Official Feedback Thread for Item Traits

Joy_Division · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

TheSpin wrote: »

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

So here is a questiom.

Which is more beneficial: a single gold set that is not the best traits for a given circumstance OR several purple sets with different traits so you switch into the "best" when needed?

A gold set that is the best trait because that it what people who play 10 hours a day I am competing against will have.

Ideally, it would be as such where the was no obvious "best" trait and no obvious bad ones, so I would not feel gimped when using a certain trait.

Is it always/mostly/rarely the case that "best trait best set" is the same for:
Magblade light armor ranged attacker.
Dk heavy armor melee
Gang of 4 mixed group
Gang of 10-15 mixed group

Or is there much more homogenity of adversaries than i think?

Yes. Almost always sharpened for weapons for DPS. No matter the number or composition of enemies, cutting their resistance is the most efficient means to increase damage against them.

Armor is a similar story. If I am PvEing, I want divines (though I'd take infused on big armor) if I'm not tanking (and even if I was tanking, I'd still want them but for the DB blocking changes). In PvP I want Impen. Though I wouldn't complain with a piece or two of well-fitted

NBrookus · May 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Training and prosperous should ONLY be available on crafted gear, and ONLY through trait reforging if that's ever implemented.

It has to drop somewhere for research purposes. Ideally just in the 1-50 zones on random loot.

(Yes, I know people can craft research items, but not everyone is social or will know this. I've answered "how do I get a nirn item" more times than I can recall.)

dagonbeer · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

Looks to me like if you want to trade "DPS edge in many circumstances" for "DPS in some PLUS healing in many/all" then you now have that option.

But, for me, with frequent use of the major resistance debuffs and definite chances of hitting 0 resistance the choices are at least more of a question than a slam dunk. Enough that i may well have a pair of weapons i swap in or out for boss encounters vs mobs.

I have a problem with the magnitude of numbers involved. Going off Asayre's numbers, it's more

"trading DPS edge of 11.9% in many circumstances" for "3.5 or 3.2% DPS in some PLUS healing in many/all"

That's a huge difference. 1 or 2% difference I can understand. 8%+?

- Consider that active healing will likely take place on a different bar separate from your main DPS bar.
- Consider that hitting 0 resistance is a rare case for most people. At best (I raid in a fairly casual guild) I can probably count on approx -5k (major fracture) -1.2k (minor fracture) -3k (Alkosh). With those numbers (+ LA passives/CP) Sharpened is probably still equal/slightly superior on bosses compared to precise or nirn.
- This will exacerbate the RNG complaints for maelstrom (and future master-type weapons.) I confess that this is my primary concern. When an inferno staff finally drops for me, I'd like less gnashing of teeth if it turns out to be precise (or defending, or whatever other traits they might end up adding to the loot table.) I have a variety of other weapons in both sharpened and precise, but better if 50% of them are not sub optimal after DB.

STEVIL · May 2016

Giraffon wrote: »

I've said this since the first news of trait changes came out. When this goes live, I want to be able to deconstruct any purple and gold gear for a FULL REFUND of all of the mats used. Just give me a week so I can tear all this crap apart and rebuild it and tear it apart again if I need to until I get it right.

You guys really stuck it to us with this change and it's the least you can do.

And i am of the exact opposite mindset..

From back before TG i have been on mat gathering focus, prepping for the DB and vet and other changes. Seemed more productive than complaining.

I also KNOW in an MMO things chg and ESO set a schedule for us a long while back.

I also know any FIXED choices like gear can be made "less desirable" bu any significant update.

So, i prepared for that eventuality, planned for it and did not bet the farm on a strategy of hoping nothing ever changes with a fret and fuss backup plan.

So, for me, the least they can do is carry on business as usual and let people do what they always do in MMO -adapt to evolving situation or not.

Otherwise, our choices mean nada.

