Official Feedback Thread for Item Traits

Agency79

Yea, I don't even know about balancing it and all that. I can say with reasonable certainty that decisive is a pile of crap and unlikely to get much better.

I generate 20 ultimate because of a passive - decisive gives me a 1/6 chance to generate 1 additional ultimate - big whoop. That means that for every time this passive generates me 120 ultimate, decisive will generate me 1. That's less than a 1% gain

Otoh, if I suck at generating ultimate and use major heroism only, for every six times I generate 3 ultimate, I will generate 1 extra ultimate. That's less than a 6% gain on ***-poor ultimate generation.

Even doubling the values and adding together a two dozen sources of ultimate generation still leaves me depressed at its lack of utility.

Decisive is much worse than it appears to be at first glance. I don't think it's salvageable due to the uptime issues that we'd run into if it was buffed to actually be good.

MichYodias

I would like to see reinforced or nirnhoned changed before live. They make all these interesting traits and then have two do the same thing come on. Make reinforced reduce aoe damage or reduce a percentage of snares. Like give it anything other than armor.

Saucy_Jack

Prosperous: said it before, I'll say it again: if in addition to upping mob dropped gold it also upped mob loot quality/quantity like a version of the treasure hunter perk except for mobs instead of chests, it'd be worth it to take a hit on DPS/sustainability stats in order to have it.

Secondly, in regards to people hating the training change: I LOVE the training change. Does it encourage grinding? Yes. But because you're technically level 50 with whatever amount of CP, max-level/CP players just had a whole faction's worth of highest-level grinding spots open up to them, rather than congregating in Hew's or Wroth. Now every mob in the entire third faction will give the same exp as mobs from those two zones. Therefore, grinding won't be the debacle it is now (with people hogging the best grinding spots) since there'll be enough spots for everyone, really.

GreenSoup2HoT

@Saucy_Jack

Enemy's will still give different exp values based on cp lvl. Theres almost no difference to the levels and experience gained from the enemy's in db compared to live. Instead of v12 mobs they are lvl 50 cp 120. Giving exp based on cp 120 not lvl 50. This was just an easy switch to get rid of veteran ranks.

Just like how old v12 gear is now cp 120 gear. Its still worse then cp 160 gear. So grinding in areas with enemy's cp 160 will still be the best.

Edit

I stand corrected. All gold zones will now be cp 160. Which does mean there is more places to grind. However silver and bronze zones will still be lower cp ranked. So as a DC player, every zone in EP is now viable to grind (gold zone for DC). This is great news

STEVIL

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

@Saucy_Jack

Enemy's will still give different exp values based on cp lvl. Theres almost no difference to the levels and experience gained from the enemy's in db compared to live. Instead of v12 mobs they are lvl 50 cp 120. Giving exp based on cp 120 not lvl 50. This was just an easy switch to get rid of veteran ranks.

Just like how old v12 gear is now cp 120 gear. Its still worse then cp 160 gear. So grinding in areas with enemy's cp 160 will still be the best.

Edit

I stand corrected. All gold zones will now be cp 160. Which does mean there is more places to grind. However silver and bronze zones will still be lower cp ranked. So as a DC player, every zone in EP is now viable to grind (gold zone for DC). This is great news

Also the final silver is cp160 so every "vet" has six cp160 non-dlc zones in pve.

Ajaxduo

Maybe have the trait work like this; when gaining ultimate gain 1/2/3/4/5 additional ultimate, 4 second cooldown to prevent it stacking. It's not a perfect idea...but in my tests I just couldn't see any reason to take it over defending or infused. RNG = bad, it needs to be a guaranteed proc.

Natas013

Nvm I didn't read far enough, my question got answered.

DDuke

Still hoping that Precise, Sharpened & Nirnhoned get rebalanced before the patch goes Live.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/262295/nirnhoned-precise-and-sharpened/p1


Nirnhoned being the weakest choice in terms of DPS doesn't sit very well with me, especially considering how much more difficult the trait is to make.

hrothbern

Joy_Division wrote: »

In general, I am satisfied enough with most of these at the moment as they have seemed to open more competitive options and should certainly help with the frustration itemization that was one of ESO's biggest weaknesses. Specific comments:

