Bolt Escape / Dodge / Blocking / Shields Nerf

Sotha_Sil

Players say "nerf infinite dodge rolling" -> they increase stamina cost of dodge roll
Players say "nerf infinite BE" -> they increase cost of BE
Players say "TTK in Cyrodiil sucks" -> they decrease damage by 50% then need to nerf healing & shields because or zergs.

So they basically made reasonable changes people requested to balance the game everyone wanted. The thing is, the consequences linked to these changes impact some classes/builds more than others. But no one thought of the consequences of course and the players surely didn't when they asked. So don't blame ZOS for this.

Maulkin

Germtrocity wrote: »

Can we just revert to 1.5 and call it a day? It is obvious they don't really have a grasp on what they are doing.

Yes please

Let's setup a crowdfunding page to buy ZOS' 1.5 build and go from there. @ZOS_BrianWheeler, name your price

Leandor

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Players say "nerf infinite dodge rolling" -> they increase stamina cost of dodge roll
Players say "nerf infinite BE" -> they increase cost of BE
Players say "TTK in Cyrodiil sucks" -> they decrease damage by 50% then need to nerf healing & shields because or zergs.

So they basically made reasonable changes people requested to balance the game everyone wanted. The thing is, the consequences linked to these changes impact some classes/builds more than others. But no one thought of the consequences of course and the players surely didn't when they asked. So don't blame ZOS for this.

Quoted for truth. But please admit that ZOS went at it with a little too much enthusiasm. Stepwise approach would have been much more appreciated.

DezIsDead

Idgaf about the bolt escape nerf. I'll just save the skill point and use elusive mist now. Only thing I'm nervous/excited about is how bad Shields really are impacted. Because Sheilds combined with streak would get me out of melee range. No can do if remove the ability. Not gonna freak like some people, just waiting to actually try hands on before I judge

ThyIronFist

As a DK I don't think this Sorc nerf is justiciable. Bolt Escape is their version of dragon blood so to speak. The hell they're nerfing it for the, what is it now, 3rd time?

Also, I don't understand how people can be excited about this patch. I'll believe the higher TTK when I see it. After a year and a half of listening to ZOS I find it hard to take anything serious.

Shall I remind you of what happened every other time ZOS released a patch? You think, oh, maybe something is going to change now, surely it'll get much better... can't get any worse right? Surely they'll do something about the ridiculously low TTK and the balance issues, the lag and poor performance...

umagon

The whole reason things are out of balance is due to the resource pools being nearly unlimited coupled with the imbalanced ratios dealing with output vs resource cost. Their proposed solutions are more band-aids than an actual fix. Things like burst damage are fine but it should come at a high resource cost not what we have now were people can spam things like wrecking blow for around 1.2k stam, with no cool down and 1.5-2k+ stam regeneration.

For even some healing related things the same imbalance exists, for example vigor low cost high return over many targets no cool down and little to counter it. The correct way of fixing this would just to rebalanced each skill on a case by case basis and create new morphs for skills. So for example people can have more of a choice if they want to be burst that deals a lot of damage in one blow (high resource cost or cool down) or burst that deals a lot of damage with many attacks (no cool down medium cost).

In both cases ratio should be close to 1:1 so for example yes some could hit a player for 10k damage but it cost them about 10k stam or magicka to do it. Or they could pick a morph that deals less damage but has a lower cost however it can used more given the same resource pool.

The blanket band-aid fix makes me wonder if they even tried using things like swallow soul, and if what is posted is true it would make it go from next to useless to completely useless.

izjiz

DDuke wrote: »

No instagibbing (damage taken reduced)

You believe this shall stop me from gibbing the pugs of cyrodil? You have been mistaken.

Bromburak

Its funny when everyone talks about balancing while playing a game with superman hybrid mechanics.
At least you should be honest and say "Yes, i love playing solo without support from any other player synergies and i want to survive or kill a whole zerg if its necessary". Hilarious.

