Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair

snorlockb16_ESO · April 2016

Jeez, take a con ed accounting course.

Subscribers provide regular, predictable monthly income that allows a company to make projections, produce a reasonably accurate budget for the next fiscal period and attain quarterly targets. Crown sales are random.

Both models have their advantages, but if you are going to keep subscriptions then there needs to be a reason for customers to buy them. Such as receiving something that cannot be gained by simply buying crowns.

Lysette · April 2016

Brangwen wrote: »

I think it's nice to see an actual perk to being subscribed. Banking crafting mats isn't that much of an issue, but it does make it simpler to not have to switch characters to banking alts.

Not just that, it is a real benefit for new players, if they subscribe, because they will not have to struggle with the inventory like non-subscribers. So it makes sense for new players to become subscribers and with it they commit to a game and will most likely spend more time with it - so this is a win-win situation for ZOS and for new players, who subscribe.

There are a lot of new players incoming currently, starter zones are crowded. And this will convert ESO into a subscription game on a voluntary basis - and this is a good thing, I personally support subscription games, where subscribers are really getting access to all of the content (but cosmetic stuff) with their subscription. This is what ZOS aimed for in the first place, it did not work out as planned, and so they found a new way, to get to this. And doing this bag well, was a very smart move.

Edit: and as subscribers get crowns as well, they even get access to some of the cosmetic and convenient items as well with their subscription - so why the heck do you guys not want to subscribe?

Sunburnt_Penguin · April 2016

I've no idea how you guys are still arguing after being 30 pages deep. Just move on, neither parties are going to change their mindset.

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

I guess what it may have shown is that while zos appreciates the subs (which it should, they contribute just as much as everyone else) it may not appreciate the B2P sales, therefor mustn't need them and can survive well enough on the subs it already has.

oh wait...
http://www.killerguides.net/blog/mmorpg/why-the-elder-scrolls-online-subscriptions-tanked
An extract from that article but I encourage reading it fully as it's very informative and echoes a lot of earlier suppositions from both sides of the discussion:

"It is hard to track the numbers to display this decline in player interest, but we can piece together disparate data to show the drop in subscribers.
Being a private company, Bethesda is not beholden to anyone to release revenue data, but analyst firm SuperData says that subscribers as of June 2014 – or two months after release – numbered around 772,000.
This is woefully low compared to the 5 million players that registered for The Elder Scrolls Online beta, or the estimated 1.2 million players that may have bought both digital and physical copies.
(The 1.2 million copies sold statistic comes from the 4:1 formula for digital sales as a ratio of physical copies. It has been officially confirmed that The Elder Scrolls Online sold 300,000 physical edition boxes, including the Standard and Imperial editions.)
It does not take a math wizard to conclude that The Elder Scrolls Online has since seen a massive drop from the 772,000 subscribers in June 2014.
By the near-end of 2014, forum posters began complaining that the game is beginning to feel empty and dead. There were also cries for help from players claiming their servers were deserted and they had been having a lot of trouble finding players to group with."

After spending so much already through the B2P model which was brought in because the sub model wasn't generating enough income I've absolutely no incentive to sub, which is fine, It's great to know the sub model is now at a level that can keep the ongoing development sustained (if we were to believe some forum posts regarding us filthy non sub peseants)
I own all of the past DLCs and can continue them anytime I want, do my dailies or reroll a char, do a trial or two etc, while a crafting bag would be useful it isn't a game breaker... there are plenty of other games out there to throw money at and I can just treat ESO as F2P as I've had my use from what I've already paid for through B2P, other peoples subs can cover the cost of future development and upkeep while I enjoy the fruits of their income for free

And please stop with the rhetoric of how subs contribute more and it's a steady forecastable income because we all know a lot of you only sub for the month of PTS and dlc release and a lot of you will only sub for the months you need to put crafting items into your bags, yes most B2P may very well be sporadic too but I would conservatively imagine that somewhere in the middle we level eachother out.

The facts are these, both subs and B2P players contribute to the game as a whole, if B2P players all cut their loses a huge portion of income would be lost and servers would be deserted again.
B2P was introduced because it was needed, to now give that portion of the player base the middle finger and attempt to "incentivize" them into buying into a sub model after they've already spent so much and in order to gain access to something we've all requested repeatedly since the beginning, is a really shady and unethical business practice.

