[Data Mining] New Crown Store Items from 2.0.8

Emma_Overload

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

Emma_Overload

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

LOL, if it DIDN'T circumvent the daily cooldown, it would be totally pointless!

Sallington

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

Sylvyr

UrQuan wrote: »

Sylvyr wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

And that's true. But you say yourself, at that time. The point here is that nowhere in your bolded part does it say they would never change it in the future, just that subscription model being the right model was the state of affairs at the time when they said it.

daemonios wrote: »

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

And that is why these items must have some sort of cooldown. I don't mind if it's not 20 hours, but it needs to be at least 8.

About this "at that time" stuff....

OK let's say no one, including Matt Firor ever said it will always be that way. No one in their right mind in business will EVER say that. Things do change. Companies adapt to change. Any company that says it will never change would be one to avoid.

Having said that, how a company changes, why they change, is relative to:
What they set out to do
How far the adaptation strays from what they set out to do - does it align with the goals well or not?

Exampe: Goodoods Inc. A company that emphasizes being green and socially responsible runs into financial hardship. In order to save money, they decide the dump toxic byproducts into a river rather than the more expensive route of detoxifying them properly. They adapted, but that adaption goes against the fiber of what they set out to be and do.

Hopefully we can stop arguing about the wordage and get to the guts of it?

That's not a good example. A more fitting example would be something like this:

Example: Goodoods Inc. A company that emphasizes being green and socially responsible, but which has specifically said that they don't have any problem with a business model that includes ruining the environment or not being socially responsible, runs into financial hardship. In order to save money, they decide the dump toxic byproducts into a river rather than the more expensive route of detoxifying them properly. They adapted to a business model that they didn't previously think was right for them, but that they had also previously said was valid and proven.

Thank you for pointing that out. They did mention that it was a valid proven model, for some games but not the best fit for ESO for x y and z reasons.

Just like the example above, dumping toxic waste into the river is a valid method but not a fit for the ideals and core of Goodoods Inc. Just because they at some point stated that it was a valid method out there does not give them free and clear take backsies or make it ok. Certainly they can do what they want but there can and likely will be repercussions for doing so.

It would be very odd for the people that do business with them looking for the level of quality/care that was a selling point to just shrug and say oh well they can do what they want and keep doing business as usual.

Now it is possible you guys are criticizing someone for say they promised this or that and are harping on them for using that kind of 100% kind of language. I think that is just splitting hairs.

There is no 100% in life, even in science or whatever, just because the sun keeps coming up the next day it's not proof that it'll come up tomorrow but people will use the word proof there all the time.

ZoS made a relatively strong statement regarding the direction of the product, the ideas and values behind it regarding their payment model, and why, in that it would provide a quality yadda yadda product and that we wouldn't have to deal with the woes of monetization in the experience of using the product.

They didn't promise anything 100% I can totally agree with that.

But here we are, with a game lacking quality and monetization creeping in. I'm not going to argue about promise this or promise that, but their adaptation and change and direction, IMHO, has problems and is a significant deviation from the vision and selling points of the game and would like to, like others, voice it.

Emma_Overload

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

jkemmery

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It's a little bit premature at this point to speculate on the effects and costs, but the way I see it is this: I have commitments in my life such as a full-time job and family that I take care of. Why can't I pay a little extra money out of my pocket in order to somewhat mitigate the fact that I can't spent 8-10 hours per day playing the game (and I know for a fact that many of you do in fact spend that much time playing, and some even more.) so that I can remain competitive with the person who has no real responsibilities and maybe a part-time job? I'm happy and willing to spend a little bit over and above the $15/month sub fee to have extra things in the game when I do have the time to play, so that while I am playing I can spend the time doing what I enjoy which is questing and lately PvP in Cyrodiil, and not spend my time in game farming resources, etc ...

I know some people might take exception to this, and I understand that, but for me, it's a win-win, and will keep me playing the game as opposed to doing something else with the limited free time that I have.

UrQuan

Sylvyr wrote: »

Thank you for pointing that out. They did mention that it was a valid proven model, for some games but not the best fit for ESO for x y and z reasons.

Just like the example above, dumping toxic waste into the river is a valid method but not a fit for the ideals and core of Goodoods Inc. Just because they at some point stated that it was a valid method out there does not give them free and clear take backsies or make it ok. Certainly they can do what they want but there can and likely will be repercussions for doing so.

Oh I totally agree with that. The move from subscription to B2P irritated me for exactly that reason. Having said that, so far I think they've handled it well, and I don't feel like the switch has had a negative impact on the game for me. Whether I continue to feel that way depends on what things are and aren't added to the crown store over the coming months.

