Official Feedback Thread for Nightblades

joshhh_nb · May 2016

The only reason to go for a magic melee NB is to take away enemy movement speed through snares and or one shot large groups with VD,Proxy,Soul tether, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno could we please see a revamp in lotus fan and concealed to make it as competitive as a Stam NB? All the changes to nightblade are orientated for Stam builds, where's the love

Jaronking · May 2016

joshhh_nb wrote: »

The only reason to go for a magic melee NB is to take away enemy movement speed through snares and or one shot large groups with VD,Proxy,Soul tether, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno could we please see a revamp in lotus fan and concealed to make it as competitive as a Stam NB? All the changes to nightblade are orientated for Stam builds, where's the love

Magblade is competitive in PVP and PVE stamblade is no where near competitive in PVE and in PVP we are only good for ganking.So we need the help while magblades are competitive in both aspect you guys do not really need a buff while stamblades does.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@Wrobel, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

here are some ideas to revamp useless NB skills and make them better for Stamina(or Magicka)

Active Skills:

1. Reaper Mark(Target mark morph), buff Reapers Mark right now it pales in comparison to piercing mark in every shape and form. Maybe increase the major berserk to 10 secs and add the minor vulnerability debuff(I think it the one that make the target get increased dmg from all sources) for the duration. This change would make you choose between spotting stealth targets or 'reaping' them by marking them for all to burn down.

2. Assassin's Scourge(Grim focus morph), please allows assassins scourge to proc of of every light attack after the first one so that you don't have to recast it after the first one, pretty much allowing for multiple bow procs in 20 sec granted you get the required LA/HA to do so.It will add to dps
Note: this changes will greatly help Archer NBs substitute this skill for that weak slow moving dps skill called snipe

3. Mirage(Blur Morph), This skill is heavily over shadowed by shuffle I think some thing needs to change to this morph. the other one is fine since magblades use it for speed boost but mirage could use some thing else I'm open for suggestions.

4. Dark Shades(Summon Shade Morph), Please make dark shades(double shade morph) deal physical/disease dmg I'd like to have some pets of my own to support me when using a bow and melee NBs can potentially have 3 attackers on 1 for 17 secs the dmg shouldn't be super high but enough to be a threat removing the minor main from this specific morph could compensate for the increased dmg.

5. Prolonged Suffering(Agony Morph), Make this morph deal disease dmg and remove the dot, make it cost stamina and not break on one dot applied to the target any more than one dot should break the stun automatically as well as breaking on every other dmg types(non dots etc.) This change would give NBs more options for ranged stamina CC.

6. Power extraction,(Drain Power morph) I appreciate the dmg type change to the ability but it needs more to be competitive with Steelnado, maybe it could add a snare since you are draining and infecting targets also It was stated in this thread but I'll say it here again remove the hit requirement to proc major brutality this allows NBs to buff up before engagement like Dks and Sorcs with out restricting us to use a 2h.

Passives:

Assassination
-Executioner: allow this passive to give stamina back in addition to magicka

Shadow
Passives are fine as is.

Siphoning
-Magicka flood: allow this passive to grant 8% max stam in addition to magicka

The only issue I see with the magicka flood suggestion is that the siphoning skill line is generously used by magicka but not so much stamina. Personally I think they should add +8% max stamina to either master assassin or executioner since stamina uses ambush, relentless focus, and incapacitating strike.

You're right, Although I sometimes use Siphoning Attacks but the 8% max stam wold be better some where in the assassination passives.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Code2501 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

@Wrobel, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom

3. Mirage(Blur Morph), This skill is heavily over shadowed by shuffle I think some thing needs to change to this morph. the other one is fine since magblades use it for speed boost but mirage could use some thing else I'm open for suggestions.

I think Mirage actually offers more for Mag NB. Crippling Grasp is a better source of major expedition if your playing Mag. Also as you say Evasion and its two morphs exist for Stam so not sure why Stam NB needs another option here.

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

5. Prolonged Suffering(Agony Morph), Make this morph deal disease dmg and remove the dot, make it cost stamina and not break on one dot applied to the target any more than one dot should break the stun automatically as well as breaking on every other dmg types(non dots etc.) This change would give NBs more options for ranged stamina CC.