Yes it is a business, they could have simply removed or extended the bank space allowance, they chose to capitalise on it and why shouldn't they.
We're not asking for it for free, we're not even saying subscribers shouldn't have it for free ontop of the many perks and free crowns they already get each month for their continued support, we're simply asking for a crown store option... at a reasonable price

As a B2P player I personally don't mind if some players only buy the base game and never sub or don't buy crowns at all, I play alongside those people, they contribute to the game too, they help in quests, they group in trials, they add to the ingame economy, they are the community too.

The one educational thing about this thread: it has really opened my eyes to the types of people some of you are, the venomous and insulting comments while frothing at the mouth over something which could benefit the whole community by generating more income is an underlying snobbish and elitist attitude, it's disappointing tbh, some of you should look inwardly and try to become better people, donate some time to a good cause or something, anything has to be better than how you are behaving.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Fact is no matter how you slice it they make more money off subs. Its quite obvious its why they made the bag a sub only perk. Because they want subs. Subs are what make money every month. So its logical they would make this a sub perk. people who dont sub their game doesnt change. Everything is still the same for them. The only thing you dont have is some minor xp boosts and some extra bank space. Hardly game ending and will make a ton of money for ZOS.

So please site where your theory is fact and accurate.
I do believe a company can better predict future profits from the combination is subscribers and upcoming marketing promotions and product releases but subscriptions alone do not make the company more money. The value of a subscriber is that the company starts with a set group to market to to upsale. So basically if you're an ESO Plus subscriber, you're only actually more valuable of each month you're buying extra crowns on top of your sub. That's how it works cause it's cheaper to market to ppl who are visually seen. The silly thing about it all is that all of us are playing the game and their stores are within the game, so technically the value of the subscriber doesn't apply strict to this model.

Ppl don't always pay the sub or can't or just in sub after paying so it's not as you suggest

Any active customer which is defined as someone who logs in once a month is open to this marketing. Those of us who also go onto the forums at least once a month are more likely to be influenced

That is a fact.
It takes money, staff, incentives to keep subscribers. The same applies to ppl that just buy. They are one in the same as far as profit. Point is, the two combined are required and not that one is more important than any other.

ZOS' problem is that they can easily influence an upsale as well as tic off customers as they've not learned to be non abrasive this this entire topic and the prior topics from all those who want ESO plus benefits to change.

In the end...what makes everyone happy is to at a min
For subscribers (ESO Plus) and those who spend 2k or more in crowns each month to offer the bag. Period.
That's not charity, that business.

Ppl who want the bag for free or less than a reasonable price aren't in the conversation, they are just noise. Thing is, no price has been established so due to the fault and lack of marketing from ZOS they can't seperate noise from the actual discussion. That's their dilemma tho.

This topic is clear.
ESO plus subs want benefits. They see the bag as one so they want it and don't want others to have it. Bad
Non subs that buy crowns monthly want to jus buy it and don't care what occurs with ESO plus subs...fine but ZOS should address ESO plus sub benefits.

ESO plus subscribers feel devalued....not cause if bags are given in crowns but because they are paying for a program that has no value. ZOS needs to address that but locking a feature behind a sub isn't addressing the issue. It's causing more issues

Lysette · April 2016

Well, all this stuff about numbers of subscribers and such is guess work - it is not a fact - basically made up numbers. ZOS is not a company which would have to openly publish their numbers. So ZOS and probably their investors know about those, but all other are just guessing - i give a damn about those guesses.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

Hmm so you think hoping people spend money is better than guaranteed money every month? Sorry but thats not how business works. if you want the bag subscribe. If you dont subscribe nothing changes for you. You still have access to everything you paid for. The bag will never be in the store. It would defeat the entire purpose of it to put it in the store. Its a perk to get people to pay every month forever.