Sylvyr wrote: »

Now it is possible you guys are criticizing someone for say they promised this or that and are harping on them for using that kind of 100% kind of language. I think that is just splitting hairs.

This I very much disagree with. The people like @PKMN12 saying "they said they would never do this, under any circumstances" are just spreading lies, pure and simple. I take issue with that.

That's why I challenge them on it. If you're going to claim they said that, then prove it . If you can prove it, fine, I'll admit you were right. If you can't, then man up and admit you had no cause to spread such misinformation. Oh, and in all cases in this paragraph, I'm using "you" in the general sense - I'm not directing this at you @Sylvyr - I haven't seen you make any such claims

Sallington

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

ESO shouldn't survive in my opinion. Catering to the console crowd and F2P cash stores are two of my biggest pet peeves in gaming, and why I stopped playing a while ago.

IF they would have stayed true to their word and kept the subscription model, the game would be much better off. Now, in order to stay afloat they need to focus their time and resources on making the cash shop profitable instead of focusing on making new content. And all new content includes time spent on "how can we create incentive to use the cash store through this content?"

Attorneyatlawl

UrQuan wrote: »

Sylvyr wrote: »

Enodoc wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

And that's true. But you say yourself, at that time. The point here is that nowhere in your bolded part does it say they would never change it in the future, just that subscription model being the right model was the state of affairs at the time when they said it.

daemonios wrote: »

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

And that is why these items must have some sort of cooldown. I don't mind if it's not 20 hours, but it needs to be at least 8.

About this "at that time" stuff....

OK let's say no one, including Matt Firor ever said it will always be that way. No one in their right mind in business will EVER say that. Things do change. Companies adapt to change. Any company that says it will never change would be one to avoid.

Having said that, how a company changes, why they change, is relative to:
What they set out to do
How far the adaptation strays from what they set out to do - does it align with the goals well or not?

Exampe: Goodoods Inc. A company that emphasizes being green and socially responsible runs into financial hardship. In order to save money, they decide the dump toxic byproducts into a river rather than the more expensive route of detoxifying them properly. They adapted, but that adaption goes against the fiber of what they set out to be and do.

Hopefully we can stop arguing about the wordage and get to the guts of it?

That's not a good example. A more fitting example would be something like this:

Example: Goodoods Inc. A company that emphasizes being green and socially responsible, but which has specifically said that they don't have any problem with a business model that includes ruining the environment or not being socially responsible, runs into financial hardship. In order to save money, they decide the dump toxic byproducts into a river rather than the more expensive route of detoxifying them properly. They adapted to a business model that they didn't previously think was right for them, but that they had also previously said was valid and proven.

Except they actually stated that they do have a problem with it, themselves, and damaging the environment or integrity of the product and "land" (game world) area was against their core values and the product they wished to sell would suffer for it. Analogy only, of course, and not a comment about ZOS and just to correct your analogy.


@Urquan, the ToS snippet you quoted is standard legalese to help protect against lawsuits. It has nothing to do with what was marketed or said to be their intended monetization model . As mentioned before... it's hardly something that never happens or isn't right, to change your business model for profitability as a corporation. No one here has a problem with it, and if they do, that's not reasonable in the slightest. However, selling "pay to progress" or "pay for power" shortcuts which are unobtainable in-game at the same rate, is something that most people don't want to see offered on the cash shop/Crown Store . What people do generally want to see is continued development of the game, not for things to be tweaked to take much longer periods of time and be sold a way to skip or expedite it such as mount training or veteran leveling by questing/poi's/pvp/etc. Sell us some new zones, minigames, hordes of costumes and fluff consumables like fireworks or campfires, and release extra stuff to do at a reasonable pace, and we'll buy crowns as fast as they can make things to buy .

Attorneyatlawl

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

I think new zones and things that are fun, would be much more useful than allowing people to pay to skip game content. *shrug*

daemonios

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

No, screw "cosmetic and convenience" nonsense. I have no pitty for ZOS' bad marketing decisions, if they are in a bad position now because nobody wants to pay them for their game, that's their own fault. If they actually want my money, they should release the content they have been promising for nearly a year now.
I'd gladly pay for Murkmire and Wrothgar DLC, but I won't buy crap that will ruin this game just to support their bad decisions.

I do hear you about the content and I absolutely agree. But perhaps it's time to accept that this is where we are now and support the game regardless of the suits' (aggravating but at the same time possibly game-saving) decisions with the view to the game becoming richer in content in the future.

