Official Feedback Thread for Item Traits

code65536 · May 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

Dual Wield:
Other + Other: 1,602 (is the normal benefit of DW)

Other + Nirn: 1,748 (is above with the 146 increase of 1 Nirn)

Nirn + Nirn: 1,777 (this is odd: the additional Nirn gives only 29 increase !!!)

Working as intended.

Dual-wield has always been 100% main-hand + 20% off-hand.

So usually, it would be 1335 + 0.2*1335 = 1602. This is what you observed.

Nirn boosts the tooltip of that item by 11%. So a single nirn sword will have a tooltip of 1481 (1335*1.11).

If the main hand is nirn, and the off-hand is non-nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1335 = 1748. This is what you observed.

If both are nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1481 = 1777. Again, this is what you observed.

Because nirn now modifies the tooltip of that specific item instead of your overall SD/WD, the dual-wield off-hand slot is the absolute worst place to put a nirnhoned item because it suffers an 80% potency loss. In contrast, traits that affect overall character-wide stats (e.g., Precise, Sharpened, or the pre-nerf Nirn) are agnostic to what slot they're in, and will be fully potent regardless of whether they are main-hand or off-hand.

Ishammael · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Dual Wield:
Other + Other: 1,602 (is the normal benefit of DW)

Other + Nirn: 1,748 (is above with the 146 increase of 1 Nirn)

Nirn + Nirn: 1,777 (this is odd: the additional Nirn gives only 29 increase !!!)

Working as intended.

Dual-wield has always been 100% main-hand + 20% off-hand.

So usually, it would be 1335 + 0.2*1335 = 1602. This is what you observed.

Nirn boosts the tooltip of that item by 11%. So a single nirn sword will have a tooltip of 1481 (1335*1.11).

If the main hand is nirn, and the off-hand is non-nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1335 = 1748. This is what you observed.

If both are nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1481 = 1777. Again, this is what you observed.

Because nirn now modifies the tooltip of that specific item instead of your overall SD/WD, the dual-wield off-hand slot is the absolute worst place to put a nirnhoned item because it suffers an 80% potency loss. In contrast, traits that affect overall character-wide stats (e.g., Precise, Sharpened, or the pre-nerf Nirn) are agnostic to what slot they're in, and will be fully potent regardless of whether they are main-hand or off-hand.

The bottom line: Unless you're attacking 0 resistance (e.g. shields), Sharpened is strictly superior to Nirnhoned

hrothbern · May 2016

code65536 wrote: »

hrothbern wrote: »

Dual Wield:
Other + Other: 1,602 (is the normal benefit of DW)

Other + Nirn: 1,748 (is above with the 146 increase of 1 Nirn)

Nirn + Nirn: 1,777 (this is odd: the additional Nirn gives only 29 increase !!!)

Working as intended.

Dual-wield has always been 100% main-hand + 20% off-hand.

So usually, it would be 1335 + 0.2*1335 = 1602. This is what you observed.

Nirn boosts the tooltip of that item by 11%. So a single nirn sword will have a tooltip of 1481 (1335*1.11).

If the main hand is nirn, and the off-hand is non-nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1335 = 1748. This is what you observed.

If both are nirn, then it would be 1481 + 0.2*1481 = 1777. Again, this is what you observed.

Because nirn now modifies the tooltip of that specific item instead of your overall SD/WD, the dual-wield off-hand slot is the absolute worst place to put a nirnhoned item because it suffers an 80% potency loss. In contrast, traits that affect overall character-wide stats (e.g., Precise, Sharpened, or the pre-nerf Nirn) are agnostic to what slot they're in, and will be fully potent regardless of whether they are main-hand or off-hand.

