Feedback: Shieldbreaker 5p-set - it´s OP and should not go live.

Derra

EDIT: Just to make it clear. I have no desire for unkillable sorcs that tank multiple people for extended periods of time. My main concern with this set is for small grp play as a healer that can only utilize the restoration staff (with healing ward as a burstheal). The current set implementation makes this playstyle completely unvaible. Further it forces every magica sorcerer to use a restoration staff to even be able to combat someone using this set (forcing them to stack shields even more). Personally i feel that this is the wrong way for discouraging people to use multiple shields (which is the main issue with shields in my opinion) - i´ve not heared many complains about sorcs only using their classshield.
This topic is a discussion to find a solution to keep the setbonus a vaible counter against shields without turning every shield in the game into an undesireable debuff with huge implications for solo and smallgrp play for all magica builds.

The buff to the shieldbreaker set in the latest pts 2.1.2 patch brought us to the point where we had to test the actual dmg and impact it could have on builds that focus on dmgshields as their one and only defense. I´m mainly playing grp support in a 3 to 5 person grp with my sorcerer so a set giving extra dmg on my only vaible pvp burstheal is nothing fun to start with. This is mainly written from the pov of a non templar grp player who enjoys to play heal/support:


We recorded a short clip of the 5piece bonus in action in three different scenarios.
1. Is a sorc with their normal hotbar setup without any aditional healing abilities: Healing ward spam only.
2. Specific healing ability slottet to counter the setbonus: Rapidregeneration + healing ward spam.
3. Two healing abilities slotted: Rapid regeneration + combat prayer + healing ward.

https://youtu.be/ZEhL_DonvnU

EDIT 23.08.2015:


First situation it´s clearly evident that DKs can force dmg of the shieldbreaker 5p bonus with fossilize which gives the victim a small dmg shield which proccs shieldbreaker. This has nice potential to work as a finisher for coordinated attacks with grps. One player fossilizes and the other hit lightattacks. Hooray!

Second situation is something all vampire players (they thought vampire was going to become better with 2.1 - well guess again) are going to love. Shieldbreaker ignores mistform mitigation completely.

ENJOY:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvFNjRo3APs&spfreload=10


Please keep in mind that this is only to showcase the dmg potential of the shieldbreaker set. We tested on a sorcerer with 35k magica and 2000 spellpower and 20k hp while the attacking character was full hp specced with only 1700 weapondmg. Put into practice when used in templates that actually deal dmg or with multiple attackers and grp fights the following problems are going to multiply.

The first problem might be considered a bug: The extradmg proccs on stamina lightattacks when harness magica is active on the target which does in no way interact with physical dmg. Due to this someone with harness magica up will basically buff anyones dmg who´s using that set.

Secondly it renders the only active defense left for the sorcerer class useless (infact you´re better off not using your class shield at all when someone with that set is attacking you). It forces any magica sorcerer to slot atleast rapid regeneration + another healing ability + purge to combat the dmgoutput of the setbonus. You can see in the last clip of the video when the healdebuff of the enchantment proccs i go down even while spamming combat prayer. Purge is a must have against any build with a healing debuff using this set. This forces any magica sorc to use a restoration staff as second weapon and THREE skillslots with abilities dedicated to combat one setbonus to not be a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set.
I can´t comment on magica nightblades as i did not play one on the pts yet - it might be even worse depending on the ongoing fixes to cloak.

Thirdly, and this might be the most important issue i have with the current implementation of the shieldbreaker set: It renders any attempt to heal in pvp for non templars futile. PvP is about burstdmg and healing has to react to that burstdmg. Currently this is possible with the restoration staff spell healing ward. This will not be the case if the shieldbreaker set goes live in it´s current form.
A low hp target affected by healing ward is basically a freekill for anyone using the shieldbreaker set. No class but templars will be able to perform the healerrole reliably because the restoration staffs tool to combat burstdmg will actually be a deathsentence to the affected player.


Possible fixes (many good suggestions so far thank you all for keeping a healthy discussion going) for the set to stay a vaible option but not be overpowered as it currently is, would be:
1: Let battlespirit debuff take effect on the setbonus.
2: Let the setbonus only attack shields. - maybe increase dmg too ~3000 on the shield

Edit: 3: Add a cooldown to the 5p bonus (by @dracane)
4: 5p-bonus: Increase dmg on shields by 100% (by @dduke) - maybe 50 to 70% might be more in line (addition by derra)
5: Remove the set make shields not stackable (major minor buff system)
6. Remove the set make shields critable (maybe rebalancing of overflow hits with mitigation)
7. Make the set only work on melee attack (@duukar)
8. Different ideas by @Xorus:
You could increase damage and have it only work with heavy attacks.

Could have it apply a debuff to a target with a shield, basically have it work like last gasp in rift, where it'd apply a dot, that would add a stack of the dot to the target whenever they were healed stacking to a max of 5, but since it did a tic of the dot when healed it acted like a heal reduction as well

If shield breaker applied a dot that kept increasing in damage everytime you refreshed your shield that might be interesting.
9: Increase dmg on shields for all attacks by 33% PER SHIELD ACTIVE on the target.

