Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Brandalf wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Nowhere in any of those quotes does it say they will never drop the subscription model. All it says is they believed the sub model was the ideal model for their vision of the game. As I stated in my earlier post. All you've done is confirm exactly what @lordrichter @UrQuan and myself have said. Good try though.

As far as the riding lessons coming to the Crown Store go they are pretty much the very definition of "convenience".

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JamilaRaj wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Surely the entire premise of a B2P or F2P game is about selling things that give a player a small convenience for real money over in-game gold?

If they allow you to buy a raised cap for your skills exclusively through the shop, then that is P2W.

Once again, this is just about convenience. Up until ESO:TU we had Imperial mounts for 1g for those with the Imperial edition. So they (we) were already 'miles' ahead in that regard anyway. So, P2W from the start, or is it just one more random string for the supposed prophetic 'anti-cash shop' agenda that seems to be prevalent these days?

Sure, Imperial edition was an advantage bought for money, decidedly P2W element. I went along with it (with it available, not that I gave in completely a bought it too) as long as it was one single and last violation of fair play that would be there, but in a hidsight, we certainly should have bashed ZOS for it until they dropped it, because P2W is like cancer. Wherever it appears, it has to be cut out fast and entirely, or else it will spread.

If it was indeed P2W then i'd agree. But honestly, it's just a leg-up and it was allowed to slide because it wasn't really seen as P2W.

P2W has only reared its head on the forum with any strength since the cash-shop. But P2W isn't defined by a cash-shop, it can be implemented at any time. So what is the real beef here? Is it really with P2W (which is fine to frown upon) or is it with the cash-shop and thus anything outside of costumes going on there is seen as P2W just to further the cause?

Of course it's not defined by cash shop. If you have e.g. superior gear/loot in DLC zones, then players buying access to these zones are buying advantages and they are doing it outside of cash shop, which is nevertheless more common and well-known vehicle for P2W and as such more likely to trigger backlash.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

theweakminded wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

theweakminded wrote: »

Cuyler wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

THIS^

Uh what? Pay to win is getting something more than someone else can. This is basically saying everything is pay to win if it saves time? So they can add nothing and make no money. Good logic.

Or, you know, they could stick to what they original said and just fill the shop with cosmetics. Mounts, costumes, etc.

There's no shortage of money to be made there I'm sure.

There is enough a shortage for them to look at things and decide to fix it. While I would prefer this handled differently, I think it is a good way to both make money and speed things up.
Note, they also spoke of adding convenience items. Saving time=convince. Mounts are a time sink (the gold is barely anything over a 6month period). There is a max and there is no direct combat bonus to mounts (time taken to travel, even in Cyrodiil is not a direct combat benefit).

Attorneyatlawl wrote:

"I got to the keep siege before it ended and got to fight people, and earn lots of alliance points! Your 5% speed mount was so slow that my 60% one got me there in nearly half the time and I enjoyed the battle while you rode slowly along the road hoping to make it in time. I win!"

We could also go with "You got attacked and knocked off your horse by one guy while another tried to hit me but I already bought my mount stamina training and just ran away to get to the fight. You got killed because you were stunned off your horse."

Nifty2g wrote: »

It's a horse people, a horse. get over it

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As with anything that's datamined, the content is still in development and subject to change. That said, we do indeed intend to release Riding Lessons to the Crown Store in the future. This will allow you to increase your riding stats (speed, stamina, and capacity) at a faster rate through crowns, though you will not be able to attain more than the maximum 60 points per skill. We are still finalizing the rest of the details, and appreciate your continued feedback!

Fruitmass wrote: »

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

As with anything that's datamined, the content is still in development and subject to change. That said, we do indeed intend to release Riding Lessons to the Crown Store in the future. This will allow you to increase your riding stats (speed, stamina, and capacity) at a faster rate through crowns, though you will not be able to attain more than the maximum 60 points per skill. We are still finalizing the rest of the details, and appreciate your continued feedback!

As honest feedback I ask that you please, please, please stop monetizing aspects of this game. The effort spent creating merchandise for the Crown store would be better spent working to improve on features already in the game. If the time it takes to train mounts is genuinely considered too restrictive by the majority or the player base then the answer isn't Crown store boosters but improvements the system itself.