@code65536 ,
Thanks for the clarification

Joy_Division · May 2016

In general, I am satisfied enough with most of these at the moment as they have seemed to open more competitive options and should certainly help with the frustration itemization that was one of ESO's biggest weaknesses. Specific comments:

Weapons

Powered (healing): Excellent idea. A bit too narrow and could probably either use a little buff or do something in addition to add healing. As a healer myself, I still probably would want precise for the versatility, but that's just MHO.
Charged (increase status effect): In a word uninspiring. Weapons with it will be deconned. You can do better here ZoS! Suggest: +% percent damage to light and heavy attacks (you do seem to love giving us sets for that, how about some synergy?).
Infused (augments enchants): Excellent coupled with the increased effectiveness of said enchants. Good job!
Defending: Legit option.
Sharpened (penetration): Probably the best. Though not universally true.
Decisive (ultimate gain): Exactly the type of bonus I think is best, something not quantifiable, yet desirable. Huge problem though - it's not going to generate enough ultimate to beat out the other options (except perhaps Charged). Would you agree average ultimate generation is always getting the +3 per tick? 30 ticks in one minute = roughly 20 extra ultimate gained ... for a player with using both hand for a weapon (tanks only get half this). Even a ultimate gaining machine who 50% of the time somehow gets some other form of ultimate per tick will only get 30 extra ultimate ... assuming this set allows for multiple procs on the same tick. Nova costs 240. Standard costs 250. I'll take a sharpened weapon rather than wait the 8 minutes I can get to drop an additional ultimate.
Nirnhoned (higher weapon/spell power): Ideal Vs. shielded players with critical resistance. A needed option.

In general, I do think penetration has always been a bit too obvious best-in-slot. I would like to see more attention paid to those traits whose power is more subtle such as decisive, charged, and perhaps powered (simply because it is so niche) because I still think ZoS is going to get a lot of /feedback about frustration getting a non-sharpened reward weapon.

Speaking of reward drops, please make note of Powered's specific function (i.e. no maces!).

Armor

Sturdy (reduce block): Heavy armor users aren't going to be happy their best passive is now on this trait. I like the idea of offering reduce block to other armors, but not sure stripping it from heavy is a good idea. Suggest: Keep, but do not make this a multiplicative bonus and do not allow it to stack with bracing (which I think in some form belongs with heavy armor).
Well-fitted (reduce penalty to sprint and dodge-rolling): Pretty solid now.
Prosperous (increased gold loot): An excellent set for folks starting the game. Please do *not* have this on reward loot tables.
Nirnhoned and Reinforced (increase resistance): I understand one is better for "big" pieces and the other is better for "small' pieces, however this is totally redundant, a waste of a means to add diversity, and players will get annoyed when the "wrong" trait appears on their rewards. Suggest changing Nirnhoned: it's magical and mysterious (and rare) so it shouldn't have a generic bonus. Small chance for ultimate regen, reducing the cost to break free, tiny chance to absorb attacks, increase the potency of ultimates, maybe something to make it the light armor trait defense of choice since well-fitted is the medium armor trait, etc, something more interesting and useful than a re-skinned reinforced please!

I'm not sure Reinforced was on the same level as infused/divines so I am surprised it wasn't buffed and Nirnhoned, a rare trait, was relegated to performing the same function. I think many players will still be unsatisfied with reinforced Valkyn Skoira hats and (now) nirnhoned Engine Guardian Pauldrons. I think it would behoove ZoS to *really* make an effort to at least make all of the traits appealing in some way, which would go a long, long way to reducing the number of threads on these forms complaining about the loot system, begging for tokens, and in general alleviate the frustrations players have constantly repeating the same content over and over again because some traits are just undesirable in light of others.

ycodryn · May 2016

For pain in the ass to gather nirn weapon trait is not worth anymore. Better leave it alone like it was.

timidobserver · May 2016

Expanded the weapons awarded through the Maelstrom Arena leaderboard to include a wider variety of Traits, including Nirnhoned.

^Apply this to dungeons like ICP and WGT and also make sure that the impenetrable trait drops in all VMA, trials, and dungeons.