Soulac

Yes, i love playing solo without support from any other player synergies and i want to survive or kill a whole zerg if its necessary

MoeCoastie

Im really surprised that this has only reached 8 pages. I guess there is still hope for this community. These are just some observations from me reading this thread:

"does this encourage zerging?" what they are really saying is "is it still easy to solo or do I need to group up for easymode again?"

this is about the 3rd or 4th time sorcs are supposed to be dead and nerfed to uselessness but its obvious those extreme predictions were false.

having lurked these boards for quite a while I see ZOS adjusting almost everything that has been complained about for the last few months and yet people who complain will complain.

Ultimately, I blame Mel Kiper.

pjwb16_ESO

Yes, i love playing solo without support from any other player synergies and i want to survive or kill a whole zerg if its necessary

#bringbackgroundoils
#standartofmight200ulti
#revertultigainchanges

satisfied?

Docmandu

Is the roll dodge cost also stacking?! I thought it was going to be like the first bolt escape nerf, ie. non stacking 33% cost increase (but without the halt to regen like BE). Either way it is offset a bit by the access to stam regen mundus.

Bromburak

Oh, i am. The question is if you really are. I doubt it.

Leandor

As far as I understood the summaries on these forums, it is supposed to be stacking, i.e. each dodge is 33% more costly than the one before if performed within a specific time frame. 100 -> 133 -> 177 -> 236 -> 314 etc.

I still like the idea more to make the cost a percentage of maximum stamina instead. If you want perma-dodge you need to have minimum stamina and maximum regeneration (which means reduced damage, dodging has now an opportunity cost). Non-stamina builds have the lowest cost and can still use it. If you make the cost to be around 20% as baseline (reductions still apply), dodge becomes a tool instead of a way of living.

Juraigr

BRogueNZ wrote: »

Phoenix99 wrote: »

Bromburak wrote: »

Forestd16b14_ESO wrote: »

Wow kinda sad how so many think sorcs are dead just cause bolt escape got nerf.

Clone habits ...

Because bad players rely on broken mechanics and their superior grind. If the playing ground gets leveled up, they are just getting proven to be nothing more than scrubs.

Couldn't agree more. Chance for people to put their money where their mouth is.

Yeah but I bet your one of the people who think 1.5 was worse cos you wouldn't adapt and still couldn't kill a dk

Docmandu

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Players say "nerf infinite dodge rolling" -> they increase stamina cost of dodge roll
Players say "nerf infinite BE" -> they increase cost of BE

I think both "fixes" are not very creative.. why not try other things, like giving you a damage debuff, or giving you an armor/spell resist debuff, or a snare, or prevent you from stealthing for 2 minutes, or a DPS debuff, or ...

The problem with these fixes is that either the spell is totally useless (good luck "escaping" with 2 BEs) or is still OP (current BE fix). Adding some other effects to discourage the perma use of the skill would be a better path to try fixing the issue imho.

Francescolg

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Also they are making spectral bow easier to use.
I'm just going to leave this here...


Don't nerf me pl0xxx. hehe.

Does it work vs 1 or X targets?
Can I use this with - let's say - 3 NB friends in a party of 4 NBs from stealth?

Soris

umagon wrote: »

The whole reason things are out of balance is due to the resource pools being nearly unlimited coupled with the imbalanced ratios dealing with output vs resource cost. Their proposed solutions are more band-aids than an actual fix. Things like burst damage are fine but it should come at a high resource cost not what we have now were people can spam things like wrecking blow for around 1.2k stam, with no cool down and 1.5-2k+ stam regeneration.

For even some healing related things the same imbalance exists, for example vigor low cost high return over many targets no cool down and little to counter it. The correct way of fixing this would just to rebalanced each skill on a case by case basis and create new morphs for skills. So for example people can have more of a choice if they want to be burst that deals a lot of damage in one blow (high resource cost or cool down) or burst that deals a lot of damage with many attacks (no cool down medium cost).

In both cases ratio should be close to 1:1 so for example yes some could hit a player for 10k damage but it cost them about 10k stam or magicka to do it. Or they could pick a morph that deals less damage but has a lower cost however it can used more given the same resource pool.

The blanket band-aid fix makes me wonder if they even tried using things like swallow soul, and if what is posted is true it would make it go from next to useless to completely useless.

Well said. This may be the best post ive seen here so far.