Without going into the debate over the volume of stam vs mag skills available, there are plenty of ranged stam CC options available in Bow and one in DW, staff has Destructive touch and the then Mag needs to rely on class skills... I don't see why you'd want to remove ranged CC options for Mag, even if they suck presently.

I agree the rest of your points make sense.

Now that you mention it I does seems silly to take away from Magblades although I assumed that most magblades use the other morph because I restores magicka.

As for Bow and DW CCs.... the only hard bow cc is Scatter shot(and morphs) and they require you to be in 10m range, good for melee builds that use bow for utility but bad for archers because 10m is less than spammable gap closers, bombard is a soft CC it doesn't stun it roots

DW doesn't have any hard CC skills if I recall correctly. So you're left with SnB and 2H for CC option other than fear (which is expensive).

Apherius · May 2016

i want say something

Nb MAGICKA IS CHEAT . he have a very good for survive . very good on dps , very good gameplay , very good on pvp too , very good on tank , very good on heal ( heal ? xD he can do 40 K dps and heal simultaneously )

it's all , bb .

Lava_Croft · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

joshhh_nb wrote: »

The only reason to go for a magic melee NB is to take away enemy movement speed through snares and or one shot large groups with VD,Proxy,Soul tether, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno could we please see a revamp in lotus fan and concealed to make it as competitive as a Stam NB? All the changes to nightblade are orientated for Stam builds, where's the love

Magblade is competitive in PVP and PVE stamblade is no where near competitive in PVE and in PVP we are only good for ganking.So we need the help while magblades are competitive in both aspect you guys do not really need a buff while stamblades does.

If you think Stamina Nightblades in PvP are only good for ganking, you are very wrong. StamBlades in PvE need a buff, they are more than fine in open world PvP and stronger than a MagBlade at 1v1.

Jaronking · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

joshhh_nb wrote: »

The only reason to go for a magic melee NB is to take away enemy movement speed through snares and or one shot large groups with VD,Proxy,Soul tether, @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_GinaBruno could we please see a revamp in lotus fan and concealed to make it as competitive as a Stam NB? All the changes to nightblade are orientated for Stam builds, where's the love

Magblade is competitive in PVP and PVE stamblade is no where near competitive in PVE and in PVP we are only good for ganking.So we need the help while magblades are competitive in both aspect you guys do not really need a buff while stamblades does.

If you think Stamina Nightblades in PvP are only good for ganking, you are very wrong. StamBlades in PvE need a buff, they are more than fine in open world PvP and stronger than a MagBlade at 1v1.

While I agree their fine in open world I should have mentioned that in my OP but stamblades are weak in 1v1 Stam DK and Stamplars are ahead of stam blades in 1v1 by a good margin and I would say magblades are a little bit better.Its close between the two but their not better IMO.

Elevenstorm · May 2016

So, Real question. Who's all rerolling Khajiit StamDKs?

joshhh_nb · May 2016

@Jaronking I'm talking about pvp and I agree mag NB are fine, if you are talking about a destro Resto set up and or a bomb build.

My destro set up is 100% better than my dw set up, they need to revamp concealed weapon, both my mag Templar and sorc hit way harder and perform better solo than my melee mag NB in terms of killing people. Only thing my NB does better is escaping sticky situations.

If you think Stam nbs are weak in 1v1 look who won the NA PC tournament.

Jaronking · May 2016

joshhh_nb wrote: »

@Jaronking I'm talking about pvp and I agree mag NB are fine, if you are talking about a destro Resto set up and or a bomb build.

My destro set up is 100% better than my dw set up, they need to revamp concealed weapon, both my mag Templar and sorc hit way harder and perform better solo than my melee mag NB in terms of killing people. Only thing my NB does better is escaping sticky situations.

If you think Stam nbs are weak in 1v1 look who won the NA PC tournament.

I didn't say they were weal but a equally skilled stamplar and StamDk is going to give that Stamblade a lot of trouble.With their access to major mending and able to out heal most of our damage their better than us in 1v1.
While you might have a point about DW magblades I have buddies who ran it in PVP with no problem its all about setting up your burst.

Again I can agree that Magblade could have conceal weapon changed to be more on par with surprise attack.

Jaronking · May 2016

Elevenstorm wrote: »

So, Real question. Who's all rerolling Khajiit StamDKs?

