Official Feedback Thread for Crafting Node Scaling

angelyn

Ourorboros wrote: »

How's this for feedback?:
@Faulgor has been providing some thought-provoking alternative views to the v15-16 mat situation. I've been in the "this is a grind" camp. Faulgor not only has posted some hopeful harvesting results, but also some interesting perspectives on grinding in this and other Elder Scroll games.

Since I choose not to play on PTS, I rely on feedback from those who do. It seems like there is a big RNG element to harvesting the new mats (not too surprising considering how much RNG affects other parts of the game), so harvesting results vary from horrible to tolerable.

I've invested a lot of time in the game, and I am not going to stop playing without finding out myself if the availability, or lack thereof, of new mats sucks all the fun out of the game. Orsinium is not the DLC that keeps me playing. I'm looking for Dark Brotherhood and Thieves Guild. I'll grind out new mats for new gear until they get here. It will keep me occupied while I wait for content I really want.

I have certainly taken the different experiences into consideration . What I will say is that the majority of posts have not had very successful/enjoyable time of it. Currently the positive/successful ones are the exception. You may be right in that it could be down to RNG, however I did think of some other factors, which you can see by clicking the link below.

angelyn wrote: »

Ok, so we've found someone who has had a vastly more successful harvesting experience than the majority. I've attempted to have a look at what may have contributed to this in the following:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en-GB/discussion/comment/2335691/#Comment_2335691

If everyone had this same experience it would be a lot better indeed. Have a think about which factors may have influenced your harvesting experience.There may be hope yet.

Hopefully ZOS can ensure that everyone is able to obtain materials successfully and still be able to enjoy the game .

Tallowby

Crafting material nodes scaling - Great

Finally a change that benefits crafters. Even if not for use but resale a good change for crafting over all.

This should be implemented for all DLC additions from Craglorn on up IMHO.

I do agree that with this change and the reduced drop rate may be too rare and would prefer the chance to increase a bit more than is presently seen.

helediron

More testing of resource nodes:

1. Different skill points:
Entered an area with maxed crafter. There were six nodes of which one was ruby ash. Switched to another toon which had 6/10 in crafting. It saw all nodes as birch/calcinium. Both nightwood nodes and ruby ash nodes were birch. Harvested the birch-nightwood node. Returned back to maxed toon. Ruby ash was still there and the harvested node was not.

So, only maxed crafters can see vr15+ nodes. Others see all nodes as their level. I think when a nodes spawn, some of them get a "rubby" flag which turns them to vr15+ nodes. Nodes stay in the area regardless of characters. Toons don't have "private" nodes but lower level crafters just see them differently. BTW: when i initially harvested the area few days earlier, HarvestMap reports all nodes an nightwood, never as ruby ash.

I think this is all okay, nothing wrong.

2. Two players
I used maxed crafter to clear another area out of every node except two ruby ashes. Logged in with another account and scanned the area. It had only those two ashes.

Again this shows that nodes are randomized to the area, not players. This rises a concern of selective harvesting. If one player scans whole area and only picks vr15+ mats, i believe the area has just lower tier mats left and other players won't get any top tier mats.

3. Spawning
Cleared an area west of Honor's Rest out of all nodes. It is enclosed area having 20 crafting resource nodes. Logged out.
- Waited 15mins and logged in with second account. No nodes had spawn.
- Half hour - none. O_o
- Recruited third account to run through the area. The toon was with no crafting skill.
- Now an hour has passed. Logged with second account to scan area - two nodes.
- Hour and quarter logged with first account which has HarvestMap and checked each single node - two nodes still.
- Hour and half: got kicked out of server and couldn't login back.

Hmm, two nodes out of twenty spawn after an hour, and three different accounts have visited the area. Is this okay? I don't believe any other entered the area. Between checks i kept watch at high point and saw nobody. The area is closed with one entry (has second, but unlikely, . at backside of the area under the great bridg.e). I also left one nightwood as a bait very close to entrance and checked it was there all the time.

- two hours - three nodes, kicked out again. Stopped testing.

ZOS_MSchroeder

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

lonewolf26

As the next patch will likely coincide with an EU character copy, is it possible to include a pack of raw or refined mats with the template characters?