Giraffon · May 2016

I just don't agree with that approach. Sure I've got plenty of resources and these changes won't slow me down a bit, but that doesn't make it okay to take something from me without providing any sort of compensation in return.

Let's say you order your favorite meal at a restaurant. They bring it out. It looks great and you are enjoying it. Then after a couple of bites they take it away and you get a TV dinner. Now the original meal was worth a days wages, but this TV dinner is only worth 20 minutes of work.

You're okay with that?

I'm not. I want reimbursed for the deficit in value of what the replacement product was.

STEVIL · May 2016

Giraffon wrote: »

I just don't agree with that approach. Sure I've got plenty of resources and these changes won't slow me down a bit, but that doesn't make it okay to take something from me without providing any sort of compensation in return.

Let's say you order your favorite meal at a restaurant. They bring it out. It looks great and you are enjoying it. Then after a couple of bites they take it away and you get a TV dinner. Now the original meal was worth a days wages, but this TV dinner is only worth 20 minutes of work.

You're okay with that?

I'm not. I want reimbursed for the deficit in value of what the replacement product was.

IF I wasn't okay with that I wouldn't go to the type of eatery I know does that.

MMOS change things, often these changes most often impact BEST OF and change those top tier micro-managed precisions. That's a fact of life if you CHOOSE to eat at MMOes Diner.

You had the benefits of your previous investment, likely for some time. You got your meal. Now they are changing the recipe so maybe you don't order the steak and go with fish.

Giraffon · May 2016

LOL. I suppose you got me there!

dagonbeer · May 2016

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom The exchange above just highlights the need for sharpened to be addressed now. If these DB changes go live, I'd want to reforge some of my nirn weapons to sharpened for optimal performance. Except I'd be hesitant to do that -- pretty much everyone on this thread (and this) understands that sharpened is *far* ahead of the other traits for dps, and reasonably expects a nerf. It's one thing to change skills and CP where you can respec them for a pittance (and which in fact you are making accomodations for, thank you!) It's another to tinker with items where it can cost over 100k in tempers to "respec" 2 swords. We really need the trait changes to be concrete, and we need to have confidence that they won't be changed drastically in the near future.

In that respect, I don't see how sharpened can stay at the value it is. 8%+ (or 11%+ if comparing to non-precise/nirn weapons) dps difference is something that overpowers most 5 piece bonuses, and in some cases even maelstrom bonuses. Unless it is intended that players chuck new, exciting drops in favor of a generic sharpened weapon. If sharpened decreased 4.5% mitigation, compared to 3.5%/3.2% damage increase from precise or nirn, that would make all other traits viable as well. (I do think that defending should remain as strong as it is now in PTS to incentivize its use.)

Recremen · May 2016

Sallington wrote: »

Trait reforging NEEDS to be implemented, and some traits need to be "crafting only".

Training and prosperous should ONLY be available on crafted gear, and ONLY through trait reforging if that's ever implemented.

@Sallington I agree with the thrust of your argument but if those traits don't drop off of PvE creatures then there's no guaranteed way to actually learn the trait. ;-) Still, it shouldn't be that much of a hassle to keep them out of end-game loot tables.

STEVIL · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom The exchange above just highlights the need for sharpened to be addressed now. If these DB changes go live, I'd want to reforge some of my nirn weapons to sharpened for optimal performance. Except I'd be hesitant to do that -- pretty much everyone on this thread (and this) understands that sharpened is *far* ahead of the other traits for dps, and reasonably expects a nerf. It's one thing to change skills and CP where you can respec them for a pittance (and which in fact you are making accomodations for, thank you!) It's another to tinker with items where it can cost over 100k in tempers to "respec" 2 swords. We really need the trait changes to be concrete, and we need to have confidence that they won't be changed drastically in the near future.