I don't have to I have a redguard ready to be leveled.

joshhh_nb · May 2016

@Jaronking I totally agree with you though, Stam dk and Stam Templar (if used properly) is much better in duels, Stam NB have the dps but sustain and survivability is their problem since they don't actually have major mending which both Stam Dks and stamplars do. But Stam Dks were always top dog in duels.

DDuke · May 2016

joshhh_nb wrote: »

@Jaronking I totally agree with you though, Stam dk and Stam Templar (if used properly) is much better in duels, Stam NB have the dps but sustain and survivability is their problem since they don't actually have major mending which both Stam Dks and stamplars do. But Stam Dks were always top dog in duels.

Not true.

Back in 1.6 days when cloak worked reliably, Stamina NB could compete even against the best stamplars & stam DKs (back then, sorcs & NBs were considered the top dogs actually). You'd use your cloak for sustain, mitigating/removing the DoTs & for burst combos.

Of course this was changed, but atleast based on my testings they've fixed many of the issues with cloak breaking from enemy/your own DoTs in the DB PTS.

So there is hope... Also, cloak in conjunction with roll dodge is going to be one of the best counters to poisons in PvP.

So atleast from where I stand, it looks like stam NBs are going to be quite fine in PvP - hard to say without really playing it out though.

In PvE, we still have serious issues though - and having to slot 2H for Major Brutality while stealthed is something that will actually prevent me from playing a stamina NB in PvP next patch.

At the moment, using speed/weapon damage potion for the buff is annoying, but bearable - next patch you're giving up +30% healing received if you use those potions instead of the new Major Vitality ones, which is not an option.

Lava_Croft · May 2016

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

joshhh_nb · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

Preach it. Where are the Melee Mag Blades !

The only thing that makes MELEE (non bombing) mag blades just above mag Dks in terms of open world is cloak, fear and shadow image.

Give mag blades empower or a spell resis debuff on concealed !!

SanTii.92 · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

Right, cause our range stamblades are so good.

Lava_Croft · May 2016

sAnn92 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

Right, cause our range stamblades are so good.

Ignoring the very nice abilities related to the Bow line, how is this in any way a valid argument for the weakness of Magicka Melee? Magicka Melee actually got nerfs in the form of Lotus Fan and Soul Harvest...

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

sAnn92 wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Meanwhile, Magicka Melee Nightblades are wondering why bother.

Right, cause our range stamblades are so good.

Ignoring the very nice abilities related to the Bow line, how is this in any way a valid argument for the weakness of Magicka Melee? Magicka Melee actually got nerfs in the form of Lotus Fan and Soul Harvest...

The Bow skill line Is all about Utility, No Stamblade Is going to use it for Dps.

Code2501 · May 2016

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

As for Bow and DW CCs.... the only hard bow cc is Scatter shot(and morphs) and they require you to be in 10m range, good for melee builds that use bow for utility but bad for archers because 10m is less than spamable gap closers, bombard is a soft CC it doesn't stun it roots

DW doesn't have any hard CC skills if I recall correctly. So you're left with SnB and 2H for CC option other than fear (which is expensive).

Bow has an interrupt at 28m (Venom Arrow) and an AOE Root/Snare at 20m (Arrow Spray), in addition to Scatter and DW has a 28/10m snare in Hidden Blade.

If your concern is just "Hard" CC (sounds like your only counting KB/stun/disorient/fear) then excluding ultimate's which are pretty much even now, MagNB vs StamNB options look like:

Mag -
Destro Touch - 28m/17m, KB OR Stun OR neither depending on morph/element
Volcanic Rune - Trap
TP Strike pre morph - 22m (Hard in PVE only)
VS/Concealed Weapon - 5m (from stealth/invis)
Terror morphs - 6m PBAOE or trap fear
Agony morphs - 28m
Cloak, maybe, though its an odd sort of "hard" CC if you want ot count it as such - infinite range

Stam -
Scatter Shot - 10m
Defensive Stance - on spell reflect, range as far as reflected spell
Shield Charge morphs - 22m
Power Bash Morphs - 7m
Uppercut Morphs - 7m
Trap Beast Morphs - Trap
Ambush - 22m (Hard in PVE only)
Surp Att - 5m

So about even, slightly more reliable on the Stam side with less 'trick-shots' , but also a little more of it being strictly melee range.
Yes, some Stam weapons have less "hard" CC , though three is also no Hard CC in Resto and MagikaNB "hard" CC is mostly from the class skills.
you could include vamp/WW hard CC, Vamp has 1, WW has 2 though requires ultimate to use so doesn't really change the stamNB v magNB CC comparison.

