Crating Bag Exclusivity is Unfair

Buffler · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I must say... well done @Wanderinlost for sticking this thread out, and good job on pushing some buttons.

@Flaminir is right, ESO+ does need incentives. This is something I have been shouting about on the forums since Feb 2015, when the B2P plan was announced (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150450/eso-subscription-benefits-suggestions/p1). ESO+ as it is, isn't good enough to subscribe. ESO+ should make subscribers feel like they are getting something special and should make people want the benefits. It should NOT make people feel like their *insert game mechanic here* is gimped if they DON'T subscribe.

To me the subscription benefit MOST akin to this (in 'spirit') is SWTOR's sub benefit of being able to run and boy, do people hate that benefit. It's not that you can't get anywhere in SWTOR without the sub, it's that you can get there FASTER if you do.

There are other benefits ZOS could give to subscribers. Like...
Crown Store Discounts

Early access to DLC

Exclusive Crown Store section that contains:
Exclusive mount & pet "skins"

Early access to pets and costumes

Longer Access to limited time mounts

Faster rotation of limited items

Additional character slots

The ability to join additional Guilds

Monthly subscriber treasure maps

In light of how ZOS has been treating DLCs with Collectors editions I also believe ESO+ should get:
Free ESO+ dependent access to
Collectors Edition Mount

Collectors Edition Pet

and they should also get
Crown Experience Pack

And the NUMBER ONE thing that ESO+ should have:
DLC ownership over time. There are many ways this could be accomplished fairly for ZOS and players. You get DLC for subscribing for a period of time.

What do NONE of these suggestions do? None of these suggestions put a fix for a game mechanic we have complained about since just about day one behind the subscription.

ZOS is trying to take advantage of it's player base by trying to strongarm us into subscribing. It's a shame how many people seem like they are going to re-up because of this.

ZOS wins... because they are playing a dirty game.

Get a grip pal, strongarming us lol.....nobody is forcing anybody to do anything

Gidorick · April 2016

EZgoin76 wrote: »

I think it's completely fair to give us subs something worthwhile and substantial for subbing. That being said. I also like a couple of @Gidorick s ideas. No not the damn Auction Horse either.

Instead of giving non-subs the same crafting bag subs are getting. At least put something in the crown store to alleviate non-subs inventory problems. By this I don't mean the extra character slots to make mules either. I mean a per character bag that can hold so many items.

500 crown bag = 50 spaces
1000 crown bag = 100 spaces
1500 crown bag = 150 spaces

Doesn't have to be those prices. It's just an example but you get my point.

That way subs still get something exclusive and non-subs have a way to carry more stuff.

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Gidorick · April 2016

Buffler wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I must say... well done @Wanderinlost for sticking this thread out, and good job on pushing some buttons.

@Flaminir is right, ESO+ does need incentives. This is something I have been shouting about on the forums since Feb 2015, when the B2P plan was announced (http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/150450/eso-subscription-benefits-suggestions/p1). ESO+ as it is, isn't good enough to subscribe. ESO+ should make subscribers feel like they are getting something special and should make people want the benefits. It should NOT make people feel like their *insert game mechanic here* is gimped if they DON'T subscribe.

To me the subscription benefit MOST akin to this (in 'spirit') is SWTOR's sub benefit of being able to run and boy, do people hate that benefit. It's not that you can't get anywhere in SWTOR without the sub, it's that you can get there FASTER if you do.

There are other benefits ZOS could give to subscribers. Like...
Crown Store Discounts

Early access to DLC

Exclusive Crown Store section that contains:
Exclusive mount & pet "skins"

Early access to pets and costumes

Longer Access to limited time mounts

Faster rotation of limited items

Additional character slots

The ability to join additional Guilds

Monthly subscriber treasure maps

In light of how ZOS has been treating DLCs with Collectors editions I also believe ESO+ should get:
Free ESO+ dependent access to
Collectors Edition Mount

Collectors Edition Pet

and they should also get
Crown Experience Pack

And the NUMBER ONE thing that ESO+ should have:
DLC ownership over time. There are many ways this could be accomplished fairly for ZOS and players. You get DLC for subscribing for a period of time.