Wanderinlost · April 2016

There are so many ways to improve ESO+ without using a feature, any feature. Everyone in this game should have access to all features, it is essentially what "NO SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED" means. No matter how you argue it this is not a sub game anymore and they cannot reasonably expect to ever change it back to a sub only game. Holding most of the playerbase over a barrel for a major QoL feature is not good for anyone, and I am puzzled how you all convince yourselves it is a good thing. Would 25%+ of the B2P population paying for this feature and being able to use it somehow diminish what you are getting? How? Whether the bag is on the crown store or not does not change its inherent value. You can purchase it yourself at any time, and the feature is just as valuable to everyone. Since when does not selling something turn into more money? Only when you are manipulating the market. ZOS owns the market so perhaps that is their prerogative, but perhaps this is also about ESO+ members having an easier time manipulating the ingame markets too. Corruption breeds corruption right? Some players get a 300 slot advantage, can loot more, craft more, all faster with less inconvenience. The rest who don't get that chance are then less able to compete. I could be way off base, perhaps it is nothing more than wanting special treatment. If you are not getting something more than others then who are you? Just another one of the peasants without a crafting bag.

me_ming · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus?

Which is exactly what they are doing with the bags. And whatever other really valuable feature they'd put into ESO+ as incentive to sub, you'd ALSO want in the crown store.

At this stage (29 pages) I firmly think all "unfair" arguments are made up as a disguise for a very simple "I need it because I want it, full stop" attitude.

If you cannot understand the difference in revenue for ZOS between a rented feature and a sold feature, it's hopeless.

(NB : I don't sub).

The bag is not an enhanced benefit. It's a completely new feature.
You don't set a new feature behind a sub. It's not hard to understand...it's 29 pages of selfish intent.
Benefits are things like:
-faster mount training resets
-reduced daily timers on dungeon finder
-have 3 runs vs 1 run with a blue undaunted item and 101k exp
-reduce research by 50-75%
-increase exp by 50%
-increase gold drops by 50%
-get early access to DLC a week in advance

People are arguing that because they want to sub, that ZOS needs to make changes so subbing has value.
Ok

Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory

Why would anyone sub if you can just purchase it in the Crown Store? Because hey, if I can just purchase it one-time, why would I put myself in a situation where I would have to worry maintaining my sub? If they would put this in the Crown Store I would definitely cancel my sub and just buy it one-time, it's more convenient for me that way. I can just buy any other DLC individually anyways, and the extra xp is cool, but I can just craft xp pots. And when DB DLC lunches training trait will give me more xp. I mean, what's the point of if there's nothing unique/advantageous from maintaining a sub?

And yes, the argument is about ZOS trying to make to people sub, can you fault them for that? What I don't understand about your argument is you seem to want what subs have too, but you don't want to sub, hmmmm... A little selfish in my perspective.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

Wanderinlost wrote: »

There are so many ways to improve ESO+ without using a feature, any feature. Everyone in this game should have access to all features, it is essentially what "NO SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED" means. No matter how you argue it this is not a sub game anymore and they cannot reasonably expect to ever change it back to a sub only game. Holding most of the playerbase over a barrel for a major QoL feature is not good for anyone, and I am puzzled how you all convince yourselves it is a good thing. Would 25%+ of the B2P population paying for this feature and being able to use it somehow diminish what you are getting? How? Whether the bag is on the crown store or not does not change its inherent value. You can purchase it yourself at any time, and the feature is just as valuable to everyone. Since when does not selling something turn into more money? Only when you are manipulating the market. ZOS owns the market so perhaps that is their prerogative, but perhaps this is also about ESO+ members having an easier time manipulating the ingame markets too. Corruption breeds corruption right? Some players get a 300 slot advantage, can loot more, craft more, all faster with less inconvenience. The rest who don't get that chance are then less able to compete. I could be way off base, perhaps it is nothing more than wanting special treatment. If you are not getting something more than others then who are you? Just another one of the peasants without a crafting bag.

No subscription required does not translate to I get everything for free. The fact is the game works just fine without this crafting bag. Its not something you need. We have lived without it for years now. All it does is add extra bank space as a perk. Same as the 10% extra gold and 10% extra xp as a permanent buff. If you are getting something other people arent its called being a subscriber. If you dont want to pay fine but dont belittle people who do and claim this is some kind of insult against you personally.

snorlockb16_ESO · April 2016

Lysette wrote: »

Well, all this stuff about numbers of subscribers and such is guess work - it is not a fact - basically made up numbers. ZOS is not a company which would have to openly publish their numbers. So ZOS and probably their investors know about those, but all other are just guessing - i give a damn about those guesses.

No, not guesswork. Microeconomics, management accounting, and marketing are all based on understanding sales trends according to various specific sales models. You cannot state for certainty that a specific pricing system will yield a specific revenue, but you can certainly make a projection of your margins.

CaptainBeerDude · April 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.

