I think it's nice to see an actual perk to being subscribed. Banking crafting mats isn't that much of an issue, but it does make it simpler to not have to switch characters to banking alts.
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Fact is no matter how you slice it they make more money off subs. Its quite obvious its why they made the bag a sub only perk. Because they want subs. Subs are what make money every month. So its logical they would make this a sub perk. people who dont sub their game doesnt change. Everything is still the same for them. The only thing you dont have is some minor xp boosts and some extra bank space. Hardly game ending and will make a ton of money for ZOS.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Can ZOS exchange ESO plus to not hate a feature behind it but instead, actually offer enhanced benefits to having ESO plus?
Which is exactly what they are doing with the bags. And whatever other really valuable feature they'd put into ESO+ as incentive to sub, you'd ALSO want in the crown store.
At this stage (29 pages) I firmly think all "unfair" arguments are made up as a disguise for a very simple "I need it because I want it, full stop" attitude.
If you cannot understand the difference in revenue for ZOS between a rented feature and a sold feature, it's hopeless.
(NB : I don't sub).
The bag is not an enhanced benefit. It's a completely new feature.
You don't set a new feature behind a sub. It's not hard to understand...it's 29 pages of selfish intent.
Benefits are things like:
-faster mount training resets
-reduced daily timers on dungeon finder
-have 3 runs vs 1 run with a blue undaunted item and 101k exp
-reduce research by 50-75%
-increase exp by 50%
-increase gold drops by 50%
-get early access to DLC a week in advance
People are arguing that because they want to sub, that ZOS needs to make changes so subbing has value.
Ok
Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory
Wanderinlost wrote: »There are so many ways to improve ESO+ without using a feature, any feature. Everyone in this game should have access to all features, it is essentially what "NO SUBSCRIPTION REQUIRED" means. No matter how you argue it this is not a sub game anymore and they cannot reasonably expect to ever change it back to a sub only game. Holding most of the playerbase over a barrel for a major QoL feature is not good for anyone, and I am puzzled how you all convince yourselves it is a good thing. Would 25%+ of the B2P population paying for this feature and being able to use it somehow diminish what you are getting? How? Whether the bag is on the crown store or not does not change its inherent value. You can purchase it yourself at any time, and the feature is just as valuable to everyone. Since when does not selling something turn into more money? Only when you are manipulating the market. ZOS owns the market so perhaps that is their prerogative, but perhaps this is also about ESO+ members having an easier time manipulating the ingame markets too. Corruption breeds corruption right? Some players get a 300 slot advantage, can loot more, craft more, all faster with less inconvenience. The rest who don't get that chance are then less able to compete. I could be way off base, perhaps it is nothing more than wanting special treatment. If you are not getting something more than others then who are you? Just another one of the peasants without a crafting bag.
No, not guesswork. Microeconomics, management accounting, and marketing are all based on understanding sales trends according to various specific sales models. You cannot state for certainty that a specific pricing system will yield a specific revenue, but you can certainly make a projection of your margins.Well, all this stuff about numbers of subscribers and such is guess work - it is not a fact - basically made up numbers. ZOS is not a company which would have to openly publish their numbers. So ZOS and probably their investors know about those, but all other are just guessing - i give a damn about those guesses.
Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.
Give them exactly what they want.
There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?
Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly
@Tommy1979AtWar
Generally not how a business works, Buddy. Usually you only get a refund on a faulty item.
You seem to be under some sort of weird impression that an unlimited storage bag for crafting mats is for sale. This game has no such item. It has a very similar item which is avaliable to rent.
Also, your continued attempts to dazzle all and sundry with your extensive crown purchases are falling fairly flat. If you indeed spend that much on crowns, you are the extreme minority. I'm sure there are plenty of subscribers who have spent a similar quantity on this game, if not more. There is probably also a large number of subscribers who would have spent more. @GrumpStump for confirmation please. And now that I think of how many crowns that would get, did you just go to the crown store and order a menu?
