omfgitsbatman wrote: »

Duukar wrote: »

Shields right now replace heals and defend against anything. This set means a player will need to use varied skills to defend against varied attackers.

If you face a Shield Breaker you DONT CAST A SHIELD. Having a shield up adds 2.1k you cant defend.

So instead of slotting one skill to stack your defense and be nearly unkillable you will need to slot 2 skills for defense. Making wise choices on the fly will keep you alive and making bad choices, like relying on shield spam to survive ANY ATTACK, will get you killed.

This is the best thing to happen to PvP in ages.

Well played Zeni. Do not nerf this set!!!!


DUUK

How do you know that you're facing a person in a shield breaker set until it's too late?

Does it matter?? People still shoot arrows at me after I cast reflect with 10ft wings to give them a hint then ZoS added another animation of a bubble around me after the giant 10ft wings animation ended..still the same people shoot arrows at me.

Xeniph wrote: »

Using abilities against a shield stacker with this set is a dps loss. But you are right, I don't foresee a new light attack only build becoming the new meta.

To be fair, the meta will initially be filled with shieldbreaker spam. Although a mediocre player could not burst through shields, a mediocre sorc could gear and cast shields. So, a lot of pent up nerd rage will be vented and shield sorcs will be getting the business end from multiple people at once. Since sorcs typically run low health in a shield build....

A veritable shooting gallery. I won't be on my sorc until it dies down...

@Derra Well, to be honest I'm far from convinced that core game mechanics issues can be solved by implementing a new proc on a new set, for at least two reasons:
- The core problem is not solved, and using a particular set to solve the issue is actually just a workaround
- This makes people too much dependent on a few sets, and therefore acts against the build diversity

I think ZOS should not only invest on new contents but should also invest on solving properly some core game mechanics that have not proven to be working exactly as intended (to say the least).

One good example of that is the gameplay based on resource management. It's a great innovation, and is fun to play because it opens the doors to a very dynamic combat system. But it has at least one major drawback: people can spam burst damage skills and this is a huge source of imbalance. Wrecking Blow is not that bad because it requires a cast time, giving the defender a small window where he can do something to avoid the hit. And because it has a cast time, it cannot be spam as easily as if it were an instant cast skill. But now consider Surprise Attack. This skill can be spammed and hits as a truck. This is where the resource management of ESO has its limits.

I hope that ZOS will seriously rework their combat system instead of inventing new sets to counter some of their design issues.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Derra Well, to be honest I'm far from convinced that core game mechanics issues can be solved by implementing a new proc on a new set, for at least two reasons:
- The core problem is not solved, and using a particular set to solve the issue is actually just a workaround
- This makes people too much dependent on a few sets, and therefore acts against the build diversity

I think ZOS should not only invest on new contents but should also invest on solving properly some core game mechanics that have not proven to be working exactly as intended (to say the least).

One good example of that is the gameplay based on resource management. It's a great innovation, and is fun to play because it opens the doors to a very dynamic combat system. But it has at least one major drawback: people can spam burst damage skills and this is a huge source of imbalance. Wrecking Blow is not that bad because it requires a cast time, giving the defender a small window where he can do something to avoid the hit. And because it has a cast time, it cannot be spam as easily as if it were an instant cast skill. But now consider Surprise Attack. This skill can be spammed and hits as a truck. This is where the resource management of ESO has its limits.

I hope that ZOS will seriously rework their combat system instead of inventing new sets to counter some of their design issues.

I pretty much agree with everything you´ve said. Shields need to be looked at and the shieldbreaker set is just a lackluster implementation.
Personal opinion is: It screws over builds not 100% shield dependant more than the other builds which is stupid to begin with.

The resource based combat system was actually pretty spot on in daoc with shrouded isles.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I'm failing to see why slotting combat prayer won't cover this.
On live I'll heal between 6-9k per cast.
That will be 4-6k next patch.

Why are people saying that combat prayer + mutagen won't heal though light attack spam with this set?