DDuke

Francescolg wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Also they are making spectral bow easier to use.
I'm just going to leave this here...


Don't nerf me pl0xxx. hehe.

Does it work vs 1 or X targets?
Can I use this with - let's say - 3 NB friends in a party of 4 NBs from stealth?

20 Seconds, 7 Light/Heavy Attacks (4 after patch).

If you find time to land those and go into stealth and fire off the bow, I'll be impressed.

It sure isn't feasible to use even out of stealth in current meta, but maybe this change to 4 Light/Heavy Attack requirement will change things.

Oh, and to answer your question: it's a buff you apply to yourself and after you land those light attacks (on any target) it becomes a strong burst ability (deals more dmg than most ultimates) that you can fire.

IxSTALKERxI

Francescolg wrote: »

IxSTALKERxI wrote: »

Also they are making spectral bow easier to use.
I'm just going to leave this here...


Don't nerf me pl0xxx. hehe.

Does it work vs 1 or X targets?
Can I use this with - let's say - 3 NB friends in a party of 4 NBs from stealth?

It's a single target ranged ability. I believe it's the highest damaging ability in the game, higher than prox det. It can't really be used from 'stealth' as it requires light or heavy attacks within a 20 second period before you can use it. It can be used while invisible though of course which is what I did to get the tooltip so high. Shadowy disguise for guaranteed crit + buffs including agressive warhorn for 30% crit damage you can crit someone for 40k (someone with low resistances and low CP, also damage in pvp will be nerfed so it won't be hitting as hard). Once the requirement is lowered to 4 light attacks, nirn is nerfed, and magicka nb's gain more survivability, I'm sure this ability will become more viable in PvP rather then just being used in PvE rotations. I've been trying to troll people with it lately but people always seem to enjoy focusing me which makes it really hard to pull off. It's not really something you would need a group of nightblades to use, if you had a group you would be better off just using regular Nb abilities.

RinaldoGandolphi

The issues in the game were with the lack of softcaps on damage, resource pools, etc...and all the changes they are bringing forth don't address that, they are instead non-sensical nerfs to the Sorc class, to Tank Specs, and others that simply don't make sense and won't address the core issues.

Blackwater Blade will still be the best campaign come 1.7.

Etaniel

Dragon blood is going to become even more s*** after this patch x) The overall dmg nerf is completely stupid. Some builds were already lacking dps compared to the glass cannons, now they are going to be uterly useless. But at the same time nerfing this or that particular ability has effects on PvE, and we all know the PvE player base outweighs the PvP player base by a f**kton, so they don't want to *** off their main customer base.
Im' just gonna wait for the complete patch notes, try it out and then I'll start whining

Bromburak

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

The issues in the game were with the lack of softcaps on damage, resource pools, etc...and all the changes they are bringing forth don't address that, they are instead non-sensical nerfs to the Sorc class, to Tank Specs, and others that simply don't make sense and won't address the core issues.

Many core issues have been adressed , the issues that many players have are their own expecations and bad habits as a hybrid.

If you want to play a top peak burst DD NB and spam dodge at the same time you shouldn't.
If you want to play a top peak burst DD Sorc and spam shields like a mother ship and use warp to disappear you shouldn't.

Why? Because doing insane damage without sacrificing defence and survival is simply a bad design for any role in PvP.

Why they don't differ between PvE and PvP is a different discussion.

Domander

I'd like to add that the damage reduction is already 20%, so it will be 30% less damage than live.

Healing/shields is currently 15% reduction.. so it's getting hit a bit harder than damage.

I kind of wish block would increase in cost instead of shut down stam regen, I think it would be a bit more elegent. There's probably reasons they didn't go with that though..

I'm ok with it.

Erondil

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breals as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. Which is kinda bs lol

Stop this. Cloak does not get you away from the fight. It can't in any way be compared to BE. With the dodge change, a stamina NB has no possibility of defense outside of cloak. If cloak gets the BE treatment, the class is dead. Only alternative: Make Dark Cloak a stamina morph (yes, the one removing DoTs, otherwise, no deal).

Did you read the rest of my post lol?

