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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
• PC/Mac: NA and EU megaservers for maintenance – November 1, 4:00AM EDT (8:00 UTC) - 9:00AM EDT (13:00 UTC)
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/668104/
Let's talk about why there is no Magic Damage increase passive
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SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭
Excluding spell resistances, armor, etcSwaminoNowlino wrote: »If I got hit by a 20k frag in pvp I don't think it would be the racials fault...
My buddy wanted to test his Magicka Templar's damage in PVP a few days ago. I got on a lowbie and we ran some tests using his dark flare with me wearing impen and without. He's a Breton Magicka temp and I was on a dunmer Magicka DK. Without impen his dark flare hit me for 15k (I can't remember if he was empowering them, but likely). I'd have to run Asayres' spreadsheet on the benefits of a magic damage passive, but I think it'd likely boost that quite a bit.
a 3% direct increase to a flat value of 15000 is 15450
I am open to being wrong, and if it were just a 450 increase then I don't see why you're getting so upset about it. I likely am wrong about the math but there are likely some other multipliers in there that would increase the gain. Again, open to being wrong on that.
@Polysemy good for you. Nice to see a sorc getting some use somewhere. Like I said, I'm on console and o can only base what's going on there. And there aren't but 2 or three sorcs in end game trials groups.
Look if your definition of derailing the thread and declarations based on "quit the game" are derived from disagreeing with Nifty then again, my apologies for being mistaken. But I am entitled to a dissenting opinion and will voice it.
Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Because as @Zinaroth said, burst is absolutely useless in terms of getting strong DPS (except your initial burst), it's sustain that you want, a sustained 3% increase to magic damage for templars and nightblades will be an amazing change and put them more in lines of where the other classes are at. A 3% increase to magic damage on an ability that has a 1 second cast time is a barely noticeable and marginal increase.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
Excluding spell resistances, armor, etcSwaminoNowlino wrote: »If I got hit by a 20k frag in pvp I don't think it would be the racials fault...
My buddy wanted to test his Magicka Templar's damage in PVP a few days ago. I got on a lowbie and we ran some tests using his dark flare with me wearing impen and without. He's a Breton Magicka temp and I was on a dunmer Magicka DK. Without impen his dark flare hit me for 15k (I can't remember if he was empowering them, but likely). I'd have to run Asayres' spreadsheet on the benefits of a magic damage passive, but I think it'd likely boost that quite a bit.
a 3% direct increase to a flat value of 15000 is 15450
I am open to being wrong, and if it were just a 450 increase then I don't see why you're getting so upset about it. I likely am wrong about the math but there are likely some other multipliers in there that would increase the gain. Again, open to being wrong on that.
@Polysemy good for you. Nice to see a sorc getting some use somewhere. Like I said, I'm on console and o can only base what's going on there. And there aren't but 2 or three sorcs in end game trials groups.
Look if your definition of derailing the thread and declarations based on "quit the game" are derived from disagreeing with Nifty then again, my apologies for being mistaken. But I am entitled to a dissenting opinion and will voice it.
I can accept that other classes will be stronger, but I don't want the gap to be this big, it shouldn't be this big at all. I enjoy Templar, but it's not a biased request I am asking for, this is not going to make the class #1, if it were I wouldn't ask for a change. I don't normally ask for incredibly biased changes.#MOREORBS2 -
Slakk✭✭✭If anyone on console could complete SO, you'd probably get hit by 30k+ overloads in pvp too.
Nerf Altmer.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about thisSwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you are misunderstanding Nifty's point. Nifty wants to add a passive that boosts magic damage, a passive like fire, ice and Lightning damage. You are talking about spell damage, a completely different thing. +Spell damage and +max magicka boost the damage of all of your magic skills. Magic damage is something that boosts only the damage of skills dealing magic damage.1 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭
Because as @Zinaroth said, burst is absolutely useless in terms of getting strong DPS (except your initial burst), it's sustain that you want, a sustained 3% increase to magic damage for templars and nightblades will be an amazing change and put them more in lines of where the other classes are at. A 3% increase to magic damage on an ability that has a 1 second cast time is a barely noticeable and marginal increase.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
Excluding spell resistances, armor, etcSwaminoNowlino wrote: »If I got hit by a 20k frag in pvp I don't think it would be the racials fault...