If you include Snare, Immobilize and interrupt then all stam weapons have some CC, the weakest being DW with only snare on Hidden Blade, but yeah, weapon swap.
Mag NB also has snares available in both class and weapon (ice only) and one immobilize.

Back to agony though, Personally, I don't use agony at all, I view it (and its morphs) as a garbage skill, so I'm not adverse to it being made useful for all NB (stam or mag).
But, As I've expressed elsewhere, whilst there are not equal Mag/Stam weapon options, and spell crafting is "Not in the pipeline in the foreseeable future." I have concerns with going overboard and 'Staminizing' too many class skills.
And this opinion is coming from someone with both Mag and Stam NB's.

Anti_Virus · May 2016

Code2501 wrote: »

ShadowStarKing wrote: »

As for Bow and DW CCs.... the only hard bow cc is Scatter shot(and morphs) and they require you to be in 10m range, good for melee builds that use bow for utility but bad for archers because 10m is less than spamable gap closers, bombard is a soft CC it doesn't stun it roots

DW doesn't have any hard CC skills if I recall correctly. So you're left with SnB and 2H for CC option other than fear (which is expensive).

Bow has an interrupt at 28m (Venom Arrow) and an AOE Root/Snare at 20m (Arrow Spray), in addition to Scatter and DW has a 28/10m snare in Hidden Blade.

If your concern is just "Hard" CC (sounds like your only counting KB/stun/disorient/fear) then excluding ultimate's which are pretty much even now, MagNB vs StamNB options look like:

Mag -
Destro Touch - 28m/17m, KB OR Stun OR neither depending on morph/element
Volcanic Rune - Trap
TP Strike pre morph - 22m (Hard in PVE only)
VS/Concealed Weapon - 5m (from stealth/invis)
Terror morphs - 6m PBAOE or trap fear
Agony morphs - 28m
Cloak, maybe, though its an odd sort of "hard" CC if you want ot count it as such - infinite range

Stam -
Scatter Shot - 10m
Defensive Stance - on spell reflect, range as far as reflected spell
Shield Charge morphs - 22m
Power Bash Morphs - 7m
Uppercut Morphs - 7m
Trap Beast Morphs - Trap
Ambush - 22m (Hard in PVE only)
Surp Att - 5m

So about even, slightly more reliable on the Stam side with less 'trick-shots' , but also a little more of it being strictly melee range.
Yes, some Stam weapons have less "hard" CC , though three is also no Hard CC in Resto and MagikaNB "hard" CC is mostly from the class skills.
you could include vamp/WW hard CC, Vamp has 1, WW has 2 though requires ultimate to use so doesn't really change the stamNB v magNB CC comparison.

If you include Snare, Immobilize and interrupt then all stam weapons have some CC, the weakest being DW with only snare on Hidden Blade, but yeah, weapon swap.
Mag NB also has snares available in both class and weapon (ice only) and one immobilize.

Back to agony though, Personally, I don't use agony at all, I view it (and its morphs) as a garbage skill, so I'm not adverse to it being made useful for all NB (stam or mag).
But, As I've expressed elsewhere, whilst there are not equal Mag/Stam weapon options, and spell crafting is "Not in the pipeline in the foreseeable future." I have concerns with going overboard and 'Staminizing' too many class skills.
And this opinion is coming from someone with both Mag and Stam NB's.

I completely overlooked Venom arrow and you're right but it's not as reliable to use as 'hard' CCs (what you mentioned earlier) hard CCs are better to use especially in pvp because your opponent cannot attack for a short time and spend a good amount of stamina to break a stun.

I understand your post the problem is bow skill line is not fully optimized to be a viable dps weapon yet and most class skills (except sorcs because they use magic ) are melee oriented whether it magic or stam which is not good for archers.

I don't want to take away from magic builds. I just want archery to be viable. The only reason ppl even use the bow is for utility back bar weapon(hasty retreat passive) or dots(poison injection, volley) and it sucks.

