UnyieldingFlame wrote: »Honestly this forum poster name Strider_Roshin is just wanting Nightblades to be the only viable class in ESO. I would just ignore him and continue on with feedback that doesn't revolve being so bias towards one class.
UnyieldingFlame wrote: »Honestly this forum poster name Strider_Roshin is just wanting Nightblades to be the only viable class in ESO. I would just ignore him and continue on with feedback that doesn't revolve being so bias towards one class.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives.
So why are you wasting your time and energy posting in this thread?it's a waste of time and energy to debate about them when we have so many other more important issues to talk about.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives.
You're not gonna win this one @Autolycus and @Strider_Roshin . The majority of the players believe the nightblades passives are one of the strongest, if not THE strongest in the game. One or two passives seeming lackluster (in reality, they are not) does not necessitate taking a look at them. Nightblade passives are fine. If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. Nightblade passives are sufficient, it's a waste of time and energy to debate about them when we have so many other more important issues to talk about.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives. It doesn't matter if some of the NB passives are better than some of the passives in other classes; it's really not relevant to this discussion.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives. It doesn't matter if some of the NB passives are better than some of the passives in other classes; it's really not relevant to this discussion.
The issue is he didn't present this as "theorycrafting" or "brainstorming" fun ideas. He strait up said in his original post that the 2 passives in question need to be looked at. He implied now, as if they are weak or broken. Several people came in, including NB's, and said naw those passives are already good and giving NB's even BETTER passives on top of their already amazing passives would be unfair and broken being that half the classes in the game have *** passives in need of review first.
I'm not against your changes, I just think NB changes should be at the end of the line since NB is already really amazing.
Edit:
"So there's two passives that I believe deserve our attention. One is directly related to my opening statement, the other I feel just needs to be made more useful."
On top on your +8% magic passive Strider is strait up asking for +8% stamina too. Those are almost close to race passives in strength, that's pretty unfair. No offense meant, it's just your asking for buffs to an already incredibly strong class.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives.
You're not gonna win this one @Autolycus and @Strider_Roshin . The majority of the players believe the nightblades passives are one of the strongest, if not THE strongest in the game. One or two passives seeming lackluster (in reality, they are not) does not necessitate taking a look at them. Nightblade passives are fine. If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. Nightblade passives are sufficient, it's a waste of time and energy to debate about them when we have so many other more important issues to talk about.
This thread is truly lolworthy. NB is the strongest and most well-rounded class in the game right now. And those passives you're targeting are awesome.
I mean really, take a look at DK's Elder Dragon passive.
How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives. It doesn't matter if some of the NB passives are better than some of the passives in other classes; it's really not relevant to this discussion.
@PlagueMonk I agree with a great deal of what you've said. I would add only to this part:As a magblade I find this passive to be completely useless outside of PvP, and in PvP (where most people run recoveries) it's really unnecessary imho. I'd sooner see the whole passive reworked to something that benefits both magblades and stamblades, preferably something usable in all forms of content.PlagueMonk wrote: »Executioner is good for a mageblade but near worthless to a stamblade. I wouldn't want to remove the magicka component since mageblades like this ability but i would like to tweak it have a stamina component added to it.
Strider_Roshin wrote: »Sorcs passives are better:
20% health and stamina, 10% magicka regen
5% cost reduction for stamina and magicka
15% cost reduction for Ultimates
Nightblades have 15% stamina, magicka, and health regen. Oh yes, so OP.
Now everyone who has commented on this thread to whine about your class, please leave. Your comments are useless and you have your own threads to ask for changes.
This thread is for Nightblades who want to brainstorm about how we can change these passives if they feel they need to. Nightblades that disagree with my ideas are more than welcome to comment; as long as your feedback is respectful.
If you are going to list all sorc passives to prove they are stronger you should list all NB passives for an honest comparison. NB have among the best passives in the game (for both magicka and stamina), for this reason most people are going to say no to your requests until the other classes passives get looked over first, especially templar/stam templar/Stam Sorc etc.
Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds.
Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.
After drinking a potion you gain 12 Ultimate.
Activating a Shadow ability gives you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Spell Resistance and Armor by 5120 for 2 seconds. This duration is increased by 1 second for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Auto Armor, lol)
Increases Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Increases Stamina, Health and Magicka Regeneration by 15%.
With an Assassination ability slotted:
Increases Critical Strike rating by 2519 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Increases bonus Critical Strike damage by 10%.
A successful critical hit gives nearby allies Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 629 for 20 seconds.
While using Assassination abilities:
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealth by 10%.
Successful stealth attacks stun for 100% longer.
Some of these passives I would love on any class....
Even if you compare gold to diamonds, it's still gold.
- That is what NB passives are atm, you have many excellent passives and a few decent ones. Compared to the excellent passives the decent ones might not seem so good...
For Templars we currently posses a few silver, many bronze and many dung piles.
- A few decent passives and many passives that are either broken or usless.
This is why threads like these agitate people; because you're asking ZOS to devote time improving something that is already really good, compared to what others have. This comes across as hypocritical and that is why you're getting negative responses.
You're entitled to make all the threads you want and ask for all kind of silly buffs to certain aspects of a class that is already performing really well, but you can't honestly tell any of us you are surprised by getting told you should settle with what you have, because it is a really good package?
ZOS at this given time devoting time to buffing NB passives instead of focusing on for example the Templar class would cause an outroar that noone is interested in. It would simply be unfair.
Yes I am biased, but I am just trying to paint a picture of the truth in the current situation, I hope you can aknowledge it.
PlagueMonk wrote: »How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives.
You're not gonna win this one @Autolycus and @Strider_Roshin . The majority of the players believe the nightblades passives are one of the strongest, if not THE strongest in the game. One or two passives seeming lackluster (in reality, they are not) does not necessitate taking a look at them. Nightblade passives are fine. If it ain't broken, don't try to fix it. Nightblade passives are sufficient, it's a waste of time and energy to debate about them when we have so many other more important issues to talk about.
The WHOLE point of this thread was to retool TWO passives to help out the STAMINA BLADE, a sub-section of the NB class that DOES indeed need help. The Stamblade got some huge big fat nasty nerfs this patch (like STs area being cut in half). They also have a problem with resource management because we are using the same pool to do nearly everything.
I have to also ask, why is it ok for Sorc to report magicka resources in the 40-50k range but Stamblades only have about 30-35k?This thread is truly lolworthy. NB is the strongest and most well-rounded class in the game right now. And those passives you're targeting are awesome.
I mean really, take a look at DK's Elder Dragon passive.
Please, it's no worst that the NB passive Soul Siphoner. Both are pretty wtf abilities.How is it that nobody but me and the OP on this thread, and arguably Gilliam, realizes that there is nothing wrong with brainstorming alternatives. It doesn't matter if some of the NB passives are better than some of the passives in other classes; it's really not relevant to this discussion.
Wait, what about me?! ...../erects the spine of hostility@PlagueMonk I agree with a great deal of what you've said. I would add only to this part:As a magblade I find this passive to be completely useless outside of PvP, and in PvP (where most people run recoveries) it's really unnecessary imho. I'd sooner see the whole passive reworked to something that benefits both magblades and stamblades, preferably something usable in all forms of content.PlagueMonk wrote: »Executioner is good for a mageblade but near worthless to a stamblade. I wouldn't want to remove the magicka component since mageblades like this ability but i would like to tweak it have a stamina component added to it.
Have to admit I'm a bit surprised you don't find this passive even marginally useful. It even helps me out a bit and keeps my measly 13k magicka tank topped off when I dip into it for the recasting of Relentless Focus.
If you don't like it though I would be more than willing to kick it to the curb but that's just my opinion.Strider_Roshin wrote: »Sorcs passives are better:
20% health and stamina, 10% magicka regen
5% cost reduction for stamina and magicka
15% cost reduction for Ultimates
Nightblades have 15% stamina, magicka, and health regen. Oh yes, so OP.