Give them exactly what they want.

There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?

Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly

@Tommy1979AtWar
Generally not how a business works, Buddy. Usually you only get a refund on a faulty item.
You seem to be under some sort of weird impression that an unlimited storage bag for crafting mats is for sale. This game has no such item. It has a very similar item which is avaliable to rent.
Also, your continued attempts to dazzle all and sundry with your extensive crown purchases are falling fairly flat. If you indeed spend that much on crowns, you are the extreme minority. I'm sure there are plenty of subscribers who have spent a similar quantity on this game, if not more. There is probably also a large number of subscribers who would have spent more. @GrumpStump for confirmation please. And now that I think of how many crowns that would get, did you just go to the crown store and order a menu?
You have some serious under estimations on the price of this as well. For a quick example, let's assume you own a house that you do not require for care of yourself or your family. You decide to rent it out, to turn a small income out of it. Someone comes up to you and says, "Well, I don't want to rent it. But I will buy it." Do you take the quick income spike now or do you decline the offer and continue to rent it out for the smaller but regular income.
If an unlimited crafting bag becomes avaliable in the crown store, the bare minimum price is the cost of subbing for a year. I think it would be more. A limited bag would probably be as much as assistants and probably be smaller than you want.
And before you start going on about how I must be a subber, sitting on my high horse, gazing at all the peons...
I don't sub. I also think this is a fantastic benefit for people who do. Hell, I want it so bad that I've almost gotten over having to pay 2 usage fees because console.
Now go try some other B2P or F2P games, see what they do for money and then return and let us know what you think of them. ESO+ is great because it doesn't give you an insurmountable advantage, just some QoL perks. Once they add another one that interests me, or buff the existing ones so that I like them more, they'll have me. Hook, line and sinker.

Well done for completely missing my sarcasm in reply to a sarcastic comment, I knew I was subtle but wow I'm better than I thought lol

~thumbs up buddy~

So, you have about the same amount of interest in a discussion as subbing?
Carry on with your troll then.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

snorlockb16_ESO wrote: »

Lysette wrote: »

Well, all this stuff about numbers of subscribers and such is guess work - it is not a fact - basically made up numbers. ZOS is not a company which would have to openly publish their numbers. So ZOS and probably their investors know about those, but all other are just guessing - i give a damn about those guesses.

No, not guesswork. Microeconomics, management accounting, and marketing are all based on understanding sales trends according to various specific sales models. You cannot state for certainty that a specific pricing system will yield a specific revenue, but you can certainly make a projection of your margins.

Also while we dont know exactly what the numbers are it doesnt take a genius to figure out $15 a month in perpetuity is far better than a one time purchase of 5000 crowns. I guess these guys dont watch Shark Tank on ABC heh.

Tommy1979AtWar · April 2016

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.

Give them exactly what they want.

There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?

Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly

@Tommy1979AtWar
Generally not how a business works, Buddy. Usually you only get a refund on a faulty item.
You seem to be under some sort of weird impression that an unlimited storage bag for crafting mats is for sale. This game has no such item. It has a very similar item which is avaliable to rent.
Also, your continued attempts to dazzle all and sundry with your extensive crown purchases are falling fairly flat. If you indeed spend that much on crowns, you are the extreme minority. I'm sure there are plenty of subscribers who have spent a similar quantity on this game, if not more. There is probably also a large number of subscribers who would have spent more. @GrumpStump for confirmation please. And now that I think of how many crowns that would get, did you just go to the crown store and order a menu?
You have some serious under estimations on the price of this as well. For a quick example, let's assume you own a house that you do not require for care of yourself or your family. You decide to rent it out, to turn a small income out of it. Someone comes up to you and says, "Well, I don't want to rent it. But I will buy it." Do you take the quick income spike now or do you decline the offer and continue to rent it out for the smaller but regular income.
If an unlimited crafting bag becomes avaliable in the crown store, the bare minimum price is the cost of subbing for a year. I think it would be more. A limited bag would probably be as much as assistants and probably be smaller than you want.
And before you start going on about how I must be a subber, sitting on my high horse, gazing at all the peons...
I don't sub. I also think this is a fantastic benefit for people who do. Hell, I want it so bad that I've almost gotten over having to pay 2 usage fees because console.
Now go try some other B2P or F2P games, see what they do for money and then return and let us know what you think of them. ESO+ is great because it doesn't give you an insurmountable advantage, just some QoL perks. Once they add another one that interests me, or buff the existing ones so that I like them more, they'll have me. Hook, line and sinker.

