Official Feedback Thread for Item Traits

code65536

sAnn92 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Hi Zos, I believe there is a bug regarding trait stats. A Nirnhoned staffs and 2-Handed Weapons grants 11% extra spell and weapon dmge and a Sharpened one 5160 penetration. But a one-handed weapon gives 11% extra dmge and 2580 penetration each.
If Nirnhoned weapons are supposed to work as every other trait, Staffs and 2-Handed weapons should grant 22% extra spell and weapon dmge.
@code65536

This is not a bug.

Like Infused, Nirnhoned on weapons is now a per-item trait. As such, it does not (and should not) receive the 1H half-potency effect. It is no longer a character-wide trait and it now affects only the item tooltip of that item.

So for a 2H staff, your staff's SD contribution increases form 1335 to 1481; this is an 11% increase. This 11% bonus does not affect any other source of SD. For dual-wielding 1H weapons, the SD contribution of the main weapon increases from 1335 to 1481 (11%), and the SD contribution from the offhand weapon increases from 267 to 296 (11%). Overall, dual-nirn swords will now contribute 1778 SD instead of 1602 SD. This is, again, only a 11% increase. Not a 22% increase, because the 11% is applied only for that traited item.

Emma_Overload

Armitas wrote: »

To me it seems like nirnhoned is fine but penetration is too high. Sharpened is -7% mitigation for one piece, -14% for two. That is a whole lot of damage that is trivily obtained. Throw in maul/mace passives and it just gets absurd. 5 gold heavy armor is around 21% mitigation, only 1% higher than the maul/mace penetration passives. You sacrifice a lot for that mitigation, but the penetration to completely overcome it is a mere triviality. Penetration needs to be balanced.

I disagree. Penetration has been too weak the last couple patches, it was time for a buff. The correct way to fix Nirnhoned, in my opinion, is to simply increase the damage until it's comparable to Sharpened. I just tested with another player, and the Sharpened did about 3% more damage to me versus Nirnhoned. My Spell Resist was around 20K, which seems typical for PvP. If they added another 100 points of Spell/Weapon Damage to Nirnhoned, I bet the damage would be close to the same.

SanTii.92

code65536 wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno Hi Zos, I believe there is a bug regarding trait stats. A Nirnhoned staffs and 2-Handed Weapons grants 11% extra spell and weapon dmge and a Sharpened one 5160 penetration. But a one-handed weapon gives 11% extra dmge and 2580 penetration each.
If Nirnhoned weapons are supposed to work as every other trait, Staffs and 2-Handed weapons should grant 22% extra spell and weapon dmge.
@code65536

This is not a bug. Thank you for tagging me, though it feels like I'm constantly having to correct this misunderstanding.

Like Infused, Nirnhoned on weapons is now a per-item trait. As such, it does not (and should not) receive the 1H half-potency effect. It is no longer a character-wide trait and it now affects only the item tooltip of that item.

So for a 2H staff, your staff's SD contribution increases form 1335 to 1481; this is an 11% increase. This 11% bonus does not affect any other source of SD. For dual-wielding 1H weapons, the SD contribution of the main weapon increases from 1335 to 1481 (11%), and the SD contribution from the offhand weapon increases from 267 to 296 (11%). Overall, dual-nirn swords will now contribute 1778 SD instead of 1602 SD. This is, again, only a 11% increase. Not a 22% increase, because the 11% is applied only for that traited item.

I see, thanks for clarifying this for me. I do believe then that Nirn should be buffed up.

Joy_Division

ManDraKE wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

And there are other ways to avoid attacks than dodge roll spamming.

and there are other ways to avoid damage than block spamming. Seriously, you won't win this one lol

I'm not trying to "win." You made a point that dodge roll spamming had a huge penalty to it (which it does) and then said block does not (which is incorrect, the no stam regen is a penalty and a significant one at that). Both ways also have ways to overcome their respective side effects.

It is debatable which penalty is more punitive, but to suggest one has large disadvantages while the other does not is specious at best.

Bashev

@ZOS_GinaBruno and @Wrobel
Some traits are removed from the loot table. Now with the changes please do not forget to bring them back. In PTS the reward mails for PvP are clear example. Currently you cannot get an item with sturdy or well fited trait.