My buddy wanted to test his Magicka Templar's damage in PVP a few days ago. I got on a lowbie and we ran some tests using his dark flare with me wearing impen and without. He's a Breton Magicka temp and I was on a dunmer Magicka DK. Without impen his dark flare hit me for 15k (I can't remember if he was empowering them, but likely). I'd have to run Asayres' spreadsheet on the benefits of a magic damage passive, but I think it'd likely boost that quite a bit.
a 3% direct increase to a flat value of 15000 is 15450
I am open to being wrong, and if it were just a 450 increase then I don't see why you're getting so upset about it. I likely am wrong about the math but there are likely some other multipliers in there that would increase the gain. Again, open to being wrong on that.
@Polysemy good for you. Nice to see a sorc getting some use somewhere. Like I said, I'm on console and o can only base what's going on there. And there aren't but 2 or three sorcs in end game trials groups.
Look if your definition of derailing the thread and declarations based on "quit the game" are derived from disagreeing with Nifty then again, my apologies for being mistaken. But I am entitled to a dissenting opinion and will voice it.
I can accept that other classes will be stronger, but I don't want the gap to be this big, it shouldn't be this big at all. I enjoy Templar, but it's not a biased request I am asking for, this is not going to make the class #1, if it were I wouldn't ask for a change. I don't normally ask for incredibly biased changes.
What do you calculate/guesstimate your parse would be if this change were implemented? I didn't say anything about burst having anything to do with DPS, I said burst was a specialty of one class but after burst the DPS levels out over time. What is your best parse on a Templar now compared to what it would be then and compared to other Magicka classes? Again, not disagreeing anywhere but asking to be informed.
@Slakk I'm not sure if console failures are more due to skill or *** poor performance issues. Most folks get dashboarded multiple times if they even try.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is even asking for. Magic damage is a source of damage in ESO. Just like elemental damage.
I'm not misunderstanding at all. I understand what is being asked for, and am pointing to why it is not necessary in my opinion. I am backing my opinion up with facts regarding how dps works in this game, citing ESO academy and have been reviewing material from Asayre to see if it disagrees with me anywhere.
I understand that base magic damage is not as high as elemental damage, which is boosted by passives, max Magicka, and elemental expert. I also know that Nifty is mainly a Templar and base magic damage passives would increase the damage of sweeps, radiant, and dark flare similar to how elemental damage boosts vampires bane.
Again, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am not derailing this thread, I am merely pointing to how a base magic passive would increase damage output of all Magicka builds beyond what is attainable by stamina builds.
Edit: the same argument can be made when looking at the stamina sides of things in that Nightblades can access disease damage and DKs can access poison. I'm not necessarily against a magic damage passive, I'm merely pointing to where it might throw off the balance. Especially since Magicka Templars are so damn strong this patch.
Information and opinions that counter yours are not misinformation. I get that you all would like base damage of magic abilities to go up, I am pointing to how the disparity in terms of max stats and damage multipliers COULD lead to screwed balance.
Ok so you do understand Nifty's argument then. How would a 3% boost to magic damage be unfair? I can argue that stamina have access to 8% weapon crit which is unfair to magicka, since there is not an equivalent spell crit passive, but this argument is neither here nor there. Different races offer different buffs. While it may be lore breaking to give Bretons Magic damage, as it stands they are a bad race to play in PvE, because they do not have a damage modifier. Giving them magic damage would give magickarapetov users amother racial choice besides dunmer and Altmer- the only two viable magical choices.0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about thisSwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you are misunderstanding Nifty's point. Nifty wants to add a passive that boosts magic damage, a passive like fire, ice and Lightning damage. You are talking about spell damage, a completely different thing. +Spell damage and +max magicka boost the damage of all of your magic skills. Magic damage is something that boosts only the damage of skills dealing magic damage.