You have some serious under estimations on the price of this as well. For a quick example, let's assume you own a house that you do not require for care of yourself or your family. You decide to rent it out, to turn a small income out of it. Someone comes up to you and says, "Well, I don't want to rent it. But I will buy it." Do you take the quick income spike now or do you decline the offer and continue to rent it out for the smaller but regular income.
If an unlimited crafting bag becomes avaliable in the crown store, the bare minimum price is the cost of subbing for a year. I think it would be more. A limited bag would probably be as much as assistants and probably be smaller than you want.
And before you start going on about how I must be a subber, sitting on my high horse, gazing at all the peons...
I don't sub. I also think this is a fantastic benefit for people who do. Hell, I want it so bad that I've almost gotten over having to pay 2 usage fees because console.
Now go try some other B2P or F2P games, see what they do for money and then return and let us know what you think of them. ESO+ is great because it doesn't give you an insurmountable advantage, just some QoL perks. Once they add another one that interests me, or buff the existing ones so that I like them more, they'll have me. Hook, line and sinker.
Well done for completely missing my sarcasm in reply to a sarcastic comment, I knew I was subtle but wow I'm better than I thought lol
~thumbs up buddy~
snorlockb16_ESO wrote: »No, not guesswork. Microeconomics, management accounting, and marketing are all based on understanding sales trends according to various specific sales models. You cannot state for certainty that a specific pricing system will yield a specific revenue, but you can certainly make a projection of your margins.Well, all this stuff about numbers of subscribers and such is guess work - it is not a fact - basically made up numbers. ZOS is not a company which would have to openly publish their numbers. So ZOS and probably their investors know about those, but all other are just guessing - i give a damn about those guesses.
CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »Just sell the crafting bags for 200.00 lifetime fee for those who want to whine and gnash about it being a sub only perk and saying it has to be in the crown store also.
Give them exactly what they want.
There's no way they would then whine about the price is there ?
Sure... just get zos to gimme back the $365 back I've already spent through B2P and I'll happily pay that as a lifetime fee while you lot continue to pay monthly
@Tommy1979AtWar
Generally not how a business works, Buddy. Usually you only get a refund on a faulty item.
You seem to be under some sort of weird impression that an unlimited storage bag for crafting mats is for sale. This game has no such item. It has a very similar item which is avaliable to rent.
Also, your continued attempts to dazzle all and sundry with your extensive crown purchases are falling fairly flat. If you indeed spend that much on crowns, you are the extreme minority. I'm sure there are plenty of subscribers who have spent a similar quantity on this game, if not more. There is probably also a large number of subscribers who would have spent more. @GrumpStump for confirmation please. And now that I think of how many crowns that would get, did you just go to the crown store and order a menu?
You have some serious under estimations on the price of this as well. For a quick example, let's assume you own a house that you do not require for care of yourself or your family. You decide to rent it out, to turn a small income out of it. Someone comes up to you and says, "Well, I don't want to rent it. But I will buy it." Do you take the quick income spike now or do you decline the offer and continue to rent it out for the smaller but regular income.
If an unlimited crafting bag becomes avaliable in the crown store, the bare minimum price is the cost of subbing for a year. I think it would be more. A limited bag would probably be as much as assistants and probably be smaller than you want.
And before you start going on about how I must be a subber, sitting on my high horse, gazing at all the peons...
I don't sub. I also think this is a fantastic benefit for people who do. Hell, I want it so bad that I've almost gotten over having to pay 2 usage fees because console.
Now go try some other B2P or F2P games, see what they do for money and then return and let us know what you think of them. ESO+ is great because it doesn't give you an insurmountable advantage, just some QoL perks. Once they add another one that interests me, or buff the existing ones so that I like them more, they'll have me. Hook, line and sinker.
Well done for completely missing my sarcasm in reply to a sarcastic comment, I knew I was subtle but wow I'm better than I thought lol
~thumbs up buddy~
So, you have about the same amount of interest in a discussion as subbing?