What do NONE of these suggestions do? None of these suggestions put a fix for a game mechanic we have complained about since just about day one behind the subscription.

ZOS is trying to take advantage of it's player base by trying to strongarm us into subscribing. It's a shame how many people seem like they are going to re-up because of this.

ZOS wins... because they are playing a dirty game.

Get a grip pal, strongarming us lol.....nobody is forcing anybody to do anything

It's called "Dramatic effect" @Buffler

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2016

Just curious for those who dont believe crafting bags in any form will come to the crown store, why? Is it because ZoS stated it would be exclusive?

If they do show up on the crown store, in some manner, how will you feel?

@Flaminir I agree with much of your assessment but I think you're leaving out the realities on console. I would imagine less subs there since there is the live fee. Not entirely sure if crafting bags is a big enough carrot to drive subs on console but could be perfect for one-time character specific purchases. While a steady stream is very important, to my knowledge B2P games thrive on the stores and/or make subbing a near requirement for full enjoyment of the game. Adding crafting, in my opinion, bags does neither looking across all platforms. It isnt a pigeon-hole into subbing and (currently) is not on cstore... so it really is just a 'perk' currently.

O and how its currently designed doesnt lend itself to sub sustainability. Sub fill bag with a mind numbing amount of crafting materials- unsub. Resub when fill is necessary.

Wanderinlost · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I must say... well done @Wanderinlost for sticking this thread out, and good job on pushing some buttons.

Thanks, think it's time to call it a night though. :P Hopefully you will have more luck with this than I XD

Sort of blows my mind how so many are supportive of exclusivity when it offers them zero additional benefit. Like most of the population not having even the option to purchase a key feature is somehow a good thing.

Destruent · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Uh, they change something with your inventory with dark brotherhood for non-subscribers? That's new to me, pls explain

Gidorick · April 2016

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

If they do show up on the crown store, in some manner, how will you feel?

heheh.. @jcasini222ub17_ESO I believe that term is "Eating Crow"

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

If these do show up in the crown store they will be flooded with cancellations. Hence why they wont be in the crown store.

Gidorick · April 2016

Wanderinlost wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I must say... well done @Wanderinlost for sticking this thread out, and good job on pushing some buttons.

Thanks, think it's time to call it a night though. :P Hopefully you will have more luck with this than I XD

Sort of blows my mind how so many are supportive of exclusivity when it offers them zero additional benefit. Like most of the population not having even the option to purchase a key feature is somehow a good thing.

I honestly think it's that most ESO+ members who have been defending ESO+ all this time have secretly felt it wasn't a good deal and wished there was something else. Now that something else, ANYTHING else, is coming to ESO+ as a benefit they want to protect that. They want it to remain an ESO+ benefit to justify the fact that they have subscribed and will remain subscribed.

And I completely get that perspective.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Wanderinlost wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I must say... well done @Wanderinlost for sticking this thread out, and good job on pushing some buttons.

Thanks, think it's time to call it a night though. :P Hopefully you will have more luck with this than I XD

Sort of blows my mind how so many are supportive of exclusivity when it offers them zero additional benefit. Like most of the population not having even the option to purchase a key feature is somehow a good thing.

I honestly think it's that most ESO+ members who have been defending ESO+ all this time have secretly felt it wasn't a good deal and wished there was something else. Now that something else, ANYTHING else, is coming to ESO+ as a benefit they want to protect that. They want it to remain an ESO+ benefit to justify the fact that they have subscribed and will remain subscribed.

And I completely get that perspective.

Secretly? Ive openly said the sub isnt worth the price. With this perk it is. 1000s and 1000s will resub for this. Meaning more money which means more and better content. Its a huge win for ZOS it will generate them a ton of money. Its not something you can put on the crown store either. If a banker with little use is 5000 this would cost 50,000 crowns. I believe thats why they locked it behind the sub fee.