My personal favorite would be critical hits on shield AND having a system that makes shields unable to stack - it would lead to more build diversity in my opinion. Sadly this would require rebalancing of almost every shield skill in the game and is therefor unlikely.

Sallington

Oh no! A counter to shield stacking!!!

It looks like this is the exact and only scenario that the set bonus is meant to be useful.

Ace_SiN

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Thalmor-Nordmaster

I watching this video and you kept dying. And just heals why you die so much. Soft and squishy like little bunny!

Derra

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

bosmern_ESO

Its OP because you can die now after stacking 30k shields?

cjthibs

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

Which is the point...unless I'm mistaken?

Vanzen

This set has to go ...
It does the same with Dk igneous shield which is already subpar and only taken for the +30% heal. This set works then like a heal debuf as you cant use igneous shield at all or you ll die faster than by healing yourself only with gdb wich in turn will be even more pathetic than it already is in pts..
Basicaly, this set means that you can have a guy spamming light bow attack safely from afar and totaly destroying in seconds any sorcerer and DK in range.
Yes.
This set cant make it to live.

Derra

cjthibs wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

Which is the point...unless I'm mistaken?

I don´t think the point of the set was to make the healer role unplayable for 3 out of 4 classes and hardcounter the only active defense of one class by 100%.

There is a difference between being useful or even good against shields and hardcounter them to the point where you don´t want to use any shield under any circumstance when encountering a set someone is wearing.

Teiji

This set exists and will exist in its current form until ZoS decide what to do with Damage Shields.

This is a placeholder for damage shield balancing.

If you don't like it, take Armor Master set, take Greater Ward and Greater Armor buffs.

I remember back on Auriel's Bow, everyone in the raid would run Immovable. Now it's not a regularly seen ability even though it's strong.

Immovable is strong now similarly to how it was back on Auriel's Bow, the duration has been butchered for CC immunity, but you get long duration defensive stats.

Damage shields need balancing, this can't be argued because it's a fact of the current state of the game with no softcaps. Once damage shields are balanced, expect changes to Shieldbreaker set.

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by player hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Dracane

Excuse me, but this set is OP.
We don't have to discuss, that this needs to be turned down
I couldn't believe my eyes when I saw the video.

cjthibs

Keep in mind that for someone to use this they have to forego other 5-set bonuses that would make them more survivable or whatever. They will be a less powerful character just for using this. It's a trade-off.

Most people will not be running this. BUT, it'll be great to see the pucker factor when someone does show up with it.

The example tooltip I saw said about 1k damage at VR14. What are y'all seeing in PTS?
(This would only be 500 damage if I'm not mistaken?)

Derra

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by played hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Since this set is useful against every magica build out there and even against stamina DKs (better don´t cast that igneos shield) i don´t see a reason not to use it. Especially in grp fights when you can´t control healing wards from other players and instead of helping you they actually kill you by casting a ward on you.

Dracane

Maybe they could leave this as it is, but definately implement a cooldown. This set should be helpfull, since it only helps against shields. But spamming light attack non stop to kill someone within seconds can't be right.

A cooldown should help.

Wreuntzylla

So you have to wear some heavy armor, run purge and slot a heal or two. Sounds like a perfect description of a Templar on live.

Vanzen

This set means the death in seconds from light atttacks (LIGHT ATTACKS ?!!!) for any shielded sorcerers (Is there any other sort ? )and igneous shield DK user.

Derra

Wreuntzylla wrote: »

So you have to wear some heavy armor, run purge and slot a heal or two. Sounds like a perfect description of a Templar on live.

With the exception that a templar on live has a burstheal that he can heal his grpmates with. A nontemplar giving out healing ward to low hp targets makes them freekills. But yeah - almost like a templar - almost.

Sallington

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by played hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Since this set is useful against every magica build out there and even against stamina DKs (better don´t cast that igneos shield) i don´t see a reason not to use it. Especially in grp fights when you can´t control healing wards from other players and instead of helping you they actually kill you by casting a ward on you.

How often is someone just going to let someone else just sit there and spam light attacks on them? They will be in your face trying to kill yo u as well.

Ahzek

@vanzen there are the glorious stamina sorcerers. On topic : the set fully bypassing the defense shields provide seems a bit much. In my opinion dealing 2k bonus damage to shields should be sufficient.

Dracane

In a 1v1, I wouldn't worry tooooo much about this set, it could be manageable if your enemy focuses too much on light attacks and forget about his defense. On the other hand, all he has to do is keeping his defense up and spamming light attacks.

But imagine AvA, you are distracted by enemies and some random person just spams a few light attacks out of nowwhere and you die. This set is a bit too dangerous in my opinion. It deals too much unresistable damage compared to everything what non-Templars could outheal, especially with the healing debuff in pvp

Derra

Sallington wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by played hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Since this set is useful against every magica build out there and even against stamina DKs (better don´t cast that igneos shield) i don´t see a reason not to use it. Especially in grp fights when you can´t control healing wards from other players and instead of helping you they actually kill you by casting a ward on you.

