shouldn't be a problem if you have the right strategy that takes the RNG into account. There is RNG, but RNG definitely should not be wiping you. If it is, then you need to refine your strategy and your execution of that strategy.

lolo_01b16_ESO · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

Averya_Teira · July 2016

There needs to be difficult content, that gives you something to work towards.

You think (sorry for the example) many people complete Mythic raids in WoW before they nerf them to the ground after a few months ? Think à large portion of GW2 players got into really high fractal tiers ?

Every MMO has difficult content that only a fraction of the pop completes. It serves a purpose of bringing "Hardcore" players into the game.

Casual players (which I am part of btw) pay the bills, Hardcore keep the game running with blogs, addons, etc.

fosokles · July 2016

I think it's fine how it is now, but incase ZOS is about to make some changes, let's please NOT nerf anything in general. It would be much better to make some intermediate difficulty instead of making challenging content easier.

Alcast · July 2016

I really would love to see the difficulty kinda like this:

Easy > vAA
Medium > vHRC, vDSA
Hard > vSO, vMoL

The reason why I would love to see vAA and vHRC, vDSA in that state is so people could kind of practice. and there would be a LEARNING CURVE, which is missing atm.

At the moment there is only easymode stuff and then you get into vSO, vMoL and get your butt kicked so hard you would want to deinstall your game

Destruent · July 2016

Let's see how hard vAA and vHRC will be on live-server. But i think it will be something similar to the difficulty you suggested @Alcast . But i wouldn't be surprised if ZOS fuckes up difficulty completely

DRXHarbinger · July 2016

Alcast wrote: »

I really would love to see the difficulty kinda like this:

Easy > vAA
Medium > vHRC, vDSA
Hard > vSO, vMoL

The reason why I would love to see vAA and vHRC, vDSA in that state is so people could kind of practice. and there would be a LEARNING CURVE, which is missing atm.

At the moment there is only easymode stuff and then you get into vSO, vMoL and get your butt kicked so hard you would want to deinstall your game

It's a good idea. Tanking VSO was pretty hard. The first clear we did was take in my blazing shield templar build and just become a bouncing punch bag for it lol. It was all I could figure out what to do at the start. Health bar just pinged up and down relentlessly. That first fight could do with some adjustments to the portal that opens though. If all the healers end up being sucked in you're doomed. Granted they should separate but it can happen to all of us. ZOS idea atm is to just be unforgiving in hard content to the extreme. It just seems to be get it perfect and it's fine. One mistake and it's wipe.

Also who after going in normal Sanctum and then vet was even expecting the portal on the first place?

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

DRXHarbinger · July 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

The bigger question is...how long can you pull 30k for... 30s against bloodspawn is nothing to be proud of. Can you pull it against Ozara when people are pinned, snared by those annoying ads she spawns, turning your back on the serpent to kill the Lamia and Mantikora and then running for a pink bubble...... whilst magika dumping...true fights don't have these numbers.

Destruent · July 2016

It just depends on your point of view....we are talking about endgame content, so we have to consider doing endgame-dps. And endgame-wise 35k is nothing special and 20k is low. If we talk about randomdungeons or dailys 20k is ok (or even more than ok) and 35k is really good.

Foxic · July 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

You can't go around telling people that anything over 20K is "very good" because then when they start to play with an actual raid group they'll be laughed at for thinking they have high dps. It doesn't matter how much of the population can reach high dps, if you want to beat the hardest content in the game you should try to be the best.

GreenhaloX · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

@Wrobel

My problem is with the veteran versions. There is a *huge* increase in difficulty from normal to veteran mode. Normal SO is a complete walk-in-the-park but vSO is very challenging. Most experienced groups can't complete it, while the elite groups seem to have little problem. Normal MOL is fairly easy for an experienced group, but in vMOL the same experienced groups can't get past the first boss, or rarely the second. There are only a few elite groups that have been able to even complete vMOL.

Hence they are labeled as elites.. the 1 percenters, or less than that, if you would. I'm currently in the 420 CP and trying to get to 501 as quick as it allows me. So, I haven't done any vet trials or dungeon yet. I'm still messing to complete all the normal ones. Heck, I'm still dying some times in the normal dungeons and nMA. Of course, I'm still trying to boost my output damages and damage absorbing abilities. It's also more difficult with PS4 since there is no group finder. So, I have to rely on randomized dungeon finder when there's a spot open for me. It's a hit and miss to be in a group that does well or actually work together. A lot of times, I fall in with much lower ranking players, which is fine when everybody sticks together to end, instead of dropping out one by one when we seem to have difficulty with the first batch of enemies or boss or someone not seemingly holding his or her weight and the leader kicks that player out, which leaves only 3 to do the whole thing.

