Official Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

NTclaymore · May 2016

I came here to say thanks to ZOS for listening to us (atleast on one point)
My Stam DK no longer pukes on enemies but have some sweet green fire

Love the claw animation aswell!

Ishammael · May 2016

The LORD ISHAMMAEL demands that the DK thread remain higher!

MaxwellC · May 2016

Great changes with breath/claw but corrosive armor... we need to get rid of that completely, sorry it's atrocious.

BlackMadara · May 2016

ZoM_Head wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

A couple of things that I have thought about and researched about mag DK:
I used an online tooltip calculator to compare each classes "spammable" skill's damage. This is based 3000 spell damage and 35000 max magicka. Granted, not everyone is going to have the same stats, some builds can afford more offensive stats and some more defensive.

DK flame lash has a 6348 tooltip and power lash a 7942 tooltip.
NB concealed weapon has a 6851 tooltip and swallow soul a 6348 tooltip.
Sorc crystal frag has a 10225 tooltip.
Templar puncturing sweep has a 994 tooltip for 4 hits and dark flare a 12167 tooltip.

Now I believe that ZOS balances the spammable skills based on certain combinations and passives.

For DK, engulfing flames increases flame damage by 10% increasing flame lash tooltip to 6983 and power lash to 8736.
For NB, they have a large tooltip for concealed weapon and smaller one for swallow soul due to range. They also get bonuses for attacking from stealth and cc'd enemies.
For Sorc, crystal frags has a very large tooltip due to its cast time and empowerment instacast proc.
For Temp, sweeps does 140% more damage to the first enemy hit for a 5566 tooltip with a 25% chance to proc burning light each hit for 3647 damage, so with 4 hits and one proc would be 9213 damage (rng math for more accurate number). Dark flare is large to due to cast time.

Flame lash and concealed weapon are the most easily comparable due to being both single target, instant cast, spammable skills. Flame lash is weaker unless power lash procs or engulfing flames is on the enemy. The time to apply the dot increases time to kill for a DK compared to a NB but would mean more dps past a certain point. PvP is more focused on lower time to kill however. Also, most DKs build tankier due to not having means to escape,control fights, or reliably reset fights like cloak, shields, streak, and a strong heal.

This is just so people can see side by side damage possibilities for magicka classes. I don't think that whip hits "like a noodle" its just other areas that DK lacks in that's the problem. Its not much, just some things that we need to better stand our ground and control fights the way that I think ZOS wants the class to specialize in (like the templar house).

Now for my suggestions (or dreams) for DK skill and passive changes.

I think that dragonblood should give a flat heal that increases by a percentage based on your missing health. Give it the same scaling a executes. This way, battle spirit doesn't hurt as much. I'd also like the heal to scale off magicka. Have it relatively weak at max health but stronger than breath of life at low due to it only healing yourself. Dragonblood will keep its niche as an anti-execute skill and still be equally affected by battle spirit like other skills.

Increase the radius of ash cloud and its morphs by 1-2 meters. Also, give cinder storm major evasion with a cast at feet (as others have said).

Major expedition on wings, for 4 seconds, instead of chains. It makes more sense to me, flapping wings to move faster, and is more versatile than having it on a gap closer.

Perhaps adding physical resistance with scaled armor, sense we are seen as the tankier class (I don't think we are).

There may be other things that could help DKs and some of my suggestions may not be the best but lets discuss.

Then please explain a Dunmer DK with 42K max magicka is dealing 3.2K flash Lash crits in pvp?

You need to take into consideration that one needs to stun/root/off balance and enemy and do two attacks of lash to get get it to proc (hello cc immunity), you also added engulfing flames in the mix. So you see how many skills are required to be used in order to get the max potential? not including traits and CP that make all those numbers much much lower.

Other classes use one or two skills and would still deal more than 3.2K crits, when the DK is rooting, applying engulfing, and two attacks of lash to get a proc, add to that the lack (or non exsistent) mobility, gap closer (please do not say chains), execute or effective heal when NOT using burning embers/lash/deep breath (basically a heal that does NOT require an enemy to be hit).

Alright I am going to do some really rough calculations based of 42000 magicka and 3300 spell damage.
Flame lash base tooltip is 7316. So with dunmer fire passive and 100 in elemental expert you get 7316*.1.07*1.25=9785/2=4892 for battle spirit. About 650 armor gives 1% mitigation, so with 20000 spell resistance, you get about 30.8% mitigation. 4892*(1-.308)=3385, a crit would do 5077 damage. obviously this is more than what you have stated and not calculating penetration. If someone was at armor cap a crit would do 3669 crit with no penetration. So I assume said DK has little penetration and/or the oppponent has a lot of armor and crit resistance.

