Ourorboros wrote: »How's this for feedback?:
@Faulgor has been providing some thought-provoking alternative views to the v15-16 mat situation. I've been in the "this is a grind" camp. Faulgor not only has posted some hopeful harvesting results, but also some interesting perspectives on grinding in this and other Elder Scroll games.
Since I choose not to play on PTS, I rely on feedback from those who do. It seems like there is a big RNG element to harvesting the new mats (not too surprising considering how much RNG affects other parts of the game), so harvesting results vary from horrible to tolerable.
I've invested a lot of time in the game, and I am not going to stop playing without finding out myself if the availability, or lack thereof, of new mats sucks all the fun out of the game. Orsinium is not the DLC that keeps me playing. I'm looking for Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. I'll grind out new mats for new gear until they get here. It will keep me occupied while I wait for content I really want.
Ok, so we've found someone who has had a vastly more successful harvesting experience than the majority. I've attempted to have a look at what may have contributed to this in the following:
http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/2335691/#Comment_2335691
If everyone had this same experience it would be a lot better indeed. Have a think about which factors may have influenced your harvesting experience.There may be hope yet.
MSchroeder wrote: »-snip--snip-
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
Let me ask a few things of players who are unhappy with the current availability of VR15+ materials:
Why do you want them?
What is giving you the impression that you need them?
What is it you actually want to do "for fun" if you don't consider improving your gear fun?
MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
nimander99 wrote: »MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
What does penultimate and ultimate materials mean... I mean, I know what the words mean, but what does it mean for eso (I've never heard this term before)?
nimander99 wrote: »MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
What does penultimate and ultimate materials mean... I mean, I know what the words mean, but what does it mean for eso (I've never heard this term before)?
MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
-snip-
MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
1. There will be no VR17/18.This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.
MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
Thank you for listening to the community's feedback.MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
pelennor_fields wrote: »MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
ZOS post to this thread -http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2342808#Comment_2342808
If they actually make the change then that will be a significant step forward. Changes to both nodes and writs? Nice.
As it seems that the EU character copy will happen soon, I look forward to seeing what the changes look like myself.
Agree, definitely a step in the right direction.Still think all nodes in Orsinium should drop highest materials since we can farm void stuff in 3 other zones. ( They could convert the void nodes into V15/V16 nodes).
The thing is, I think ZOS have shot themselves in the foot by making mats so rare in IC. If they want to address all this community feedback about crafting turning into grinding, they would probably need to increase drops in IC.
A little bit of work/time consuming /monotonous activities is bearable (already in the form of latest motifs to appear in cash store/the fact that you need 10× as many mats for V16), knowing that your goal of creating armour is likely to happen in a month. However, as soon as all of crafting is turned into that (multiple layers of time consuming/monotonous/activities), and the goal isn't achievable in under a year it turns to "grind".
Isn't having the latest motifs so hard to obtain, and having V16 take 10× more items considered as enough "work" for crafters to be able to get armour? Why do they have to add additional layers of work to crafting so that the entire experience becomes an overall grind?
Just boggles the mind.All these extra layers of RNG/time consuming frustration doesn't make me feel rewarded when I'm finally able to craft something...this psychology may work on some people..but, from the feedback in these threads, it also doesn't work on the majority of crafters either.
Also ZOS- If V15/V16 raw materials appear in crown store, I'll consider cancelling sub and uninstalling.
Post this into the official PTS thread too! If you haven't already..
BalticBlues wrote: »1. There will be no VR17/18.This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)
2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.
People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.
BalticBlues wrote: »1. There will be no VR17/18.This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)
2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.
People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.
1. We shall hope so, but I'm not too optimistic anymore. They said Vet ranks will be removed some time after Orsinium releases, but that merely means it won't happen before (which it didn't). Even if they get removed, we don't know how gear progression will work then, as they haven't talked about that at all so far. I'm just afraid the implementation of rare new materials in one update, followed by making them abundant in the next update is setting a precedent where we have to churn through a new tier of materials every 6 months, with or without veteran ranks.
2. I thought it was trivial and boring. I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC, mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable. I just don't want to see that lost, and as the OP seems to indicate, VR15+ materials are indeed intended to still be rare in comparison.
Honestly, how many V15/V16 parts did you actually craft?I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC,
mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable.
pelennor_fields wrote: »BalticBlues wrote: »1. There will be no VR17/18.This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)
2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.
People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.
1. We shall hope so, but I'm not too optimistic anymore. They said Vet ranks will be removed some time after Orsinium releases, but that merely means it won't happen before (which it didn't). Even if they get removed, we don't know how gear progression will work then, as they haven't talked about that at all so far. I'm just afraid the implementation of rare new materials in one update, followed by making them abundant in the next update is setting a precedent where we have to churn through a new tier of materials every 6 months, with or without veteran ranks.
2. I thought it was trivial and boring. I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC, mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable. I just don't want to see that lost, and as the OP seems to indicate, VR15+ materials are indeed intended to still be rare in comparison.