In that respect, I don't see how sharpened can stay at the value it is. 8%+ (or 11%+ if comparing to non-precise/nirn weapons) dps difference is something that overpowers most 5 piece bonuses, and in some cases even maelstrom bonuses. Unless it is intended that players chuck new, exciting drops in favor of a generic sharpened weapon. If sharpened decreased 4.5% mitigation, compared to 3.5%/3.2% damage increase from precise or nirn, that would make all other traits viable as well. (I do think that defending should remain as strong as it is now in PTS to incentivize its use.)

i missed the memo. What accomodations for respec???

dagonbeer · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

i missed the memo. What accomodations for respec???

Apparently shrines are going to be cheap for the first week.

STEVIL · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

i missed the memo. What accomodations for respec???

Apparently shrines are going to be cheap for the first week.

Cool but will really annoy bob, who is on vacay all next week.

Makkir · May 2016

Can we instead get a shrine that doesn't remove every single skill point but rather allows to change one skill if we so desire.....?

dagonbeer · May 2016

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Still hope to get some developer rationale on the sharpened trait before DB drops, especially since changes to traits may cause people to reforge weapons (100k+ gold cost for two swords.) Or in other cases, to live with sub-optimal weapons in the reasonable belief that a nerf may be coming.

Is a 8%+ dps difference between sharpened and precise/nirn weapons intended?

I can see why the 5280 value was selected, since it jives nicely with the major breach/Fracture debuffs. If you look at the abilities that apply major breach/fracture, you could say that it's about 50% the utility of those abilities. That's far more powerful than other traits however; for example if you compare pierce armor/heroic slash, the sharpened trait replicates 50% of utility of pierce armor, while the powered trait doesn't come close to reproducing 50% of the utility of heroic slash. You essentially have sharpened applying two *Major* debuffs (only for the player, granted), while Powered gives you a fraction of a *Minor* buff (heroism).

Or imagine an ability where 50% of its utility is to increase damage and healing by 3.2%. That's laughable compared to major breach/fracture, but that's nirn at the moment.

These are not great or exact comparisons but hopefully it illustrates the gulf between the sharpened trait and the other weapons traits (which I feel are pretty balanced.)

code65536 · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Still hope to get some developer rationale on the sharpened trait before DB drops, especially since changes to traits may cause people to reforge weapons (100k+ gold cost for two swords.) Or in other cases, to live with sub-optimal weapons in the reasonable belief that a nerf may be coming.

Is a 8%+ dps difference between sharpened and precise/nirn weapons intended?

@Wrobel provided his reasoning on ESO Live, stating that Sharpened was "situational". It is true that nirnhoned is much more general-purpose: it affects DPS and healing, and it will boost your damage even if the enemy is shielded or overpenetrated--the two scenarios in which Sharpened is undesirable.

So yes, Sharpened is indeed "situational" because it affects only DPS and is effective only against unshielded targets whose armor has not yet been penetrated to zero. But the problem with this is that this is a very common situation. The vast majority of situations that a DPS cares about are situations in which Sharpened is useful. And giving up ~8% extra damage in the vast majority of cases in return for 3% extra damage in the edge cases simply makes no sense.

Don't call something "situational" when it covers the majority of situations.

dagonbeer · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

@Wrobel provided his reasoning on ESO Live, stating that Sharpened was "situational". It is true that nirnhoned is much more general-purpose: it affects DPS and healing, and it will boost your damage even if the enemy is shielded or overpenetrated--the two scenarios in which Sharpened is undesirable.

So yes, Sharpened is indeed "situational" because it affects only DPS and is effective only against unshielded targets whose armor has not yet been penetrated to zero. But the problem with this is that this is a very common situation. The vast majority of situations that a DPS cares about are situations in which Sharpened is useful. And giving up ~8% extra damage in the vast majority of cases in return for 3% extra damage in the edge cases simply makes no sense.

Don't call something "situational" when it covers the majority of situations.

Yeah, I read that part too. At this point it will be good for them to confirm and say, yes, we fully intend for Sharpened to give a 11%/8% dps advantage over other traits and it is here to stay, at which point I'll jump on the Sharpened bandwagon and recraft once DB drops.