Well done for completely missing my sarcasm in reply to a sarcastic comment, I knew I was subtle but wow I'm better than I thought lol

~thumbs up buddy~

So, you have about the same amount of interest in a discussion as subbing?
Carry on with your troll then.

lmao two for two buddy, you'll get there in the end

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory

Let's take math, it's unbiased.

A=numbers of crafting bags units = numbers of subscribers
B=number of month of subscription
C=monthly subscription fee
Z = total income generated by bags via subscription

Z=A*B*C .
note that B is infinite. Therefore Z is infinite.

D=number of one-time purchasers of crafting bag
E=price of bag
W= total income generated by bags via crown purchases.

W=D*E
note that both D and E are finite figures. Therefore W is finite. Even IF E is considerably higher than C, and even IF D is significantly higher than A, W will still be considerably lower than Z because finite will never beat infinite.

Also note :

- the "infinite" nature of B is strongly reinforced by the fact that once players are getting used to the convenience of a crafting bag, it will be extremely difficult for them to go back and play without it.

- If there was a crown store offer, an increase in D would necessarily imply a decrease in A. Noone sensible want to fragilize a potentially infinite result for a short-term finite result.

That's it.

I'm sorry for my english, not my native language. If someone more versed in mathematical demonstrations want to rephrase or re-explain with more style and clarity, please do.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Hmm so you think hoping people spend money is better than guaranteed money every month? Sorry but thats not how business works. if you want the bag subscribe. If you dont subscribe nothing changes for you. You still have access to everything you paid for. The bag will never be in the store. It would defeat the entire purpose of it to put it in the store. Its a perk to get people to pay every month forever.

You're now apply your own thing and not literally what I wrote.
I'm not here for that

VodkaVixen1979 · April 2016

I am wondering how many of the subbers on here are PC. If I was on that platform I would also sub, probably on the 6 month at a time plan. XBox players have a different issue though. We already pay $5 a month to play online, but not only that - ESO+ is bugged into oblivion atm.

I would sub (even though I purchased all DLCs plus additional crowns) IF it was $10 per month to offset what I am already forced to pay and IF it actually worked properly on Xbox. Why should I have to pay $20 to get what you only pay $15 for? They opened this game up to console because it is a huuuuuuge market and large source of income. We also don't have an add on for everything short of wiping your rear end. Sounds to me like PC just wants the easy button and doesn't want anyone else to have the same toys as they do. If I also get a Barbie Doll, does that really makes your doll less fun to play with? Or mean that your Barbie gets taken away? Subbers are showing their true colors as venomous and selfish....smh.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

Hmm so you think hoping people spend money is better than guaranteed money every month? Sorry but thats not how business works. if you want the bag subscribe. If you dont subscribe nothing changes for you. You still have access to everything you paid for. The bag will never be in the store. It would defeat the entire purpose of it to put it in the store. Its a perk to get people to pay every month forever.

You're now apply your own thing and not literally what I wrote.
I'm not here for that

You want to argue that people who dont sub spend as much or more than people who. Thats simply not the case. If it was this bag wouldnt be needed to get people to subscribe. $15 a month guaranteed > maybe you will buy crowns maybe you wont.

Wanderinlost · April 2016

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

No subscription required does not translate to I get everything for free. The fact is the game works just fine without this crafting bag. Its not something you need. We have lived without it for years now. All it does is add extra bank space as a perk. Same as the 10% extra gold and 10% extra xp as a permanent buff. If you are getting something other people arent its called being a subscriber. If you dont want to pay fine but dont belittle people who do and claim this is some kind of insult against you personally.

That is not what I wrote, perhaps you should scroll up and read again. The bag is not a perk. A perk is crowns per month, XP bonuses etc., not a massive functionality feature. Does the game work fine? No it doesn't. I and many others were requesting this weeks and months after the game launched, and have been waiting patiently since. It has affected every hour of gameplay and will continue to.

lathbury · April 2016

looking forward to having all that bank space

aubrey.baconb16_ESO · April 2016

Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »

The one educational thing about this thread: it has really opened my eyes to the types of people some of you are, the venomous and insulting comments while frothing at the mouth over something which could benefit the whole community by generating more income is an underlying snobbish and elitist attitude, it's disappointing tbh, some of you should look inwardly and try to become better people, donate some time to a good cause or something, anything has to be better than how you are behaving.