Elephant42

[

MSchroeder wrote: »

-snip-

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.

-snip-

Please make it a _significant_ increase.

Oh and can you please include V15/16 templates as well so that people like me (with no max lvl chars) can fully test the new system.

Nebthet78

Faulgor wrote: »

Let me ask a few things of players who are unhappy with the current availability of VR15+ materials:
Why do you want them?
What is giving you the impression that you need them?
What is it you actually want to do "for fun" if you don't consider improving your gear fun?

Since you asked here, I wanted to take the time to answer this series of questions. Be warned, you are about to get to know me as a player and I am long winded.

Why do I want them? (I am assuming more nodes):

I consider myself a casual gamer, even though I dedicate 6hrs or so play time almost every day. I've even had a couple 16hr play sessions a few times when I couldn't sleep. Despite this, I do not rush through content. I take my time. I explore, I enjoy the view. In the few times I have found myself grinding for a particular armor set drop, I have had other players auto invite themselves to grind with me so they get more XP, only to drop from the group because I wasn't fast enough for them. I refuse to rush through things. I preferred instead to draw out the battles a little and learn the enemy mechanics. It helped me solo a lot of World Bosses and Public Dungeons.

How does this tie in with Crafting nodes? Well, while I am exploring and taking my time if I come across a node I will harvest it and all the nearby ones I can get too. I will not dedicate myself to just farming for mats on end. Most other casual players don't dedicate themselves to farming mats on end, they get what they need and they move on to enjoy the rest of the game. Only a few players do dedicate themselves to farming (like Nirncrux) so they can rush to put those in the Guild Stores as fast as possible to get an insane price for them.

I want to be able to play the game as I normally do as a casual player and still be able to gain mats at a reasonable rate. Imperial City was a soul killer. Three weeks of never ending grinding to get enough mats to upgrade my armor and weapons for 1 character was utterly Soul Crushing. I hate IC because of it. I have the PVP in IC because of it. I DON'T ever want to see that type of grind for basic crafting materials EVER AGAIN!! That type of mechanic make people quit the game. I won't even go into IC on Guild PVP nights any more. If it is not Cyro PVP then I will not participate in it.

Crafting is an integral part of this game for me. It is how I socialize with other players and a huge part of what I do for my guild. I have stated in another thread, the guild I am in has a policy that for 1 character, we will make free crafted armor upgrades for those players who may not be able to afford it or have the time to get the mats or the skill to do it themselves. This ensures that none of our players are left behind. It ensures that they can participate in all aspects of Guild activity should they want to.

I want the other members of the Guild I am in to be able to participate in content. They may not be the best players, or like me, prefer to play unconventional builds, but they all deserve the opportunity to be able to participate and have fun. For a few of them, the extra armor rating and damage (especially from the increase in stats due to glyphs) the V16 armor gives improves their chances significantly.

At the current rate of mat acquisition, it is going to take a very long time to gain enough mats for all of my characters. It means that I am going to have to find the mats and horde them until I use them, even if that is another six months or a year down the road for a particular character, because they are a such a pain in the arse to be able to find the amount you are required to use to craft armor. It means that I cannot help my Guildmates who might need 50 or even a stack of 200 mats to be able to craft their new armor because I have to keep all that I have for myself for later, because I don't want to have to dedicate another week of doing nothing but grinding nodes to make up for them.

I and many others in the Guild are also not willing, nor do we have enough gold on us to be able to buy all the mats we have needed.
At it's peak, Ancestor Silk and Rubedite was going for 650g per piece in Guild stores. That is 32.5k gold for a stack of 50 and 130k for a full stack of 200. That is 650k to gain 1000 mats required to make 1 full set of armor (Not including a second set of weapons to swap).
That amount of gold for BASIC crafting materials is Frigging Crazy!!! Most casual players down have any where near that much gold, and if they have been running IC sewers, they are most likely beginning to run a deficit on gold because of the high cost of armor repair. Unless, like me they got fedup with it and just ran in a group and stopped repairing armor.