Support the game even more than I do now? I've been a subscriber since early access and keep paying for the game. I believe this is the correct model. If I feel I'm lagging behind because I won't spend *more* in the cash shop than what I get for my sub, I'll happily leave the game.

Elsonso

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

Yes.

Firor made a statement about them not changing the game and then charging Crowns. The following statement was made on February 12, prior to the horse changes in 1.6:

The Road Ahead - February wrote:

We're adding customization and convenience items in the Crown Store, but those will be added to the game as it is now; we're not going to make it harder for you to enjoy the game you already play to encourage you to use the Crown Store.

In light of the Crown training, and now that 1.6 has changed the game so that it takes longer, I think it is time to change horse riding training for gold so that each of the riding skills can be done every 20 hours.

LtCrunch

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

I think new zones and things that are fun, would be much more useful than allowing people to pay to skip game content. *shrug*

While I agree with the overall sentiment who in their right mind actually considers training their riding skills "content"? It's an inconvenient, slow system that people have asked for a shortcut through for months. Well now they've got one.

Faulgor

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

Sallington

Faulgor wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

uberkull wrote: »

So what's next? Crafting Trait acceleration?

I mean, by the way this reads you are buying points, circumventing the cool down for mount stamina / capacity / speed.

Not sure I'm feelin this Crown Store item.

How is this P2W? All you're doing is speeding up a process that ANY player can easily do.

(Same thing goes for crafting traits, which require ZERO skill or effort, only a tedious wait.)

This would ONLY be P2W if you could buy horse skill in the Crown Store that made you FASTER than anything that can be achieved solely with in-game items and skills.

I've been playing for two months, and you've been playing for 1 day and spend $20.

Your horse is twice as fast and it's twice as hard to knock you off it and you can carry more items in your inventory.

Sounds super fair and balanced.

It IS fair and balanced... pay the $20 same as the other guy, and you're both equal. I've been playing for a year, and my main's horse skill is pretty much leveled up. But what about my alts? Hell, no I don't feel like waiting months for my horse to grow legs again!

You "ZOMG...P2W" guys need to get a grip on reality: the ONLY way ESO is going to survive is if they sell stuff in the Crown Store, and the ONLY reason people are going to buy the stuff is if it actually does something useful!

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

Lirkin

I'm all for selling things like this in the store. I hate things like this having to login each day to level my riding skill.

I think they need to change the skill leveling in game be able to by as many levels to the skills as someone can in the crown store. So in game you can get to the same place as buying it in the crown store. Take out the time sink!

It's not P2W in my opinion.

Sallington

c00lmon wrote: »

I'm all for selling things like this in the store. I hate things like this having to login each day to level my riding skill.

I think they need to change the skill leveling in game be able to by as many levels to the skills as someone can in the crown store. So in game you can get to the same place as buying it in the crown store. Take out the time sink!

It's not P2W in my opinion.

I agree that if they took the 20 hour cooldown out of the game, and just let you pay gold for upgrades at your own pace, this would be way less of an issue. I probably wouldn't have a problem with it.

Flynch

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

WebBull

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

Exactly. They should be targeting the new F2P crowd for crown shop items. ZOS has to make money or none of us will be playing. If it was up to me, 50% faster horse leveling would be part of ESO Plus.

All the P2W claims about horse leveling are completely ridiculous. All you people complaining must have to much time on your hands. Get a job, spend a few bucks, and then your groups wont have to keep waiting for you to catch up.

I shall /waive as I ride by on my speedy horse.......

Sallington

WebBull wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

Exactly. They should be targeting the new F2P crowd for crown shop items. ZOS has to make money or none of us will be playing. If it was up to me, 50% faster horse leveling would be part of ESO Plus.

All the P2W claims about horse leveling are completely ridiculous. All you people complaining must have to much time on your hands. Get a job, spend a few bucks, and then your groups wont have to keep waiting for you to catch up.

I shall /waive as I ride by on my speedy horse.......

That mindset is why this whole BS DLC epidemic is ruining gaming. "Who cares guys, it's just a few bucks. Who care's if it should have just been included in the game to start with. I don't care if they try to nickle and dime me for every little half-assed thing they come up with. Grow up and get a job!"

Some of us recognize the slippery slope that these types of items lead to in F2P cash shops like this. And companies keep getting away with it because people with that mindset freely just keep throwing money at them like they deserve it just for making a game they hyped up, but didn't deliver on.

Aeladiir

Well, I guess that's it. As soon as my sub runs out, I'm probably out. They keep bringing crown store content that NOBODY asked for and don't plan on implementing stuff that people actually want in there.

Sallington

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

There's not one F2P MMO with a cash shop that's worth playing. ESO is turning into just another one of those.