To @Tommy1979AtWar and @NewBlacksmurf and all those who think that those of us who sub and don't want non-subs to get crafting bags are bad people. To make such a massive judgement on such a minor issue is so pathetic that it defies belief. I could give you a list of reasons why I'm subjectively a good person but objectively to you, because of this issue, I am a bad person. My answer is; I don't give a *** what you think, I know the truth and that all that matters to me.

As @Sunburnt_Penguin says above. We're getting them, you aren't, get over it. LOL.

CaptainBeerDude · April 2016

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

CaptainBeerDude wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Xundiin wrote: »

Zyle wrote: »

Dahkoht wrote: »

Mercymae wrote: »

Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.

You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.

"They don't agree with what I think, they must be whiny, bratty and entitled"

Sound logic.

It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."

The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.

And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty BS.

This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.

The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.

A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.

ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.

Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.

The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.

Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.

Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.

@NewBlacksmurf

A couple of things:
Offering it for sale in the CS devalues it as a subscription incentive. If it can be purchased outright, it is no longer an incentive to subscribe.
Subscription is their preferred business model. I believe you like necromancy, find out what ZOS' official stance was before they submitted to B2P.
It has been pointed out repeatedly that subs benefits are sorely lacking. What would you offer in a subscription package to convince me to sub? Bear in mind that current benefits and the crafting bag are almost enough to get me in and I have very little interest in most of the crown store offerings.

Really?
So is ESO plus the issue or the bags?

I believe ESO plus is the issue and not the bag. If you're desire to buy ESO plus is for this bag then the program has no value if you feel that allowing the bag outside of ESO plus devalues ESO plus. It's not that the bag devalues ESO plus....it's that ESO plus has no value because of the benefits offered.

@NewBlacksmurf

Read this bit again. You have pretty much agreed with me here. ESO+ needs to have solid incentives to convince people to subscribe. At the moment they are lacklustre. I used to play DCUO, there was equipment slots that were unavailable and your bank account was limited. I'm sure there was other things, but it was a while ago I'm afraid.
Would you prefer ESO+ offered boni in line with these? That is a system where it is difficult or impossible to compete on an even level without a sub.

Also, re-read my comment to you and it seemed snarky. Apologies if it was offensive.

idk · April 2016

Zos has very good reason to make this bag only available for subs as subs add move value to the business since our income is more reliable and steady. Obviously giving players more reason to sub is a good thing. Comparing the cost of purchasing DLC vs sub is not germane or relevant.

With that, it is a choice to sub or not. You can have the bag if you choose to.

NewBlacksmurf · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

NewBlacksmurf wrote: »

Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory

Let's take math, it's unbiased.

A=numbers of crafting bags units = numbers of subscribers
B=number of month of subscription
C=monthly subscription fee
Z = total income generated by bags via subscription

Z=A*B*C .
note that B is infinite. Therefore Z is infinite.

D=number of one-time purchasers of crafting bag
E=price of bag
W= total income generated by bags via crown purchases.

W=D*E
note that both D and E are finite figures. Therefore W is finite. Even IF E is considerably higher than C, and even IF D is significantly higher than A, W will still be considerably lower than Z because finite will never beat infinite.

Also note :

- the "infinite" nature of B is strongly reinforced by the fact that once players are getting used to the convenience of a crafting bag, it will be extremely difficult for them to go back and play without it.

- If there was a crown store offer, an increase in D would necessarily imply a decrease in A. Noone sensible want to fragilize a potentially infinite result for a short-term finite result.

That's it.

I'm sorry for my english, not my native language. If someone more versed in mathematical demonstrations want to rephrase or re-explain with more style and clarity, please do.

So are you saying that outside of ESO plus, the bag cost should be monthly to be profitable.
OK
But why that?

ESO Plus...the whole point of the program is to allow a customer who doesn't want to pay for content (funny ) to sub and never loose access while the sub is active. The program grants loyalty rewards in crowns so if the customer does want to buy an expansion or any other crown item, they can. Ppl have even suggested to lower the ESO price and no change in benefits or keep the price and upgrade (increase the existing benefits) or offer discounts for crown store purchases. O K

the purpose of this is for pre ESO plus subscribers to keep the same manageable sub cost for DLC access.