Elevenstorm · May 2016

So @ZOS_GinaBruno Can we get some of the stuff mentioned in this thread before DB goes live?

Jaronking · May 2016

Can we have access to minor mending or would people have problem with that.Would help with NB healers and allow stamblades to have decent healing compared to Stamplars and DK who can out heal a good amount of damage.

Lava_Croft · May 2016

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Elevenstorm · May 2016

Stamblades aren't made to heal "well". We're designed to completely and utterly destroy in a short amount of time.

Jaronking · May 2016

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Not compared to Stamplar and StamDK their healing craps on ours.Major mending boost the heals from those abilities by 40% I believe. So let's say a DK who vigor tooltip is 10k for the heal his will be boost to 14k which 7k in PVP without any other buffs.I will admit my math could be wrong if so completely IGNORE me.

Elevenstorm · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Not compared to Stamplar and StamDK their healing craps on ours.Major mending boost the heals from those abilities by 40% I believe. So let's say a DK who vigor tooltip is 10k for the heal his will be boost to 14k which 7k in PVP without any other buffs.I will admit my math could be wrong if so completely IGNORE me.

I believe it is 25%

Erondil · May 2016

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Not compared to Stamplar and StamDK their healing craps on ours.Major mending boost the heals from those abilities by 40% I believe. So let's say a DK who vigor tooltip is 10k for the heal his will be boost to 14k which 7k in PVP without any other buffs.I will admit my math could be wrong if so completely IGNORE me.

Its not 40% its "only" 25%, yes they heal better but they have weaker burst (or harder to pull off), no instant cast spammable dps ability and harder time to escape so its only fair. What you're asking for here is class standardization which is simply bad in a MMO. And the fact that stam temp/dk got better heals doesnt change that stamina NB selfhealing is fine with only vigor and rally.

Elevenstorm · May 2016

Try this combo next time you need heals cast rally, vigor, roll dodge, cloak and then hit rally again. Cloak guarantees it will crit.

Jaronking · May 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Not compared to Stamplar and StamDK their healing craps on ours.Major mending boost the heals from those abilities by 40% I believe. So let's say a DK who vigor tooltip is 10k for the heal his will be boost to 14k which 7k in PVP without any other buffs.I will admit my math could be wrong if so completely IGNORE me.

Its not 40% its "only" 25%, yes they heal better but they have weaker burst (or harder to pull off), no instant cast spammable dps ability and harder time to escape so its only fair. What you're asking for here is class standardization which is simply bad in a MMO. And the fact that stam temp/dk got better heals doesnt change that stamina NB selfhealing is fine with only vigor and rally.

Well my apologies I know it was either 40 or 20% went with 40.Again that's why I am asking for minor mending it doesn't take anything away from DK or Temp they still have the stronger better version.Minor Mending is weaker and not that good of a boost.So its not making all the classes the same.They still keep their class identity while NB get a minor buff.Also stamplar do have a Spamable DPS ability in Jabs that's a AOe while will knock us out of cloak.Also I can't say they have a better chance to escape with all the counter to cloak and stealth I would say their pretty even.I don't see the problem with giving NB minor mending.

@Elevenstorm I do that now on live while the burst heal from rally will crit the cloak will break and I will still take damage from the dot will will at times out damage my heals.

SanTii.92 · May 2016

Erondil wrote: »

Jaronking wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Stamina Nightblades heal themselves just fine with Vigor and Rally.

Not compared to Stamplar and StamDK their healing craps on ours.Major mending boost the heals from those abilities by 40% I believe. So let's say a DK who vigor tooltip is 10k for the heal his will be boost to 14k which 7k in PVP without any other buffs.I will admit my math could be wrong if so completely IGNORE me.

Its not 40% its "only" 25%, yes they heal better but they have weaker burst (or harder to pull off), no instant cast spammable dps ability and harder time to escape so its only fair. What you're asking for here is class standardization which is simply bad in a MMO. And the fact that stam temp/dk got better heals doesnt change that stamina NB selfhealing is fine with only vigor and rally.

The problem is more so with nightblade healers, with the second nerf in a row of swallow soul we are in a pretty bad state for competitive purposes, might be the worst ones. maybe @omfgitsbatman can reiterate his concerns for visibility.