Septimus_Magna · May 2016

hrothbern wrote: »

I did some weapon crafting in PTS and there is an oddity with the Nirn Weapon Trait:
For Dual Wield: Nirn + Nirn gives hardly more benefit than Nirn + another Trait on the other weapon: 1,777 against 1,743.

IDK if that is intended.

Spell and Weapon Damage from stat overview value. Weapons are CP-160, gold:
One handed:
Other: 1,335 (is the normal base value)

Nirn: 1,481 (is incl the 11% or 146 increase of Nirn)

Dual Wield:
Other + Other: 1,602 (is the normal benefit of DW)

Other + Nirn: 1,748 (is above with the 146 increase of 1 Nirn)

Nirn + Nirn: 1,777 (this is odd: the additional Nirn gives only 29 increase !!!)

Two-handed (Maul, Axe, Sword):
Other: 1,571 (is the normal base value)

Nirn: 1,743 (is incl the 11% or 172 increase of Nirn)

The primary weapon adds 100% weapon/spell dmg and the off-hand adds 20%.

This makes nirn completely useless on the off-hand weapon.

They really didnt think this through, I mean 11% of 20% of 1335 for a gold nirn sword, thats something like 29 extra weapon/spell dmg.

Tevalaur · May 2016

Can anyone provide more details on the percentages/numbers for the traits at qualities below Legendary/gold?

I'd really like to get the data to fill out the Armor Traits & Weapon Traits tables on my website.

ContraTempo · May 2016

So if ZOS is going to go ahead with the Nirn nerf, should it still be as super rare and ultra expensive as it is now? It seems to me they need to greatly increase the drop rate along with this nerf.

ContraTempo · May 2016

Tevalaur wrote: »

Can anyone provide more details on the percentages/numbers for the traits at qualities below Legendary/gold?

I'd really like to get the data to fill out the Armor Trait and Weapon Trait tables.

Here is training:

Color.........Weapon........Armor

White..........+2.5%..........+7%
Green..........+3%.............+8%
Blue.............+3.5%..........+9%
Purple..........+4%...........+10%
Gold.............+4.5%........+11%

Agency79 · May 2016

Weapons' traits:

Nirnhoned's change is pretty brutal. I get making it offensive only, and making it a useful trait for stamina classes. Those are good changes. I don't get significantly weakening it to the point that I'm only going to choose to use it on dropped weapons until I get a "good" trait (eg sharpened or precise). And as of right now I'll likely not even use it on crafted weapons in PVP - which means I'll have a handful of very expensive weapons that are gonna be worse the moment DB is released. It's kinda discouraging

Sharpened - I like that this is getting buffed.

The ultimate gaining one (formerly weighted) - it's still really really lame, according to the handful of tests I've seen people do.

Training - sweet, a trait for levelling and grinding!

Hutch679 · May 2016

estera wrote: »

>After reviewing the changes we’ve made to item traits, are there any traits that you still don’t find appealing?
The difference between Reinforced and new Nirnhoned traits is now in quantities, not in qualities.
These two traits increase the same attribute but for different amount.
Nirnhoned trait is better than Impenetrable on all but 6 items - heavy and medium for chests, heavies for head, shoulders, legs and feet.
At the same time replacing legendary Reinforced shield, heavies for hands and waist with Nirnhoned items will increase my tank's armor rating by 260 only which is less that 1%.

Summary for legendary VR16 items:
- Tanks (full heavy and shield) will get a tiny buff to their armor rating.
- Full medium armor users will get a 315(2.4%) armor bonus comparing to Reinforced variant.
- Full light armor users will get 907(10%) armor bonus comparing to Reinforced variant.
- Full light armor users will get 3% spell resistance and 28% physical resistance bonus comparing to original Nirnhoned variant.

Traits looks pretty match the same for all but light armor users.
It would be nice to have more significant difference between these two traits, and I am not talking about sheer numbers.