Because we´ve tested exactly that. The only thing capable of healing the dmg of (admittedly only light attack spam with a bow) is healing springs + rapid regen. Even with these two slotted once you are healdebuffed you NEED purge to counter that or you will die.

As other players have said. It does not get better when ppl use other attacks. A full combination of lets say lightattack + set + suprise attack + bash is very much capable of twoshotting players even on the pts.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Derra Did you make the same tests with a dual wield or a 2h instead of a bow? Just curious if the swing is fast enough with melee weapons to get the same result as with a bow.

We used 1h shield for a couple of tests but honestly it´s not about the potential of spamming only light attacks anyway. The set buffs your normal dmg rotation by quite a bit and counters a wide variety of defense once shields are in play - should this go live as is we´ll all be running this in our grp builds (because thats where 250 weaponpower are not as important as getting dmg through that last second healing ward - hnnnggg).

Since nobody from zos has even bothered to comment here if some of the issues (harness magica proccing for stamina attacks, ignoring mistform + block mitigation and invalidating healing ward compared to breath of live) are even being looked at i´m currently busy working out how to get 50k stones as fast as possible...

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we atleast get a response on the issues mentioned above? Is this all working as intended?

When you say test are you refering to the 3 clip video on this thread? Of so please see comment 463. That test is an inaccurate portal of how the set actually operates in a real situation.

You´re right. In a real situation it gets worse...

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I'm failing to see why slotting combat prayer won't cover this.
On live I'll heal between 6-9k per cast.
That will be 4-6k next patch.

Why are people saying that combat prayer + mutagen won't heal though light attack spam with this set?

Because we´ve tested exactly that. The only thing capable of healing the dmg of (admittedly only light attack spam with a bow) is healing springs + rapid regen. Even with these two slotted once you are healdebuffed you NEED purge to counter that or you will die.

As other players have said. It does not get better when ppl use other attacks. A full combination of lets say lightattack + set + suprise attack + bash is very much capable of twoshotting players even on the pts.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Derra Did you make the same tests with a dual wield or a 2h instead of a bow? Just curious if the swing is fast enough with melee weapons to get the same result as with a bow.

We used 1h shield for a couple of tests but honestly it´s not about the potential of spamming only light attacks anyway. The set buffs your normal dmg rotation by quite a bit and counters a wide variety of defense once shields are in play - should this go live as is we´ll all be running this in our grp builds (because thats where 250 weaponpower are not as important as getting dmg through that last second healing ward - hnnnggg).

Since nobody from zos has even bothered to comment here if some of the issues (harness magica proccing for stamina attacks, ignoring mistform + block mitigation and invalidating healing ward compared to breath of live) are even being looked at i´m currently busy working out how to get 50k stones as fast as possible...

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we atleast get a response on the issues mentioned above? Is this all working as intended?

When you say test are you refering to the 3 clip video on this thread? Of so please see comment 463. That test is an inaccurate portal of how the set actually operates in a real situation.

You´re right. In a real situation it gets worse...

Again disagree. Did you even read my post? A battle situation does not mean standing there spamming heals while allowing someone to attack you. You dodge, use los, block, counter attack, and cc. All of which can allow you to get a heal off and it to be more effective rather then let someone attack you while doing so. Again please read comment 463.

Yep, read your posts. I only thing it leads me to believe is you´ve never fought with a small grp being outnumbered 4 or 5 to one, because you´d know better than to post this nonsense if you did.

If it makes you feel better i will ask yuke later to give me a pounding and record it for you with his S&B stam dk.

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I'm failing to see why slotting combat prayer won't cover this.
On live I'll heal between 6-9k per cast.
That will be 4-6k next patch.

Why are people saying that combat prayer + mutagen won't heal though light attack spam with this set?

Because we´ve tested exactly that. The only thing capable of healing the dmg of (admittedly only light attack spam with a bow) is healing springs + rapid regen. Even with these two slotted once you are healdebuffed you NEED purge to counter that or you will die.