You might say Gold is easy to get in this game!! Well, maybe for you it is, but not for everyone. A lot of players don't want to be forced into particular activities they do not enjoy just to be able to upgrade armor. I know I sure don't. That includes activities for gaining gold. I have a feeling that most people who say that gold is easy to come buy in these games are players whom have gotten into the top trading guilds in Rawl and Craglorn and are making the gold hand over fist. There are a lot of casual players not willing to deal with the rules in guilds such as those just to sell something.

For players who play less than I do, coming up with that much gold is never going to be a reality. They can barely come up with 100k to do all they need to.

I have no issue with their being a few grinds in this game, and special dropped armor sets and special achievements are the things that are perfect for grinding. But when it comes to basic crafting mats, no.. a player should not have to grind for these. ZOS needs to keep Crafting standardized across all zones. This includes what nodes and how many are found and how many mats are required for crafting.

So what do I do for fun? As a mainly solo player, I do quests. I play an alt. I do small quick crafting runs (not hours worth) so I may be able to do a writ on one of my other characters. I make armor for friends and guild mates for free. I make potions for friends and guild mates, sometimes for free, sometimes not depending on amount. I do group dungeons with guild mates, and sometimes a trial, or Cyro pvp. Though I prefer solo questing!! and sometimes, just sometimes, I get on my horse and just ride around looking at the scenery or fish because I don't want to do anything else. That's what I prefer to do for fun, instead of just grinding mats to craft armor hours on end.

AND I DON'T WANT TO RUSH THROUGH ANY OF IT!

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

Thank you, I will definitely be sure to check it out and comment.

nimander99

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

What does penultimate and ultimate materials mean... I mean, I know what the words mean, but what does it mean for eso (I've never heard this term before)?

code65536

nimander99 wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

What does penultimate and ultimate materials mean... I mean, I know what the words mean, but what does it mean for eso (I've never heard this term before)?

ultimate: final; i.e., ruby ash, rubedite, etc.
penultimate: right before the final; i.e., voidsteel, etc.

Enodoc

nimander99 wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

What does penultimate and ultimate materials mean... I mean, I know what the words mean, but what does it mean for eso (I've never heard this term before)?

I assume it means writs will use VR14 mats (penultimate) in addition to VR16 mats (ultimate).

Pangnirtung

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

Why mess with what was already a good thing. A year and a half and NOW there are changes to how mats are found?

Why? It makes no sense whatsoever. Getting materials has been fine since beta and now the change and a change which people are almost universally NOT happy with? Why I ask. Why?

nimander99

ty @code65536 and @Enodoc

Faulgor

Nebthet78 wrote: »

-snip-

Thank you for answering at such length.

So, as I understand, you want VR15+ materials to
1) Craft for guild mates for free
2) Make armor for yourself and guildmates so you can do all guild activities

To point 1, I'll have to say that my experience is that I rarely craft for guildmates, although I have most profefssions maxed on at least one character. Why? Because so do they. It's not a state I'm very happy with, as I would like to distinguish myself as a crafter, but there is not a lot of room for that outside of styles. With the rarity of VR15+ materials and the new motifs, I at least occasionally have to trade with other people.
So I'm happy for you that you can socialize through crafting, but my experience has been entirely different. Even if I do, I don't hand out materials for free except for close friends, simply because I can't afford to (no, Gold is not easy for me to come by). If you get free VR16 gear from your guild, it actually sounds to me like you both get to socialize and get to wear the new endgame gear with the current system, whereas I get nothing. So why are you upset and I am not?

To point 2, and this was probably what I was most interested in, what are these guild activites that require VR16 gear? The only piece of VR16 gear I own is a bow for my solo character, and I have done nearly everything in the game that is to do easily with VR14 blue or purple gear. There is really no pressing matter that would force you into anything above VR14. What is this supposedly challenging content that requires VR16?
And even if it is there, I'm not sure I agree that everyone should get to do it. There has been a considerable amount of people asking for challenging and rewarding content, and I don't think it would be fair to them either if every reward or accomplishment becomes trivial again.

I don't want to spoil your playstyle for you. In fact, I play similarly from time to time, and I'm looking forward to play through Orsinium in this manner. Malacath knows I just ride around through Wrothgar on the PTS, admiring the scenery and exploring the mountaints (it is really a fantastic zone, by far my favourite). Gathering crafting nodes has become a much more enjoyable activity there as well.
But if everything was a VR15 node, I wouldn't even bother to get off my horse anymore, because the reward is trivial and I know I can just get another one around the corner if I need one.