All numbers below are for cp160 (a.k.a. VR16) items

What is the base armor value for physical resistance before any gear?

Malanor · May 2016

I hate new Training. Whats the point of increasing exp for kills. Is it a joke when MMO explicitly hints you to grind mobs. But guess what?

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:
Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

Now with the nerf to mob grinding it's even more joke. The only way to grind exp for alts if you have more than 200 CP is a quest grinding. So training is useless for the old players and offenssive for the new ones.

GJ ZOS!
It's like patch was designing by the people who dont communocate with each other.

Tevalaur · May 2016

ContraTempo wrote: »

Tevalaur wrote: »

Can anyone provide more details on the percentages/numbers for the traits at qualities below Legendary/gold?

I'd really like to get the data to fill out the Armor Traits & Weapon Traits tables on my website.

Here is training:

Color.........Weapon........Armor
White..........+2.5%..........+7%
Green..........+3%.............+8%
Blue.............+3.5%..........+9%
Purple..........+4%...........+10%
Gold.............+4.5%........+11%

Thank you, but that info is/has been already available and is in the tables. I'm hoping to get the other information.

ferryofacheronub17_ESO · May 2016

With all the focus on getting players to do light/heavy attacks, old weighted was nice especially with 2H fully charged heavy which is ultra slow.

Tarrin · May 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes for Item Traits. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
After reviewing the changes we’ve made to item traits, are there any traits that you still don’t find appealing?

Were there any traits in particular that you were excited about?

1. Yes, it`s Infused for weapons, wich is unusable for Poisons. It doesnt work with them.
2. Well-fitted and Training are very cute.

Reorx_Holybeard · May 2016

Malanor wrote: »

I hate new Training. Whats the point of increasing exp for kills. Is it a joke when MMO explicitly hints you to grind mobs. But guess what?

Experience gain rules will continue to function as they did for Veteran Ranks:
Mobs 40 Champion Points below your level will grant 75% of their normal XP.
Mobs 50 or more Champion Points below your level will grant 30% of their normal XP.

Now with the nerf to mob grinding it's even more joke. The only way to grind exp for alts if you have more than 200 CP is a quest grinding. So training is useless for the old players and offenssive for the new ones.

GJ ZOS!
It's like patch was designing by the people who dont communocate with each other.

Its a little confusing as they are using CP in a "level" context here. For example, I'm at the cap of 501 CP but my "level" is still "level 50 CP160". Your CP caps at 160 when used as your "level". Basically you'll get the same XP for things as you do now. I confirmed this by going to Wrothgar and at 501CP I'm getting the same XP for things as I am on live.

I would suggest they make that particular statement a little more clear, perhaps by adding that the current CP cap for levels is 160 and CP past that is not counted.

TheSpin · May 2016

I totally disagree with the change to training. I don't want training to level my character; I want training to level the armor/weapon skill.

There is plenty of other feedback on other things, and I feel like I can live with whatever other changes are made.

edit:
I can see how the proposed change is better for end game types who have everything maxed. I guess with that in mind it makes sense. I still disagree with the change from a new player/new character perspective. As a subscriber I would have leveled way too fast to do the solo content if I used the new training trait... and I liked the opportunity to try out a new weapon in the mid-levels and catch the weapon skill up to my character level using training.

Cathexis · May 2016

With Matt costs sky high, it would be really nice if we could recustimize items for a smaller material cost.

code65536 · May 2016

Prosperous: This is a junk trait, no better than the old Sturdy trait. I go into more detail in this thread.

Training: Count me as one of the people who liked the old Training trait. It means that I can have a skill line that levels at a faster pace than my character level. It meant, for example, that my sorc was able to use Impulse while he was still in his 30's.

Agency79 · May 2016

The biggest issue I had with traits prior to DB is that 5-6 out of 9 of them are as essentially as useful as no trait at all to me.