As other players have said. It does not get better when ppl use other attacks. A full combination of lets say lightattack + set + suprise attack + bash is very much capable of twoshotting players even on the pts.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Derra Did you make the same tests with a dual wield or a 2h instead of a bow? Just curious if the swing is fast enough with melee weapons to get the same result as with a bow.

We used 1h shield for a couple of tests but honestly it´s not about the potential of spamming only light attacks anyway. The set buffs your normal dmg rotation by quite a bit and counters a wide variety of defense once shields are in play - should this go live as is we´ll all be running this in our grp builds (because thats where 250 weaponpower are not as important as getting dmg through that last second healing ward - hnnnggg).

Since nobody from zos has even bothered to comment here if some of the issues (harness magica proccing for stamina attacks, ignoring mistform + block mitigation and invalidating healing ward compared to breath of live) are even being looked at i´m currently busy working out how to get 50k stones as fast as possible...

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we atleast get a response on the issues mentioned above? Is this all working as intended?

When you say test are you refering to the 3 clip video on this thread? Of so please see comment 463. That test is an inaccurate portal of how the set actually operates in a real situation.

You´re right. In a real situation it gets worse...

Again disagree. Did you even read my post? A battle situation does not mean standing there spamming heals while allowing someone to attack you. You dodge, use los, block, counter attack, and cc. All of which can allow you to get a heal off and it to be more effective rather then let someone attack you while doing so. Again please read comment 463.

Yep, read your posts. I only thing it leads me to believe is you´ve never fought with a small grp being outnumbered 4 or 5 to one, because you´d know better than to post this nonsense if you did.

Lol just wow. Here it is again. Forum QQ reasoning has struck again. No argumwnt. No reasoning. N9thing. Just the typical respose. "Well your wrong and oviously no nothing although you have given this well reasoned argument and I just said your wrong."

Now usually I would just post the above, but I am going to go ahead and jump ahead a couple posts where your next response will be, "well I don't want to have a discussion with someone who doesn't even understand how to play"

So instead of having a logical argument with someone bringing up valid and we'll reasoned points you simply disregard it and continue about your day like it never happened. Thereby, continuing to only yell nerf without a well reasoned argument yourself and simply ignoring ones that counter your own broad points and staged tests that show nothing. In fact a test which I have shown to simply help my argument.

Typical QQ arguments. This is why zos does not listen to these types 9f arguments they are grounded, at best, 8n flawed arguments that are torn apart by others and subsequently ignored by the person yelling nerf although, like my argument, give reasons why you are wrong. Who 8s an objective mind going to side with? A person with little to no well reasoned argument that ignores rebutted arguments, or a person who sufficiently lays out counter points to a bs argument while also providing well reasoned points to advocate for their position? In fact, by refusing to engage in discussion with sound argumenta, you are simply hurting the argument for people that may have a well reasoned argument that advocate for the same thing you are trying to do.

Xeniph wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

jrkhan wrote: »

I'm failing to see why slotting combat prayer won't cover this.
On live I'll heal between 6-9k per cast.
That will be 4-6k next patch.

Why are people saying that combat prayer + mutagen won't heal though light attack spam with this set?

Because we´ve tested exactly that. The only thing capable of healing the dmg of (admittedly only light attack spam with a bow) is healing springs + rapid regen. Even with these two slotted once you are healdebuffed you NEED purge to counter that or you will die.

As other players have said. It does not get better when ppl use other attacks. A full combination of lets say lightattack + set + suprise attack + bash is very much capable of twoshotting players even on the pts.

trimsic_ESO wrote: »

@Derra Did you make the same tests with a dual wield or a 2h instead of a bow? Just curious if the swing is fast enough with melee weapons to get the same result as with a bow.

We used 1h shield for a couple of tests but honestly it´s not about the potential of spamming only light attacks anyway. The set buffs your normal dmg rotation by quite a bit and counters a wide variety of defense once shields are in play - should this go live as is we´ll all be running this in our grp builds (because thats where 250 weaponpower are not as important as getting dmg through that last second healing ward - hnnnggg).

