Bolt Escape / Dodge / Blocking / Shields Nerf

Derra · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My only comment on that: Why do they nerf EVERY defensive mechanic available to players but in the same patch take the only counter to cloak and do not add a penalty to repeated use of that?

We should wait for the final patch notes.
Cloak still has their counters like AoE, Mage light, potions (don't remember that they gonna change it (?)) and mark.
I rely on AoE only, not having any problems with cloaking NBs.

Not saying its fine, but its the only real defensive ability of NBs and I think we should be able to rely on it, like you can rely on your shields, mostly at least.

Well steel-tornado is not in the same ballpark with any other aoe in the game (if i had access to a 12m range instant aoe i would not have problems aswell). Cloak is already insanely strong against ranged builds. Try fighting a magica nb that can spam cloak with a magica based ranged build. I can garantuee you´re going to shatter your mouse and keyboard.
Streak with this patch is also no longer an option (where you already had to leave your comfort zone bc ranged build) - what are you going to to? Run towards where you THINK they are - spamming Impuls screaming: WAAAARRHHHHH!!!

Also calling cloak the only defensive mechanism is a bit of an understatement when looking at shade isn´t it?

Teargrants · July 2015

I'm sorry, using bolt escape within the 4 sec cooldown is not 'abusing the hell out of it'. The game is replete with gap closers which act as hard counters to the gap opener functionality of bolt escape. Without that functionality, sorc as a class is essentially neutered completely as the class has no viable melee range self heal. People like Fengrush work with limited use of bolt escape because he relies on dodge roll as the primary dmg mitigator.

Sorc will be pushed into either full light, fill regen, drink, atronach mundus build, or a stam build. My heavy armor builds will not be viable with these changes, the increased block efficiency does not help when my 9k stam pool doesn't regen. My energy orb heals will not be viable as they rely on me blocking and being stationary while their dot heals me, so I will be forever back to the boring healing was meta. I am fond of my unconventional sorc builds, but these changes pretty much poop all over them.

Before going on about bolt escape used as an escape, any stam build with a bow and speed boost can out run a blinking sorc and keep up with the sorc for as long as it tries to run. How do I know this? Because i have NBs doing it to me on a daily basis.

Sanct16 · July 2015

The thing that worries me the most is, that it is already hard enough to find good smallscale / solofights. Of course none of the changes will make a difference for me when I am playing in a 10+ man group. Stamina back from Repentance, lot of heals, easy life. However it will be even harder to solo. As DK I won't have a reliable defense that allows me to go offensive when outnumbered. Without stamina regen and the nerf to Battle Roar blocking won't be a thing for solo fights I think. Out of Stamina in no time and then dead.
Sorcerors will probably have a harder time too as stacking shields doesnt help when you can't run from your enemies. Only class with a good defensive will be NB with cloak.

The big issue I have with that is that it make you reliant on having a group, so even more people will just zerg and seek safety in numbers.

If they'd fix the lag tho + make some counter to big stacking groups... it might be a good patch when it comes to group play at least.

Derra · July 2015

I´m going to say it: Sorc will end up buffed when this goes live. No more permaroll, no more permablock. Everything solo or small scale related is going to be sorc or NB. One of which you can´t catch (still) and one you can´t see (finally?).

Lisbette · July 2015

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Publius_Scipio · July 2015

TheBull wrote: »

My Unkillable Tank Blade build

http://youtu.be/eNr0WXQ3Ho4

BICEPS!!!!!!!!

Bromburak · July 2015

Soulac wrote: »

We should wait for the final patch notes.

I prefer an announcement about upcoming announcements that have announcements.

Derra · July 2015

Derra wrote: »

I´m going to say it: Sorc will end up buffed when this goes live. No more permaroll, no more permablock. Everything solo or small scale related is going to be sorc or NB. One of which you can´t catch (still) and one you can´t see (finally?).

Edit: Only thing i´m afraid of is that they don´t put an end to unlimited resource pools and without the ability to instantly kill ppl out of bigger grps small grps or solo players won´t be able to kill anything at all once a healer enters the pit.

WarrioroftheWind_ESO · July 2015

Lisbette wrote: »

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RLRfdOQi6jU

I didn't get to see the stream because of work and the video isn't available yet, but did they go over other abilities/mechanics they're working on to counterbalance the nerfs? Most of the time the die-hards will found alternate combos that work just as well if not better than the original strats. Shields I've always wonderd if they should be 'normalized' under a particular buff effect such as "bulwark' or 'aegis' where it counts as an effect similar to 'heroism' and 'fortitude' Also,, have they considered giving resource recovery more options? For example in older ES games attacking actually used stamina, or fatigue in even older games, but regenerated at a fairly good pace, also could be restored alot more quickly with consumables.