Weapons

• Powered (healing): Excellent idea. A bit too narrow and could probably either use a little buff or do something in addition to add healing. As a healer myself, I still probably would want precise for the versatility, but that's just MHO.
• Charged (increase status effect): In a word uninspiring. Weapons with it will be deconned. You can do better here ZoS! Suggest: +% percent damage to light and heavy attacks (you do seem to love giving us sets for that, how about some synergy?).
• Infused (augments enchants): Excellent coupled with the increased effectiveness of said enchants. Good job!
• Defending: Legit option.
• Sharpened (penetration): Probably the best. Though not universally true.
• Decisive (ultimate gain): Exactly the type of bonus I think is best, something not quantifiable, yet desirable. Huge problem though - it's not going to generate enough ultimate to beat out the other options (except perhaps Charged). Would you agree average ultimate generation is always getting the +3 per tick? 30 ticks in one minute = roughly 20 extra ultimate gained ... for a player with using both hand for a weapon (tanks only get half this). Even a ultimate gaining machine who 50% of the time somehow gets some other form of ultimate per tick will only get 30 extra ultimate ... assuming this set allows for multiple procs on the same tick. Nova costs 240. Standard costs 250. I'll take a sharpened weapon rather than wait the 8 minutes I can get to drop an additional ultimate.
• Nirnhoned (higher weapon/spell power): Ideal Vs. shielded players with critical resistance. A needed option.

In general, I do think penetration has always been a bit too obvious best-in-slot. I would like to see more attention paid to those traits whose power is more subtle such as decisive, charged, and perhaps powered (simply because it is so niche) because I still think ZoS is going to get a lot of /feedback about frustration getting a non-sharpened reward weapon.

Speaking of reward drops, please make note of Powered's specific function (i.e. no maces!).

Armor

• Sturdy (reduce block): Heavy armor users aren't going to be happy their best passive is now on this trait. I like the idea of offering reduce block to other armors, but not sure stripping it from heavy is a good idea. Suggest: Keep, but do not make this a multiplicative bonus and do not allow it to stack with bracing (which I think in some form belongs with heavy armor).
• Well-fitted (reduce penalty to sprint and dodge-rolling): Pretty solid now.
• Prosperous (increased gold loot): An excellent set for folks starting the game. Please do *not* have this on reward loot tables.
• Nirnhoned and Reinforced (increase resistance): I understand one is better for "big" pieces and the other is better for "small' pieces, however this is totally redundant, a waste of a means to add diversity, and players will get annoyed when the "wrong" trait appears on their rewards. Suggest changing Nirnhoned: it's magical and mysterious (and rare) so it shouldn't have a generic bonus. Small chance for ultimate regen, reducing the cost to break free, tiny chance to absorb attacks, increase the potency of ultimates, maybe something to make it the light armor trait defense of choice since well-fitted is the medium armor trait, etc, something more interesting and useful than a re-skinned reinforced please!

I'm not sure Reinforced was on the same level as infused/divines so I am surprised it wasn't buffed and Nirnhoned, a rare trait, was relegated to performing the same function. I think many players will still be unsatisfied with reinforced Valkyn Skoira hats and (now) nirnhoned Engine Guardian Pauldrons. I think it would behoove ZoS to *really* make an effort to at least make all of the traits appealing in some way, which would go a long, long way to reducing the number of threads on these forms complaining about the loot system, begging for tokens, and in general alleviate the frustrations players have constantly repeating the same content over and over again because some traits are just undesirable in light of others.

@Joydivisionajsb14_ESO ,
you say:
Nirnhoned and Reinforced (increase resistance): I understand one is better for "big" pieces and the other is better for "small' pieces, however this is totally redundant, a waste of a means to add diversity, and players will get annoyed when the "wrong" trait appears on their rewards. Suggest changing Nirnhoned: it's magical and mysterious (and rare) so it shouldn't have a generic bonus. Small chance for ultimate regen, reducing the cost to break free, tiny chance to absorb attacks, increase the potency of ultimates, maybe something to make it the light armor trait defense of choice since well-fitted is the medium armor trait, etc, something more interesting and useful than a re-skinned reinforced please!

I am inclined to agree with you there:
Nirnhoned on Armor, though improving Resist on lesser Armor pieces compared to Re-inforced, feels also to me as kind of redundant for such a special trait.

Why not using Nirnhoned on Armor as a "Snake Skin" that increases your resistance against Poisons !
Similar to Snakeblood and negative effects on Potions.