Thanks for the explanation. I was(and maybe am) under the impression that there was a base magic damage number which factored towards spell power. Thus increasing that number and creating a disparity between the available ratios. This may not to be the case, I can't find information on which side of the equation it goes on.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Nifty2g I am sorry but Templar damage underperforming? In comparison to what? In terms of Magicka dps they are second on a baseline to DK, discounting sorc overload. DK still reigns King in terms of PVE dps, but I really do believe Templars are the single most balanced class from both a Magicka and Stam perspective. High damage output with great group utility, self heals and mitigation. Not to mention radiant (every thread given enough time turns into a nerf radiant thread
). Nightblade is in a weird spot since the nerf to funnel health, but it's weird to put your finger on just what they need. Their damage could be a bit higher but with their sustain it could get out of hand.
Ugh....nightblade hits harder than a templar....0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue I'm not sure what your basing that on but the best performers on console are all Magicka aside from the Stam DK, and Magicka is still largely winning out there. Stam Nightblades have some insane burst but I still expect a Magicka Templar can out DPS them over the long term. Not to mention the utility that Magicka builds tend to bring that Stam builds lack. There is more to balance than just damage output.
No...Stam>Magicka as of this patch.0 -
Solariken✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭The only surprise to me was that they didn't buff Imperial combat passives at all. I mean, I know it's behind a separate pay wall so im sure they are worried about pay to win complaints, but Red Diamond is pretty lackluster compared to many of the other races.0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is even asking for. Magic damage is a source of damage in ESO. Just like elemental damage.
I'm not misunderstanding at all. I understand what is being asked for, and am pointing to why it is not necessary in my opinion. I am backing my opinion up with facts regarding how dps works in this game, citing ESO academy and have been reviewing material from Asayre to see if it disagrees with me anywhere.
I understand that base magic damage is not as high as elemental damage, which is boosted by passives, max Magicka, and elemental expert. I also know that Nifty is mainly a Templar and base magic damage passives would increase the damage of sweeps, radiant, and dark flare similar to how elemental damage boosts vampires bane.
Again, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am not derailing this thread, I am merely pointing to how a base magic passive would increase damage output of all Magicka builds beyond what is attainable by stamina builds.
Edit: the same argument can be made when looking at the stamina sides of things in that Nightblades can access disease damage and DKs can access poison. I'm not necessarily against a magic damage passive, I'm merely pointing to where it might throw off the balance. Especially since Magicka Templars are so damn strong this patch.
Information and opinions that counter yours are not misinformation. I get that you all would like base damage of magic abilities to go up, I am pointing to how the disparity in terms of max stats and damage multipliers COULD lead to screwed balance.
Ok so you do understand Nifty's argument then. How would a 3% boost to magic damage be unfair? I can argue that stamina have access to 8% weapon crit which is unfair to magicka, since there is not an equivalent spell crit passive, but this argument is neither here nor there. Different races offer different buffs. While it may be lore breaking to give Bretons Magic damage, as it stands they are a bad race to play in PvE, because they do not have a damage modifier. Giving them magic damage would give magickarapetov users amother racial choice besides dunmer and Altmer- the only two viable magical choices.
I could point to the ability of Magicka to completely mitigate weapon critical through shields. I get that you all are largely coming from a PVE perspective, while my concern is PVP. There are little things that try to create balance like that, which make sense from a PVP perspective but negatively impact PVE. Seeing how that's not in the game and thinking of the permutations of its implementation concerns me. The magnitude of my concern is on which side of the equation it falls on, of which I am unaware. Please enlighten me if you know.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
For a PvP stand point, it would barely be noticeable. Small increase for your damage.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is even asking for. Magic damage is a source of damage in ESO. Just like elemental damage.
I'm not misunderstanding at all. I understand what is being asked for, and am pointing to why it is not necessary in my opinion. I am backing my opinion up with facts regarding how dps works in this game, citing ESO academy and have been reviewing material from Asayre to see if it disagrees with me anywhere.
I understand that base magic damage is not as high as elemental damage, which is boosted by passives, max Magicka, and elemental expert. I also know that Nifty is mainly a Templar and base magic damage passives would increase the damage of sweeps, radiant, and dark flare similar to how elemental damage boosts vampires bane.