When the community begged for improvements to Provisioning you guys came through and gave us a full revision. When we asked that Werewolves be improved you gave us all new skills, longer duration and better damage scaling. When the cry went out for improvements to Two-Handed weapons you did more than make it viable you actually made it fun. When bots were running amuck and driving us all off the deep end you guys logged into the game and did your best to clear some of them out. Maybe it didn't have a huge impact in stopping them, (what ever really does?) but it bought us a few precious moments of peace now and again and gave the impression that you did care about the problem.

You've got it in you to do great things, the potential is definitely there. I'm not going to lie and say it's been all roses and sunshine. There have been missteps, (and more than a few WTF were they thinking moments ) and there's still a lot that needs to be improved upon. It's just that Cash shop short cuts aren't what's needed to make this game good.

What we need is to have so many of the half finished features fully fleshed out. We need content that makes Tamriel feel less static. We need that weird little something that makes you spend all day doing nothing and still come away feeling like you accomplished something.

Things like XP potions, respect scrolls, horse boosters they're band aids. They do nothing to fix the true underlying problems. What's more by promoting them (and boy howdy do you promote them, pretty much splashed all over the main page and launcher. Not to mention you've given us two in-game ads so far, tut tut ) it makes it look as though your more interested in your bottom line than anything else. That's very a troubling thing and doesn't do much to instill much faith in the future of this game.

I could see reasons for dropping the sub. After all you can't expect console players to pay a sub for Xbox Gold or PSN Network and a sub for ESO. You damn sure can't expects Sony or Microsoft to wave their network fees. And you certainly can't expect PC players to continue paying a sub when console players don't. It's platform politics (There's more to it probably but that's at least a good enough cover story, lol)

Honestly it's not even really the cash shop that draws so much ire. It's what's getting put in there that's causing so much concern. I could forgive a cash shop if it only supplied things like costumes, pets, mounts (skins not stats, no uber horse please), name changes, character makeovers, faction changes, character slots. All these things are fine. It's when you start putting convenience items in there that things get dicey. Regardless of whether it's overtly p2w or simply questionable anything that circumvents/detours/negates or replaces an already existing feature of the game is simply a kick in the face to those of us who have been playing and supporting this game to this point.

Not because it detracts from our sense of pride. Not because it mean we can't claim special status. Not because we feel like we're owed something. It's because we sat through the bugs, the bots, the nerfs, the buffs, the lag, the botched patch releases, the freak roll backs, the disappearing bank items, the exploits, and all those other unforgettable whoopsies of the past thirteen or so months. Many have done their best to provide helpful feedback to catch the issues and help improve the overall quality of the game. There are many who've gone above and beyond to help their fellow players with technical issues. We care for the game, we care for the community. Through everything that went wrong we still payed our subs, not to lord it over somebody (well maybe some did folks are funny like that) but because we wanted to support this game. We wanted to see it turn into something really worth it. We wanted to believe that the sub fees were going to count for something. What we were paying for was a promise that though there would be mistakes from time to time the game, was going to get better.

Sadly it's looking like that isn't going to happen. So much has been left unfinished or forgotten that it's disheartening. Truthfully, the push for the cash shop makes it look like the game is dying and your trying to make a cash grab to scoop up what profits you can while you can. And that's a really, really depressing thought.


Good god this is more of a rant then I intended. Still, this is my honest and sincere feed back take it for what you will

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

If people keep letting the bar slip - we'll just end up spilling all the booze.

Enodoc wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

And that's true. But you say yourself, at that time. The point here is that nowhere in your bolded part does it say they would never change it in the future, just that subscription model being the right model was the state of affairs at the time when they said it.

daemonios wrote: »

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

And that is why these items must have some sort of cooldown. I don't mind if it's not 20 hours, but it needs to be at least 8.

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

No, screw "cosmetic and convenience" nonsense. I have no pitty for ZOS' bad marketing decisions, if they are in a bad position now because nobody wants to pay them for their game, that's their own fault. If they actually want my money, they should release the content they have been promising for nearly a year now.
I'd gladly pay for Murkmire and Wrothgar DLC, but I won't buy crap that will ruin this game just to support their bad decisions.

I do hear you about the content and I absolutely agree. But perhaps it's time to accept that this is where we are now and support the game regardless of the suits' (aggravating but at the same time possibly game-saving) decisions with the view to the game becoming richer in content in the future.