A magicka nightblade with similar stats has a 7897 tooltip for concealed weapon. With 100 into elemental expert that would raise to 9871/2 4935. Damage against opponent with 20000 spell resistance would be 3415 non crit. NB have 10% more damage from stealth and invis and have a free 10% increase to their crit modifier. I am not sure if that means their crit modifier is 160% or 155% though. A crit with 155% would do 5293 and 160% would be 5464. Against an armor cap opponent with no penetration would give a 3824 crit with 155% modifier and a 3948 crit with 160% modifier. Don't feel like doing the damage to off balanced targets.

So, it is apparant NBs do more damage more easily than DKs, but that isn't the DKs problem. IMO it is surving long enough to set up dots to bring their dps up to and beyond the other classes levels. A fix to the class defining dragon blood, by giving it a flat value that increased by a percentage the lower hp you are, and giving cinder storm major evasion would help a lot. DKs in the past seemed to be able to survive long enough due to lack of battle spirit and being able to permablock. I didn't play back then so I am not completely sure.

Bottom Line: Help DK survivability, a damage buff isn't needed.

Edit: here is the calculator I'm using http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

GRYM.LOCKE · May 2016

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

since your doing a few Skils Updates on DK can you change one of Deep Breaths other Morphs to Poison ?

DUTCH_REAPER · May 2016

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

since your doing a few Skils Updates on DK can you change one of Deep Breaths other Morphs to Poison ?

Sorry but I don't agree. Not every single skill needs to be a Stam morph for classes. Especially one that is healing and doing damage. Good pvp DK healing abilities are slim for mDK not Stam DK. Please Wrobel do not do this. Having an interrupt on one and a resource return on the other is great for game content.

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

Dragonknight damage is in need of a buff

you have no chance in open world pvp with a magic Dk without Sword and Board...its simply not viable....trust me i have tried every possible combination. I had a Fire Destro Build that could 1 or 2 shot people, but it was very situational and not viable open world.

the DK has no burst, even if you let those DOTS run their course, they are easily outhealed by Major Mending and HOT stacking, or even just standard magic heals...Magic DK has no burst. You have to rely on ultimates to kill people most of the time, and you have to rely on ultimates and Battle Roar for sustain.

the Magic DK needs more then a boost to surviviability, they need a boost to damage as well in PVP, one that can't be used by Stamina DK who are already top of the food chain in PVP right now as it is. Stma DK is leaps and bounds more powerful in PVP then their magic peasants

GRYM.LOCKE · May 2016

DUTCH_REAPER wrote: »

GRYM.LOCKE wrote: »

@Wrobel @ZOS_GinaBruno

since your doing a few Skils Updates on DK can you change one of Deep Breaths other Morphs to Poison ?

Sorry but I don't agree. Not every single skill needs to be a Stam morph for classes. Especially one that is healing and doing damage. Good pvp DK healing abilities are slim for mDK not Stam DK. Please Wrobel do not do this. Having an interrupt on one and a resource return on the other is great for game content.

Each to there own ...

Seems to make Sence Each skill should have 1 Magicka Morph 1 Stamina Morph but since I dont PVP And NEVER will i cannot see your side but its ok

BlackMadara · May 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknight damage is in need of a buff

you have no chance in open world pvp with a magic Dk without Sword and Board...its simply not viable....trust me i have tried every possible combination. I had a Fire Destro Build that could 1 or 2 shot people, but it was very situational and not viable open world.

the DK has no burst, even if you let those DOTS run their course, they are easily outhealed by Major Mending and HOT stacking, or even just standard magic heals...Magic DK has no burst. You have to rely on ultimates to kill people most of the time, and you have to rely on ultimates and Battle Roar for sustain.

the Magic DK needs more then a boost to surviviability, they need a boost to damage as well in PVP, one that can't be used by Stamina DK who are already top of the food chain in PVP right now as it is. Stma DK is leaps and bounds more powerful in PVP then their magic peasants

I main magicka DK, I may not be the best and its not the easiest class, but I do ok. My question is how do you compare dk damage and burst to other classes and how would you buff dk burst without it being too much compared to these other classes. I have given some very rough numbers, trying to see how each class differs in an admittedly narrow way. So again, what changes would you suggest specifically instead of just calling for buffs.