Again, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am not derailing this thread, I am merely pointing to how a base magic passive would increase damage output of all Magicka builds beyond what is attainable by stamina builds.
Edit: the same argument can be made when looking at the stamina sides of things in that Nightblades can access disease damage and DKs can access poison. I'm not necessarily against a magic damage passive, I'm merely pointing to where it might throw off the balance. Especially since Magicka Templars are so damn strong this patch.
Information and opinions that counter yours are not misinformation. I get that you all would like base damage of magic abilities to go up, I am pointing to how the disparity in terms of max stats and damage multipliers COULD lead to screwed balance.
Ok so you do understand Nifty's argument then. How would a 3% boost to magic damage be unfair? I can argue that stamina have access to 8% weapon crit which is unfair to magicka, since there is not an equivalent spell crit passive, but this argument is neither here nor there. Different races offer different buffs. While it may be lore breaking to give Bretons Magic damage, as it stands they are a bad race to play in PvE, because they do not have a damage modifier. Giving them magic damage would give magickarapetov users amother racial choice besides dunmer and Altmer- the only two viable magical choices.
I could point to the ability of Magicka to completely mitigate weapon critical through shields. I get that you all are largely coming from a PVE perspective, while my concern is PVP. There are little things that try to create balance like that, which make sense from a PVP perspective but negatively impact PVE. Seeing how that's not in the game and thinking of the permutations of its implementation concerns me. The magnitude of my concern is on which side of the equation it falls on, of which I am unaware. Please enlighten me if you know.
You're forgetting that you have increases to all of your damage abilities as a Stamina user (some classes more than others based on what they specialize in I guess)
But your main factor is being buffed in race passives, I don't see why they can't do that for Magic Damage as it is a highly prominent damage source in a lot of class abilities
Edited by Nifty2g on June 27, 2016 11:29PM#MOREORBS0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭@hedna123b14_ESO I can only speak to what is going on in terms of console. The trials groups want Templars over Nightblades (I know the ultimate is a factor here) and stamina classes, aside from DK, are largely not performing as well as the Magicka classes. These things may well change, as we've only had this patch for a week or so and people are adjusting to the changes.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
Polysemy✭✭✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is even asking for. Magic damage is a source of damage in ESO. Just like elemental damage.
I'm not misunderstanding at all. I understand what is being asked for, and am pointing to why it is not necessary in my opinion. I am backing my opinion up with facts regarding how dps works in this game, citing ESO academy and have been reviewing material from Asayre to see if it disagrees with me anywhere.
I understand that base magic damage is not as high as elemental damage, which is boosted by passives, max Magicka, and elemental expert. I also know that Nifty is mainly a Templar and base magic damage passives would increase the damage of sweeps, radiant, and dark flare similar to how elemental damage boosts vampires bane.
Again, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am not derailing this thread, I am merely pointing to how a base magic passive would increase damage output of all Magicka builds beyond what is attainable by stamina builds.
Edit: the same argument can be made when looking at the stamina sides of things in that Nightblades can access disease damage and DKs can access poison. I'm not necessarily against a magic damage passive, I'm merely pointing to where it might throw off the balance. Especially since Magicka Templars are so damn strong this patch.
Information and opinions that counter yours are not misinformation. I get that you all would like base damage of magic abilities to go up, I am pointing to how the disparity in terms of max stats and damage multipliers COULD lead to screwed balance.
Ok so you do understand Nifty's argument then. How would a 3% boost to magic damage be unfair? I can argue that stamina have access to 8% weapon crit which is unfair to magicka, since there is not an equivalent spell crit passive, but this argument is neither here nor there. Different races offer different buffs. While it may be lore breaking to give Bretons Magic damage, as it stands they are a bad race to play in PvE, because they do not have a damage modifier. Giving them magic damage would give magickarapetov users amother racial choice besides dunmer and Altmer- the only two viable magical choices.