Funny above because back then $15/month was fine for only access to DLC and base game but now all of a sudden there is a need for more.

You're getting free DLC access for the cost of 1500 crowns a month and other added benefits that you may or may not use but honestly, no other benefits are needed. Due to forum feedback tho, I'd say ZOS needs to look at changes
But let's be clear. Subbing shouldn't ever cause anyone to feel entitled for more than a paying customer who doesn't sub.

That's why this bag doesn't fit exclusively there. I think it's fine as added to ESO plus. No argument there.
I also know that not offering outside of ESO plus is a bad move and decision for ZOS based on actual forum feedback as well as a different example like Destiny. They created an expansion and only allowed new features to be sold exclusively. Having spend over $119 prior to this on that game, I and 60 others that I play with left and didn't buy the newest expansion.

Even with recent sales of half off, we didn't buy or go back.
That's a personal example of why adding a new feature and locking it behind something like this is bad. Different situation but the same concept.

So ESO plus benefits would need to stay as a noun and not a verb use. It's not a benefit if other customers can't experience the benefits. It's something else the

JD2013 · April 2016

Okay, here's a question.

If they introduced the exact same bag into the crown store, what would be the motivation to keep a subscription, given that this is a perk to encourage subscribers?

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

Wanderinlost wrote: »

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »

No subscription required does not translate to I get everything for free. The fact is the game works just fine without this crafting bag. Its not something you need. We have lived without it for years now. All it does is add extra bank space as a perk. Same as the 10% extra gold and 10% extra xp as a permanent buff. If you are getting something other people arent its called being a subscriber. If you dont want to pay fine but dont belittle people who do and claim this is some kind of insult against you personally.

That is not what I wrote, perhaps you should scroll up and read again. The bag is not a perk. A perk is crowns per month, XP bonuses etc., not a massive functionality feature. Does the game work fine? No it doesn't. I and many others were requesting this weeks and months after the game launched, and have been waiting patiently since. It has affected every hour of gameplay and will continue to.

Extra bank space IS a perk. Its not something you need. It doesnt help you win. It doesnt hold anything but crafting mats. Come on man please stop with the hyperbole.

Sunburnt_Penguin · April 2016

@aubrey.baconb16_ESO

I just find it hilarious reading all of these comments as there's like: 5 different arguments going on, all involving different people who are all arguing the same points. They've all got in so deep that even if someone did say something to change someone's perspective, they wouldn't admit to it and just keep rambling on.

I'm gonna stick my money on 59 pages worth of comments before it gets locked.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

JD2013 wrote: »

Okay, here's a question.

If they introduced the exact same bag into the crown store, what would be the motivation to keep a subscription, given that this is a perk to encourage subscribers?

There would be no reason to subscribe if its in the store. Unless like I said it cost 150,000 crowns. Im pretty sure ZOS went over all this already internally. Incentives to subscribe are a good thing. If you would pay say 50,000 crowns for it why not just sub for a few years instead. You get the bag and 1500 crowns a month on top of what you were going to spend.

Which makes me think people wouldnt want to spend more than say 1000 crowns on it. Which would be silly to sell it for that price. Also would be silly to list something for 50,000 crowns on the store. So they went with the only real option. Making it a sub only perk.

Wanderinlost · April 2016

Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »

Zos has very good reason to make this bag only available for subs as subs add move value to the business since our income is more reliable and steady. Obviously giving players more reason to sub is a good thing. Comparing the cost of purchasing DLC vs sub is not germane or relevant.

With that, it is a choice to sub or not. You can have the bag if you choose to.

Yeah subscriptions are so stable that every game in the MMO sphere has converted to a F2P, hybrid, or B2P over the past 5 years. Even WoW bleeds a few million within a month or two of every expansion. This game bled so many subs it went B2P in a year. Wildstar subs were so bad it will probably be forever stunted. There is nothing to suggest that a crafting bag is going to turn ESO into a solid sub game. At best it will be abused, at worse it will have unintended and costly consequences. You want people to spend money and earn real loyalty, not compel customers into doing something they don't want to do for a single feature and go against the premise of your business model in the process.

Acharnor · April 2016

WOW - this has got to be the most looked at post ever! One thing is for sure - passion abounds on both sides.