RinaldoGandolphi · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknight damage is in need of a buff

you have no chance in open world pvp with a magic Dk without Sword and Board...its simply not viable....trust me i have tried every possible combination. I had a Fire Destro Build that could 1 or 2 shot people, but it was very situational and not viable open world.

the DK has no burst, even if you let those DOTS run their course, they are easily outhealed by Major Mending and HOT stacking, or even just standard magic heals...Magic DK has no burst. You have to rely on ultimates to kill people most of the time, and you have to rely on ultimates and Battle Roar for sustain.

the Magic DK needs more then a boost to surviviability, they need a boost to damage as well in PVP, one that can't be used by Stamina DK who are already top of the food chain in PVP right now as it is. Stma DK is leaps and bounds more powerful in PVP then their magic peasants

I main magicka DK, I may not be the best and its not the easiest class, but I do ok. My question is how do you compare dk damage and burst to other classes and how would you buff dk burst without it being too much compared to these other classes. I have given some very rough numbers, trying to see how each class differs in an admittedly narrow way. So again, what changes would you suggest specifically instead of just calling for buffs.

Well the class itself is too reliant on DOTS and in PVP being as fast paced as it is, DOTS simply aren;t that good.

the first buff I would make is:

1. increasing the base damage of Lava Whip and its morphs by 10% (No stam morph of whip Stam DK are too powerful now)
2. removing the Battle Spirit penalty from Dragon Blood.
3. Making Minor Maim the base effect of Dark Talons, Burning Talons adds fire, Choking Talons Adds Minor Fracture and Minor Breech
4. Ferocious Leap Made a Magic Morph dealing magic damage and Scaling from Magic CP, spell damage, and max magicka
5. Shifting Standard made a stam morph doing poison damage(for not getting a stam whip)
6. Molten Weapons and its morphs causing all your attacks with class skills to deal 40% more damage to targets below 35% health (Key word is class skills, not weapon skills, not two handed, bow or anything else..just class skills)
7. Iron Skin passive gives physical resistance and reduces the cost of blocking by 5% with a Draconic Power ability slotted.

Its a start anyways, right now...Magic DK is at a disadvantage in PVP and you have to play out of your mind to win compared to other specs in the game.

ZoM_Head · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

BlackMadara wrote: »

A couple of things that I have thought about and researched about mag DK:
I used an online tooltip calculator to compare each classes "spammable" skill's damage. This is based 3000 spell damage and 35000 max magicka. Granted, not everyone is going to have the same stats, some builds can afford more offensive stats and some more defensive.

DK flame lash has a 6348 tooltip and power lash a 7942 tooltip.
NB concealed weapon has a 6851 tooltip and swallow soul a 6348 tooltip.
Sorc crystal frag has a 10225 tooltip.
Templar puncturing sweep has a 994 tooltip for 4 hits and dark flare a 12167 tooltip.

Now I believe that ZOS balances the spammable skills based on certain combinations and passives.

For DK, engulfing flames increases flame damage by 10% increasing flame lash tooltip to 6983 and power lash to 8736.
For NB, they have a large tooltip for concealed weapon and smaller one for swallow soul due to range. They also get bonuses for attacking from stealth and cc'd enemies.
For Sorc, crystal frags has a very large tooltip due to its cast time and empowerment instacast proc.
For Temp, sweeps does 140% more damage to the first enemy hit for a 5566 tooltip with a 25% chance to proc burning light each hit for 3647 damage, so with 4 hits and one proc would be 9213 damage (rng math for more accurate number). Dark flare is large to due to cast time.

Flame lash and concealed weapon are the most easily comparable due to being both single target, instant cast, spammable skills. Flame lash is weaker unless power lash procs or engulfing flames is on the enemy. The time to apply the dot increases time to kill for a DK compared to a NB but would mean more dps past a certain point. PvP is more focused on lower time to kill however. Also, most DKs build tankier due to not having means to escape,control fights, or reliably reset fights like cloak, shields, streak, and a strong heal.

This is just so people can see side by side damage possibilities for magicka classes. I don't think that whip hits "like a noodle" its just other areas that DK lacks in that's the problem. Its not much, just some things that we need to better stand our ground and control fights the way that I think ZOS wants the class to specialize in (like the templar house).

Now for my suggestions (or dreams) for DK skill and passive changes.

I think that dragonblood should give a flat heal that increases by a percentage based on your missing health. Give it the same scaling a executes. This way, battle spirit doesn't hurt as much. I'd also like the heal to scale off magicka. Have it relatively weak at max health but stronger than breath of life at low due to it only healing yourself. Dragonblood will keep its niche as an anti-execute skill and still be equally affected by battle spirit like other skills.

Increase the radius of ash cloud and its morphs by 1-2 meters. Also, give cinder storm major evasion with a cast at feet (as others have said).