I'm not at all a fan of potion cooldowns standard of most MMO's. I wonder if there's any way they can work in the 'potion delay' from Oblivion/Skyrim where you could chug as many as you had but if you hit the 4-5 potion limit you'd be locked out until at least a minute passed. It'd still boil down to resource management, and some abilities could stand to do with some tweaking. I went for dark deal for stamina recovery but even with cost reduction and stam enchants, it's so slow to use in a pitched fight, and it's not like I can blink to timbuktu then charge up. Maybe they should consider instead of making some abilities channels, ad either long cast times or have them as replenish effects similar to Morrowind/Oblivion restore-fatigue spells.

Also I still want my poisons dammit.

Cinbri · July 2015

So expectable QQ even before patchnotes released. ZOS decided to fix broken/OP mechanics and people started to complain. Sorry, is obvious L2P.

pjwb16_ESO · July 2015

Germtrocity wrote: »

Can we just revert to 1.5 and call it a day? It is obvious they don't really have a grasp on what they are doing.

this pleeeeeeeeease

Xsorus · July 2015

I have a problem with the 50% reductions in Cyrodiil bit...Reductions like this usually end up breaking things in terms of balance instead of just balancing skills individually.

Warhammer Online did things like this to try and bring Bright Wizards/Sorcs into balance and ended up making classes like Magnus/Engineer and Squig/Shadow Warrior worse

Derra · July 2015

Xsorus wrote: »

I have a problem with the 50% reductions in Cyrodiil bit...Reductions like this usually end up breaking things in terms of balance instead of just balancing skills individually.

Warhammer Online did things like this to try and bring Bright Wizards/Sorcs into balance and ended up making classes like Magnus/Engineer and Squig/Shadow Warrior worse

It´s indeed a horrible idea. You can already only kill ppl with instagib combinations when there is a templar spamming 111111111 out of his BOL. When burst is nerfed it does not matter that heal is nerfed too - when the health pool stays the same targets are only going to die when the templar is out of magica.

Leandor · July 2015

We want to take a careful approaching balancing. Please bear with us as we make slight changes at a time and see how it plays out before we go to the extremes.

I remember reading something like that during the pre-release press hype (PC release). Well, at least it's only a sledgehammer and not a tactical nuke. Oh, wait...

Sanct16 · July 2015

Derra wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

I have a problem with the 50% reductions in Cyrodiil bit...Reductions like this usually end up breaking things in terms of balance instead of just balancing skills individually.

Warhammer Online did things like this to try and bring Bright Wizards/Sorcs into balance and ended up making classes like Magnus/Engineer and Squig/Shadow Warrior worse

It´s indeed a horrible idea. You can already only kill ppl with instagib combinations when there is a templar spamming 111111111 out of his BOL. When burst is nerfed it does not matter that heal is nerfed too - when the health pool stays the same targets are only going to die when the templar is out of magica.

It's probably gonna be the same for group fights. Atm you can only kill a bigger blob with a smaller group if you burst them down and making use of the moment of surprise. You will never kill anything when they spam their barriers.

Erondil · July 2015

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

Garion wrote: »

Saint_JiubB14_ESO wrote: »

so Sorcs lose survivability, nbs lose rolling, dks lose block casting. everybody roll templar, jesus beam and heals, nothing but jesus beams and heals.

But NBs can now cloak without any efficient counter. Roll NB!

So breton of altmer NB? I need to make a new alt and start working on it now.

Altmer man, altmer all the way.

Septimus_Magna · July 2015

timidobserver wrote: »

The only shield in the game that is overperforming is the Sorc one. They should just nerf that instead of all of them.

Yeah, sorcs can use great buffs, reflect, self-heals, cloak and all kinds of other spell to mitigate damage. Oh wait, sorcs only have hardened ward. What else can a sorc do against 10k wrecking blows and 20k snipes?

Septimus_Magna · July 2015

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Well IF it is true that detect potions will not work vs cloak, then fighting NBs will be a new level of "frustrating"

Describe fight please, because I dont think we will be able to hit any decent NB after this.

Bromburak · July 2015

Cinbri wrote: »

ZOS decided to fix broken/OP mechanics and people started to complain.