What seems to me to be trivial and boring is grinding the same 5 mobs in the IC for hours and hours. Guessing about 20 hours foe each armor piece (very optimistic numbers there)... Meaning spending somewhere around 140-150 hours GRINDING my eyeballs out for mats. I don't exactly understand how this is rewarding or special for crafters. It seems to favor people who can dedicate hours on end to grinding the same mobs in the same places ad infinitum. Also i do not equate new gear as progression and definitely do not equate a grind that feels like I should be getting paid for it as new content.
"We understand that players do not want to grind. Now, go grind."
BalticBlues wrote: »Honestly, how many V15/V16 parts did you actually craft?I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC,
mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable.
Crafters want to actually craft pieces. Crafting to them means making things.
Making things to see how things differ and try different things out.
This is not possible anymore with the rarity of V15+ mats.
You probably rather want to be a collector - of precious materials as Perfect Roe or Nirn.
People like you like grinding for hours. Like grinding hundreds of fish to collect the one roe.
For you, ZOS already introduced precious material as the glass style books.
Who likes grinding Daedra for hours now can collect these books. This is your reward.
BalticBlues wrote: »However, most people did not buy ESO for the grinding experience.
They have bought ESO for the gameplay experience.
In good games, crafting does not mean 99% grinding.
In good games, gameplay also does not mean 99% grinding.
BalticBlues wrote: »Before IC, we had a nice balance of things to do in ESO.
If would be very nice if this balance would be restored with Orsinium.
Pangnirtung wrote: »MSchroeder wrote: »Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:
- Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
- Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.
When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.
Why mess with what was already a good thing. A year and a half and NOW there are changes to how mats are found?
Why? It makes no sense whatsoever. Getting materials has been fine since beta and now the change and a change which people are almost universally NOT happy with? Why I ask. Why?
You only fed your horse over a year? No Cyrodiil PVP, no trials PVE?After IC, we finally have things to do in ESO.
I've been feeding my horses for almost a year with nothing to do
Building just one weapon in several weeks you hardly can call "crafting" anymore.I have one VR16 weapon, nothing else.
If even you as a pro grinder cannot grind enough of what you need,I don't have the styles I want yet
I don't see why they would even put the old nodes to the new zone. What am I supposed to do with those mats when the writs need the new mats.
while I am exploring and taking my time if I come across a node I will harvest it and all the nearby ones I can get too. I will not dedicate myself to just farming for mats on end. Most other casual players don't dedicate themselves to farming mats on end, they get what they need and they move on to enjoy the rest of the game.
<snip>
You might say Gold is easy to get in this game!! Well, maybe for you it is, but not for everyone.
-snip-
Thank you for answering at such length.
So, as I understand, you want VR15+ materials to
1) Craft for guild mates for free
2) Make armor for yourself and guildmates so you can do all guild activities
To point 1, I'll have to say that my experience is that I rarely craft for guildmates, although I have most profefssions maxed on at least one character. Why? Because so do they. It's not a state I'm very happy with, as I would like to distinguish myself as a crafter, but there is not a lot of room for that outside of styles. With the rarity of VR15+ materials and the new motifs, I at least occasionally have to trade with other people.
So I'm happy for you that you can socialize through crafting, but my experience has been entirely different. Even if I do, I don't hand out materials for free except for close friends, simply because I can't afford to (no, Gold is not easy for me to come by). If you get free VR16 gear from your guild, it actually sounds to me like you both get to socialize and get to wear the new endgame gear with the current system, whereas I get nothing. So why are you upset and I am not?
To point 2, and this was probably what I was most interested in, what are these guild activites that require VR16 gear? The only piece of VR16 gear I own is a bow for my solo character, and I have done nearly everything in the game that is to do easily with VR14 blue or purple gear. There is really no pressing matter that would force you into anything above VR14. What is this supposedly challenging content that requires VR16?
And even if it is there, I'm not sure I agree that everyone should get to do it. There has been a considerable amount of people asking for challenging and rewarding content, and I don't think it would be fair to them either if every reward or accomplishment becomes trivial again.
I don't want to spoil your playstyle for you. In fact, I play similarly from time to time, and I'm looking forward to play through Orsinium in this manner. Malacath knows I just ride around through Wrothgar on the PTS, admiring the scenery and exploring the mountaints (it is really a fantastic zone, by far my favourite). Gathering crafting nodes has become a much more enjoyable activity there as well.
But if everything was a VR15 node, I wouldn't even bother to get off my horse anymore, because the reward is trivial and I know I can just get another one around the corner if I need one.
...
...
Well, that settles that. This will make VR15+ materials positively abundant.
This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear".
VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.
Be careful what you wish for, sometimes you might get it.
After IC, we finally have things to do in ESO.
I've been feeding my horses for almost a year with nothing to do
When you finally get a full set, you will then understand how important the actual boost to your stats are and how they affect your game and what you can do.I have one VR16 weapon, nothing else.
It is good that you have something to work towards in the game, but the majority of players who like to craft and upgrade their gear by Crafting should not be held back because you like the grind.I don't have the styles I want yet