Major expedition on wings, for 4 seconds, instead of chains. It makes more sense to me, flapping wings to move faster, and is more versatile than having it on a gap closer.

Perhaps adding physical resistance with scaled armor, sense we are seen as the tankier class (I don't think we are).

There may be other things that could help DKs and some of my suggestions may not be the best but lets discuss.

Then please explain a Dunmer DK with 42K max magicka is dealing 3.2K flash Lash crits in pvp?

You need to take into consideration that one needs to stun/root/off balance and enemy and do two attacks of lash to get get it to proc (hello cc immunity), you also added engulfing flames in the mix. So you see how many skills are required to be used in order to get the max potential? not including traits and CP that make all those numbers much much lower.

Other classes use one or two skills and would still deal more than 3.2K crits, when the DK is rooting, applying engulfing, and two attacks of lash to get a proc, add to that the lack (or non exsistent) mobility, gap closer (please do not say chains), execute or effective heal when NOT using burning embers/lash/deep breath (basically a heal that does NOT require an enemy to be hit).

Alright I am going to do some really rough calculations based of 42000 magicka and 3300 spell damage.
Flame lash base tooltip is 7316. So with dunmer fire passive and 100 in elemental expert you get 7316*.1.07*1.25=9785/2=4892 for battle spirit. About 650 armor gives 1% mitigation, so with 20000 spell resistance, you get about 30.8% mitigation. 4892*(1-.308)=3385, a crit would do 5077 damage. obviously this is more than what you have stated and not calculating penetration. If someone was at armor cap a crit would do 3669 crit with no penetration. So I assume said DK has little penetration and/or the oppponent has a lot of armor and crit resistance.

A magicka nightblade with similar stats has a 7897 tooltip for concealed weapon. With 100 into elemental expert that would raise to 9871/2 4935. Damage against opponent with 20000 spell resistance would be 3415 non crit. NB have 10% more damage from stealth and invis and have a free 10% increase to their crit modifier. I am not sure if that means their crit modifier is 160% or 155% though. A crit with 155% would do 5293 and 160% would be 5464. Against an armor cap opponent with no penetration would give a 3824 crit with 155% modifier and a 3948 crit with 160% modifier. Don't feel like doing the damage to off balanced targets.

So, it is apparant NBs do more damage more easily than DKs, but that isn't the DKs problem. IMO it is surving long enough to set up dots to bring their dps up to and beyond the other classes levels. A fix to the class defining dragon blood, by giving it a flat value that increased by a percentage the lower hp you are, and giving cinder storm major evasion would help a lot. DKs in the past seemed to be able to survive long enough due to lack of battle spirit and being able to permablock. I didn't play back then so I am not completely sure.

Bottom Line: Help DK survivability, a damage buff isn't needed.

Edit: here is the calculator I'm using http://esoitem.uesp.net/viewSkills.php

Did you take everything i said into consideration? Because you did not calculate the root/stun/off balance skill required for flame lash to actually proc verses the instant damage other classes achieve? Have you considered the cost of talons/petrify compared to other classes?

Numbers are one thing, but in reality things are different, we dont need a buff in damage, we need a few tweaks, actually a lot fo tweaks.

Zenimax can not really fix us, because we are a dot and aoe focused class. There is no way we will get a burst damage buff, because mDks already reach 40K+ in pve in a full rotation.

Other classes lack the dots of mDks, but they have such high burst and better passives than DKs in general.

The only way i believe this will be fixed, if other classes get nerfed (burst wise), which i really doubt we shall see, since most classes keep getting buffed (especially nightblades) in every major update.

I agree with you, that probably the best solution is to give DKs more survivability, since it was taken away from us in IC update anyways.

flguy147ub17_ESO · May 2016

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknight damage is in need of a buff

you have no chance in open world pvp with a magic Dk without Sword and Board...its simply not viable....trust me i have tried every possible combination. I had a Fire Destro Build that could 1 or 2 shot people, but it was very situational and not viable open world.

the DK has no burst, even if you let those DOTS run their course, they are easily outhealed by Major Mending and HOT stacking, or even just standard magic heals...Magic DK has no burst. You have to rely on ultimates to kill people most of the time, and you have to rely on ultimates and Battle Roar for sustain.

the Magic DK needs more then a boost to surviviability, they need a boost to damage as well in PVP, one that can't be used by Stamina DK who are already top of the food chain in PVP right now as it is. Stma DK is leaps and bounds more powerful in PVP then their magic peasants

This exactly, oh yeah they just took away our burst ultimate with DB and gave it to stamina builds.