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2016

Yea I just don't see the exclusivity lasting. I've heard the mass cancelation story before between the b2p and sub switch. I ate alot of crow for them going from sub (preferred way for me) to b2p. I currently don't sub and dont see a crafting bag changing that.

I still don't think this will fly all that well on console, a main reason why this game dropped sub model in the first place. Only to hear a year later 'hey we added this badass perk for you and your team of ultimate badasses who you craft for- but you gotta sub for it and pay that live fee'.... yea idk how that'll work on console.

Color me skeptical but so far when ZoS has said x is definite we should expect y.

Gidorick · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Uh, they change something with your inventory with dark brotherhood for non-subscribers? That's new to me, pls explain

Ah, I see what you're doing there Destruent but the fact is they ARE changing the inventory SYSTEM in Dark Brotherhood update. They are adding Crafting Bags. This is a fix to, what many players feel, is a terrible inventory system.

Destruent · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Uh, they change something with your inventory with dark brotherhood for non-subscribers? That's new to me, pls explain

Ah, I see what you're doing there Destruent but the fact is they ARE changing the inventory SYSTEM in Dark Brotherhood update. They are adding Crafting Bags. This is a fix to, what many players feel, is a terrible inventory system.

No, it doesn't change your inventory if you NOT subscribe. I played with this inventory for over 2 years now and it works. You can get a better inventory if you subscribe. But your inventory doesn't get worse if you do not subscribe. That's a big difference.

jamesharv2005ub17_ESO · April 2016

jcasini222ub17_ESO wrote: »

Yea I just don't see the exclusivity lasting. I've heard the mass cancelation story before between the b2p and sub switch. I ate alot of crow for them going from sub (preferred way for me) to b2p. I currently don't sub and dont see a crafting bag changing that.

I still don't think this will fly all that well on console, a main reason why this game dropped sub model in the first place. Only to hear a year later 'hey we added this badass perk for you and your team of ultimate badasses who you craft for- but you gotta sub for it and pay that live fee'.... yea idk how that'll work on console.

Color me skeptical but so far when ZoS has said x is definite we should expect y.

How is this exactly a "badass" perk? Its only a convenience. A "badass" perk would be like subs get free end game gear via boxes or crates like other games. Hardly badass. Yes it is nice not having to juggle my crafting inventory but thats not something I consider as "badass" or a must have. I could live without it if I was too broke to pay a sub. Or just didnt feel like paying a sub.

Averya_Teira · April 2016

How is it unfair ? Sub players get a new perk and free players stay exactly like we are right now. It's not like they are removing something from you...

jcasini222ub17_ESO · April 2016

Back when I was crafting for others I would have loved, loved, loved this badass perk. I hate mule usage, I love being immersed in each character I make. If your crafting for a bunch of people across various levels and would prefer to actually have inventory to collect unique things this would be a godsend of a perk. But I'm nowhere near that invested in this game anymore as many/most of the people I crafted for have moved on.

So yea we just disagree.

damn this site is so skittish with phone posting

Gidorick · April 2016

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Uh, they change something with your inventory with dark brotherhood for non-subscribers? That's new to me, pls explain

Ah, I see what you're doing there Destruent but the fact is they ARE changing the inventory SYSTEM in Dark Brotherhood update. They are adding Crafting Bags. This is a fix to, what many players feel, is a terrible inventory system.

No, it doesn't change your inventory if you NOT subscribe. I played with this inventory for over 2 years now and it works. You can get a better inventory if you subscribe. But your inventory doesn't get worse if you do not subscribe. That's a big difference.

Not really @Destruent since many of us have asked for a better inventory for quite a long time. For many of us the inventory is not good enough.

There are two arguments here. One is dependent on whether or not we agree that the inventory is something that needs "Fixing". If we disagree that it is, we can't really argue the merit of crafting bags as an ESO+ benefit because we disagree on the broken status of the inventory. You do, however, agree that it will be a better inventory. So we can work with that.