If they end up changing it to something more reasonable (imho, like 4.5% resistance reduction) after DB launches, there's going to be a lot of complaints about wasted tempers. I would recraft my nirn swords to sharpened for a 8% increase, not for a 1.5% increase.

STEVIL · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

dagonbeer wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Still hope to get some developer rationale on the sharpened trait before DB drops, especially since changes to traits may cause people to reforge weapons (100k+ gold cost for two swords.) Or in other cases, to live with sub-optimal weapons in the reasonable belief that a nerf may be coming.

Is a 8%+ dps difference between sharpened and precise/nirn weapons intended?

@Wrobel provided his reasoning on ESO Live, stating that Sharpened was "situational". It is true that nirnhoned is much more general-purpose: it affects DPS and healing, and it will boost your damage even if the enemy is shielded or overpenetrated--the two scenarios in which Sharpened is undesirable.

So yes, Sharpened is indeed "situational" because it affects only DPS and is effective only against unshielded targets whose armor has not yet been penetrated to zero. But the problem with this is that this is a very common situation. The vast majority of situations that a DPS cares about are situations in which Sharpened is useful. And giving up ~8% extra damage in the vast majority of cases in return for 3% extra damage in the edge cases simply makes no sense.

Don't call something "situational" when it covers the majority of situations.

What?

Situational means just what is being described: it works this way in some cases, differently in others and that is precisely what this is. Situational does not have a "percentage" applied to it.

But, if i look back over the last six months, i will find thread after thread, guides etc all about SHIELDS and how they are used frequently, shield stacking etc etc etc etc etc etc.

I find prominent guide to VMSA that says put shield on bar one or die so it seems they apply for pve as well.

So, sorry, but "unshielded" and "vast majority" do not go together for expectations unless you are including the gross of the normal pve content mobs where frankly the percentage diff dps between sharpened and training doesn't matter one bit.

But while the definition of situational is not a subjective call, what you run against may well be, so maybe indeed you choose to run against a subset of meaningful encounters where shields are practically unknown and so your "measurements" are accurate for you.

But IMO, IMX and based on posts for months on these forums... most people who have given any indication encounter shields more often than that, I BELIEVE.

Perhaps you should chime into the sorcerer threads and calm them down by pointing out how rarely shields are used?

That should work since i am certain they would concur with that estimate.

less than 100 hours until Db drops... YAY!!!

dagonbeer · May 2016

STEVIL wrote: »

I find prominent guide to VMSA that says put shield on bar one or die so it seems they apply for pve as well.

Holy non sequitur. Because sorcs need shields to survive this means that ... pve mobs are ... shielded? Gonna file this along with your assertion that Entropy and Surge make a great combo.

Which means I probably shouldn't bother. Ah hell, one more.

STEVIL wrote: »

So, sorry, but "unshielded" and "vast majority" do not go together for expectations unless you are including the gross of the normal pve content mobs where frankly the percentage diff dps between sharpened and training doesn't matter one bit.

Please point out the pve bosses (or mobs for that matter) which have shields that you're supposed to blast through. 11% difference in dps is substantial when bosses have 20 million hp or you're trying for leaderboards. That's more than most (all?) 5 piece bonuses.

STEVIL · May 2016

dagonbeer wrote: »

Gonna file this along with your assertion that Entropy and Surge make a great combo.

.

You know at this rate you will probably be posting claims that i said entropy and surge cure cancer by July 4th.

Your first misrepresentation was at least plausible.

In the other thread, STEVIL suggested using Surge and Entropy together as a viable combination

It lacked the context of course of the skills being potentially useful in the new surge order as a non-ground based dot to proc surge bc the other side of the discusdion was claiming sorcs couldnt dot well bcuz even in pve their ground based dots were easily avoided.

Someone else even posted a build iirc with surge and degen morph as an example of adjustments they were making.