Armitas · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Dragonknight damage is in need of a buff

you have no chance in open world pvp with a magic Dk without Sword and Board...its simply not viable....trust me i have tried every possible combination. I had a Fire Destro Build that could 1 or 2 shot people, but it was very situational and not viable open world.

the DK has no burst, even if you let those DOTS run their course, they are easily outhealed by Major Mending and HOT stacking, or even just standard magic heals...Magic DK has no burst. You have to rely on ultimates to kill people most of the time, and you have to rely on ultimates and Battle Roar for sustain.

the Magic DK needs more then a boost to surviviability, they need a boost to damage as well in PVP, one that can't be used by Stamina DK who are already top of the food chain in PVP right now as it is. Stma DK is leaps and bounds more powerful in PVP then their magic peasants

I main magicka DK, I may not be the best and its not the easiest class, but I do ok. My question is how do you compare dk damage and burst to other classes and how would you buff dk burst without it being too much compared to these other classes. I have given some very rough numbers, trying to see how each class differs in an admittedly narrow way. So again, what changes would you suggest specifically instead of just calling for buffs.

I tried to come up with a way to fix our damage problem without buffing our dps in PvE or buffing Stamina Dk's. The best I could come up with is a physical reflect through volatile armor that is fleshed out in detail here. It operates much the same way as reflect in that it lets us use our enemies own dps as our own. I'd rather just have whip do more but if ZOS is concerned over PvE dps scores then this might might help get around that.

flguy147ub17_ESO · May 2016

If Magicka DKs arent buffed in PVP by PS4 DB release then i am just not sure i will play anymore. I tried a stam DK and its just not as fun but its laughable how much more powerful they are. I dont care to be the strongest class in the game but it frustrates me when the magicka DK community has been saying the same thing for months and months and ZOS even starts threads asking for feedback but they refust to listen. I honestly believe 2 things would make a world of difference, Fix Dragonblood and buff the whip damage. Those 2 things still wont put us where stam DK or NBs are but it will help us a ton. ZOS please listen to us on these changes that badly need. You took away the only 2 ways we go burst damage in Proxy with a neff and DB because it was very cheap so we could use it more often for some burst damage. Those are now taken away from us which has a huge impact on magicka DKs.

Wollust · May 2016

FIX DRAGONBLOOD

RoamingRiverElk · May 2016

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

Great summary.

Also, the HP modifier was nerfed at one point so our Igneous Shield / Dragon Blood suffered from that as well. Less HP also makes the magicka dk more vulnerable to being burst. That should become a little easier with the harness magicka change, but in the end, what magicka dk needs more is blocking, since we cannot kite properly like a magicka sorc and stamina classes can.

Also, didn't the Battle Roar resource return used to be based on max magicka somehow?

And the official magicka DK class ultimate, invisibats, still hasn't been fixed.

But hey, an outnumbered magicka dk will be dying fast anyway next patch with the resource drain and healing debuffs on it anyway.

shugg · May 2016

Just a question, i play a stam dk and love the new poison damage and have always used the stam flame morphs in both pvp and pve, so with the change to wrecking blow will it be better to run rally , molten weapons with the 40% heavy attack damage and just HA instead of using Wb. Would go nice with the sergents mail set and maybe waighted. Any thoughts?

Armitas · May 2016

I had an epiphany this morning and I think I figured out how to buff our whip in a simple manner without buffing Stamina DK's or PvE magicka DPS.

We have two whips. Molten whip and Flame Lash.

Molten whip This increases the spell damage of itself as well as our other ardent flame abilities. This is what we use in PvE to reach our dps benchmarks because in PvE we are using our entire package of ardent flame abilities which includes Searing Strike, Engulfing Flames, Banner, and Flames of Oblivion.

Flame Lash - This is what we use in PvP because it has a heal and it has a conditional burst. Its base value is less than Molten whip because it does not have that spell damage increase.

Here is how we fix it.

Make the base damage of Flame lash equal to the base damage of Molten Whip (which is currently being derived by the added spell damage)
Calculate the dps that is being added when you simultaneously increase the spell damage of all our ardent flame damagers through Molten Whip.
Take 80% (at most) from that calculation and add it into the base value of Flame Lash.

So to recap, we made the base damage of Flame lash equal to Molten Whip. Then we added 80% of the resulting dps of Molten Whips spell damage to the the base damage of Flame lash.

Here is why this works.