So yes, I'm far from being able to tackle any vet mode or near even able to get any of those flawless conqueror or stormproof achievements. I'm sure I would be more confident to do so when I'm in the higher 400 CP bracket and am able to be in a group that works well together. So, in the meantime, from what you all are saying about the difficulties from the vet levels.. that is something I'm not really looking forward to. Yikes!

Destruent · July 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

The bigger question is...how long can you pull 30k for... 30s against bloodspawn is nothing to be proud of. Can you pull it against Ozara when people are pinned, snared by those annoying ads she spawns, turning your back on the serpent to kill the Lamia and Mantikora and then running for a pink bubble...... whilst magika dumping...true fights don't have these numbers.

lol, they do have. with enough practice and a good group 30k + are doable on all trial encounters. It also depends on your tactic...but in the end you should find the tactic, which rovides the fastest kill, isn't it?

Foxic · July 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

The bigger question is...how long can you pull 30k for... 30s against bloodspawn is nothing to be proud of. Can you pull it against Ozara when people are pinned, snared by those annoying ads she spawns, turning your back on the serpent to kill the Lamia and Mantikora and then running for a pink bubble...... whilst magika dumping...true fights don't have these numbers.

There are people pulling over 50K single target on vet manti. Ozara is child's play

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

It just depends on your point of view....we are talking about endgame content, so we have to consider doing endgame-dps. And endgame-wise 35k is nothing special and 20k is low. If we talk about randomdungeons or dailys 20k is ok (or even more than ok) and 35k is really good.

I agree on that.
But most people I hear expressing this kind of comments do it purposedly in front of "normal" people pulling 12-15K, knowing they will never fact-check it. They're far more careful with really good players.

Anyway, back to topic, it raises (once again) the question as to whom the newly redesigned or new trials should target. I don't think they should be for the top 1% only. Currently VetSO and VetMOL are too difficult - and I assume new versions of VetAA and VetHRC and VetDSA will be, too.
Normal versions on the other hand are/will be roflstomp easy.

This problem was already discussed with VetICP, VetWGT and VetMSA.

In my opinion Normal versions should be for the 50% "lower" players (very casual, like it easy, or levelling/learning), and Vet versions should be for the 49% next "tier" of players. Remaining 1% "elite" have the leaderboards to compete for.
As it is now, it's 90% of players who are prevented from even completing those instances. I don't think it's clever design.

Please note that I'm not asking for nerfs. I'm simply dubitative at the general design in terms of difficulty.

GreenhaloX · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

And regarding your DPS-Race whining, DPS-requirements are lower than you expect it. It's more about mechanics/tactics in all those fights. Learn and practice the mechanics and find a good tactic for it and you'll be succesfull. You don't need that ultra-high-DPS.
Between 15k and 20k from all DDs is enough....and yes, you can expect that for endgame-content when top-groups have average-dps of 35k...40k or even more.

40K or even 50K or more.. now that's good, if you're saying that is sustainable. What the heck kind of weapons these folks have?! Sheesh.. I have gold greatsword with 3200 weapon damage and a lots of CPs into my increase damages slot, but the most I've seen my character put out was only in the lower 20K and that's not charging in stealth for an attack from behind. From stealth, I'm almost at 40K.. but again, that is in stealth and charging the attack from behind. Man.. no wonder how so many 501 dudes and dudettes are able to take out the world bosses more quickly.

Foxic · July 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

And regarding your DPS-Race whining, DPS-requirements are lower than you expect it. It's more about mechanics/tactics in all those fights. Learn and practice the mechanics and find a good tactic for it and you'll be succesfull. You don't need that ultra-high-DPS.
Between 15k and 20k from all DDs is enough....and yes, you can expect that for endgame-content when top-groups have average-dps of 35k...40k or even more.

