Joy_Division wrote: »I think it would have been better had you removed the adjectives and personal opinions from your chart that is trying to give an objective presentation of what each class has and does not have. I spent more time saying to myself "this person is overrating templars" (jabs "huge" self heal? No. Liquid Lightning "high" damage? No. BoL "huge" self heal? What does that make healing ward, gargantuan? RD, "huge" damages below <35%? No. Shards "High initial damage"? No) than anything else.
Hold on--
Liquid Lightning=Is the most powerful Dot in PVE!!
BOL= Not a huge self heal??? (lol)
I really don't understand what you're trying to say You're either ill informed or you misinterpreted the OP
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
These are the collaborative opinions of the guild "M12", not a single streamer or 1 v X'r such as Fengrush, Sypher, or King Richard. We should be focusing on the opinions to the Majority of ESO players and just one field of Gameplay. M12 is a community of 500 "Active" guild members on the AD NA server most of which have been known to top the Leaderboards in both PVE and PVP content over the duration from the game from beta until today. We have been quiet for awhile but it's time for our voice to be heard and answered from ZOS and the community and this is the reason for this post.
Class Abilities
Chart describing imbalances between classes >https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnc7qpewlgwy7pk/ESO balance.docx?dl=0
(Great chart submitted by @GreyBrow )
--Major Resolve needs to be uniform across all classes, specifically the nightblade and the templar which should be able to ingnite the Major resolve buff comparable to the way Dragon Knights and Sorcerer's can.
--Every class should have an intant-cast skill that does immediate damage on cast. Specifically the Sorcerer which has no instant cast abilities that do damage on cast comparable to flame whip, funnel health, surprise attack, or puncturing sweep. Instead Sorcs have to rely on force pulse where the other classes do not.
--Templars need a hard crowd control ability comparable to the other classes. Certain primary class abilities should be uniform across all classes.
Shields
- Every Class should have the ability to play as a DPS, Tank or Healer comparably as envisioned by Zenimax's original game model. Certain classes should have certain advantages and disadvantages when it comes to each role of the game: Tanking, Damage dealing, and healing. And at the same time be able to have similar mitigation, dps, and heals
- Magicka and Stamina users should have separate morphs in class trees this way stamina and magicka users have equal opportunities when creating build and not being penalized for being a magicka or stamina user. Each user should have equal opportunities in thier style of play.
OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."
Players want the ability to crit against shields and proc specific class dps passives (*Burning Light) against shields, if this is the case shields need to be buffed in someway to compensate for the extra damage from the crits and procs, maybe a 75% shield in pvp.
http://gamerelated.info/2015/08/25/elder-scrolls-online-long-standing-bugsissues-that-all-players-should-be-aware-of/
Magicka VS Stamina Imbalances
Light Armor Vs Medium Armor - Besides the differences in actual physical armor the passives each type of armor get are not even comparable. The Agility passive gives 12% more weapon damage where the Concentration passive only gets 4884 Spell Penetraion. The Concentration passive needs to get buffed by offering more Penetration or Spell Damage
Spell Damage Vs Weapon Damage - More or less Weapon damage users have about 1000 more raw damage over magicka builds. This is a huge imbalance especially when it comes to aoe's that have more range
Elemental Ring Vs Steel Tornado - Steel Tornado has a range of 12.5 meters which actually hits for 490 square meters and Elemental Ring has a range of 6 meters which hits at 113 sq meters. The imbalance in range and coupled with the imbalance in raw damage makes magicka users half as effective than stamina users in aoe situations. Besides that Stamina users also get there damaged buffed by the ruffian passive as well as the Duel Weld execute while while both morphs of elemental ring get purged!!
Flawless Dawnbreaker - 8% more raw damage for Stamina users where Magicka users have no equivalent that comes close to this. This skill needs to be changed or give something comparable to magicka users.
Champion Points
Spell Damage Mitigation VS Physical Damage Mitigation - We have 2 perks that mitigate spell damage which are Elemental Defender and Hardy. But when it comes to physical mitigation we only have the armor perks which gives us diminished returns specifically on light armor/magicka users
ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »Run Caltrops with SA and then tell me it's not OP:)
That is exactly how I manage resources on my NB tank, and it works great most of the time. It is best against large groups of mobs, but not very effective during single, drawn out boss fights.