Molten whip will still be more damage in PvE because while Flame lash may have a higher base damage, the complete damage package derived from Molten Whips added spell damage is still more total dps. In fact 20% more total dps.
Since you cannot immobilize, set off balance, or stun a boss Flame Lash will never proc Power Lash which will further maintain Molten Whip as the standard for PvE.
Since Molten Whip is prefered for PvE and untouched by this change the PvE DPS Benchmarks will remain the same.
Flame lash gets a large base increase fixing our noodle damage problem, and this consequently makes power lash stronger givings us more burst.
Stamina DKs won't be able to take advantage of the change because it is a magicka based skill
The best part is that we can now do competitive PvP damage without having to carry around our full damage package. This is important because carrying around such a huge damage package takes up a lot of skill slots that should be used for a balanced tool kit.

What do you think @Wrobel ?

RoamingRiverElk · May 2016

They also have sets which only affect player characters. Even an ultimate that silences players but stuns npcs. Couldn't the lash morph just do x percent more damage to players?

I don't think that the extra damage should be conditional on anything though, like whether the enemy is CCd.

BlackMadara · May 2016

@Armitas That is an interesting idea, buffing what volatile armor does. In that thread, i saw something else that i like. Purging dots causes a percentage of the damage they'd inflict on the target instantly. Would that not fix problems with have dots for damage for the DK class?

@ZoM_Head With the buff to flame talons last patch, our easiest way to proc power lash got stronger. In that post, however, i was just comparing the base tooltips of magic abilities. Flame lash, not power lash, does more damage, with the same stats, as concealed weapon if enfulfing flames is on the target. I was in a hurry so i didn't add that. Thats why I think we just need buffs to survive open world. Glad that you agree on that front. Also, I don't want other classes nerfed, just want the way the DK class is set up to be played (setting up dots, controlling their immediate area with roots and slows) to be effective. Of course that isn't the only way they should play, but looking at how our abilities and passives synergize with each other, it is apparent that is how we are designed.

@RinaldoGandolphi I'd like to give some feedback on your points.
1. Increasing the damage of Lava whip and its morphs would unbalance DK damage. With engulfing flames on the target, Lava whip and morphs already does slightly more damage than other instant cast spammable melee abilities (concealed weapon, surprise attack, pierce armor, low slash, ect.). If you buffed the base damage of the abillity, it would set it way over the top if people ran enfulfing flames. This is only considering the damage and no other effects of course. The only buff I'd lilke to see for power lash in particular is being able to knock down played in pvp.
2. Removing battle spirit from a single ability can be touchy. It would seem unfair. I have proposed other ways that Dragon Blood could work effectively with battle spirit though. Give a flat value based on max hp (10%-20% for example) and have its heal increase by up to 300% ( adjusted for balance) with missing missing hp. Keeps its niche, works with battle spirit, strong heal while lower, weak while healthier.
3. Minor Main for all would be cool but I think that might be a little too strong. Then again, Fear is an aoe unblockable stun that slows and applies minor maim, so it isn't completely uncalled for. Maybe lower the damage a little. Not too sure how this could be balanced.
4. I like it. I love leap. I still use it, even though I am magicka, as my "oh ***" ultimate.
5. I like shifting standard on my magicka DK, but if we got a magicka leap, I'd suck it up on the loss.
6. So a weak execute like passive. It'd still be weaker than other executes, but it'd help use kill things without ults. Cool, but I don't think ZOS would go for it. I like it though.
7. Yes. That is all
I'd like to add
8. Cinder storm gives major evasion while inside of it. Cast at feet. Used to be like that, why take it away?

I like actual ideas being put in place. Lets keep the discussion going and maybe we can get some attention from @ZOS_GinaBruno @Wrobel I know not all these ideas can be put in place, but maybe it can give the devs some ideas. More productive minds are better.

Armitas · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Armitas That is an interesting idea, buffing what volatile armor does. In that thread, i saw something else that i like. Purging dots causes a percentage of the damage they'd inflict on the target instantly. Would that not fix problems with have dots for damage for the DK class?

I think it would. We would still have the problem of having to have such a large damage set in our tool box, but at least it would allow what we have slotted to work. Having to slot so much just to reach our designers damage expectations keeps us from forming a well rounded action bar. It's easier for Sorcs and NB's to have a focused ability bar because they have the mobility to pick their fights. Us DKs can't pick our fights so it's especially important that we are prepared for what ever we run into.

For those who haven't read the thread what is referred to here is a change to the way purge works. If I have a dot on someone and they purged it the dot would blow up and apply the reminder of the dots damage but at a reduced amount. Lets say 50% so If I had 5k worth of damage over time left to be done, and they purged it, it would blow up for 2.5k. This makes purge and dots both useful, as well as making purge a thought process rather than a spam or a rotation. It was more in view of NB cloaking which has changed rather than Templar purges but I think there may be some value to it. In our current PvP era of Purge demand it will likely be too strong and might get your group wipped just from trying to purge meat bags. So Templar purges would have to be immune to the change for it to work. However with efficient purge you have the choice to take the synergy so it's not forced on you.