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

Well, that settles that. This will make VR15+ materials positively abundant.
This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear".
VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

Be careful what you wish for, sometimes you might get it.

BalticBlues

Faulgor wrote: »

This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

1. There will be no VR17/18.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)

2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.

People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.

Marrtha

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

Given dog a bone.

angelyn

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

Thank you for listening to the community's feedback. This is a good starting step, in the direction of ensuring that people can still craft, without it feeling like a second job for the majority of players, who thought the previous crafting system was enjoyable.

I'm still not sure why Orsinium nodes should drop penultimate materials at all, since you can farm those in 3 other zones at least ( I'm not saying that the penultimate ones should be removed, I think they should be converted into ultimate nodes)

Marrtha

I was actually hoping they would make it so it simply scales, are you vet15-16 or have maxed crafting (whatever ZOS would think is best)? No problem! You will be getting vet15-16 raw materials! If you need nightwood for a rank 14 buddy, go to Craglorn or some other zone vet14 zone! Problem solved..

angelyn

As requested by @Marrtha

Marrtha wrote: »

angelyn wrote: »

Iluvrien wrote: »

pelennor_fields wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

ZOS post to this thread -http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/2342808#Comment_2342808

If they actually make the change then that will be a significant step forward. Changes to both nodes and writs? Nice.

As it seems that the EU character copy will happen soon, I look forward to seeing what the changes look like myself.

Agree, definitely a step in the right direction. Still think all nodes in Orsinium should drop highest materials since we can farm void stuff in 3 other zones. ( They could convert the void nodes into V15/V16 nodes).

The thing is, I think ZOS have shot themselves in the foot by making mats so rare in IC. If they want to address all this community feedback about crafting turning into grinding, they would probably need to increase drops in IC.

A little bit of work/time consuming /monotonous activities is bearable (already in the form of latest motifs to appear in cash store/the fact that you need 10× as many mats for V16), knowing that your goal of creating armour is likely to happen in a month. However, as soon as all of crafting is turned into that (multiple layers of time consuming/monotonous/activities), and the goal isn't achievable in under a year it turns to "grind".

Isn't having the latest motifs so hard to obtain, and having V16 take 10× more items considered as enough "work" for crafters to be able to get armour? Why do they have to add additional layers of work to crafting so that the entire experience becomes an overall grind?

Just boggles the mind. All these extra layers of RNG/time consuming frustration doesn't make me feel rewarded when I'm finally able to craft something...this psychology may work on some people..but, from the feedback in these threads, it also doesn't work on the majority of crafters either.

Also ZOS- If V15/V16 raw materials appear in crown store, I'll consider cancelling sub and uninstalling.

Post this into the official PTS thread too! If you haven't already..

Faulgor

BalticBlues wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

1. There will be no VR17/18.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)

2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.

People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.

1. We shall hope so, but I'm not too optimistic anymore. They said Vet ranks will be removed some time after Orsinium releases, but that merely means it won't happen before (which it didn't). Even if they get removed, we don't know how gear progression will work then, as they haven't talked about that at all so far. I'm just afraid the implementation of rare new materials in one update, followed by making them abundant in the next update is setting a precedent where we have to churn through a new tier of materials every 6 months, with or without veteran ranks.

2. I thought it was trivial and boring. I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC, mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable. I just don't want to see that lost, and as the OP seems to indicate, VR15+ materials are indeed intended to still be rare in comparison.

pelennor_fields

Faulgor wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

1. There will be no VR17/18.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)

2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.

People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.

1. We shall hope so, but I'm not too optimistic anymore. They said Vet ranks will be removed some time after Orsinium releases, but that merely means it won't happen before (which it didn't). Even if they get removed, we don't know how gear progression will work then, as they haven't talked about that at all so far. I'm just afraid the implementation of rare new materials in one update, followed by making them abundant in the next update is setting a precedent where we have to churn through a new tier of materials every 6 months, with or without veteran ranks.

2. I thought it was trivial and boring. I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC, mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable. I just don't want to see that lost, and as the OP seems to indicate, VR15+ materials are indeed intended to still be rare in comparison.