So far, it seems like that might be changing to 4-5 out of 9. Some of them have utility where they had none, and I don't think I'm going to gold-upgrade any looted armor with any of the new traits (aside from nirnhoned armor) into gold armor. It's still divines/infused/reinforced there.

The same is true with weapon traits, and unfortunately it's worse there - if the nirnhoned change sticks, then I'll be crafting sharpened/precise weps and banking/deconstructing my nirnhoned weapons.

If your goal with trait changes included making more of them desirable for end game or min/max-ing, there's still work to be done.

LinearParadox · May 2016

I have one major issue with the new trait system, and it's this; a ONE-HANDED WEAPON with the Defending trait, gives more defensive stats than a REINFORCED SHIELD. That's just absurd.
Yes, I know, most people will go for more optimal/'meta' choices like Sharpened or Precise, but the idea that wielding a WEAPON gives better defense than a SHIELD is just silly. That also meas that a Defending 2H weapon grants more defense than a even a 1H Defending and a Reinforced shield since the defending shield grants less than 1/2 the defense of the weapon trait ALONE.
And yes, before anyone asks, this was tested on Gold VR16 gear.
I'm all for diversity, and I like most of the other changes, but if you wanna talk about immersion-breaking, or nonsensical interactions, someone please explain to me how an 8 inch dagger can protect me better than a heavy shield -_-

My suggestion: Either tone down Defending(and to maintain balance, it's opposite, Sharpened) a bit until the numbers make more sense, or give Reinforced some kind of boost when applying to shields.
1H+Shield is NOT a DPS line, it's skills aim mostly towards defending.
2H and DW ARE DPS lines, their skills aim mostly(or completely in DW's case) toward DPS.
There is NO REASON why I should be able to grant my character higher armor with a DPS setup than with a 'defensive' setup.

(Alternate odd-ball solution, give Shields Weapon traits, wouldn't that be interesting???

)

Agency79 · May 2016

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

This is the official feedback thread for the changes for Item Traits. Specific feedback that the team is looking for includes the following:
After reviewing the changes we’ve made to item traits, are there any traits that you still don’t find appealing?

Were there any traits in particular that you were excited about?

Do you have any other general feedback?

General feedback - Will you share your rationale or philosophy behind these changes (regarding trait changes AND any changes)? I've found that simply being able to reference the intent/purpose/philosophy behind a change reduces my confusion and frustration immensely AND allows me to give feedback that is much more on point.

Some specific feedback now:

I don't like that block reduction has been moved to sturdy. My brief analysis says it's still a poor trait because it's better to use other traits and simply have a more expensive block.

I was excited about the one that replaced weighting and now generates more ultimate - then I tested it and grokked the effect of the mechanic -> the more ultimate I would normally generate from one ability or buff, the less useful this trait is. I imagined it being competitive with other traits in builds that can generate a lot of ultimate already, and that's simply not the case. For builds with excellent ultimate generation, the trait seems to say "You generate enough ultimate already, you don't need my help".

Impenetrable is confusing. I want crit damage reduction in PVP, but I don't take durability damage from players.

Well-fitted: If I get a set drop with well-fitted that I would wear (eg, a missing piece of an IC set I'll try out), the dodge roll reduction has some utility. On the other hand, if I want to craft a set of well-fitted to help my new characters run from quest to quest more quickly, it's less useful for that.

Training - I think this will be my go-to trait for crafted sets on my new characters. Somewhat excited about this, but making and levelling new characters isn't something do a ton of.

Prosperous - at first I thought it was kinda neat. Then I realized there's nowhere in the game that I'd go to farm gold. Then I realized I could get dropped sets, like Monster Helms, with prosperous on them. Now I hate it.

Nirnhoned on armor: I'm not sure anyone was using this before, and now it's better than reinforced, on some pieces, for getting high defense. I like it.