RoamingRiverElk · May 2016

Would magicka dk be too OP if we could activate dragon leap while rooted?

BlackMadara · May 2016

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Ishammael wrote: »

susmitds wrote: »

Magicka DK used to be the most OP class, till block nerf.

During the 1.5 --> 1.6 transition, the mDK lost the following:
1. Miss chance on cinder storm
2. Unlimited reflect
3. Dynamic ultimate

I'd say those have much more to do w/ DK fall from grace than the "block nerf" -- which has actually been a succession of nerfs (increased cost --> loss of stam regen --> loss of bracing passive). But there are other, less quantifiable changes to the DK class:

1. No gap closer. When block cost was increased it became (mostly) non-viable to run invasion on a mDK. mDK got a semi-working gap closer only with the TG patch.
2. No soft caps. This game mechanic change affected mDK more than any other class. mDK relies on a group of skills to get high damage, utilizing many spaces on their skill bars. It is much more easier to stack one stat and spam one skill will devoting the rest of your ability choices to defense and utility. The earlier days of 1.6 / Dawnbreaker meta were just absurd.
3. Shields. This is essentially a no soft caps issue. Un-capped regen means shields are spammable. Un-capped mana means shields become huge. QED.
4. Battle Spirit Debuff (IC Patch). No stam regen while blocking, Half healing. Half shields. GET REKT mDK.

The point is that mDK, more than any other class, has been affected by core gameplay mechanic changes. There are a huge range of reasons for this. At launch, mDK was the most "complete" class. Its skills and passives made the most sense as a whole. They also fit well within the context of the game and how the game was played. With the exception of some stupid Sorc/Vamp builds in 1.0, this was true well into 1.3 and 1.4. Because mDK made the most sense, it was the easiest to play. Its feature skills -- reflect, Battle Roar, Banner -- became the "noob stomping" abilities b/c players simply hadn't learn how to avoid and counter them. Was the Battle Roar / Dynamic Ultimate mechanic overtuned? Yes -- but it only needed a few adjustments.

Fast forward to today -- mDK has been left in the dust via gameplay mechanic changes and lack of its original class vision. This is why I vehemently disagree with the notion that mDK should get an execute or movement skill. DK has always been about standing your ground in PvP. Damage has always been lackluster. Give me back Dragon Blood, Reflect, Cinder Storm, and some method to generate a little bit of extra ultimate.

Great summary.

Also, the HP modifier was nerfed at one point so our Igneous Shield / Dragon Blood suffered from that as well. Less HP also makes the magicka dk more vulnerable to being burst. That should become a little easier with the harness magicka change, but in the end, what magicka dk needs more is blocking, since we cannot kite properly like a magicka sorc and stamina classes can.

Also, didn't the Battle Roar resource return used to be based on max magicka somehow?

And the official magicka DK class ultimate, invisibats, still hasn't been fixed.

But hey, an outnumbered magicka dk will be dying fast anyway next patch with the resource drain and healing debuffs on it anyway.

I think battle roar still scales the amount of resources you recieve with your max resources. modified by ult cost.

@Ishammael At its core, I do agree that dragon blood, cinder storm, and ult gen for the DK should be looked into. What do you think should be done about reflect and ult gen? They added in tavas, so having an additional ult gen mechanic for the DK can be tricky to add without it being op

Armitas · May 2016

RoamingRiverElk wrote: »

Would magicka dk be too OP if we could activate dragon leap while rooted?

As this is our cheapest Ultimate and our sole source of magicka sustain and our only major source of stamina sustain in the entire class through battle roar we really should not be denied our sustain from a simple root. This really should break roots. It's also our only reliable form of mobility as chains works about 20% of the time due to coding failures and dodge roll. (Oddly they work more often if you cast it while charging a heavy attack)

I can't tell you how many times I have died due to no sustain in the class and having my battle roar denied by a common root. The roots are non stop in the game because of bombard spam. I use to have dawn breaker as my cheap second but that will be gone in DB.

Ishammael · May 2016

BlackMadara wrote: »

I think battle roar still scales the amount of resources you recieve with your max resources. modified by ult cost.

Battle Roar resource return is scaled on each individual resource, correct. It used to scale solely on magicka plus ultimate -- but it hasn't been like that for more than a year. This is a change which is reasonable.