Armitas

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

To me it seems like nirnhoned is fine but penetration is too high. Sharpened is -7% mitigation for one piece, -14% for two. That is a whole lot of damage that is trivily obtained. Throw in maul/mace passives and it just gets absurd. 5 gold heavy armor is around 21% mitigation, only 1% higher than the maul/mace penetration passives. You sacrifice a lot for that mitigation, but the penetration to completely overcome it is a mere triviality. Penetration needs to be balanced.

I disagree. Penetration has been too weak the last couple patches, it was time for a buff. The correct way to fix Nirnhoned, in my opinion, is to simply increase the damage until it's comparable to Sharpened. I just tested with another player, and the Sharpened did about 3% more damage to me versus Nirnhoned. My Spell Resist was around 20K, which seems typical for PvP. If they added another 100 points of Spell/Weapon Damage to Nirnhoned, I bet the damage would be close to the same.

Edit: I relied on my memory and I screwed up my math for the penetration from sharpened and it is closer to what you experienced, ~4% which I corrected in the original. 4% per trait isn't bad. The maul/mace passives are still a problem though.

I am a bit surprised it is only 3% but I don't want to start doing math right now because it's not about the damage you do it's about the investment you take. On the heavy armor side you sacrifice a lot of stats and damage to overcome the sustainability of heavy armor, you also sacrifice a lot of traits for reinforced all to get 21% mitigation. What do you sacrifice for 20% physical penetration? Answer: a single skill point in the weapon line passive and a maul or mace. Why should 1 skill point entirely overcome the highest mitigation set in the game? Why is everyone, in any armor, essentially running around with 0 armor for the majority of their encounters? That doesn't seem like a good system to me. Armor should actually play a role in PvP, instead of just being a container for armor line passives.

helediron

Refuse2GrowUp wrote: »

helediron wrote: »

Nirnhoned and Reinforced are almost the same now. Could Reinforced favor more physical resistance and nirn more spellres?

No, keep them as they are. Someone posted a break even in this or another thread; take a look at that.

I had already looked and tested myself. They are still almost the same. I still would like to see them separated more.

potirondb16_ESO

Hi guys, a lot of good thing have been done with the new traits, but I did realise Something !

Maestrom Weapon won't cut it anymore !!! Yup, I don't know if you guys notice but some specific enchant can do up to 6k when they proc (actually only one, other do around 3k) I just don't see any maestrom weapon cut it now ! You guys might want to take a look at it see if I'm right.

Vangy

potirondb16_ESO wrote: »

Hi guys, a lot of good thing have been done with the new traits, but I did realise Something !

Maestrom Weapon won't cut it anymore !!! Yup, I don't know if you guys notice but some specific enchant can do up to 6k when they proc (actually only one, other do around 3k) I just don't see any maestrom weapon cut it now ! You guys might want to take a look at it see if I'm right.

Taking maelstrom daggers for example... How is that going to be more useful than the daggers 4k bonus power to next dot? My stam DK basically is never going to change weapons ever... Until a new dagger comes out with the same effect lol. I dare say even if gear cap increases by 10CP id still use malestrom daggers lol.

elium85

@Vangy I think @potirondb16_ESO was probably referring to Staves. IMHO, they do seem underpowered now compared to the current weapon enchants available.

Maelstrom Inferno - 189 Spell Damage + Poison

Moondancer Inferno (w/Jewelry) - 374 Spell Damage w/75% uptime + 129 Spell Damage

While poisons are decent, they seem to provide named buffs which means in group content they won't stack.

(I am making an assumption that Gold Moondancer Jewelry is equivalent to Purple Willpower jewelry in endgame PvE)

Cinbri

Also Weighted 17% to give 1 ult on 1h weapon is kinda weak.

Cinbri

Why does Sturdy reduce block cost 3% but well-fitted reduce roll-dodge cost and sprint cost on 5%?

susmitds

Guys have a look here.
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262644/zos-please-balance-weapon-traits#latest

Mojmir

watch those nirn prices plummet

andy_s

Although the new traits are better than we had before, they are still useless for best-in-slot pve gear:




(images are taken from @YoloWizard PTS stream)

Good luck farming divines parts now when there are all possible traits in the loot table...

GreenSoup2HoT

Can someone help me out?