But dont let that slow you down.

Meanwhile, i love that while those railing against the snnulment changes saw everyone with shields after DB, now in the sharpness thread its like nobody will be shielded land.

Hi-lair-e-us!!!

But hey, the definition of situational still hasnt changed and DB drops with whatever final tweaks in a coupke days and the world will not end.

code65536 · May 2016

STEVIL, you really need to lay off on the Kool-Aid. Is there a single thread where you aren't defending every unpopular, dubious design decision?

And, yes, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who does mostly PvE. Endgame PvE. That means vMA, vMoL, etc., where DPS optimization matters. For the kinds of people who actually care about traits, about optimization, about min-maxing, it's undeniable that there is a huge gulf between Sharpened and everything else and that if you care about DPS, there is no viable alternative to Sharpened next patch--contrast that with the status quo, where Nirnhoned, Sharpened, and Precise are all within the same ballpark of utility. Instead of the trait overhaul giving us more meaningful choice between traits, it has instead done the opposite stripped away meaningful choice. No min-maxer that I know disagrees with this assessment.

Frankly, the way you defend this and all the other bad design decisions suggests that you're either a shill, a troll, or that you simply don't play the endgame at a high enough level to understand and appreciate why these decisions are bad. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that it's the latter; you joined the forum only a bit over 2 months ago--is that how long you've been playing the game?

STEVIL · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

STEVIL, you really needs to lay off on the Kool-Aid. Is there a single thread where you don't defending every unpopular, dubious design decision?

And, yes, I'm speaking from the perspective of someone who does mostly PvE. Endgame PvE. That means vMA, vMoL, etc., where DPS optimization matters. For the kinds of people who actually care about traits, about optimization, about min-maxing, it's undeniable that there is a huge gulf between Sharpened and everything else and that if you care about DPS, there is no viable alternative to Sharpened next patch--contrast that with the status quo, where Nirnhoned, Sharpened, and Precise are all within the same ballpark of utility. Instead of the trait overhaul giving us more meaningful choice between traits, it has instead done the opposite stripped away meaningful choice. No min-maxer that I know disagrees with this assessment.

Frankly, the way you defend this and all the other bad design decisions suggests that either you're a shill, a troll, or that you simply don't play the game at a high enough level to understand and appreciate why these decisions are bad.

I dont defend every unpopular decision or every dubious one or every bad one.

Yet again the unmitigated, unrestrained hyperbole (nice word for misrepresentation or lie) is the first recourse.
And then checking out the last sentrnce, we again see name calling or denegration returns out of the toolbox as the last resort.
In between, opinion as gospel.

Following the blueprint.

But just because its a holiday weekend and i feel like providing evidence of your intentional blindness or misrepresentstion...
I have posted thruout these various threads in pts:
Multiple options for improving sorc pets, that it is needed and that the direction they took (beefing attacks for them) was imo wrong direction.
Said from get go new surge would likely see value!per tick raised (and it was and may be again at launch)
Said shields would likely see extension (one did) and recommended they add end ofvdhield effects for sorc shields to help in the new shield order.
Said the dark exchange upgrade shouldninstead be spammable aoe self-centered burst with stamina morph (passives make these heals)

Could go on... but no point. Those are sufficient to show your inaccuracy.

Raging and railing from the self-proclaimed angry mob with pitchforks and torches coupled with the blueprint you showed... educational to say the least.

Sun still came up.
World did not end.
Sorc class was not deleted as was requested.
In non-rage threads on general some people are excited about stam sorcs and under combat some people eyeing respec.

Just because the doomsaying, end of worlders dominate this thread and use tsctics like you just showed to try and quell other opinions doesnt change the facts, no matter how many of them they either ignore or misrepresent.

Ymmv but, in spite of your tactics, in a few days DB arrives with tweaks and adjustments and certainly more to follow and I and others are looking forward to it. My first new slot will be stamsorc.

You have a great weekend.