Lava_Croft

Derra wrote: »

Soulac wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

My only comment on that: Why do they nerf EVERY defensive mechanic available to players but in the same patch take the only counter to cloak and do not add a penalty to repeated use of that?

We should wait for the final patch notes.
Cloak still has their counters like AoE, Mage light, potions (don't remember that they gonna change it (?)) and mark.
I rely on AoE only, not having any problems with cloaking NBs.

Not saying its fine, but its the only real defensive ability of NBs and I think we should be able to rely on it, like you can rely on your shields, mostly at least.

Well steel-tornado is not in the same ballpark with any other aoe in the game (if i had access to a 12m range instant aoe i would not have problems aswell). Cloak is already insanely strong against ranged builds. Try fighting a magica nb that can spam cloak with a magica based ranged build. I can garantuee you´re going to shatter your mouse and keyboard.
Streak with this patch is also no longer an option (where you already had to leave your comfort zone bc ranged build) - what are you going to to? Run towards where you THINK they are - spamming Impuls screaming: WAAAARRHHHHH!!!

Also calling cloak the only defensive mechanism is a bit of an understatement when looking at shade isn´t it?

Try fighting a Ball of Lightning spammer user with a ranged Magicka Nightblade build!

Leandor

Erondil wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breals as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. Which is kinda bs lol

Stop this. Cloak does not get you away from the fight. It can't in any way be compared to BE. With the dodge change, a stamina NB has no possibility of defense outside of cloak. If cloak gets the BE treatment, the class is dead. Only alternative: Make Dark Cloak a stamina morph (yes, the one removing DoTs, otherwise, no deal).

Did you read the rest of my post lol?

Was more in reply to @Erock25 but still even with your "but" I am still opposed to the BE treatment for cloak.

Lava_Croft

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breals as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. Which is kinda bs lol

Stop this. Cloak does not get you away from the fight. It can't in any way be compared to BE. With the dodge change, a stamina NB has no possibility of defense outside of cloak. If cloak gets the BE treatment, the class is dead. Only alternative: Make Dark Cloak a stamina morph (yes, the one removing DoTs, otherwise, no deal).

Did you read the rest of my post lol?

Was more in reply to @Erock25 but still even with your "but" I am still opposed to the BE treatment for cloak.

A cost increase for Cloak wouldn't bother any real Nightblades.

Yuke

Ok after sleeping a night over this i can somehow live with the changes, BUT plz ZoS can we have old synergy range and stat regain from partially loaded heavyattacks back?

Leandor

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Leandor wrote: »

Erondil wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

ThatHappyCat wrote: »

I love the amount of tunnel vision that's in this thread. People read "-50% shield strength" and scream "SORC NERF OMG" without reading "-50% to ALL damage" which pretty much balances it out.

Seriously, are whiners even trying anymore?

Shields will take exactly as much damage as they do now which sounds good to me. If they really want to remove the escape portion of Bolt Escape, they should at least set it to 33% penalty. That way, three consecutive Bolt Escapes will be the same cost as three consecutive Bolt Escapes now, but when you start hitting 4, 5, 6+ is when your magicka will really get hit hard. Cloak MUST get the same treatment though. Countering Cloak with AOE isn't an option with the pitiful radius of magicka AOE in this game. Radiant Magelight radius is too small and Revealing Flare is a joke. Without Detect Pots working on Cloak, it is basically a 100% fight reset.

I agree cloak should get the same treatment but only when the cloak doesnt break for 2 sec or so. Because atm it often breals as soon as you use it, so you have to spam it to get one that works. If you spam it with the cost increase mechanic you will be oom before you got one cloak that works. Which is kinda bs lol

Stop this. Cloak does not get you away from the fight. It can't in any way be compared to BE. With the dodge change, a stamina NB has no possibility of defense outside of cloak. If cloak gets the BE treatment, the class is dead. Only alternative: Make Dark Cloak a stamina morph (yes, the one removing DoTs, otherwise, no deal).

Did you read the rest of my post lol?

Was more in reply to @Erock25 but still even with your "but" I am still opposed to the BE treatment for cloak.

A cost increase for Cloak wouldn't bother any real Nightblades.