How often is someone just going to let someone else just sit there and spam light attacks on them? They will be in your face trying to kill yo u as well.

Well in practice the player utilizing this set is going to do a lot more dmg to you aswell. You can pressure someone with a shield to 100% selfheals with only lightattacks. With actual dmgskills and cc added to the mix it´s NOT going to get better for the shield user.

Erondil

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by player hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

If you stop using your only defensive tool to put pressure, the ennemy wont stop attacking and will 100% kill you before you even get him ukder 50% hp,, since they (overall) got way more damages, decent hot running and can dodgeroll your attack without wasting a GCD... no?

DDuke

Derra wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by played hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

Since this set is useful against every magica build out there and even against stamina DKs (better don´t cast that igneos shield) i don´t see a reason not to use it. Especially in grp fights when you can´t control healing wards from other players and instead of helping you they actually kill you by casting a ward on you.

Several reasons why you wouldn't be wearing this set...

1. Medium set with stamina bonuses, so you probably don't want to wear it as any magicka build.
2. You cannot combine this set with any crafted set, meaning you cannot go 5/5/2 and as a result you'll have one less set bonus.
3. 5-Set is useless against anyone not using dmg shields, making you unfavored to win those fights where not only does the opponent have possibly one more set bonus than you (5/5/2), but two set bonuses more (since 5-set of this set becomes useless). These fights include: stam sorcs, stam NBs, some stam Templars, some stam DKs, many magicka Templars, some magicka DKs.

DDuke

Erondil wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Ace_SiN wrote: »

OMG a counter actually counters what it's meant to counter! Please nerf.

Well they might aswell impletement a set that deals 2150 irresistable dmg when someone blocks or dodges an attack.
I agree that the set should be useful against shields but in it´s current form it destroys anyone utilizing dmg absorbing effects.

I'd be fine with such a set. You aren't supposed to spam roll dodge anyhow, or hold block forever...

Nor should you be spamming shield 24/7 either, especially vs someone using this specific set that is utterly useless against every other build.

You aren't instantly killed by player hitting you with this set: you have time to react, stop shield spam & apply pressure to them.

If you stop using your only defensive tool to put pressure, the ennemy wont stop attacking and will 100% kill you before you even get him ukder 50% hp,, since they (overall) got way more damages, decent hot running and can dodgeroll your attack without wasting a GCD... no?

Using this set makes them deal significantly less damage against targets without damage shield.

You are virtually losing two set bonuses, and cannot get things such as Hunding's (or Air, or Skirmisher) with this set.


This set will be used by stamina builds, and sorcs have good counters vs majority of them (Bolt Escape, mines).
Bow users might be troublesome however, but most of bow damage comes from Snipe which is easy to counter.

Ezareth

Don't forget that there are CP passives that give a player shields when they drink a potion or block. This set actually penalizes you for having those passives. At very least it should do less damage than they provide.

Mr_Koh

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

Maulkin

Sallington wrote: »

Oh no! A counter to shield stacking!!!

It looks like this is the exact and only scenario that the set bonus is meant to be useful.

Only? Considering all magicka builds use damage shields to some extent (stamina DKs too), you mean to tell me the set is extremely strong only against more than half the Cyrodiil population. Only?

You cannot outheal a simple light attack spam! I know this game is not balanced around 1v1s etc, but can you think of anything else that so completely destroys the balance in random fights between stamina and magicka builds?

Not to mention the scenario where you are fighting someone and are in trouble, I come to rescue you with a Healing Ward and instead of rescuing you, I actually end up killing you. You could even troll people by going around and debuffing them with heal ward while they are fighting.

We're not talking about removing the set. We're saying it needs toning down. If you can't survive a simple light attack spam by an archer 30m away what the heck are you going to do in cyrodill anyway?

Derra

Mr_Koh wrote: »

Thank you for the video. It's good to see the shield breaker set is working as intended. It should definitely kill any sorc who isn't fighting back. Any sorc spamming shields and entropy should be punished.

The only thing fighting back will accomplish for you when you have harness magica up is respawning faster while shaking your head at the thought this could get through a testserver environment.

DDuke

I can see the problem with CP passives & trying to save people with Healing Ward however...

Maybe they should just make this set's 5-piece be: "Damage dealt to damage shields is increased by 100%"?

I don't really care though, I'll be using my 5x SW 5x Hunding's 2x Molag Kena anyhow

Grimbim

The shieldbreaker set is way too strong at the moment. I have no problem with a fair counter against damage shields, but this set is an automatic win against any build relying on damage shields as defense. It's not just a counter if the only thing you have to do is to repeatedly smash the left mouse button. NB's and Sorc's have no instant heal, healing ward is counterproductive and the heal dot's from the resto skilltree are not strong enough to work against the irresistable damage from the 5p bonus. When i have this set equipped on pts, especially Sorc's or NB's using a damage shield are a free face roll kill.