40K or even 50K or more.. now that's good, if you're saying that is sustainable. What the heck kind of weapons these folks have?! Sheesh.. I have gold greatsword with 3200 weapon damage and a lots of CPs into my increase damages slot, but the most I've seen my character put out was only in the lower 20K and that's not charging in stealth for an attack from behind. From stealth, I'm almost at 40K.. but again, that is in stealth and charging the attack from behind. Man.. no wonder how so many 501 dudes and dudettes are able to take out the world bosses more quickly.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=K9G3G3txKQs

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

GreenhaloX wrote: »

What the heck kind of weapons these folks have?! Sheesh.. I have gold greatsword with 3200 weapon damage and a lots of CPs into my increase damages slot, but the most I've seen my character put out was only in the lower 20K and that's not charging in stealth for an attack from behind.

Same here.
The explanation lies in two words : animation-cut, aka animation-cancel.

These people have the same min-maxed gear and build as you and me. They don't have a better situational awareness than you and me. They are not more team-working than you or me. But they have spent hours upon hours practicing a rotation and use of their fingers to save many significant milliseconds between each attack, allowing them in fine to attack 30-50% more often than you and me.
That's the difference.

(and also, they belong to really organised group where buffing/unbuffing abilities are coordinated : never missing, never wasted/duplicated. That makes a huge difference too).

While I like coordinated groups myself, for the rest I'm simply not willing to do the effort. I won't farm a dungeon 1000 more times to get a divines instead of the infused I already have. And I won't spend hours fighting mammoths or whatever like piano exercise to get the perfect animation cuts. (I would if we had training dummies though).

jknight201 · July 2016

lolo_01b16_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

While I'm glad you were able to complete all that content, the VAST majority of ESO players ... simply can't.

Sorry but vMOL *is* very hard. Maybe a couple dozen people in the whole game can complete it? And it's not hard? No, just no. People switch off because they can't even get past the first damage shield of the first boss and then they stop trying. If they can even get to the first boss.

vSO - great, take the hardest trial in the game, one in which 99%+ of players can't get past the first boss and ... make it even harder! With a bunch of insta-kill mechanics! Great job Zos. Same thing, the vast majority of even somewhat good players can't get past the Manti. Totally agree that normal SO is a joke it's so easy. vSO ... is a joke because it's so hard. Not difficult (which would imply good mechanics and good gameplay) just ... hard.

Hel Ra HM is another that most players can't get past. Combine a bunch of 1-shot insta-kills with a HUGE add pull you have to have everyone up for AND perfect timing on mits ... and then they go and make it even harder? Again, wtf is Zos thinking? 100M+ health?

AA HM is arguably the easiest of the trials, but add in the 3rd boss causing crashing for a LOT of players and suddenly it gets hard. Combine that with, again, an end-game that the majority of players can't finish and, yet again, what is Zos thinking?

You need less than 10k dps to get through the first shield in vMoL which every class can get by just spamming a single skill. Depending on your cp and gear you can probably even get that by using nothing but light and heavy attacks.

In your opinion what's the difference between hard and difficult? From what I see if you have good movement the fights are easy and just take a while to complete. If you have issues it's most likely because you either don't know what to do (then just ask for help, most experienced players are happy to help new people to learn how to beat trials) or you need to practise your movement.

Another example of you not knowing the proper tactic but only the way how people used to do it when they had enough dps to ignore the mechanics. You can destroy most of the gargoyles before they engage the fight, it just requires good positioning from every group member.

Crashing has nothing to do with difficulty. If you can't complete content because of crashes, then you should write a bug report to fix crashes and not argue about reducing the difficulty so you can comlete it even if half your group is offline. (btw it seems to be the case that if anyone in your group uses the "travel to player" option to enter a trial, crashes happen much more frequently)

I got a good laugh at your "you need 10K dps to get past the first vMOL boss shield phase". I'm sorry, but if you believe that then you haven't actually gotten to the first boss in vMOL. Or you haven't played with a group that does 10K dps. We have a group average DPS of 25K+ and it's enough only if everything goes perfectly and is questionable if it's enough to get past the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

The difference between normal and veteran? Nearly all the mechanics from veteran are disabled in normal (big mistake) - so every fight becomes stack-and-burn. In veteran mode everything has much higher health and does much higher damage - often insanely so.

And we know the proper tactics, but that won't save you in vMOL. It won't even let you get past the first boss, which *is* largely stack-and-burn. Same with AA hard mode. Same with vSO (with small exception for the outer and portal groups).

I've been with experienced players and we weren't able to complete some content because of RNG. Namely AA hard mode, HRC hard mode and vSO manti. Was it because one or two people weren't pulling their weight? Maybe, but all the players were good and sometimes it just happens that way. That is a big part of the problem.

jknight201 · July 2016

fosokles wrote: »

I think it's fine how it is now, but incase ZOS is about to make some changes, let's please NOT nerf anything in general. It would be much better to make some intermediate difficulty instead of making challenging content easier.