Nirnhoned on weapons: Really bummed about this one... are you making nirnhoned trait stones more common or something? Because this is a pretty heavy nerf for the types of builds that used the nirnhoned trait on their weapons. I get that it's better for shields, and that it makes heals bigger. However, sharpened and precise are better for dealing damage. To be honest, I'm not sure how it stacks up for healers vs powered or precise. It still has limited use, though. Perhaps this change will yield an expanded usage, but as someone with 8-10 gold nirnhoned weapons for dealing damage, this really sucks. I've replaced every one of those weapons with sharpened and precise on the PTS.

Ajaxduo · May 2016

I tested decisive with my tava's favor tank build...the additional ulti gain was nice when it triggered but when I switched back to a defending weapon I noticed that there was barely any difference. imo 17% is too low and too RNG dependent compared to something that will always work like defending/infused. I'd like to recommend either increasing it to 25%~ for a legendary one handed weapon. For general tanking it would be nice if this was more viable, but as it is defending on mainhand and infused + crushing enchantment on offhand will be the way to go.

Personofsecrets · May 2016

Players will be more upset about traits than ever before after these trait changes are made. Huge set back

STEVIL · May 2016

Personofsecrets wrote: »

Players will be more upset about traits than ever before after these trait changes are made. Huge set back

I am sure some will, but others not. I think that there is a lot more reason to utilize different traits in this setup than the past.

Running some farming or group crawl content where trial level dps performance not as critical? Training and Prosperous seem useful for sidebar fillers.
Group doesnt have full power dedicated hesler, maybe slot in some powered wpns.

I am pretty good w the direction and figure to be ok with where it settles by the release.

MrTarkanian48 · May 2016

+1 for Buffing the Decisive trait. It is a great idea, but currently not effective in its current state.

Perhaps give it a proc chance to proc Major Heroism

LinearParadox · May 2016

I also agree the proc chance for Decisive seems a bit low.
I'm well aware of the balancing dangers of making the meta into an 'Ult farm race', but as it stands now I can't see anyone taking it, especially not the tanks who can only get it on a 1H weapon
Also, the wording is a little unclear. It says whenever you would 'normally' gain ultimate... does that mean that other sources also have a chance of procing the effect? Each tick of Minor Herosim? The DK passive in Earthen Heart for activating an ability? Invigorating Drain under the Vamp line?
Personally I'm not a fan of RNGs, so I'll almost always take some thing that's 'always active' like Ajaxduo mentioned, rather than banking on RNG.

My suggestion; change the activation parameters.
"Every x seconds, when you would normally gain ultimate, gain one extra ultimate"
White- 6 seconds
Green- 5 seconds
Blue- 4 seconds
Purple- 3 seconds
Gold- 2 seconds.
(Numbers subject to tuning of course.)

Alternatively, leave it as every 6 second or so, and increase the ult gained by 1/quality level or something.

Agency79 · May 2016

An additional 30 ultimate per minute would not outperform any of the currently preferred traits. I'm not even sure 60 would, tbh.

LinearParadox · May 2016

Maybe not, which is why I said numbers would be subject to tuning. However I believe the first step to tuning the values should he to standardize them; trying to balance something that's random in nature, based around an RNG, is always going to be harder.
Remove the RNG, players will be able to see exactly what value they're getting from the trait, and the numbers can be tuned up without the risk of RNG runs of gaining 50 ult in 10 seconds or something like that.

Also, it must be said not all situations are the same, straight-up DPS and numbers aren't always the whole story. Consider Ult gain for tanks, especially DKs who can then turn that into resources via the Battle Roar passive, or even 'Overload Sorcs' who wanna max their ult in between dungeon/trial bosses for easier/faster runs.
I know that fringe cases aren't enough to justify value most times, but they can't be ignored entirely either or you run the risk of unbalancing things that aren't in the spotlight and several weeks later you have something like a few people running around in Cyrodiil with infinite Overload or some such nonsense.

(Edited for completeness of thought)