They are holding back a better inventory from those that do not subscribe. So you have to continually pay a monthly subscription otherwise your inventory will get/be worse. ZOS has finally recognized that inventory management needs help... but they have chosen to withhold a fix from players unless those players give them a monthly stipend.

Also, by a better inventory existing, the "base" inventory system becomes the worse system. If you DO subscribe but then unsubscribe your inventory will indeed become "worse".

If you don't see that as a sleazy practice then we are at an impasse of opinions.

Arobain · April 2016

its not unfair, you're unfair

Destruent · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

Destruent wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

I think many of us who are complaining about this benefit would be totally fine with that solution @EZgoin76 ! We don't mind paying for benefits. What we mind is the mafia-type tactics ZOS is using to get our money.

" Hey... you got this months 'protection' money? If not... somethin' bad is gonna happen your inventory" *softly claps fist in the palm of the other hand*

And good job on the Auction Horse call-back mate. Made me chuckle.

Uh, they change something with your inventory with dark brotherhood for non-subscribers? That's new to me, pls explain

Ah, I see what you're doing there Destruent but the fact is they ARE changing the inventory SYSTEM in Dark Brotherhood update. They are adding Crafting Bags. This is a fix to, what many players feel, is a terrible inventory system.

No, it doesn't change your inventory if you NOT subscribe. I played with this inventory for over 2 years now and it works. You can get a better inventory if you subscribe. But your inventory doesn't get worse if you do not subscribe. That's a big difference.

Not really @Destruent since many of us have asked for a better inventory for quite a long time. For many of us the inventory is not good enough.

There are two arguments here. One is dependent on whether or not we agree that the inventory is something that needs "Fixing". If we disagree that it is, we can't really argue the merit of crafting bags as an ESO+ benefit because we disagree on the broken status of the inventory. You do, however, agree that it will be a better inventory. So we can work with that.

They are holding back a better inventory from those that do not subscribe. So you have to continually pay a monthly subscription otherwise your inventory will get/be worse. ZOS has finally recognized that inventory management needs help... but they have chosen to withhold a fix from players unless those players give them a monthly stipend.

If you don't see that as a sleazy practice then we are at an impasse of opinions.

they don't change the inventory management, they just increase the effective size of your inventory if you have crafting mats. You are not able to search stuff in your inventory or even sort it by some more categories. Those are needed aswell, imo much more than more space.
What about those subscribers who don't have any crafting mats at all? Should they complain bc they don't get anything at all with this change?

Gidorick · April 2016

Arobain wrote: »

its not unfair, you're unfair

Best post of the thread.

WE'RE DONE HERE! SHUT IT DOWN.

anitajoneb17_ESO · April 2016

Gidorick wrote: »

They are holding back a better inventory from those that do not subscribe. So you have to continually pay a monthly subscription otherwise your inventory will get/be worse. ZOS has finally recognized that inventory management needs help... but they have chosen to withhold a fix from players unless those players give them a monthly stipend.

Now that's a *really* twisted way of seeing things.
With this "technique" you could qualify virtually *any* ESO+ advantage as a "paying fix".

Like...
ZOS has finally recognized that XP is too low in the game and offers the needed fix (+10%) as an ESO+ benefit !!!
or even...
ZOS has finally recognized that players need new content but offer extra content (DLC) only to ESO+ subscribers or for crowns !!!

and so on...

Inventory is fine as it is, it's not broken.
It will be easier with crafting bags but still manageable without them.

Palidon · April 2016

Seems to me the folks complaining about the Crafting Bag being exclusive to ESO Plus Subscribers just want everything to be given to them free. It is about time ESO recognized the ESO Plus Subscribers and gave them something worth while to have a membership.

So all you folks complaining get a membership or deal with it.

Emma_Overload · April 2016

I agree with the OP. A lot of us never wanted the B2P concept to begin with and were happy paying for a sub. Then ZOS sold us on B2P, so we started buying Crowns and DLC. The crafting bag may not sound like such a big deal, but it's kind of a slap in the face to everyone who has spent hundreds on Crown Store stuff.