Since nobody from zos has even bothered to comment here if some of the issues (harness magica proccing for stamina attacks, ignoring mistform + block mitigation and invalidating healing ward compared to breath of live) are even being looked at i´m currently busy working out how to get 50k stones as fast as possible...

@ZOS_GinaBruno can we atleast get a response on the issues mentioned above? Is this all working as intended?

When you say test are you refering to the 3 clip video on this thread? Of so please see comment 463. That test is an inaccurate portal of how the set actually operates in a real situation.

You´re right. In a real situation it gets worse...

That right there is just false information. The situation gets better for the defender in a "real" fight. Due to interrupts, CC, LOS, Roll dodge, block. Putting pressure on the attacker under normal circumstances will lower the dps, not even taking into account that abilities will be used, futher lowering the amount of light attacks incoming.

What do you propose the team respond to? Harness and Ward are shields and as for mistform and block, what part of "unresistable" damage is confusing? Regardless of what the shield absorbs, or what damage type initiated the attack, if a shield is present and a light attack is performed, the set bonus kicks in. I don't get where folks require more clarification on the matter.

Harness is currently a shield that only absorbs magica attacks. Once you apply it a stamina based build will not drain it and you´ve pretty much given them a free 2000 dmg on every lightattack without harness defending against anything they do. Seems reasonable...
I don´t get why this set is stamina based anyway. Shields are a far greater problems for magica builds to begin with.

You just come here saying: lolol it´s working like the setbonus states.

Also block... Set ignores block too so anyone playing a blockchar is going to be really pleased when he gets my healing ward and after that just explodes to a moron spamming light attacks which he can do exactly nothing about.

The setbonus should atleast only work on shields initiated by the attacked target AND only if the lightattack triggering it was absorbed by a shield.

Derra wrote: »

Try to look at it this way:

Normal fight is pretty balanced currently (apart from really low dmg so nobody dies anyway). Both characters get cced use los and dodgeroll and other forms of mitigation. Then you add in 2150 irresistable hp dmg on one side of the party for if the other one uses their main defensive ability. This is where your logic is flawed. You assume a normal fight will only relieve pressure bc there is cc on the enemy and you can use los and such.
But that is happening for both sides already. You can pretty much take it out of the equasion because it´s already a factor on both sides. You only have to look at the setdmg and what you have to do to counter it. All this set does is add more pressure on someone utilizing dmgshields.

I mean the logic here is flawed. Yes both players can do all of those things. Ofcourse. That does not get to the point of what I am saying. Using those tactics create more time to proc healing ward and heals etc. For instance, 8f I am fighting a player need to proc ward I cc and use los to do so. Bam healed. The fact that the other player can use cc and Los is of no importance in this situation. They can't cc me cause 8 just cc them and then broke los. Sure they can cc me but now my ward has proc and back to full health. Sure they can cc and attack me in a fight which will drag down effective healing at that point in time. But I may not have to be healed at that point in time. As you pointed out damage 8s low so I continue the f8ght. Then when I need to I pull a combo to proc my healing. You merely cannot take something out 9f the equation b/c both players have the opportunity to do something. In fact, by this logic, player skill does not matter only gear sets. That is inherently wrong. Moreover, you are right this set damage does add more pressure to a player utilizing a shield. That is precisely the point. Currently there is no pressure on these players. They are the only players to not have an efficient counter. It is only 2150 damage. And as you pointed out yourself damage is low in pvp. Add into the factor a person spamming shields and how are you suppose to kill them with damage so low? Again, practically speak8ng, the only time this set proves meaningful is when a player is sitting in execute range with a shield on. Then this set plays a role against that specific playstyle. Once that healing ward procs that's it you see minimal help from the set in actually combat. It is not a game changer as you seem to be implying in your posts. It is merely a way to execute a shield player that would normally jump back to full health after a sustained fight. If anything, healing ward is op in this new meta without this set.