Now everyone who has commented on this thread to whine about your class, please leave. Your comments are useless and you have your own threads to ask for changes.
This thread is for Nightblades who want to brainstorm about how we can change these passives if they feel they need to. Nightblades that disagree with my ideas are more than welcome to comment; as long as your feedback is respectful.
If you are going to list all sorc passives to prove they are stronger you should list all NB passives for an honest comparison. NB have among the best passives in the game (for both magicka and stamina), for this reason most people are going to say no to your requests until the other classes passives get looked over first, especially templar/stam templar/Stam Sorc etc.
Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds.
Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted.
Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted.
Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown.
After drinking a potion you gain 12 Ultimate.
Activating a Shadow ability gives you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Spell Resistance and Armor by 5120 for 2 seconds. This duration is increased by 1 second for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (Auto Armor, lol)
Increases Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted.
Increases Stamina, Health and Magicka Regeneration by 15%.
With an Assassination ability slotted:
Increases Critical Strike rating by 2519 for each Assassination ability slotted.
Increases bonus Critical Strike damage by 10%.
A successful critical hit gives nearby allies Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 629 for 20 seconds.
While using Assassination abilities:
Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealth by 10%.
Successful stealth attacks stun for 100% longer.
Some of these passives I would love on any class....
Well lets just have a more in depth look at all these supposedly uber passives shall we?
- Killing an enemy with an Assassination ability restores 1428 Magicka over 6 seconds (only good for magicka users and even they apparently find it a weak return. Nearly worthless to a Stamblade)
- Increases Max Magicka by 8% while a Siphoning ability is slotted. (as above, decent for magicka users that are trash clearing, near worthless for stamblades)
-Increases the effectiveness of your healing done by 3% for each Siphoning ability slotted. (This is useful to a staff user or sapper. Does absolutely nothing for the DPS NB.)
- Activating a Siphoning ability grants 2 additional Ultimate. This effect has a 4 second cooldown. (decent for oh yes, MAGICKA users again, useless for Stamblades unless they run [and use] power extraction but there are many better skills out there to slot)
After drinking a potion you gain 12 Ultimate. (Lame ability. So I get 12 Ulit once every 45 secs (or even 30 secs). Can you not see just how trivial that is? Its a cute little bonus but nothing you can count on)
Activating a Shadow ability gives you Major Ward and Major Resolve, increasing Spell Resistance and Armor by 5120 for 2 seconds. This duration is increased by 1 second for each piece of Heavy Armor equipped. (A good buff but ONLY for 2 secs.....T W O. Plus you remember that little ability called magelight that is going to make cloak worthless? So I will only get this if i spam Surprise Attack. So it's a good but extremely short buff)
Increases Max Health by 3% for each Shadow ability slotted. (not going to turn my nose up at health but I would rather have stamina)
Increases Stamina, Health and Magicka Regeneration by 15%. (YES a great ability but no more than other classes have)
With an Assassination ability slotted:
- Increases Critical Strike rating by 2519 for each Assassination ability slotted.
- Increases bonus Critical Strike damage by 10%.
Ah yes lots of crit. Want to know the problems with running high crit?
- Shields that negate it.
- Mobs/bosses that have a high crit resist
- Players that run with a high crit resist in PvP
- An entire armor trait devoted to marginalizing this ability.
I run a stam crit spec since it would "seem" to be the way to go but even I know better. My 70% crit is easily cut in half or more because of the above list.
Straight damage with armor penetration > crit.
A successful critical hit gives nearby allies Minor Savagery, increasing Weapon Critical Strike rating by 629 for 20 seconds. While using Assassination abilities:
- Increases Weapon and Spell Damage while invisible or stealth by 10%.
- Successful stealth attacks stun for 100% longer.
I believe we covered this above:
- The damage in stealth is a once trick pony. Once you hit with your initial attack this bonus is done with. You can't restealth during fights against anything but trash mobs (the one mob type you don't need it) because most lieutenant mobs or above totally ignore it.