What seems to me to be trivial and boring is grinding the same 5 mobs in the IC for hours and hours. Guessing about 20 hours foe each armor piece (very optimistic numbers there)... Meaning spending somewhere around 140-150 hours GRINDING my eyeballs out for mats. I don't exactly understand how this is rewarding or special for crafters. It seems to favor people who can dedicate hours on end to grinding the same mobs in the same places ad infinitum. Also i do not equate new gear as progression and definitely do not equate a grind that feels like I should be getting paid for it as new content.

"We understand that players do not want to grind. Now, go grind."

BalticBlues

Faulgor wrote: »

I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC,
mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable.

Honestly, how many V15/V16 parts did you actually craft?

Crafters want to actually craft pieces. Crafting to them means making things.
Making things to see how things differ and try different things out.
This is not possible anymore with the rarity of V15+ mats.

You probably rather want to be a collector - of precious materials as Perfect Roe or Nirn.
People like you like grinding for hours. Like grinding hundreds of fish to collect the one roe.
For you, ZOS already introduced precious material as the glass style books.
Who likes grinding Daedra for hours now can collect these books. This is your reward.

However, most people did not buy ESO for the grinding experience.
They have bought ESO for the gameplay experience.
In good games, crafting does not mean 99% grinding.
In good games, gameplay also does not mean 99% grinding.

Before IC, we had a nice balance of things to do in ESO.
If would be very nice if this balance would be restored with Orsinium.

Faulgor

pelennor_fields wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

BalticBlues wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear". VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

1. There will be no VR17/18.
This was planned for Orisinium but has been dropped.
VRs will be removed after Orisinium. (At least this is what they've said.)

2. Nothing was wrong with crafting when V14 was the maximum.
People knew where to look for material and crafting was fun.
With IC, they implemented new grinding/crafting rules for V15+ mats.
Perhaps this was meant as a "reward"? In reality, it meant punishment for crafters.

People should not be punished for playing a game meant to be fun.
There still is enough punishment because of the mat requirements for crafting V16 gear.
V16 mats at least should be accessible as the other mats if so incredibly much of it is required.

1. We shall hope so, but I'm not too optimistic anymore. They said Vet ranks will be removed some time after Orsinium releases, but that merely means it won't happen before (which it didn't). Even if they get removed, we don't know how gear progression will work then, as they haven't talked about that at all so far. I'm just afraid the implementation of rare new materials in one update, followed by making them abundant in the next update is setting a precedent where we have to churn through a new tier of materials every 6 months, with or without veteran ranks.

2. I thought it was trivial and boring. I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC, mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable. I just don't want to see that lost, and as the OP seems to indicate, VR15+ materials are indeed intended to still be rare in comparison.

What seems to me to be trivial and boring is grinding the same 5 mobs in the IC for hours and hours. Guessing about 20 hours foe each armor piece (very optimistic numbers there)... Meaning spending somewhere around 140-150 hours GRINDING my eyeballs out for mats. I don't exactly understand how this is rewarding or special for crafters. It seems to favor people who can dedicate hours on end to grinding the same mobs in the same places ad infinitum. Also i do not equate new gear as progression and definitely do not equate a grind that feels like I should be getting paid for it as new content.

"We understand that players do not want to grind. Now, go grind."

I just like the combat. It's fun. And with IC it became rewarding where it previously wasn't.
And this grinding business is really important to you, I guess?

BalticBlues wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

I have enjoyed crafting a lot more since IC,
mainly because looted as well as crafted items have become more valuable.

Honestly, how many V15/V16 parts did you actually craft?

Crafters want to actually craft pieces. Crafting to them means making things.
Making things to see how things differ and try different things out.
This is not possible anymore with the rarity of V15+ mats.

You probably rather want to be a collector - of precious materials as Perfect Roe or Nirn.
People like you like grinding for hours. Like grinding hundreds of fish to collect the one roe.
For you, ZOS already introduced precious material as the glass style books.
Who likes grinding Daedra for hours now can collect these books. This is your reward.