Perhaps something as 20% less effect of a Poison per piece
(multiplicative with his self, so for example 3 pieces with traits reduce roughly the negative Poison effect with 50%.
(100% - 80%^3 )

A special trait to counter the special and new Poison thing coming in DB.

code65536

Any word on the balancing of the DPS weapon traits?

Making nirnhoned be an 11% overall WD/SD buff (vs. an 11% buff for just that item) would go a ways to make it viable compared to sharpened.

While people say that nirnhoned will still be useful in fights against shielded enemies (where resistance and crit are useless), that's still a very niche use case (and sharpened will still be better once the shield goes down), and it seems unlikely someone would pick a trait with such a narrow range of optimality esp. given its rarity and difficulty to acquire.

STEVIL

Fyi comment from eso live abt shsrp better dps than nirn or precise answer was basically "yes and it should bc nirn and precise boost both damage snd heal while sharp only boost dmg."

code65536

STEVIL wrote: »

Fyi comment from eso live abt shsrp better dps than nirn or precise answer was basically "yes and it should bc nirn and precise boost both damage snd heal while sharp only boost dmg."

The problem with this is that the magnitude of difference is huge. We're not talking about Sharpened being slightly better. We're talking about it being thrice as good as Nirnhoned and Precise. Being able to slightly boost non-damage abilities does not come close to making up for this magnitude of a difference.

Also, I take issue with Wrobel calling Sharpened "situational". It's not "situational" when in the vast majority of situations, it's clearly better. Instead, Nirnhoned is the one that deserves the "situational" label. I don't mind there being a situational trait, but let's not make it a trait that people have invested lots of time and resources into acquiring. And let's not make it the trait that is currently the undisputed best.

Finally, there are plenty of "situational" traits already: Decisive, Powered, etc. There needs to be meaningful choices among the mainstream traits. Instead, for the mainstream (i.e., majority of situations), we've gone from three viable traits (nirn, sharpened, precise) down to just one.

This is not balance.

Agency79

code65536 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Fyi comment from eso live abt shsrp better dps than nirn or precise answer was basically "yes and it should bc nirn and precise boost both damage snd heal while sharp only boost dmg."

The problem with this is that the magnitude of difference is huge. We're not talking about Sharpened being slightly better. We're talking about it being thrice as good as Nirnhoned and Precise. Being able to slightly boost non-damage abilities does not come close to making up for this magnitude of a difference.

Also, I take issue with Wrobel calling Sharpened "situational". It's not "situational" when in the vast majority of situations, it's clearly better. Instead, Nirnhoned is the one that deserves the "situational" label. I don't mind there being a situational trait, but let's not make it a trait that people have invested lots of time and resources into acquiring. And let's not make it the trait that is currently the undisputed best.

Finally, there are plenty of "situational" traits already: Decisive, Powered, etc. There needs to be meaningful choices among the mainstream traits. Instead, for the mainstream (i.e., majority of situations), we've gone from three viable traits (nirn, sharpened, precise) down to just one.

This is not balance.

Small point of contention - precise is the better dps trait in situations where monsters resistances are being debuffed to 0 or close (e.g. trial bosses).

Sharpened is a better dps trait for the remainder of PVE situations.

Nirnhoned is 3rd, and that it also boosts healing is a bit of a silly argument for its relative weakness among these 3 traits. At least make it moderately stronger than precise for doing both given how rare the trait stones are.

code65536

Agency79 wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Fyi comment from eso live abt shsrp better dps than nirn or precise answer was basically "yes and it should bc nirn and precise boost both damage snd heal while sharp only boost dmg."

The problem with this is that the magnitude of difference is huge. We're not talking about Sharpened being slightly better. We're talking about it being thrice as good as Nirnhoned and Precise. Being able to slightly boost non-damage abilities does not come close to making up for this magnitude of a difference.

Also, I take issue with Wrobel calling Sharpened "situational". It's not "situational" when in the vast majority of situations, it's clearly better. Instead, Nirnhoned is the one that deserves the "situational" label. I don't mind there being a situational trait, but let's not make it a trait that people have invested lots of time and resources into acquiring. And let's not make it the trait that is currently the undisputed best.

Finally, there are plenty of "situational" traits already: Decisive, Powered, etc. There needs to be meaningful choices among the mainstream traits. Instead, for the mainstream (i.e., majority of situations), we've gone from three viable traits (nirn, sharpened, precise) down to just one.

This is not balance.

Small point of contention - precise is the better dps trait in situations where monsters resistances are being debuffed to 0 or close (e.g. raids).