The thing with Caltrops is, is that it shouldn't be proccing SA. ZOS tried to fix this in the IC update by removing 'melee attack' status from Caltrops, but for some reason it still works with SA. ZOS also shot themselves in the foot by removing the damage penalty/toggle, because this opened the skill up for use by DPS builds rather than just tanks. If they removed Caltrops' ability to proc SA, or added back in a smaller damage penalty+returned it to a toggle (or a super long duration buff) it would help with abuse by high powered damage builds (if they did either of these, however, they would also need to go through and rework what NB class abilities proc SA, as they are currently all over the place). Nonetheless, my points still stand.
if magic based classes have the same damage as stamina based classes it'd be much more imbalanced than it is now. Most of the time magic classes have much more ability to heal/stay alive and have multiple damage shields. Can you imagine a magic templar vs a stamina templar with the same damage where one gets healed through his main dps (puncturing sweeps) and can spam breath of life vs a stamplar who has rally/vigor...not that fair
WolfingHour wrote: »ThatNeonZebraAgain wrote: »Run Caltrops with SA and then tell me it's not OP:)
That is exactly how I manage resources on my NB tank, and it works great most of the time. It is best against large groups of mobs, but not very effective during single, drawn out boss fights.
The thing with Caltrops is, is that it shouldn't be proccing SA. ZOS tried to fix this in the IC update by removing 'melee attack' status from Caltrops, but for some reason it still works with SA. ZOS also shot themselves in the foot by removing the damage penalty/toggle, because this opened the skill up for use by DPS builds rather than just tanks. If they removed Caltrops' ability to proc SA, or added back in a smaller damage penalty+returned it to a toggle (or a super long duration buff) it would help with abuse by high powered damage builds (if they did either of these, however, they would also need to go through and rework what NB class abilities proc SA, as they are currently all over the place). Nonetheless, my points still stand.
Since Caltrops used to hit as a melee attack it would get the old flat amount + the % from any proc for the duration. That's what changed.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Fuzzybrick wrote: »No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!
Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.
That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.
TX12001rwb17_ESO wrote: »Wouldnt't Dark exchange and it's morphs classify as the sorcerer's self heal? also shouldn't say one of meteor's morphs give you a +8% Bonus to spell damage.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Fuzzybrick wrote: »No, no, no. @ZOS_GinaBruno please ignore this post. Classes SHOULD NOT BE EQUAL. One class should always be better than another. One class should always do something another can't. If all classes are "balanced" as you say there will be no need for any of my alts. I want to roll different characters because they are DIFFERENT!
Well, feedback is just that. It's feedback, and everyone is entitled to it. When we review feedback, it's coming from many different sources and players, and part of our job (the studio) is to determine what changes and adjustments to make based on many factors - including player feedback.
That said, our general philosophy in regards to classes is not to give everyone the same version of a spell with a different name. We want each class to feel unique and have their own special identity.
I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:
If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?
I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.
@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.
I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:
If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?
I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.
@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.
I'll 1 v 1 a stamina DK any day, absolutely my LEAST feared class when I'm on my Templars (Magic & Stam). Please don't use "everyone here knows it" because not everyone's going to agree with your sentiments. Templars are fine, if you're not familiar playing stamina builds, then its one build to stay away from. I haven't logged onto my DK in over a month because both of my templars out perform it.
GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »You people and your Ambush nerf bandwagon's....
Can we at least wait till mini-stun's on all gap closer's are addressed?
Currently people who spam ambush can mini stun you and you cant do anything. This is not the skill's fault... once gap closer's are fixed you should be fine. The 1 second Immobilize and no minimum distance is what's unique about nightblade's gap closer.
The problem is the mini-stun's on all gap closer's.
Why don't people ask to buff DK chain's?
This is technically the Dk gap closer/chain pull but it's not working correctly and grants the enemy cc immunity. If this was fixed it would be a great skill.
How about Templar's class gap closer?
This is also broken.
How about we fix class gap closer's and mini stun's being broken on all gap closer's before accusing ambush.
So many people asking for class balance and all this garbage when there's a TON of broken skill's and bug's. You can't balance around this until it's fixed.
CaptainObvious wrote: »Please also include distance as a factor in this equation. Otherwise, you will simply extend the imbalance.
If distance damage outweighs or equals close damage, then the system will be broken unless interrupts and vorpal counters become a thing.