I could point to the ability of Magicka to completely mitigate weapon critical through shields. I get that you all are largely coming from a PVE perspective, while my concern is PVP. There are little things that try to create balance like that, which make sense from a PVP perspective but negatively impact PVE. Seeing how that's not in the game and thinking of the permutations of its implementation concerns me. The magnitude of my concern is on which side of the equation it falls on, of which I am unaware. Please enlighten me if you know.
Can you *** off? multiple people have stated to me or in guild this thread is ruiing their day... and thats because of you a console player who has no basis or ability to really and truly test damage
And yes youve derailed this thread by coming in here a forcing your naive points onto othersGrade A ***4 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Gilliamtherogue I'm not sure what your basing that on but the best performers on console are all Magicka aside from the Stam DK, and Magicka is still largely winning out there. Stam Nightblades have some insane burst but I still expect a Magicka Templar can out DPS them over the long term. Not to mention the utility that Magicka builds tend to bring that Stam builds lack. There is more to balance than just damage output.
No...Stam>Magicka as of this patch.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »DisgracefulMind wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »
I don't know where you have gotten this information from...SwaminoNowlino wrote: »Max Magicka = increased Magic dps
Max spell power = increased magic dps
Max stamina = increased stamina dps
Max weapon damage = increased stamina dps
Max Magicka = 45kish +
Max spell power = 3000ish
Max stamina = 35k ish
Max weapon damage = 4k ish
1 k more weapon damage = 10 k more max Magicka (roughly).
In terms of balance, if you want 4K spell power then give Stam classes an extra 10k more max stamina (do you really want folks running around with 50k Stam? I don't think so). This is balance. The baseline DPS of each based on these stats are roughly equal.
Max stamina and max magicka increase overall damage from every source, not a specific type of damage
And I don't think you are understanding the bases of what I am asking for with this passive change... @hedna123b14_ESO I'll let you talk about this
You are incorrect. Physical damage scales off max stamina. Magic damage scales off max magicka. If I have 50k max Magicka my biting jabs will hit like a noodle, if I have 35k max stamina they will hit harder.
It's broken down quite nicely here. http://esoacademy.com/damage-in-eso/
I think you're misunderstanding what this thread is even asking for. Magic damage is a source of damage in ESO. Just like elemental damage.
I'm not misunderstanding at all. I understand what is being asked for, and am pointing to why it is not necessary in my opinion. I am backing my opinion up with facts regarding how dps works in this game, citing ESO academy and have been reviewing material from Asayre to see if it disagrees with me anywhere.
I understand that base magic damage is not as high as elemental damage, which is boosted by passives, max Magicka, and elemental expert. I also know that Nifty is mainly a Templar and base magic damage passives would increase the damage of sweeps, radiant, and dark flare similar to how elemental damage boosts vampires bane.
Again, I understand exactly what I am talking about and am not derailing this thread, I am merely pointing to how a base magic passive would increase damage output of all Magicka builds beyond what is attainable by stamina builds.
Edit: the same argument can be made when looking at the stamina sides of things in that Nightblades can access disease damage and DKs can access poison. I'm not necessarily against a magic damage passive, I'm merely pointing to where it might throw off the balance. Especially since Magicka Templars are so damn strong this patch.
Information and opinions that counter yours are not misinformation. I get that you all would like base damage of magic abilities to go up, I am pointing to how the disparity in terms of max stats and damage multipliers COULD lead to screwed balance.
Ok so you do understand Nifty's argument then. How would a 3% boost to magic damage be unfair? I can argue that stamina have access to 8% weapon crit which is unfair to magicka, since there is not an equivalent spell crit passive, but this argument is neither here nor there. Different races offer different buffs. While it may be lore breaking to give Bretons Magic damage, as it stands they are a bad race to play in PvE, because they do not have a damage modifier. Giving them magic damage would give magickarapetov users amother racial choice besides dunmer and Altmer- the only two viable magical choices.
I could point to the ability of Magicka to completely mitigate weapon critical through shields. I get that you all are largely coming from a PVE perspective, while my concern is PVP. There are little things that try to create balance like that, which make sense from a PVP perspective but negatively impact PVE. Seeing how that's not in the game and thinking of the permutations of its implementation concerns me. The magnitude of my concern is on which side of the equation it falls on, of which I am unaware. Please enlighten me if you know.