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Try to look at it this way:

Normal fight is pretty balanced currently (apart from really low dmg so nobody dies anyway). Both characters get cced use los and dodgeroll and other forms of mitigation. Then you add in 2150 irresistable hp dmg on one side of the party for if the other one uses their main defensive ability. This is where your logic is flawed. You assume a normal fight will only relieve pressure bc there is cc on the enemy and you can use los and such.
But that is happening for both sides already. You can pretty much take it out of the equasion because it´s already a factor on both sides. You only have to look at the setdmg and what you have to do to counter it. All this set does is add more pressure on someone utilizing dmgshields.

I mean the logic here is flawed. Yes both players can do all of those things. Ofcourse. That does not get to the point of what I am saying. Using those tactics create more time to proc healing ward and heals etc. For instance, 8f I am fighting a player need to proc ward I cc and use los to do so. Bam healed. The fact that the other player can use cc and Los is of no importance in this situation. They can't cc me cause 8 just cc them and then broke los. Sure they can cc me but now my ward has proc and back to full health. Sure they can cc and attack me in a fight which will drag down effective healing at that point in time. But I may not have to be healed at that point in time. As you pointed out damage 8s low so I continue the f8ght. Then when I need to I pull a combo to proc my healing. You merely cannot take something out 9f the equation b/c both players have the opportunity to do something. In fact, by this logic, player skill does not matter only gear sets. That is inherently wrong. Moreover, you are right this set damage does add more pressure to a player utilizing a shield. That is precisely the point. Currently there is no pressure on these players. They are the only players to not have an efficient counter. It is only 2150 damage. And as you pointed out yourself damage is low in pvp. Add into the factor a person spamming shields and how are you suppose to kill them with damage so low? Again, practically speak8ng, the only time this set proves meaningful is when a player is sitting in execute range with a shield on. Then this set plays a role against that specific playstyle. Once that healing ward procs that's it you see minimal help from the set in actually combat. It is not a game changer as you seem to be implying in your posts. It is merely a way to execute a shield player that would normally jump back to full health after a sustained fight. If anything, healing ward is op in this new meta without this set.

The problem with your way of looking at the fight is you only take into account the defensive side. You can´t just los and wait for your healing ward to proccs if you actually want to kill your opponent...

Hence why I said using a combo such as cc and los. There is also BE. This gives you a stun, puts you out of range, and can get you around an obstacle to break los. There is fear, cloak, and shadow image for a nb. There is reflect, talons, petrified for dk. You have multiple cc with templar, but this will probably be a little more of a problem for temos. That said, a templar should be using BOH anyway.

I am primarily looking at the defensive side cause you are advocating for the offensive issues. So what it boils down to at this point is which player has the better skill and out counters the other player. Once a player with say healing ward seeks to pull off a combo to proc healing ward and the opposing player seeks to pull a combo to prevent that it is now based o player skill. Who pulls of the better Com o? Who is more efficient in doing so? Who strikes first? It is a chess match that makes or breaks it not a set that adds a counter 9f 2k damage to a shield user. This is further solidified 8n what I have seen on the pts. I have been killed by players who could effectively proc it by doing the stuff above and out duelin me. I have also killed players who I have prevented from pricing the ward. It comes down to skill at the end 9f the day.

Templar group healer here.
5 pcs bonus set of Combat Physician said : "Critically healing an ally grants them a 3478 damage shield for 8 seconds. This effect has a cool down of 6 seconds."

So, running this set is like weaken our own group if opponent run Shieldbreaker set, right ?

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Babiole wrote: »

Templar group healer here.
5 pcs bonus set of Combat Physician said : "Critically healing an ally grants them a 3478 damage shield for 8 seconds. This effect has a cool down of 6 seconds."