I admire the time and effort put into this and there's a lot of good observations and points being made. However some of the conclusions are way off, and display lack of knowledge in certain area. I am on my phone so I will just cover two of my primary concerns:
If you guys are competing for leaderboards in trials surely you understand how much magicka is reigning supreme on DPS meters at the moment compared to stamina, yet you're advocating buffs to magicka?
I think you're underestimating how dire a situation Templars, and especially Stamplars, are in atm when it comes to PvP. Don't see how these proposed class changes will help them much, and can't help to feel your aim here is to homogenize the classes, which would be a bad idea.
@Nifty2g I see you once again advocating Templars are fine and that DKs have been destroyed as a class. Are you completely oblivious to how poor a state Stamplars are in atm, and how Stamina DKs are the kings in 1v1? Overall you're still better off playing a DK whether you want to; DPS, 1v1, 1vX or tank. The only job a Templar excels in compared to the DK is healing, and that is obviously as magicka. Let me make a quick comparison herr so we don't confuse apples and oranges.
1v1: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar > Mag DK
1vX: Stam DK > Mag Templar > Mag DK > Stam Templar
DPS: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Tank: Mag DK > Stam DK > Mag Templar > Stam Templar
Healing: Mag Templar > Mag DK
This is how the two classes compare in performance at the moment. This is the generally accepted truth withing the PvE and PvP communities at the moment.
How in all of Tamriel does this lead you to conclude that Templars are mostly fine and that DKs are ruined?
I think you need to reevalute your thought process along with the people in this thread who agreed with you.
Sorry for the direct approach but I am reading a lot of your misinformation on threads around on these forums in regards to how *** DKs are and how Templars are fine, neither of them obviously are fine at the moment compared to NBs and Sorcs, but you're still better off atm if you rolled a DK unless you're planning on going full healbot mode. That statement is irrefutably true, and everyone here knows it.
I'll 1 v 1 a stamina DK any day, absolutely my LEAST feared class when I'm on my Templars (Magic & Stam). Please don't use "everyone here knows it" because not everyone's going to agree with your sentiments. Templars are fine, if you're not familiar playing stamina builds, then its one build to stay away from. I haven't logged onto my DK in over a month because both of my templars out perform it.
Please. I have been maining a single class since launch, and that is my Templar. I am in Hodor. Don't condescend me.
Ask around in ANY dueling guild or any high profile streamer who knows what he is talking about. Stamins DKs are THE 1v1 build at the moment. I am not going to question whether you can take down a Stamina DK, but it must not have been in a dueling session and he must not have been very good. Your LEAST feared class? So now you're also saying implicit that Mag DKs are better than Stam DKs? The rankings I put up are not my own opinion, they are not up for debate. They are the truth. Everyone who is something in this community or has deeper knowledge OR atleast talks with other people from time to time within the top of PvE and PvP will know that what I stated is the general concensus. Now if you're going to go ahead and claim that you know better than the best duelers and raiding guilds from the EU megaserver then that is your business, but that is a very bold statement.
Band Camp statements: To state "But this one time I saw X doing X... so that justifies X" Refers to the Band camp statement.
Coined by Maxwell
@ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_GinaBruno
These are the collaborative opinions of the guild "M12", not a single streamer or 1 v X'r such as Fengrush, Sypher, or King Richard. We should be focusing on the opinions to the Majority of ESO players and just one field of Gameplay. M12 is a community of 500 "Active" guild members on the AD NA server most of which have been known to top the Leaderboards in both PVE and PVP content over the duration from the game from beta until today. We have been quiet for awhile but it's time for our voice to be heard and answered from ZOS and the community and this is the reason for this post.
OverFlow Damage-"Damage shields in ESO absorb unmitigated damage (don't factor in armor, spell resist, etc). If a player has 1k damage left on their shield, but is facing an incoming attack dealing 10k unmitigated damage, the shield will absorb that 1k while the remaining 9k hits the player directly without factoring in their armor, spell resist, etc. This is not something players can affect (e.g. by relogging) but is how damage shields work in the game. Best way around is to spam your damage shields so they are always refreshed. For the same reason, the damage shield glyphs on weapons are terrible choices because it will likely cause you to take more damage rather than less since the shield is so small virtually any incoming attack will go through mostly unmitigated."