Yes we are definitely coming from a PvE centric point of view, but in PvP between all of the mitigation and the damage reductions that 3% won't change much. In PvE however it would help provide an alternative racial choice, which is the point of racial changes.2 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭@Nifty2g Alcast suggested putting it on Altmer(which I think was tongue in cheek?). Would that not just further the disparity?
Templar abilities, I think, are relatively expensive compared to other classes. I know it sure feels like that. That's why I think Breton is still strong. In this new patch with the increases to ability costs, I'd think that would be even more important. Again I know this matters less in PVE where buffs and rebuffs help manage this.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO I can only speak to what is going on in terms of console. The trials groups want Templars over Nightblades (I know the ultimate is a factor here) and stamina classes, aside from DK, are largely not performing as well as the Magicka classes. These things may well change, as we've only had this patch for a week or so and people are adjusting to the changes.
Trust me, give it 2 weeks and you will find that nearly all stam builds will outparse magicka. By the way Magblade hit way harder than Magdk, specifically because they are ranged and thus are less hurt by movement in fights. Templars do hit harder, but it's just so much easier to do well on a nightblade. Aso for Magdk, I have yet to see one outparse my nightblade.0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭@Polysemy wow, that's a weird feeling to know that I have the sole power to ruin people's day. I'll be sure to respond to every thread created with a full and enthusiastic "Yes!" without taking the time to reason out the logic. What a delightfully helpful thread that would be. Just everyone saying yes to everything.
Thread has not been derailed, nor have I violated any forum rules. I am discussing the merits of the argument as I am entitled to do. Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO I can only speak to what is going on in terms of console. The trials groups want Templars over Nightblades (I know the ultimate is a factor here) and stamina classes, aside from DK, are largely not performing as well as the Magicka classes. These things may well change, as we've only had this patch for a week or so and people are adjusting to the changes.
Trust me, give it 2 weeks and you will find that nearly all stam builds will outparse magicka. By the way Magblade hit way harder than Magdk, specifically because they are ranged and thus are less hurt by movement in fights. Templars do hit harder, but it's just so much easier to do well on a nightblade. Aso for Magdk, I have yet to see one outparse my nightblade.
I will believe you, as I have stated I can only form a basis off of console performance. Magicka nightblade is definitely much easier to play well, but since the nerf to funnel health has less to offer than an exceptionally played Templar.
I forget the dude's name, but he posted a video of his Magicka DK burning the first VMA boss before it even spawned an add. Maybe a Magicka nightblade can do that now, I just haven't seen anything like it.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
hedna123b14_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭SwaminoNowlino wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO I can only speak to what is going on in terms of console. The trials groups want Templars over Nightblades (I know the ultimate is a factor here) and stamina classes, aside from DK, are largely not performing as well as the Magicka classes. These things may well change, as we've only had this patch for a week or so and people are adjusting to the changes.
Trust me, give it 2 weeks and you will find that nearly all stam builds will outparse magicka. By the way Magblade hit way harder than Magdk, specifically because they are ranged and thus are less hurt by movement in fights. Templars do hit harder, but it's just so much easier to do well on a nightblade. Aso for Magdk, I have yet to see one outparse my nightblade.
I will believe you, as I have stated I can only form a basis off of console performance. Magicka nightblade is definitely much easier to play well, but since the nerf to funnel health has less to offer than an exceptionally played Templar.
I forget the dude's name, but he posted a video of his Magicka DK burning the first VMA boss before it even spawned an add. Maybe a Magicka nightblade can do that now, I just haven't seen anything like it.
I'm sure a dk can melt the first vMA boss. But if you look at the weekly/overall scores in vMA you will see how much better Nightblades do in there. And as I've said I have yet to meet a magicka DK who could outparse my magblade.0 -
SwaminoNowlino✭✭✭✭✭hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@hedna123b14_ESO I can only speak to what is going on in terms of console. The trials groups want Templars over Nightblades (I know the ultimate is a factor here) and stamina classes, aside from DK, are largely not performing as well as the Magicka classes. These things may well change, as we've only had this patch for a week or so and people are adjusting to the changes.