I said this before, but I have one VR16 weapon, nothing else.
Not because I don't have the materials for more. I do, but I don't have the styles I want yet, or I'm waiting for the new craftable sets coming with Orsinium.
However, crafting in ESO is not just about making things. It's also about refining, research and especially deconstruction. When you got all crafting skills maxed out, all traits researched and access to all crafting stations, the only parts still left for actual gameplay are refining and deconstruction for acquisition of materials. And yes, I like those parts. That doesn't make me any less of a crafter.
What I find strange is that you insist it's impossible to try different sets with the new system, when I do that all the time. VR14 still works perfectly fine, nobody took that away from us.

BalticBlues wrote: »

However, most people did not buy ESO for the grinding experience.
They have bought ESO for the gameplay experience.
In good games, crafting does not mean 99% grinding.
In good games, gameplay also does not mean 99% grinding.

You're right. In good games, crafting is learning, progressing, collecting, refining, combining, creating, deconstructing, trading, specializing. I'd say ESO is on a good track.

BalticBlues wrote: »

Before IC, we had a nice balance of things to do in ESO.
If would be very nice if this balance would be restored with Orsinium.

After IC, we finally have things to do in ESO.
I've been feeding my horses for almost a year with nothing to do, and IC finally made most activities worthwhile.

And I will leave it at that. I'm just repeating myself, and until the devs have made the announced adjustments, there is no point in further testing.
GRINDING the forums has been really tiresome.

mr_wazzabi

Pangnirtung wrote: »

MSchroeder wrote: »

Rest assured we’ve heard the complaints! We have a change coming in for 2.2.2 (that is, next PTS) that will do the following:

• Increase the number of top-tier material nodes you see in battle-leveled areas.
• Change Writs to use the penultimate materials as well as the ultimate materials.

When this reaches PTS, we’d like you all to take a fresh look at the nodes and writs, and give us your feedback again.

Why mess with what was already a good thing. A year and a half and NOW there are changes to how mats are found?

Why? It makes no sense whatsoever. Getting materials has been fine since beta and now the change and a change which people are almost universally NOT happy with? Why I ask. Why?

Padding to increase playtime. That is all. It shows zos has lack of confidence in their content and uses artificial measures to slow down player progression so we play longer. It makes no sense because players were full vr14 for over 6 months and still enjoyed the game and continued to play. Slowing down our time to get fully kitted out is only going to annoy players and force them to leave.

azoriangaming

for me personally most of my game time before imperial city was running around gathering mats to test new stuff on various toons and helping guild members get set up that are casuals but sadly this has been taken out of the game and you're forced to pick one and stick with it and not help guild members due to lack of mats making this even more of a anti-social game, which kinda defeats the object of play how you want to play imo.

the nodes are too rare in the new dlc also so I don't see it reverting back to how it was any time soon

BalticBlues

Faulgor wrote: »

After IC, we finally have things to do in ESO.
I've been feeding my horses for almost a year with nothing to do

You only fed your horse over a year? No Cyrodiil PVP, no trials PVE?
It looks like gameplay with objektives is not for you.

Faulgor wrote: »

I have one VR16 weapon, nothing else.

Building just one weapon in several weeks you hardly can call "crafting" anymore.

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't have the styles I want yet

If even you as a pro grinder cannot grind enough of what you need,
what are casual gamers supposed to do?
Buy stuff needed for crafting in the crown store?

Casdha

I'll admit, the reason ZOS seems to want to take this route is because of folks like me. My favorite thing to do in this game has become making and spending gold. I can make gold quicker and buy the items I want with a fraction of the effort of grinding, I had the Xivkyn achievement in about a week and a half of playing an hour a night.

What ZOS doesn't realize is making things like this rare only buffs the thing I like to do most in this game. On the other hand if they change it, I wouldn't complain as I would have no problem making my own gear. I've probably sold hundreds of thousands of Void mats back to the vendor just because it isn't worth the effort of trying to sell them to players but I still farm them because I make a lot off of the other materials I get when farming them. I can get those money makers whether it is Void or Ruby, but if Ruby remains as rare as it is, I will make a ton and have those new motifs and what knot in no time.