Deciding and implementing is a huge difference.

It has nothing todo with liking or not liking a change , its the way how they deal with it as professionals. They have decided to drop Vet levels too , it has been communicated and now something else is implemented.

From a business perspective its the worst that can happen when more customers have the impression that a company is not trustworthy any longer.

Empty promises are a common problem in the whole gaming industry because marketing and revenue doesn't care of communities or a player base. This is a sad fact but the reality.

You can trust in decisions and announcements or implementations, your choice ...

Leandor · July 2015

Maybe it's worth trying to change their minds.

Reduce healing by 50%
Reduce damage by 25%
Increase the health-buff, instead of gaining 4k, gain 15k on entering Cyrodiil
Reduce Shields by 50% (you get more free health, so don't you dare)

Dalglish · July 2015

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Wow kinda sad how so many think sorcs are dead just cause bolt escape got nerf. Maybe you can try to stand your ground and actually fight the person instead of running away like cowards just cause you took a single hit. Just saying kidna the point of PvP is to fight and die.

Also tanking is not dead just cause you can't stamina regen while blocking cause you do not need to relie that heavyly on blocking to tank. If you do relie that heavy on blocking you are not a tank you are just some guy hiding behind a shield thinking you're a tank.

Every single point you just made, baffles me beyond belief.

MisterBigglesworth · July 2015

Don't worry, I wrote you guys a new script to follow

Do While Number_of_enemies >= 2 {
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Daedric_Minefield()
	Dark_Conversion()
}

Teargrants · July 2015

Dalglish wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Wow kinda sad how so many think sorcs are dead just cause bolt escape got nerf. Maybe you can try to stand your ground and actually fight the person instead of running away like cowards just cause you took a single hit. Just saying kidna the point of PvP is to fight and die.

Also tanking is not dead just cause you can't stamina regen while blocking cause you do not need to relie that heavyly on blocking to tank. If you do relie that heavy on blocking you are not a tank you are just some guy hiding behind a shield thinking you're a tank.

Every single point you just made, baffles me beyond belief.

Some people just can't be reasoned with, that is one such example. Guess I just have to stand my ground and spam healing wards while waiting for mutagen dot ticks, just like Eric Wrobel suggested. Would like to know how to 'properly' tank without relying on blocking though.

Teargrants · July 2015

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »
Don't worry, I wrote you guys a new script to follow
Do While Number_of_enemies >= 2 {
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Bolt_Escape()
	Daedric_Minefield()
	Dark_Conversion()
}

Yeah, thanks, no thanks. I prefer not to commit suicide by draining all my stam and setting myself up for unbreakable Ambush -> Fear -> burst by the NB chasing me.

BrassRazoo · July 2015

Game is just a zergfest anyway, no matter what changes are made sheer numbers will still win the game.

ToRelax · July 2015

Derra wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m going to say it: Sorc will end up buffed when this goes live. No more permaroll, no more permablock. Everything solo or small scale related is going to be sorc or NB. One of which you can´t catch (still) and one you can´t see (finally?).

Edit: Only thing i´m afraid of is that they don´t put an end to unlimited resource pools and without the ability to instantly kill ppl out of bigger grps small grps or solo players won´t be able to kill anything at all once a healer enters the pit.

That's my biggest concern, too.
I surely won't be easy to kill just because Bolt Escape will be nerfed.
I'll get vamp with it's now extremely low penalty and use Mistform in between Bolt Escapes.
My Healing Wards will now actually show their full potential when they still heal me full.
But how am I supposed to kill anyone when now everyone is "running nirnhoned"...

Roselle · July 2015

Good.

Erondil · July 2015

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breaks as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. I mean... imagine if BE dont tp you 80% of the time if youre chased by 5+ ppl... or if rolldodge doesnt make miss anything 80% of the time... and then you spam it and the cost keep going up?

Leandor · July 2015

Erondil wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breals as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. Which is kinda bs lol

Stop this. Cloak does not get you away from the fight. It can't in any way be compared to BE. With the dodge change, a stamina NB has no possibility of defense outside of cloak. If cloak gets the BE treatment, the class is dead. Only alternative: Make Dark Cloak a stamina morph (yes, the one removing DoTs, otherwise, no deal).

Bromburak · July 2015

BrassRazoo wrote: »

Game is just a zergfest anyway, no matter what changes are made sheer numbers will still win the game.

Cyrodiil is big enough if you join a zerg please don't complain.