It's *not* fine how it is now. Normal is too easy and, worse, has most of the mechanics nerfed so players can't learn how to do the harder modes. I'm not saying normal mode should be made harder, but it should have the mechanics re-enabled so people can learn how to do with without beating their head against the veteran wall.

Veteran mode is too hard in that there is an ENORMOUS difficulty increase from normal to veteran mode. Just about any player in the game can complete normal modes with a group. Most experienced players can't complete vMOL or vSO. Not even past the first boss.

Veteran hard mode is literally a handful of people from the whole game. Catering to <20 people in a game is a HUGE waste of time, money and resources and just turns everyone off to the game. You know, the people who actually subscribe to and pay for the game.

jknight201 · July 2016

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

jknight201 wrote: »

OrphanHelgen wrote: »

We are'nt even elite players compared to the best one out there, who is able to pull above 50k on mantikora. Our players have around 35k dps. Even that is low ish. So if you say your players are around 20k, that seriously low and consider casual players where no serious group buffs or rotations are involved. Like I said, hard dungeons should be worked for to be completed. People with 20k dps dont work, they are lazy. Sry for hard words but its the truth.

I hate to tell you but 35K+ DPS is in the elite group. Most normal players are in the 10-12K range. 20K isn't seriously low for sorcs. It is low for the other classes tho. And 20K isn't lazy, again, it's just bad game design on Zos' part. Most players in the game pull 10-12K. Some pull 20K and only a few pull 35K+. Sorry for the hard words, but that is the real truth.

I hear that kind of "bragging in disguise" increasingly often, being here, in game chat or in various vocal chatrooms.
"Sorry you must be aware I haven't completed my new gear so I only pull 25K DPS"
"35K is low-ish"
etc.

These people know perfectly that anything above 20K DPS is rare and very good, and anything above 30K is 0.01% of the population (and not even consistently at that level).
It's just another way of telling the world how "good" they are themselves and to normal players how bad they are. All while pretending to be modest.

Makes me vomit.

The bigger question is...how long can you pull 30k for... 30s against bloodspawn is nothing to be proud of. Can you pull it against Ozara when people are pinned, snared by those annoying ads she spawns, turning your back on the serpent to kill the Lamia and Mantikora and then running for a pink bubble...... whilst magika dumping...true fights don't have these numbers.

Elite players can pull 50K+ dps against those bosses. While average players struggle to pull 10K. That's real and how far apart the two groups are. I agree that's why we need different difficulty levels between normal, vet and vet hard mode - but not the gigantic chasm that exists between normal and vet modes right now.

Destruent · July 2016

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

timidobserver · July 2016

You don't need to do the vet version. Just farm normal. You can get the same gear from normal just no yellows.

jknight201 · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

You would think but my good progression group can't get past the second damage shield. Or we wipe because of the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

I agree there has to be endgame content for endgame players. But I think Zos needs to scale it so there is a range from easy (for the majority of ESO players) to impossibly hard for the elite players. Again the problem is the HUGE jump from normal mode to veteran mode.

All the trials have RNG components. AA HM, for example, if you get meteors stacked followed by an atro drop - someone is going to die. If that's the healer, that's a problem. Then there's the mines. And at the execute phase, if you get meteored when rolling into the center - you die. That's pure RNG. HRC has RNG components as well - all the trials do. You use a strategy to minimize or avoid RNG, but it can't be completely avoided.

And I just looked on the NA server and only 51 people have completed vMOL. Ever. Sounds like a "few dozen" to me.

Destruent · July 2016

Problem is (atleast i think so) you mess up with cleanses, have to ress and therefore loose dps.
Meteor drop: there are positions where no meteor drops and you can avoid most damage by blocking. You can clear those mines in a right moment while blocking if this is neccessary without any risk. You can also use harness magicka or things like this to reduce inc-dmg even further. Why do you roll into the midle...just get near the center before boss drops to 20% and walk there as soon as neccessary, you can even stack the whole raid in the middle.
The only RNG in HRC is the warriors move which petrifies someone, but that's not that hard to handle.

on EU-PC there are 251 on vMoL rankings, vSO is full (80k+ is the lowest score)

But in the end i have to agree, the difference between vet and normal mode is too huge, pls buff normal mode.