Sharpened is a better dps trait for the remainder of PVE situations.

Nirnhoned is a distant 3rd, and that it also boosts healing is a bit of a silly argument for its relative weakness among these 3 traits. At least make it be as useful as precise in that case.

For magicka users, what debuffs do you have? Major Breach, which is around 5K. The Concentration passive. Spell Erosion. And maybe the Infallible Aether 5p, though it's not clear what kind of uptime we'd see with that in practice. So, yes, there is the possibility of overpenetration if you're wielding a sharpened staff. But you can just shift your Spell Erosion points into Elfborn.

In any case, Precise isn't a bad trait per se, and on Live, it's competitive with Sharpened. But on the PTS, while Precise remains unchanged, Sharpened has gotten buffed substantially, so Sharpened still has the edge as long as your CP is set to avoid overpenetration.

dagonbeer

code65536 wrote: »

Also, I take issue with Wrobel calling Sharpened "situational". It's not "situational" when in the vast majority of situations, it's clearly better. Instead, Nirnhoned is the one that deserves the "situational" label. I don't mind there being a situational trait, but let's not make it a trait that people have invested lots of time and resources into acquiring. And let's not make it the trait that is currently the undisputed best.

I agree. When most of the game focuses around killing things, when a trait is on a *weapon*, the ability to cause more damage isn't situational. It's the other traits which does less damage that are situational. Take precise: it can crit heals! But do no damage vs. shields. And half the pvp population is wearing gear that counteracts crits. It's better if you manage to reduce a foe's resistance to nil. But only if. That's situational.

I like the direction of the traits in this patch, but they really need to make sharpened/precise/nirn competitive with each other. Reducing sharpened by half is probably a good start; it'll still be better than precise or nirn, but inferior in specific cases. (Nirn probably needs to be buffed a bit too.)

STEVIL

OK, i understand "situational" to me the comparison varies by circumstances outside the elements themselves. PERIOD.

It doesn't say "mpst of the time" or "almost always" or anything.

he didn't say Sharp was situational but the others aren't, so its not in any way sensible to say two of the three ARE situational but the other one isn't.

Thats like saying two are hotter but the third isn't cooler?

Its nonsensical only useful to fuel outrage.

YMMV.

Looks to me like if you want to trade "DPS edge in many circumstances" for "DPS in some PLUS healing in many/all" then you now have that option.

But, for me, with frequent use of the major resistance debuffs and definite chances of hitting 0 resistance the choices are at least more of a question than a slam dunk. Enough that i may well have a pair of weapons i swap in or out for boss encounters vs mobs.

Again... options.

Thats not even yet considering looking at the dedicated healing one.

Jesh

Traits as slots. Make it happen. @Wrobel kept talking about flexibility in equipment with these new reworked traits, but when they are built into items there is no flexibility, there is only RNG and expensive (for endgame) crafting. Charge a fee to change trait currently in the Trait Slot, if you must, but making the equipment system more flexible would be great. It would also alleviate player aggravation with the RNGod, may we forever be in her/his/its (choose one, randomly) good graces.
Trait Slots.

Kozai

Does anyone have a compilation of what the new trait values are?

clocksstoppe

I don't get what you guys are complaining about. Nirnhoned being BiS would be horrible for most players because it is a horrible trait to obtain. Obviously the developers chose to not do it because it would make the game frustrating for those who don't want to spend a ton of money on it. I'm glad the developers chose to cut people a slack instead of making nirnhoned "mandatory".

TheSpin

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

hrothbern

TheSpin wrote: »

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

At least for the crafted gear

My Tank gear will now need partially Sturdy.
And the 8 tempers AND the tri-stat Hakeijo Rune are expensive.

Tevalaur

Kozai wrote: »

Does anyone have a compilation of what the new trait values are?

http://www.sunshine-daydream.us/ESO/traits.html

STEVIL

TheSpin wrote: »

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

So here is a questiom.

Which is more beneficial: a single gold set that is not the best traits for a given circumstance OR several purple sets with different traits so you switch into the "best" when needed?