The only way to keep me from earning new motifs and stuff this way is to make them Crown only,,,, at which point I would likely leave the game.

bcamors_ESO

The argument mostly is about time. Ramp time is currently causing the most fear. Then you have the sustainability group and then the saturation group. Personally, I can be a crafter at any of those stages. Particularly with how loosely the term is utilized.

newtinmpls

Hagebutte wrote: »

I don't see why they would even put the old nodes to the new zone. What am I supposed to do with those mats when the writs need the new mats.

This ^^^^^

And this makes the statements from various members of the ZoS PR community look like outright liars.

newtinmpls

Nebthet78 wrote: »

while I am exploring and taking my time if I come across a node I will harvest it and all the nearby ones I can get too. I will not dedicate myself to just farming for mats on end. Most other casual players don't dedicate themselves to farming mats on end, they get what they need and they move on to enjoy the rest of the game.

<snip>

You might say Gold is easy to get in this game!! Well, maybe for you it is, but not for everyone.

At any given time on both of my eght character subbed accounts I have ... maybe 20-30k, then buying a few items from the guild store or upgrading bank or bag space eats it up. I've played since a month or two after PC launch.

I explore, I take my time.

So far I have found 4 dwemer pages. 1 perfect roe. 1 recipe fragments for psijic ambrosia. about 8-9 malachite. Nothing to do with glass or xivkyn other than 4 charcoal of remorse from deconning in IC.

For me and people who play like me the recent crappy RNG mats and fragments might as well not exist.

Nebthet78

Faulgor wrote: »

Nebthet78 wrote: »

-snip-

Thank you for answering at such length.

So, as I understand, you want VR15+ materials to
1) Craft for guild mates for free
2) Make armor for yourself and guildmates so you can do all guild activities

To point 1, I'll have to say that my experience is that I rarely craft for guildmates, although I have most profefssions maxed on at least one character. Why? Because so do they. It's not a state I'm very happy with, as I would like to distinguish myself as a crafter, but there is not a lot of room for that outside of styles. With the rarity of VR15+ materials and the new motifs, I at least occasionally have to trade with other people.
So I'm happy for you that you can socialize through crafting, but my experience has been entirely different. Even if I do, I don't hand out materials for free except for close friends, simply because I can't afford to (no, Gold is not easy for me to come by). If you get free VR16 gear from your guild, it actually sounds to me like you both get to socialize and get to wear the new endgame gear with the current system, whereas I get nothing. So why are you upset and I am not?

To point 2, and this was probably what I was most interested in, what are these guild activites that require VR16 gear? The only piece of VR16 gear I own is a bow for my solo character, and I have done nearly everything in the game that is to do easily with VR14 blue or purple gear. There is really no pressing matter that would force you into anything above VR14. What is this supposedly challenging content that requires VR16?
And even if it is there, I'm not sure I agree that everyone should get to do it. There has been a considerable amount of people asking for challenging and rewarding content, and I don't think it would be fair to them either if every reward or accomplishment becomes trivial again.

I don't want to spoil your playstyle for you. In fact, I play similarly from time to time, and I'm looking forward to play through Orsinium in this manner. Malacath knows I just ride around through Wrothgar on the PTS, admiring the scenery and exploring the mountaints (it is really a fantastic zone, by far my favourite). Gathering crafting nodes has become a much more enjoyable activity there as well.
But if everything was a VR15 node, I wouldn't even bother to get off my horse anymore, because the reward is trivial and I know I can just get another one around the corner if I need one.

...
...

Well, that settles that. This will make VR15+ materials positively abundant.
This also means they will probably add a new material tier with VR17/18, because they don't want to see everyone decked out in the new endgame gear immediately after every update. It's probably their implementation of "seasonal gear".
VR16 gear could have kept us progessing for several months, but you wanted it now.

Be careful what you wish for, sometimes you might get it.

I am sorry to hear that you have not found a guild like the one I am in that helps each other that much and is more like a family than a group of people looking to get rich off of each other.

Perhaps one of the things you are not aware of about Orsinium is that it was actually meant to be a V17/18 zone with new mats to match. Bristlecone! But ZOS is trying to remove all aspects of those levels out of Orsinium prior to it's release because of the flack they got about raising things to V16 in the first place and the flack they would receive by raising it again so soon. But I do not think they originally planned to release Ors this early. I think they first hand got to see how many players hate IC and the lack of purchases from the Crown store for it.