- In PvP again, the initial attack because most players have no problem (at least in my experience) pulling and keeping you out of stealth (which will become a joke with magelight)
- As for longer stuns........in PvP this gives me a 2 sec hard CC. Sounds good but then the players get a guaranteed 5 sec immunity to it. I would MUCH prefer a soft CC like talons that you can keep irritatingly applying over and over........and over.
- Stuns have ZERO EFFECT on anything but trash mobs in PvE. Any lieutenant mob or better is totally IMMUNE to them. Woohoo? We used to be able to stun lesser boss mobs but Zenimax put an end to that practice LONG ago.
So you can see that while they might look good on paper, it practice, they are not all people think they are. Do NB have some good passives? Well of course we do but I have shown many are highly situational and are still weighted heavily to magicka players atm.
I then jump over and read say the Sorc passives and virtually ALL of them are helpful to the magicka side. Not all that great for the StamSorc but I didn't say they didn't have issues.
PlagueMonk wrote: »Even if you compare gold to diamonds, it's still gold.
- That is what NB passives are atm, you have many excellent passives and a few decent ones. Compared to the excellent passives the decent ones might not seem so good...
For Templars we currently posses a few silver, many bronze and many dung piles.
- A few decent passives and many passives that are either broken or usless.
This is why threads like these agitate people; because you're asking ZOS to devote time improving something that is already really good, compared to what others have. This comes across as hypocritical and that is why you're getting negative responses.
You're entitled to make all the threads you want and ask for all kind of silly buffs to certain aspects of a class that is already performing really well, but you can't honestly tell any of us you are surprised by getting told you should settle with what you have, because it is a really good package?
ZOS at this given time devoting time to buffing NB passives instead of focusing on for example the Templar class would cause an outroar that noone is interested in. It would simply be unfair.
Yes I am biased, but I am just trying to paint a picture of the truth in the current situation, I hope you can aknowledge it.
I really wish people would actually TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE OPs POST instead of being all reactionary to the thread title.
This is not a thread about boosting all NB passives. It's about changing 2 passives that would help the STAMBLADE (a big part of the NB community that does indeed need some help). THAT IS IT.
PlagueMonk wrote: »Even if you compare gold to diamonds, it's still gold.
- That is what NB passives are atm, you have many excellent passives and a few decent ones. Compared to the excellent passives the decent ones might not seem so good...
For Templars we currently posses a few silver, many bronze and many dung piles.
- A few decent passives and many passives that are either broken or usless.
This is why threads like these agitate people; because you're asking ZOS to devote time improving something that is already really good, compared to what others have. This comes across as hypocritical and that is why you're getting negative responses.
You're entitled to make all the threads you want and ask for all kind of silly buffs to certain aspects of a class that is already performing really well, but you can't honestly tell any of us you are surprised by getting told you should settle with what you have, because it is a really good package?
ZOS at this given time devoting time to buffing NB passives instead of focusing on for example the Templar class would cause an outroar that noone is interested in. It would simply be unfair.
Yes I am biased, but I am just trying to paint a picture of the truth in the current situation, I hope you can aknowledge it.
I really wish people would actually TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE OPs POST instead of being all reactionary to the thread title.
This is not a thread about boosting all NB passives. It's about changing 2 passives that would help the STAMBLADE (a big part of the NB community that does indeed need some help). THAT IS IT.
PlagueMonk wrote: »I really wish people would actually TAKE THE TIME TO READ THE OPs POST instead of being all reactionary to the thread title.
This is not a thread about boosting all NB passives. It's about changing 2 passives that would help the STAMBLADE (a big part of the NB community that does indeed need some help). THAT IS IT.
Strider_Roshin wrote: »No offense taken, what I mentioned were just ideas that I came up with; it's not like I'm a developer and my suggestions are going to be implemented. However, would it be fair to say that if adding a passive that'll increase your stamina by 8% is overpowered then magic flood is an overpowered passive?