BlackMadara wrote: »

@Ishammael At its core, I do agree that dragon blood, cinder storm, and ult gen for the DK should be looked into. What do you think should be done about reflect and ult gen? They added in tavas, so having an additional ult gen mechanic for the DK can be tricky to add without it being op

If they add Evasion to cinder storm then it will give mDK a reliable method to utilize Tava. Shuffle is an expensive stamina cost for a mDK which still needs to block. Minor heroism would be an easy way for mDK to get a little extra ultimate like the stamDK -- adding it to Inferno, Stone Fist, or Dragon Blood might make sense.

Joy_Division · May 2016

@Armitas , @Ghost-Shot , @Ishammael @ others

TY for keeping up the good fight!

The more I think about this change, the more I dislike it:

Abilities that heal based on their damage done (Strife, Puncturing Sweeps, etc.) will no longer “double dip” in the Critical Strike modifier.

OK ZoS, it's one thing to absolutely gut Dragon Blood and be 100% unresponsive to the frustrations DKs have over this ability. Now you are nerfing the amount of healing potential from the other avenues available from the class (Embers, Inhale, Flame Lash, etc). I am (err ... was) a mighty Dragonknight. Hear me roar. I don't want to have to be forced to use a wimpy restoration staff when I have class abilities that are supposed to sustain my health; it totally defeats their purpose!

The relative balance between damage and healing is already rather delicate. Damage is insane, heal debuffs are allowed to "double-dip" or "triple-dip" via stacking, and the introduction of poisons is going to make staying alive that much harder. The last thing PvP needs is to make it harder to counter all that. And what's worse in my opinion, is this nerfed is not universally directed, rather it is pointed right at magicka DKs (and magicka NBs), who derive a large portion of their healing through such skills, whereas say a stamplar would not notice this change as traditional heals are not effected.

"Double-dipping" is not necessary a bad thing. Indeed if it exists and reasonable balance exists because of it, there is no need to remove it.

Edit: I did some testing on Live and it would appear the Burning Embers and Inhale do not crit heal. I could have *swore* Inhale did at some point. I thought the same for Flame Lash, it can crit right? In any event, this appears to be less an issues for DKs than what it theoretically could have been. I still can't say I like the change.

Sucks to be a funnel/Sap NB though ...

Wollust · May 2016

Why should a puny root prevent a mighty dragon from taking off?

genjutsu_kami · May 2016

vortexman11 wrote: »

vortexman11 wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

Recremen wrote: »

Moglijuana wrote: »

um...are people seriously worried about the color of an ability vs other abilities that actually have legit problems?? LOL.

All I want is ash cloud/eruption to cast at my feet and give me dodge chance while standing in it =(. That's it. Ok...maybe a 1k dmg buff to whip...Is that too hard to ask for ZOS????

Aesthetics and graphical issues are a very important element of this game and what drew many of us here to begin with, the nuance between green puke and orange flame is therefore just as important as the nuance between dodge chance and a slow.

meh. I guess I am just more interested in having a class that actually works correctly in a competitive environment vs looking like it works correctly...if you have a pile of crap, you can change the colors of it all you want. In the end however, it is still a pile of crap...tbh I never even use Burning Breath (Noxious Breath now?) because there are much better skills to use imo.

There are already more than enough posts about the graphical issues of ONE ability. I think they get it. Remember DK's have more than just ONE ability that need more than a color change... there are LOTS of good ideas in this thread don't get me wrong, but multiple pages about an aesthetic is kind of redundant imo, especially when our class heal is weaker than vigor, we no longer have an execute, molten pops you out of stealth, whip hits like a noodle, DRAGON LEAP BUGGING OUT etc... colors of an ability are definitely not comparable to actual combat mechanics. One appeases your eyes, the other actually determines if you live or die...but hey, that's just me and what I look for when testing things.

While everything you said is true, I'm pretty sure we all know what ZOS' priorities are by now, I'm thinking the visual effects will be fixed/changed before much else. Sorry for being so pessimistic.

10 Days Later...

Dragonknight
Ardent Flame
Noxious Breath (Fiery Breath morph):
Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.

This morph now has a new icon.

Venomous Claw (Searing Strike morph):
Updated the visual effects for this morph based on your feedback.

This morph now has a new icon.

#Priorities

the fact that he guessed this right shows how pathetic you developers at ZOS really are. You guys are stealing a living

Joy_Division · May 2016

Grr...quoting myself

Recremen · May 2016

Wollust wrote: »

Why should a puny root prevent a mighty dragon from taking off?

Yeah this is pretty odd and annoying. Meteor unstoppable, undodgeable, tracks you wherever you go, and can't be reflected because that's apparently too good a counter, but any root can stop a DK leap? Nooooo thanks.