Flynch

Sallington wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

There's not one F2P MMO with a cash shop that's worth playing. ESO is turning into just another one of those.

Well that's opinion from the start, fair enough. But ESO is B2P, and i happen to quite enjoy GW2 which shares common ground.

So now that ESO has gone B2P, you feel that it is suddenly less of a game than it was prior to ESO:TU? Even to the point that you agree it should die because of the conversion? That seems dramatic, considering it's only been B2P for a very short time.

Sallington

Flynch wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

There's not one F2P MMO with a cash shop that's worth playing. ESO is turning into just another one of those.

Well that's opinion from the start, fair enough. But ESO is B2P, and i happen to quite enjoy GW2 which shares common ground.

So now that ESO has gone B2P, you feel that it is suddenly less of a game than it was prior to ESO:TU? Even to the point that you agree it should die because of the conversion? That seems dramatic, considering it's only been B2P for a very short time.

Well, first off, I bought the game for PVP basically, so you can understand my disappointment already. Then, knowing how cash stores turn the focus away from quality content and fixes, coupled with the focus on the console launch... I don't see the aspect of why I bought the game in the first place getting any better.

It's more of an I know where the game is heading than where it is right now. I feel pretty confident about that since they've already gone back on their promises a few times, so I have no trust left in them to make the game what it could have been, which is absolutely amazing.

WebBull

Sallington wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

Exactly. They should be targeting the new F2P crowd for crown shop items. ZOS has to make money or none of us will be playing. If it was up to me, 50% faster horse leveling would be part of ESO Plus.

All the P2W claims about horse leveling are completely ridiculous. All you people complaining must have to much time on your hands. Get a job, spend a few bucks, and then your groups wont have to keep waiting for you to catch up.

I shall /waive as I ride by on my speedy horse.......

That mindset is why this whole BS DLC epidemic is ruining gaming. "Who cares guys, it's just a few bucks. Who care's if it should have just been included in the game to start with. I don't care if they try to nickle and dime me for every little half-assed thing they come up with. Grow up and get a job!"

Some of us recognize the slippery slope that these types of items lead to in F2P cash shops like this. And companies keep getting away with it because people with that mindset freely just keep throwing money at them like they deserve it just for making a game they hyped up, but didn't deliver on.

Nothing is for free so stop expecting it to be. Some of you recognize the slippery slop? If it truly becomes P2W then quit. Whining about horse leveling as P2W isn't going to change anything. Zos needs to make money.

All I see in this thread is F2Playbies whining.

Sallington

WebBull wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

WebBull wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Gyudan wrote: »

Triple the amount of time spent on horse upgrades, then charge players to make it go faster.
I find this quite convenient @ZOS.

It's not like ZOS have any other revenue stream now. If players want ESO to actually survive the next year at least, then they need to start championing convenience and cosmetics in the cash-shop, not vilifying it.

If ZOS were as greedy as some people make out, they'd give the monthly subs ridiculous P2W items as incentive for a balanced income, as well as the cash-shop items. And free players be damned.

Exactly. They should be targeting the new F2P crowd for crown shop items. ZOS has to make money or none of us will be playing. If it was up to me, 50% faster horse leveling would be part of ESO Plus.

All the P2W claims about horse leveling are completely ridiculous. All you people complaining must have to much time on your hands. Get a job, spend a few bucks, and then your groups wont have to keep waiting for you to catch up.

I shall /waive as I ride by on my speedy horse.......

That mindset is why this whole BS DLC epidemic is ruining gaming. "Who cares guys, it's just a few bucks. Who care's if it should have just been included in the game to start with. I don't care if they try to nickle and dime me for every little half-assed thing they come up with. Grow up and get a job!"

Some of us recognize the slippery slope that these types of items lead to in F2P cash shops like this. And companies keep getting away with it because people with that mindset freely just keep throwing money at them like they deserve it just for making a game they hyped up, but didn't deliver on.

Nothing is for free so stop expecting it to be. Some of you recognize the slippery slop? If it truly becomes P2W then quit. Whining about horse leveling as P2W isn't going to change anything. Zos needs to make money.

All I see in this thread is F2Playbies whining.

I expected to pay $15 a month for the life of the game, hundreds/thousands of dollars. I would have never canceled my sub. I didn't expect anything for free.

They made terrible decisions I didn't agree with, so I stopped playing. They lost tons of money from me, and I know I'm not alone.

Jesus, most of the people complaining didn't want this to go F2P/B2P in the first place. ZOS themselves even said specifically that the sub model was the best way for them to deliver on the quality of content they wanted to put out.