Carry on with your troll then.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm so you think hoping people spend money is better than guaranteed money every month? Sorry but thats not how business works. if you want the bag subscribe. If you dont subscribe nothing changes for you. You still have access to everything you paid for. The bag will never be in the store. It would defeat the entire purpose of it to put it in the store. Its a perk to get people to pay every month forever.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »Hmm so you think hoping people spend money is better than guaranteed money every month? Sorry but thats not how business works. if you want the bag subscribe. If you dont subscribe nothing changes for you. You still have access to everything you paid for. The bag will never be in the store. It would defeat the entire purpose of it to put it in the store. Its a perk to get people to pay every month forever.
You're now apply your own thing and not literally what I wrote.
I'm not here for that
jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
No subscription required does not translate to I get everything for free. The fact is the game works just fine without this crafting bag. Its not something you need. We have lived without it for years now. All it does is add extra bank space as a perk. Same as the 10% extra gold and 10% extra xp as a permanent buff. If you are getting something other people arent its called being a subscriber. If you dont want to pay fine but dont belittle people who do and claim this is some kind of insult against you personally.
Tommy1979AtWar wrote: »The one educational thing about this thread: it has really opened my eyes to the types of people some of you are, the venomous and insulting comments while frothing at the mouth over something which could benefit the whole community by generating more income is an underlying snobbish and elitist attitude, it's disappointing tbh, some of you should look inwardly and try to become better people, donate some time to a good cause or something, anything has to be better than how you are behaving.
NewBlacksmurf wrote: »CaptainBeerDude wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Psst the whole reason they are doing it for the subs is they want more people to sub. A reliable revenue stream is what you take to your higher ups (ya know those guys in suits who only care that the game is profitable) There should be some sort of option for non subs to get some sort of crafting bag even if its limited to like 100 slots. But since they are basing off of a revenue standpoint it may be awhile before we see that. If subs don't increase due to the bag, we can just about guarantee it will be available in the crown store.
You are trying to introduce logic and sound economic practices to a whining , bratty , I deserve what I want for what I want to pay for it , crowd that just cannot grasp such concepts.
"They don't agree with what I think, they must be whiny, bratty and entitled"
Sound logic.
It has nothing to do with what they agree with. It's has every thing to do with the fact that many people have been explaining exactly how the models work and where most of the money comes from to generate new content and fix bugs. Anyone who understand a basic business model knows that reliable income, even in smaller increments, is way more desirable than a sporadic income. This is the logic that is failing to be seen by you and many of the "It's not fair crowd."
The fact that most of the people crying about this bags where more than likely not here when it was a sub only game can't see the pace at which things get done. You want better balancing and bug fixes? So do I. Guess what. Under the sub model *** got done in a reasonable time frame. Not like now where we have to wait for DLC's for bug fixes to come IF then even come.
And to the person who says if we knew what the company was spending our money on we wouldn't spend it? Yeah I'm sorry, but if buying every developer golden toilet paper would get better and faster updates to bugs in game or latency fixed in Cyrodiil... well then just let me know what karat you want. I mean seriously. Such petty BS.
This concept is about 20 years old.
Subscriptions....
Cell phone companies are going away from it
Cable providers are going away from it
Video games are going away from it
Insurance companies are going away from it
Car companies and mortgage are going away from it
You can flat out pay up front and be done. No contract as it's literally the sale point of many of the above now.
The idea that a customer will pledge and fulfill that pledge is not a plan, it's Hope and hope is not a plan.
A plan for stable financials is understanding your product and your potential and current customer base.
Specific to this game, a larger portion of customers aren't keen to a sub model so as such, a sub focus will cause the company to fail if the goals are solely based on this.
ZOS is not solely based on a sub nor are they planning to survive off a sub.
They are adjusting the product so one type of customer (the subscriber) who expressed discontent with the benefits of the sub product, changes are needed. And yes they are.
Now that has nothing at all to do with people who don't sub who don't want to sub who do want to buy a crafting bag and other crown items.