So, running this set is like weaken our own group if opponent run Shieldbreaker set, right ?

one your in a group. so, targeting a player with this set first will be helpful.

two, it is suppose to act as a counter to shields.

three, your still mitigating their damage with this on. a player with this set will get more damage against a player who gets this sheild by bursting through the sheild. simply light attacking the player for 8 seconds will be less beneficail in terms of dps, than bursting down the shield in one second and then attacking the player.
that player with the sheild is still gettting damaged mitiagted from a primary dps ability. now the player is getting hit with 3k damage rather than 5k damage.

again, you still have to come across these players. players specifically geared to counter shields. it is not like a group of players will be running around all using this set.

If this set goes live the way it´s currently working any grp with a brain (not 24 blobs but 3 to 10 ppl) will do exactly that on their stamina dps. Should there be no change we will do it simply because it is that strong...
Don´t fool yourself to believe it´s not going to be popular and there will be grps with dps all using this set. Every support build in the game relies on shields to some extend. Kill the support => kill the grp. This is your set.

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

bowmanz607 wrote: »

Babiole wrote: »

Templar group healer here.
5 pcs bonus set of Combat Physician said : "Critically healing an ally grants them a 3478 damage shield for 8 seconds. This effect has a cool down of 6 seconds."

So, running this set is like weaken our own group if opponent run Shieldbreaker set, right ?

one your in a group. so, targeting a player with this set first will be helpful.

two, it is suppose to act as a counter to shields.

three, your still mitigating their damage with this on. a player with this set will get more damage against a player who gets this sheild by bursting through the sheild. simply light attacking the player for 8 seconds will be less beneficail in terms of dps, than bursting down the shield in one second and then attacking the player.
that player with the sheild is still gettting damaged mitiagted from a primary dps ability. now the player is getting hit with 3k damage rather than 5k damage.

again, you still have to come across these players. players specifically geared to counter shields. it is not like a group of players will be running around all using this set.

If this set goes live the way it´s currently working any grp with a brain (not 24 blobs but 3 to 10 ppl) will do exactly that on their stamina dps. Should there be no chance we will do it simply because it is that strong...
Don´t fool yourself to believe it´s not going to be popular and there will be grps with dps all using this set. Every support build in the game relies on shields to some extend. Kill the support => kill the grp. This is your set.

sorry but many players will elect 5k or 6k damage over this set. also, every group/player with half a brain knows to attack the healer first. the current playstyle is to attack the support build first. nothing has changed in that respect. your over estimation of this sets power leads you to false conclusions. also, as i mentioned in a previous post, magika builds are the got to in this meta and not everyone wants to use a situational set bonus and will elect to go with other sets that provide more damag or sustain.

OMG there is a counter to sheilds time to QQ. you know i think we need to nerf fighter guild abilities because it is countering my vamp. I would also like to nerf all gap closers because they are countering my bolt escape. Also, can we get a nerf on reflect, it is countering my projectiles. can i also get a nerf to magelight, it is countering my stealth attacks. but most of all can we get a nerf to peircing mark. it is countering my stealth and last too long. thanks ZoS.

good grief.

If piercing mark was not limited to the class it counters anyway i´d be arguing to nerf it too...

I think this armor set should match its name. As the SHIELD BREAKER should really do something with shield rather than people with shield.

This one should intended to help wearer removing foes' shields quickly , if a foe spam shield he/she will soon out of mana because of the spamming speed is not equal to the removing speed, then they will pay the price of spamming shields when fighting with people wearing this armor set.

From another aspect, shields are designed to protect the caster not a betrayer to kill caster faster , this should not happen in any situation.
However, right now SB armor set really let shield become a betrayer thank help wearer to kill caster faster than usual. This designing , IMO, is not logical , unprofessional and ridiculous.

I had an idea, hold on for a sec, until the end at least.
What if we further increase the damage of the shield breaker set, but let it be mitigatable by armor, block and other resistances. This way suddenly it won't slaughter heavy armor tanks, healers and everybody who gets accidental hit by a shield; so much. It would only need a formula reworking and if a sorc is getting slaughtered by this set, at least there is something that can be done about it: equip heavy armor, block or move some points out of magicka...

Just an idea, please don't whine me to death guys.