JamilaRaj

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

Nah, I like them, because they did get some things right after all, and I wish them the best. Which would be if the game folded, fast, so they could focus on something new somewhere else that would at least have a chance. ESO is lost case, I can not imagine what would have to happen to set the game on track again. Somebody would have to buy ZOS outright, fire upper elechons and even then situation would improve from lost to hopeless.
As a bonus, they would have secure jobs by the time of The Great F2P Crash of 201X, when monetization experts would not be in exactly high demand.

UrQuan

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Except they actually stated that they do have a problem with it, themselves, and damaging the environment or integrity of the product and "land" (game world) area was against their core values and the product they wished to sell would suffer for it. Analogy only, of course, and not a comment about ZOS and just to correct your analogy.

They said (and this is taken right from the quote that you provided):

This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery.

That's not them having a problem with the B2P model - that's them saying it's fine, but it's not what they want for their own product.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

@Urquan, the ToS snippet you quoted is standard legalese to help protect against lawsuits. It has nothing to do with what was marketed or said to be their intended monetization model .

You're getting me mixed up with @lordrichter - I never quoted the ToS, or claimed that it had anything to do with what we were talking about.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

As mentioned before... it's hardly something that never happens or isn't right, to change your business model for profitability as a corporation. No one here has a problem with it, and if they do, that's not reasonable in the slightest.

Not true. @PKMN12 has a problem with it (the part about it not being reasonable in the slightest to have a problem with it is true, however). He has been claiming that they said

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

You were backing him up when I challenged him on that point. You said that the quote you provided showed exactly

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

But I'm starting to think that maybe you didn't read very carefully what I was actually challenging @PKMN12 to prove. I'm starting to think that you don't believe that they ever said that either, and that maybe you thought I was asking him to prove something else entirely. I mean the quotes you provided don't say anything like that, and it doesn't sound like you're trying to argue that they do.

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

However, selling "pay to progress" or "pay for power" shortcuts which are unobtainable in-game at the same rate, is something that most people don't want to see offered on the cash shop/Crown Store . What people do generally want to see is continued development of the game, not for things to be tweaked to take much longer periods of time and be sold a way to skip or expedite it such as mount training or veteran leveling by questing/poi's/pvp/etc. Sell us some new zones, minigames, hordes of costumes and fluff consumables like fireworks or campfires, and release extra stuff to do at a reasonable pace, and we'll buy crowns as fast as they can make things to buy .

And that is most definitely my position on that too. I agree with this paragraph entirely.

I just take issue with people who present things as fact when they are anything but. That's the only reason I got involved in this discussion at all. If someone is going to make such a claim, then back it up with some proof.

Faulgor

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

Of course its a bit dramatic. But I think it would also be in Zenimax' best interest not to tarnish the Elder Scrolls name further if they want to keep using their flagship IP - if that means discontinuing a subpar game, so be it.

Flynch wrote: »

Sallington wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If this is the only way ESO can survive, I say let it die.

A bit dramatic? Or do you genuinely hate the game and the developers so much that any sort of money made by the game is tainted unless it's through a sub?

There's not one F2P MMO with a cash shop that's worth playing. ESO is turning into just another one of those.

Well that's opinion from the start, fair enough. But ESO is B2P, and i happen to quite enjoy GW2 which shares common ground.

So now that ESO has gone B2P, you feel that it is suddenly less of a game than it was prior to ESO:TU? Even to the point that you agree it should die because of the conversion? That seems dramatic, considering it's only been B2P for a very short time.

Yes, absolutely, and so does ZOS for that matter. Just look for the quotes from Matt Firor in this thread, he was very clear that anything but a subscription model would compromise the quality of the game, which they were not willing to do.

domenthechief wrote: »

Well, I guess that's it. As soon as my sub runs out, I'm probably out. They keep bringing crown store content that NOBODY asked for and don't plan on implementing stuff that people actually want in there.

That's really another sad thing: If they had added name changes, race changes, faction changes, character slots, etc. - things people ask for all the time and have been mentioned by ZOS as potential services in the store since before release - they could have made a guarload of money by now ...

UrQuan

domenthechief wrote: »

Well, I guess that's it. As soon as my sub runs out, I'm probably out. They keep bringing crown store content that NOBODY asked for and don't plan on implementing stuff that people actually want in there.

I've seen people ask for this. In fact, I'd be very surprised if anything that they have added is something that hasn't been asked for somewhere on the forums (in some cases as in "we want more costumes" or "we want more mounts" rather than "we want a wedding dress costume" or "we want a nightmare mount").