Get a grip; not everyone who plays a NB is a vampire, cloak spamming, proxy det, spin-to-win noob. It's ridiculous how narrow-minded and ignorant people are simply b/c of an easymode playstyle in pvp.
It's funny how many people on here are still talking about PvP. It's painfully obvious how many people are only actually reading the OP, if they even managed to finish reading that (as it's pretty clear that some people just came in here to QQ b/c of the title).
Blah blah blah stamblades in PvP. Yeah, we get it. The changes that are being suggested in the OP are PvE-oriented guys, and the suggestions that some of us have made (which have been largely undermined with irrelevant bias about how bad templars are) suggests an alternative that not only helps to balance NBs in pvp, but also make some of their currently useless passives in PvE into passives that also provide benefit to the other half of the NB player base. If you guys disagree with the OP or a post, then why are you unable to simply talk about it, or provide an alternative suggestion?
Stop being so narrow-minded. Just because some of us want to see NBs become more useful outside of Cyrodiil (and have made suggestions that don't further skew the power balance in Cyro) doesn't mean you all have to come in here and rage about how jealous of NB passives you are. Get a grip; not everyone who plays a NB is a vampire, cloak spamming, proxy det, spin-to-win noob. It's ridiculous how narrow-minded and ignorant people are simply b/c of an easymode playstyle in pvp.
It's funny how many people on here are still talking about PvP. It's painfully obvious how many people are only actually reading the OP, if they even managed to finish reading that (as it's pretty clear that some people just came in here to QQ b/c of the title).
Blah blah blah stamblades in PvP. Yeah, we get it. The changes that are being suggested in the OP are PvE-oriented guys, and the suggestions that some of us have made (which have been largely undermined with irrelevant bias about how bad templars are) suggests an alternative that not only helps to balance NBs in pvp, but also make some of their currently useless passives in PvE into passives that also provide benefit to the other half of the NB player base. If you guys disagree with the OP or a post, then why are you unable to simply talk about it, or provide an alternative suggestion?
Stop being so narrow-minded. Just because some of us want to see NBs become more useful outside of Cyrodiil (and have made suggestions that don't further skew the power balance in Cyro) doesn't mean you all have to come in here and rage about how jealous of NB passives you are. Get a grip; not everyone who plays a NB is a vampire, cloak spamming, proxy det, spin-to-win noob. It's ridiculous how narrow-minded and ignorant people are simply b/c of an easymode playstyle in pvp.
OP is asking for a 8% stamina increase when having an Assassination skill slotted and for that skill to proc Major Brutality on use. No matter how you twist it, this will increase Stamblade in power even further in PvP, which is totally unacceptable. NBs already passively get Major Ward and Major Resolve from using their highest single target ability; now you also want to award them passive Major Brutality and extra stamina simply for slotting and using a skill, in addition to what that skill does, besides all the other great passive boosts NBs get from slotting their abilities? This is too much...
I aknowledge that Stamblade DPS is an issue atm, but so is Stamsorc and Stamplar DPS. The only stamina build that can somewhat compete with magicka build atm is a StamDK, which is bound to change next patch since magicka users are getting all their primary damage boost from a single champion passive whereas stamina users need two to reach full potential no matter the build. So indeed we are dealing with a disparity in DPS here; but not because NB passives suck for stamina nightblades.
A direct buff for Stamblades cannot be endorsed when you look at the facts, but the discrepancy between stamina and magicka builds in PvE should indeed be looked at. But those changes should come in the form of different champion passives and redesigning skills to accomodate stamina builds inherent damage types. Buffing stamina nightblades is not a proper solution.
As far as Master Assasin goes I feel that is okay enough. You're right that it's most beneficial use is for gank builds, but don't forget people build on that. Taking that and completely changing its function to serve a different playstyle is completely unfair. It either needs to be stronger or weaker in terms of what it's meant to support.