Trust me, give it 2 weeks and you will find that nearly all stam builds will outparse magicka. By the way Magblade hit way harder than Magdk, specifically because they are ranged and thus are less hurt by movement in fights. Templars do hit harder, but it's just so much easier to do well on a nightblade. Aso for Magdk, I have yet to see one outparse my nightblade.
I will believe you, as I have stated I can only form a basis off of console performance. Magicka nightblade is definitely much easier to play well, but since the nerf to funnel health has less to offer than an exceptionally played Templar.
I forget the dude's name, but he posted a video of his Magicka DK burning the first VMA boss before it even spawned an add. Maybe a Magicka nightblade can do that now, I just haven't seen anything like it.
I'm sure a dk can melt the first vMA boss. But if you look at the weekly/overall scores in vMA you will see how much better Nightblades do in there. And as I've said I have yet to meet a magicka DK who could outparse my magblade.
First boss is a good measurement of damage because at least initially you're not taking or having to mitigate much damage. We don't have damage meters as some folks here have so delighted in saying, so things like this are good measurements. DKs performance in VMA over the course of the entire trial is almost always going to lose out to Nightblades. DKs are more reliant on other classes to sustain and stay alive. I believe you about your parse, though if you want to get a damage boost that may counter your argument.Xbox NA : CP 160 StamPlar, MagNB, MagSorc, StamSorc, StamDK, StamNB, Level 10 MagDK & MagPlar, StamWarden, MagWarden
"We want firing off Dark Exchange in the middle of combat to feel awesome." - The Balance Lord Wrobel
- And now it sure does, better learn how to bash folks!
I get by with a little help from logic.0 -
ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ha... last time they tried to buff the Altmer and Bosmer passives there was such public outrage that they removed it the following PTS update.CP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****0 -
NovaShadow✭✭✭✭✭As a Breton magblade I'd love it if they removed the spell resist and the new *** 1% ap gain and replaced it with magic damage.PC NA - EPHS0 -
IcyDeadPeople✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭The concept of magic damage racial buff is interesting but would seem to be a better fit with any race beside Altmer or Breton. These two are already a bit OP for magicka builds compared to the other races with 10% max magicka and recovery / cost reduction.
Always keep in mind the players who do not have access to the Explorer Pack / any race any alliance.
If they roll AD or DC, there are rather strong options for Stamina and Magicka builds. For EP they are limited to Dunmer, Argonian or Nord. This is why Argonian healing and Dunmer elemental damage was buffed a bit this patch. (Could use even a bit stronger buffs perhaps.)
Edited by IcyDeadPeople on June 28, 2016 3:24AM1 -
Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I agree. Magic damage should be present among racial passives. But altmers are already in a pretty good position, so I'd rather give that bonus to bretons. Something like 7% magic damage instead of that 3% reduced cost ***.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0 -
TARAFRAKA✭✭✭✭✭
Yes Templar damage is underperforming right now due to everything I have said in here. It's probably the weakest to DPS in PvE right now compared to the others because balance is being broken.SwaminoNowlino wrote: »@Nifty2g I am sorry but Templar damage underperforming? In comparison to what? In terms of Magicka dps they are second on a baseline to DK, discounting sorc overload. DK still reigns King in terms of PVE dps, but I really do believe Templars are the single most balanced class from both a Magicka and Stam perspective. High damage output with great group utility, self heals and mitigation. Not to mention radiant (every thread given enough time turns into a nerf radiant thread ). Nightblade is in a weird spot since the nerf to funnel health, but it's weird to put your finger on just what they need. Their damage could be a bit higher but with their sustain it could get out of hand.
I hate to say this but you're wasting your breath. On a thread thread few days ago about broken eso plus even though they were subscribed on xbone, I went round and round with this...gentleman and no matter what you say or how you explain it, he can't be wrong.
Despite you being a top raider, he will not and can not...be quiet.0