Eas007

I get the impen trait getting less durability dmg. It makes sense from a PvP point of view. I do think sturdy should get it too though. Let's say you run a dungeon with a traditional 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps setup. The tank will take alot more dmg holding aggro, thus suffering alot more durability dmg. He needs to repair this after/during the run. Making the dungeon run less profitable for the tank as he will have to spent some of his earnings to repair. Adding the less durability dmg to the sturdy and maybe even reinforced/nirn for armor traits would remedy this a bit.

code65536

Eas007 wrote: »

I get the impen trait getting less durability dmg. It makes sense from a PvP point of view. I do think sturdy should get it too though. Let's say you run a dungeon with a traditional 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps setup. The tank will take alot more dmg holding aggro, thus suffering alot more durability dmg. He needs to repair this after/during the run. Making the dungeon run less profitable for the tank as he will have to spent some of his earnings to repair. Adding the less durability dmg to the sturdy and maybe even reinforced/nirn for armor traits would remedy this a bit.

Durability damage comes from only two sources:

• Earning XP from PvE combat.
• Dying in PvE.

The amount of damage that you take is irrelevant (unless you die, of course). A tank on the front line taking all the hits and a healer standing in the back taking zero hits will suffer the exact same durability loss.

This is why people see massive durability loss when grinding XP, and why people see zero durability loss when fighting enemies that are so underleveled that they grant zero XP.

Joy_Division

STEVIL wrote: »

TheSpin wrote: »

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

So here is a questiom.

Which is more beneficial: a single gold set that is not the best traits for a given circumstance OR several purple sets with different traits so you switch into the "best" when needed?

A gold set that is the best trait because that it what people who play 10 hours a day I am competing against will have.

Ideally, it would be as such where the was no obvious "best" trait and no obvious bad ones, so I would not feel gimped when using a certain trait.

STEVIL

Joy_Division wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

TheSpin wrote: »

@Jesh hit it right on the head. There's no such thing as flexibility when it takes 8 tempers for a yellow and you can't change traits.

I think the crafting in this game is a very good system, but at this point I feel it's ready to be expanded upon. A system to Reforge gear to change traits would be a great start.

So here is a questiom.

Which is more beneficial: a single gold set that is not the best traits for a given circumstance OR several purple sets with different traits so you switch into the "best" when needed?

A gold set that is the best trait because that it what people who play 10 hours a day I am competing against will have.

Ideally, it would be as such where the was no obvious "best" trait and no obvious bad ones, so I would not feel gimped when using a certain trait.

Is it always/mostly/rarely the case that "best trait best set" is the same for:
Magblade light armor ranged attacker.
Dk heavy armor melee
Gang of 4 mixed group
Gang of 10-15 mixed group

Or is there much more homogenity of adversaries than i think?

Jesh

TBH being able to "reforge" or have "Trait Slots" (or whatever you want to call it) would allow for much more freedom of experimentation. And IF (and I say IF because you may not want to do this) it also works with dropped gear then you can appease those that have been so smited by RNGeezus. Maybe crafted gear could have a low "reforge fee" and dropped gear a higher one?
With dropped gear, some sets look like their traits were chosen very specifically to give that set its flavor, whereas other dropped sets seem to give random traits with larger loot tables. Maybe the gear that falls in that latter category could be "reforgeable"? Or just tidy up the loot tables VERY VERY significantly.
I personally like the idea of Trait Slots because it would create a boom in experimentation and flexibility without adding too significant a cost to the players. Most players get to endgame, save up that significant amount of gold for gear and then what? Do you really think they are going to experiment with traits, or are they going to look at what the general consensus is for "best trait" and just pick that? They don't have the funds to be creating endgame gear in a whole loads of different traits and that is where @Wrobel 's flexibility in traits argument falls apart. Look at the data, and see what traits are being baked into player's endgame crafted gold gear. I have a strong feeling you will not see the flexibility and diversity you want, and that is because of the crafting system it is tied to.
What about money sinks for players at endgame? Well now they can gear up alts at level 50, and maybe ZOS should just make more of the desirable endgame sets BoE so that we have interesting things to buy on the guild store. These are better options as sinks than everyone looking for the same items with the 1 or 2 traits, because it also gets you that diversity and flexibility.
Just my opinion.

Sallington

Trait reforging NEEDS to be implemented, and some traits need to be "crafting only".

Training and prosperous should ONLY be available on crafted gear, and ONLY through trait reforging if that's ever implemented.

Giraffon

I've said this since the first news of trait changes came out. When this goes live, I want to be able to deconstruct any purple and gold gear for a FULL REFUND of all of the mats used. Just give me a week so I can tear all this crap apart and rebuild it and tear it apart again if I need to until I get it right.

You guys really stuck it to us with this change and it's the least you can do.