Foxic · July 2016

jknight201 wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

You need less than 20k DPS per DD for first boss MoL. So you should be fine with your 25k+.

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
Maybe ask for advice how to do better, alll progress-players i've met are happy to share their experience and help others.
But i agree, normal modes (or: the whole game) doesn't prepare you for vet-modes, you have to push yourself to the limit in easy-dungeons to practice things needed in hardmode. This is bad design, but i don't think ZOS is going to change this.
Also for AA/HM and HRC-HM there is nearly no RNG involved.
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

You would think but my good progression group can't get past the second damage shield. Or we wipe because of the overall dps check with the pillar phase.

I agree there has to be endgame content for endgame players. But I think Zos needs to scale it so there is a range from easy (for the majority of ESO players) to impossibly hard for the elite players. Again the problem is the HUGE jump from normal mode to veteran mode.

All the trials have RNG components. AA HM, for example, if you get meteors stacked followed by an atro drop - someone is going to die. If that's the healer, that's a problem. Then there's the mines. And at the execute phase, if you get meteored when rolling into the center - you die. That's pure RNG. HRC has RNG components as well - all the trials do. You use a strategy to minimize or avoid RNG, but it can't be completely avoided.

And I just looked on the NA server and only 51 people have completed vMOL. Ever. Sounds like a "few dozen" to me.

I'm not trying to be mean, but how can you consider your group good if you can't beat the first boss of maw? My group cleared it on day 2 of the pts missing 3 of our core members

anitajoneb17_ESO · July 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Also there has to be Endgame-content for endgame-players. Why is it unacceptable, that there is content which is simply too hard for you?
.../...
Your numbers are completely off btw...there are far more people completing vMoL and vSO...just take a look at the leaderboards.

I guess you're "talking" to me here ?

Let's start with the latter point : yes I look at the leaderboards and yes there are names ... but... but... how many people does that make as compared to the *entire* player base ??? I doubt it makes more than 1%. But none of us has the real figures anyway.

Which leads us to the former point :

As a matter of principle, I don't mind some content being inaccessible to me personally. There's enough content in the game, I won't miss a couple of instances being too hard for me. But I think that's a silly move from ZOS. What's the point in developing content that's closed to 99% of your players ? It is definitely possible to design stuff to be *completeable* by many players WHILE AT THE SAME TIME being very challenging to complete with a very high score. Many people would run AND complete it, while only the top 1% would be able to do it well enough to reach the leaderboards. That would be clever design - imho.

As an example, look at AA as it is now on live. Nearly everyone can complete it, even the most newbie groups. BUT since many groups can do it, many groups also try the leaderboards. As a result, it is currently MUCH HARDER to reach the weekly leaderboards when AA is on than when SO in on. Because there are far more people participating in the competition and reaching a very high score requires extreme fine tuning and high DPS.

Of course guilds like Hodor wouldn't notice : they get to the top anyway and probably don't even notice the struggle for the rankings below them. But for more "average" progression groups, it's more fun and more rewarding to fine tune AA than to beat their heads against the wall in vMOL.

Destruent · July 2016

The problem with AA/HRC on live is, it's so extremely easy and boring that noone runs it for score....only for weekly if it is. Sry, but 5...10 mins stack and burn is no fun for progression guilds. Especially if you consider things like regrouping (~2...5 mins), crashes and dc (5...10 mins) and things like this. you end up preparing most of the time without raiding that much.
And how do you know what is fun for progressguilds? Do you want to know it? The most fun i had in eso the last months (on live-server) has been the following:
- beating vMoL + refining tactics
- doing vMoL speedrun
- wiping at vMoL/HM without crashes
- doing world-first vSO and refining tactics

And not: doing AA-weekly 4 times within 2 hours bc we had to regroup a dozen times bc of crashes, DCs, reloggs on alts and stuff.
You want endgame-content to be balanced for the top 50%. Problem is: The "top 50%" are not even able to use 50% of the posibilities of their characters. How do you want to balance it? There has to be content for all kinds of gameplay/experience. vMoL is the content for the best PvErs ingame and that's fine. vSO is a bit easier and i guess vHRC, vDSA and vAA will be even easier. SO everyone can start doing AA and then progress to HRC and DSA as well as doing its hardmodes. Then moving on to SO and finally progress in vMoL.

edit: oh, btw...that wasn't specifically to you anitajone, just for everyone who wants "easymode-vet-trials" ;-)