What would be the best trait for someone who uses Duel Dagger's in 7 medium?
(Disregard undaunted and swords for the time being because i want to use 7 medium and 2 daggers for style reasons )

Thanks in advance!

RoyJade

Look at Asayre's topic, he already calculate everything for divine, precise and sharpened

ContraTempo

Alanar wrote: »

Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold daggers.
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 4.5%.
.
.
.
Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold heavy chests
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 11%

Am I missing something? This looks like a HUGE nerf. Old numbers with WHITE items were +42% for armor, +84% for weapons, and that went up as you applied tempers. Applying this to all armor and weapons was how you got your armor and weapons skills up to 50. Admittedly, it only matters while you are leveling those skills but wow, reducing 42% to less than 5%?

Along with the elimination of exploration trait, ZoS, did you think we were leveling characters too fast? Do I just not understand what's happening here?

RoyJade

The exploration trait give only a few xp, the new training can give a 86-91,5% xp bonus (so 75-80% with a full purple gear, who is easy to get). It's enormous, nearly the anniversary bonus everytime on normal xp, cp xp and skill xp. I call it a good trade.

Hektik_V

ContraTempo wrote: »

Alanar wrote: »

Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold daggers.
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 4.5%.
.
.
.
Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold heavy chests
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 11%

Am I missing something? This looks like a HUGE nerf. Old numbers with WHITE items were +42% for armor, +84% for weapons, and that went up as you applied tempers. Applying this to all armor and weapons was how you got your armor and weapons skills up to 50. Admittedly, it only matters while you are leveling those skills but wow, reducing 42% to less than 5%?

Along with the elimination of exploration trait, ZoS, did you think we were leveling characters too fast? Do I just not understand what's happening here?

The old numbers that you're describing are for the skill line, so a training bow increased how quickly you advanced through the bow leveling tree by 84%.

Whereas now training gives an experience bonus to all experience coming in, so your weapon line levels, vampire levels, class skill tree levels, character level, etc.

ContraTempo

Hektik_V wrote: »

ContraTempo wrote: »

Alanar wrote: »

Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold daggers.
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 4.5%.
.
.
.
Here are the tooltip descriptions for c160 gold heavy chests
Training Increase experience gained from kills by 11%

Am I missing something? This looks like a HUGE nerf. Old numbers with WHITE items were +42% for armor, +84% for weapons, and that went up as you applied tempers. Applying this to all armor and weapons was how you got your armor and weapons skills up to 50. Admittedly, it only matters while you are leveling those skills but wow, reducing 42% to less than 5%?

Along with the elimination of exploration trait, ZoS, did you think we were leveling characters too fast? Do I just not understand what's happening here?

The old numbers that you're describing are for the skill line, so a training bow increased how quickly you advanced through the bow leveling tree by 84%.

Whereas now training gives an experience bonus to all experience coming in, so your weapon line levels, vampire levels, class skill tree levels, character level, etc.

Hmm. But leveling a skill line also seemed to add to XP. So at best this keeps the add for XP about the same but greatly slows the progression of weapon and armor skills. Especially since I loved me some training traits and put that stuff on everything, at least until those skills lines hit 50.

And remember, this will also affect when you can add new skills. Slower progress up the tree means longer before you can use things like Steel Tornado or Snipe. It also makes it way harder to switch weapon skill trees, like if you decide that with Wrecking Blow wreked, you will switch to the Dual Wield skill tree. But now you can't just stick the training trait on your flashy new weapons and quickly level them. I see more grinding in our future.

The only advantage I see is for characters who have their skills trees all leveled. For them it will continue to give a small XP bonus. But only if they give up traits like sharpened.

Flak

First of all, I really like the idea of having more viable traits and I don't mind recrafting armor, that's just the way it goes and it keeps the economy rolling.
BUT what about dropped BoP Sets? Items from vMA, IC Dungeons and MoL take ridiculously long to farmed and there's always a chance that you will never get them. Now with more traits dropping, the chance gets even lower.
So I think there are two options, either making a fair loot system that let's you pick the gear that you want (even if it takes 50 runs/item). Or you have to offer a traitchange.
I would favor the first option but you have to implement at least one of them. If it stays like this I won't even try to farm gear anymore after the update.
Btw: Keep in mind that in addition the armor levels will be raised so you will have to repeat this every one or two DLCs. Noone in the world has the time and patience to do that.