Get a grip; not everyone who plays a NB is a vampire, cloak spamming, proxy det, spin-to-win noob. It's ridiculous how narrow-minded and ignorant people are simply b/c of an easymode playstyle in pvp.
Get a grip yourself. Not everyone who plays a NB and is a vampire, spams cloak, proxy det, spin-to-win is a noob. It's ridiculous how narrow minded and ignorant you are simply b/c of an easymode playstyle in pvp.
Anyway, I'm out of this thread.
Strider_Roshin wrote: »Honestly, nb are probably the strongest. I think they're fine how they are. Other classes needs passives looked at more.
After playing every class I can safely say they're not the strongest but they're by no means weak. I think Nightblades are very well rounded, however they got nerfed in TG. Magicka sorcs however are the most powerful class/play style, and they got a massive buff to their healing so I see no issues with improving some of the underwhelming passives for the Nightblade. And on a side note this thread isn't about other classes, this is about the two passives mentioned for the Nightblade. So please refrain from the "give my class attention instead" comments. There are other threads for that. This one is for Nightblades.
I play stam and magica every class. Vr16 mag nb, vr7 stam Nb.
So I'm talking from plenty of experience. They are far stronger than any other class. 15% regen across the board is possibly the strongest passive in the game. Magica sorc has a complete wasted tree if they don't run pets. Stam sorc has two wasted trees. Templar jus has overall bad passives, stam have a wasted tree. Magica DKs use all trees but have some bad ones (health regen per draconic power ability slotted... lol) and stam DKs have a wasted tree. Stam and magica NBs make use of all trees, stam miss out on like 2 passives.
So no, nb passives absolutely do not need a buff. The two you say are bad are better than a lot of other classes passives the others have.
So what you're saying is that, because other classes have passives that deserve some attention, constructively discussing alternatives is taboo? Do you believe that those of us who make suggestions about one or two passives in one class simply have no knowledge of the other classes?
I ask because I've been defending Templars, DKs and (stam) sorcs for months, offering tons of constructive feedback for improvements on all classes. But the second we want to discuss one passive which is effectively useless in PvE (and forced ito be obsolete with the use of potions or magelight in PvP), suddenly it's about how wrong we are to even bring it up.
Strider_Roshin wrote: »Honestly, nb are probably the strongest. I think they're fine how they are. Other classes needs passives looked at more.
After playing every class I can safely say they're not the strongest but they're by no means weak. I think Nightblades are very well rounded, however they got nerfed in TG. Magicka sorcs however are the most powerful class/play style, and they got a massive buff to their healing so I see no issues with improving some of the underwhelming passives for the Nightblade. And on a side note this thread isn't about other classes, this is about the two passives mentioned for the Nightblade. So please refrain from the "give my class attention instead" comments. There are other threads for that. This one is for Nightblades.
I play stam and magica every class. Vr16 mag nb, vr7 stam Nb.
So I'm talking from plenty of experience. They are far stronger than any other class. 15% regen across the board is possibly the strongest passive in the game. Magica sorc has a complete wasted tree if they don't run pets. Stam sorc has two wasted trees. Templar jus has overall bad passives, stam have a wasted tree. Magica DKs use all trees but have some bad ones (health regen per draconic power ability slotted... lol) and stam DKs have a wasted tree. Stam and magica NBs make use of all trees, stam miss out on like 2 passives.
So no, nb passives absolutely do not need a buff. The two you say are bad are better than a lot of other classes passives the others have.
So what you're saying is that, because other classes have passives that deserve some attention, constructively discussing alternatives is taboo? Do you believe that those of us who make suggestions about one or two passives in one class simply have no knowledge of the other classes?
I ask because I've been defending Templars, DKs and (stam) sorcs for months, offering tons of constructive feedback for improvements on all classes. But the second we want to discuss one passive which is effectively useless in PvE (and forced ito be obsolete with the use of potions or magelight in PvP), suddenly it's about how wrong we are to even bring it up.
Because the two passives you brought up at 10 better than some of the other passives in the game. NBs has no weak passives. None.