Crafted armor was never meant to be the best of the best armor in this game. Therefore limiting all players to grinding out mats to craft something that is not meant to be the best is not right. Dropped sets were always meant to be better and with the new seasonal gear coming in, this is where the grind should be. Not the Mats.

While my Guild does not require that I have V16 gear, if I want to survive much better and have more DPS in a V16 group dungeon (Vet Level) Pledge and I know my character has certain weaknesses, then I am going to do what I need to to ensure I have that level of gear to take a lot of pressure off the healer in the group and I am going to ensure I help other players who may need it who want to participate but don't feel up to snuff so they can give it a go to.

There are also times when you as a player like to play your character a certain way, such as in a Hybrid build. This is what I do. Because my character is a vampire, I made her build out to be able to survive while being able to solo mobs (when the Vet levels were actually really hard) and being able to solo public dungeons. This meant I used heavy armor and stayed as far away from the enemy as possible.

For example.. I was helping out guildmates doing daily pledges. V16 Elden Hollow Vet pledge. We were all fine until the last boss.. Bogden the Nightflame. You know, the vampire player's nightmare boss! We died a few times on the last boss, when my guildmates noticed something. I was always the last to die. So they asked me to try something. They wanted me to Tank. But I had no taunt and only 5 skill points left. So they handed me a dropped V11 dagger and a dropped V15 shield and said put a point into puncture. Next round we beat Bogden and received the Gold key.

The team rejoiced and then they got all excited because the guild finally had someone who could tank. Something I could not have done effectively without V16 gear that I crafted.

Tanking for me was not a role I ever intended for this character. But because my guildmates needed me in this role, I was willing to give it a shot and change a few things to help them out. And while I don't intend to change my Nightblade into a permanent tank, I do intend to keep in an option if someone else cannot fill the role. But this also meant, for me, that I needed to go out and make a V16 sword and shield in preparation for filling this new role. I am not going to half arse it.

Lucky for me, I had some extra mats on me that I had been saving up to use for an ALT. I cried inside a little because I needed to use them on a character I hadn't intended to, but sometimes it is better to help others out than to be selfish.

There are a lot of players out there like me, you want better and easier access to these mats because they change gear a lot. There are many players who have specific sets of gear for PVP and another for PVE Questing and yet another for Trials and Pledges and they constantly go back and forth between all of them.

Dealing with gaining mats on the level of IC and Ors as it is currently, means these players will have to grind, grind, grind and grind some more for months on end to get these mats only to have to do it 4 months down the road when the next DLC is released and especially if they raise VR levels again.

Again, I will state there are certain grinds in the game that are ok, but not for basic mats. Grinding to have to find a specific dropped armor set with specific traits is fine. Grinding to be able to find pieces to a motif is fine (as long as it is not stretched out too much to make sale in Crown store more advantageous *Cough* Glass Motif *Cough*). Grinding certain things to get special crafting style drops like Charcoal of Remorse and Malachite are fine, as long as they have a decent drop rate or can be received from decon at a decent amount. We already know Seasonal Gear is going to be a thing and that is something for more hard core players to look forward to.

Faulgor wrote: »

After IC, we finally have things to do in ESO.
I've been feeding my horses for almost a year with nothing to do

Now who's fault is this? No one but your own. Even with the delay of content due to Console release there was always something to do in this game. IF you didn't rush through it.

Faulgor wrote: »

I have one VR16 weapon, nothing else.

When you finally get a full set, you will then understand how important the actual boost to your stats are and how they affect your game and what you can do.

Faulgor wrote: »

I don't have the styles I want yet

It is good that you have something to work towards in the game, but the majority of players who like to craft and upgrade their gear by Crafting should not be held back because you like the grind.

Lastly, if ZOS chooses to raise VR levels in the future, I personally won't mind. I also won't mind the new mats that come with it, as long as they are readily available for harvesting like all regular nodes and don't become a grind like IC made them. Mats are not suppose to be a reward, but an integral part of the social system in ESO to promote trade and helping of other players. If I have to hoard all I find for myself because I have 8 characters that I actively play and the mats are super rare, then I can't trade with or help other players I socialize with in the way I want to. It begins to shut that system down.