Joy_Division

I like the idea here and this is long overdue. However, this still needs adjustment or it's going to lead to more (unnecessary) frustration.

You ask "are there any traits that you still don’t find appealing?"

The problem is that depends. If I am a new player to this game, I would really want training weapons to drop and prosperous armor. If I have 8 VR16s and have just completed vMA or MoL, I would genuinely be annoyed to see these traits on my reward pieces. Also, I am going to guess Powered is going to drop on Inferno Staffs which it probably shouldn't.

For end-game and end-PvP campaign "reward" drops, ZoS really ought to make an effort to ensure economic and leveling traits are not in the loot table and niche traits apply to the appropriate weapons.

d8rmir

I don't see how these changes can make any trait more appealing, at least from a PvE DD/healer perspective. Actually the very opposite happens, as Nirnhoned in now unbelievably weak.
The only appealing traits remain sharpened and precise (which is better than the new powered, even heal-wise) for weapons, divines (infused if need be) for armor.

This is only going to make the grind for endgame gear harder, so please just don't. Or at least don't add any new trait to the current loot tables.

Armitas

Question.

If I can reach the mitigation cap in Light Armor and acquire all the former block cost of heavy armor to my light armor pieces then why should I ever use heavy armor to tank?

Note: Any benefits of the heavy armor passives can be re-acquired via the freed up slots formerly dedicated to sustain for heavy armor. Self healing and heavy attacks with constant self bubbles (like igneous shield or harness magicka) between periods of blocking can overcome the lack of stam regen on block.

So with the decoupling of "tanking" from the heavy armor, why shouldn't I just wear light armor for tanking?

UnBelievaBill

sAnn92 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

SublimeSparo wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Nirnhoned is now a useless trait. At CP160 gold, it grants an additional 146 extra WD/SD. Compare to the 5160 extra penetration from Sharpened.

For a trait that is so difficult to obtain, turning it from BiS to such crap is... disappointing.

so i have to remake nearly all my f'kin weapons. What an utter pisstake.
Sorc 1 staff, 2 swords
Dk 2 staves
NB 1 staff 2 swords
Templar 2 swords 2 staffs
...
There just aren't words

Would you rather have the same gear forever then? geez.

I applaud this change.

I wouldn't mind grinding for new/ better gear/sets, but ruining my current gear isn't the same thing

Ruining?? How so. Cut off with the dramatic reaction, please.

The value of said materials to make those pieces, kutas, potent nirncrux, gold tempers... Seriously dude? An overhaul of these traits now with no fair compensation or consideration of what the players have put into them is totally uncalled for!

Septimus_Magna

In the current state I think sharpened has been designed to be effective against the wrong armor type.

It should offer a big benefit vs heavy armored targets and a small benefit vs light armored targets.

And the 11% value on nirnhoned weapons feels too low, this is the rarest trait in the game so it should offer a good bonus.
Whats the point of having this rare trait when it roughly as good as precise which can be found everywhere?

Cinbri

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

In the current state I think sharpened has been designed to be effective against the wrong armor type.

It should offer a big benefit vs heavy armored targets and a small benefit vs light armored targets.

No, since it was one of the reasons why heavy armor was uneffective in PvP.
Regarding Sturdy - why not to add 3% reduce cost of Break CC in addition to block cost? It is multiplicative anyway.

Septimus_Magna

Cinbri wrote: »

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

In the current state I think sharpened has been designed to be effective against the wrong armor type.

It should offer a big benefit vs heavy armored targets and a small benefit vs light armored targets.

No, since it was one of the reasons why heavy armor was uneffective in PvP.
Regarding Sturdy - why not to add 3% reduce cost of Break CC in addition to block cost? It is multiplicative anyway.

So precise, nirnhoned and sharpened are all designed to counter light armor.

What trait do we pick to counter heavy armor?

Armitas

A lot of heavy armor users want block cost reduction recoupled with heavy armor and removed from item traits. If you need something to fill that slot I believe Bastion would make a good replacement trait for it. Bastion - Armor trait "Increase shields by X%".

This could be a point of balance that will allow you to control Defenses that run parallel to Offense such as magicka and stamina based shields. By slotting Bastion you are getting defense at the cost of offense such as divines or infused. The suggestion is a raw thought which will take some fine tuning before it can be introduced accurately and appropriately.