The argument being had isn't necessary. If you are a subscriber....please chill because no one is asking to take any benefits away from your sub
They are asking to offer a purchase in addition to the sub crafting bag benefit.
It's no different than exp scrolls or gold increases and reduced research time. Some of that stuff would be asked for as crown purchases too if it meant something to those who don't sub but the reality is the only ESO benefit that means anything to anyone is DLC access.
Everything else is being asked to change, enchanted or update.
Let's stop arguing about who gets what cause the crafting bag flat out should be avilable via crowns. And because it was announced for ESO plus, that should stay too.
@NewBlacksmurf
A couple of things:
Offering it for sale in the CS devalues it as a subscription incentive. If it can be purchased outright, it is no longer an incentive to subscribe.
Subscription is their preferred business model. I believe you like necromancy, find out what ZOS' official stance was before they submitted to B2P.
It has been pointed out repeatedly that subs benefits are sorely lacking. What would you offer in a subscription package to convince me to sub? Bear in mind that current benefits and the crafting bag are almost enough to get me in and I have very little interest in most of the crown store offerings.
Really?
So is ESO plus the issue or the bags?
I believe ESO plus is the issue and not the bag. If you're desire to buy ESO plus is for this bag then the program has no value if you feel that allowing the bag outside of ESO plus devalues ESO plus. It's not that the bag devalues ESO plus....it's that ESO plus has no value because of the benefits offered.
anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »NewBlacksmurf wrote: »Tell me specifically how allowing a bag purchase without needing ESO plus hurts or devalues ESO plus.
Please because all you all have shared are extremely biased theories and selfish reasons that express that you feel that a subscriber is more valuable to a company...which is also an opinion and a theory
Let's take math, it's unbiased.
A=numbers of crafting bags units = numbers of subscribers
B=number of month of subscription
C=monthly subscription fee
Z = total income generated by bags via subscription
Z=A*B*C .
note that B is infinite. Therefore Z is infinite.
D=number of one-time purchasers of crafting bag
E=price of bag
W= total income generated by bags via crown purchases.
W=D*E
note that both D and E are finite figures. Therefore W is finite. Even IF E is considerably higher than C, and even IF D is significantly higher than A, W will still be considerably lower than Z because finite will never beat infinite.
Also note :
- the "infinite" nature of B is strongly reinforced by the fact that once players are getting used to the convenience of a crafting bag, it will be extremely difficult for them to go back and play without it.
- If there was a crown store offer, an increase in D would necessarily imply a decrease in A. Noone sensible want to fragilize a potentially infinite result for a short-term finite result.
That's it.
I'm sorry for my english, not my native language. If someone more versed in mathematical demonstrations want to rephrase or re-explain with more style and clarity, please do.
Wanderinlost wrote: »jamesharv2005ub17_ESO wrote: »
No subscription required does not translate to I get everything for free. The fact is the game works just fine without this crafting bag. Its not something you need. We have lived without it for years now. All it does is add extra bank space as a perk. Same as the 10% extra gold and 10% extra xp as a permanent buff. If you are getting something other people arent its called being a subscriber. If you dont want to pay fine but dont belittle people who do and claim this is some kind of insult against you personally.
That is not what I wrote, perhaps you should scroll up and read again. The bag is not a perk. A perk is crowns per month, XP bonuses etc., not a massive functionality feature. Does the game work fine? No it doesn't. I and many others were requesting this weeks and months after the game launched, and have been waiting patiently since. It has affected every hour of gameplay and will continue to.
Okay, here's a question.
If they introduced the exact same bag into the crown store, what would be the motivation to keep a subscription, given that this is a perk to encourage subscribers?
Giles.floydub17_ESO wrote: »Zos has very good reason to make this bag only available for subs as subs add move value to the business since our income is more reliable and steady. Obviously giving players more reason to sub is a good thing. Comparing the cost of purchasing DLC vs sub is not germane or relevant.
With that, it is a choice to sub or not. You can have the bag if you choose to.