All ZOS needs to do is offer the crafting bag for like 2000 Crowns or something, and the whole controversy goes away.

Tacadrie · April 2016

You want crafting bag? Just subscribe ESO+ ...

Gidorick · April 2016

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gidorick wrote: »

They are holding back a better inventory from those that do not subscribe. So you have to continually pay a monthly subscription otherwise your inventory will get/be worse. ZOS has finally recognized that inventory management needs help... but they have chosen to withhold a fix from players unless those players give them a monthly stipend.

Now that's a *really* twisted way of seeing things.
With this "technique" you could qualify virtually *any* ESO+ advantage as a "paying fix".

Like...
ZOS has finally recognized that XP is too low in the game and offers the needed fix (+10%) as an ESO+ benefit !!!
or even...
ZOS has finally recognized that players need new content but offer extra content (DLC) only to ESO+ subscribers or for crowns !!!

and so on...

Inventory is fine as it is, it's not broken.
It will be easier with crafting bags but still manageable without them.

If the ESO+ benefit is DIRECTLY addressing something players have complained about since just about the inception of the game then sure... you certainly could call it that. Because at that point it's not a perk, it's a fix.

It's not like we're not willing to pay for this fix, we're just not willing to continually pay for the fix.

And again. We disagree on the broken status of the inventory. This is more the disagreement than the ESO+ disagreement. If inventory weren't a terrible chore to deal with, and has been since the beginning, I wouldn't have as much of a problem. If we could buy additional inventory in the crown store (above and beyond inventory cap), this ESO+ benefit wouldn't be an issue for me.

Zyle · April 2016

Tacadrie wrote: »

You want crafting bag? Just subscribe ESO+ ...

Not enough for me to subscribe, I'm more of a "fix the bugs and get your game stable" subscriber

Averya_Teira · April 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I agree with the OP. A lot of us never wanted the B2P concept to begin with and were happy paying for a sub. Then ZOS sold us on B2P, so we started buying Crowns and DLC. The crafting bag may not sound like such a big deal, but it's kind of a slap in the face to everyone who has spent hundreds on Crown Store stuff.

All ZOS needs to do is offer the crafting bag for like 2000 Crowns or something, and the whole controversy goes away.

If you spent hundreds of dollars on Crowns, I don't think you care about 15$ for ESO+ ...

Gidorick · April 2016

Palidon wrote: »

Seems to me the folks complaining about the Crafting Bag being exclusive to ESO Plus Subscribers just want everything to be given to them free. It is about time ESO recognized the ESO Plus Subscribers and gave them something worth while to have a membership.

So all you folks complaining get a membership or deal with it.

You win the "didn't read" award @Palidon !

No one saying they think we should get the crafting bags for free. We are saying we should also have access to them outside of ESO+.

Gidorick · April 2016

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

I agree with the OP. A lot of us never wanted the B2P concept to begin with and were happy paying for a sub. Then ZOS sold us on B2P, so we started buying Crowns and DLC. The crafting bag may not sound like such a big deal, but it's kind of a slap in the face to everyone who has spent hundreds on Crown Store stuff.

All ZOS needs to do is offer the crafting bag for like 2000 Crowns or something, and the whole controversy goes away.

VERY succinct summary of pretty much everyone's feelings who is on the side of these bags as an ESO+ only benefit being a bad idea @Emma_Eunjung .

When ESO went B2P and the ESO+ benefits were wanting, I decided to drop ESO+ and buy with crowns so my game could be "complete" outside of the subscription. As long as I can buy for crowns the same benefits that ESO+ members get for "free", I'll be happy.

Subscribing now, after buying IC, Orsinium, and Thieves Guild seems kind of like retroactively making my DLC purchases a waste.

Mettaricana · April 2016

To cheap or poor for the sub end of story..

I don't expect to keep my benefits of electricity without paying the bill. Nor can I buy just my AC unit turned on and nothing else.