[Data Mining] New Crown Store Items from 2.0.8

Ourorboros · May 2015

Being able to circumvent 6 months of daily logs to train riding skills is certainly convenient. It's kind of gray whether it is P2W. It does bestow some advantages in gathering resources. The guy who buys all the riding skills can get to a node faster than someone still training, and can cover more nodes before needing to hit the bank. It's not much, but it is an advantage. None of that really matters to me. I'm just going to be pissed off because some guy with a fat wallet can effortlessly have the same benefit that I can only get by logging every day, since I really can't afford to buy Crown $tore items on a whim. It makes me feel like I wasted my time and effort. Having money confers benefits, I get it. But I don't have to like it.

KerinKor · May 2015

Cry_Wolfe wrote: »

though some offered are rare drops, and one offered: full dwemer style book is the rarest item ingame). There has yet to be offered any item, upgrade or ability that provides meaningful advantage.

You identified one just such item in the first sentence!

If Dwemer gear fetches huge prices because few people were able craft it due to the rarity of the motif, then patently someone buying it and being able to participate in that market has a HUGE advantage over other crafters who refuse to pay-to-cheat.

UrQuan · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

Attorneyatlawl · May 2015

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

daemonios · May 2015

Just wanted to add my voice (or text) to the others who fear ESO is slowly but surely going P2W.

Riding lessons may not seem like much, but remember that they just recently took away the chance of buying horses with a head-start in certain attributes. Right now, a new character needs 6 months to level all riding skills. And they do provide advantages in competitive settings like PvP, namely:

- More carrying capacity, letting you carry many more siege weapons, repair items, potions, etc.;
- More stamina, which means you won't be as easily dismounted by an enemy hit;
- More speed, making it easier to escape or chase enemies or simply move around the map.

This is not like putting motifs in the crown store. Motifs can be bought for in-game gold, so the crown store versions simply let you save that in-game gold and get the motifs for real money.

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

Enodoc · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

UrQuan wrote: »

PKMN12 wrote: »

Totally paranoid, because ZOS has a track record of sticking to their word. Just like how they were never going to stray from the subscription model, because that would be the best way for them to deliver the kind of quality content they were expecting to release, and how the cash shop was going to be 100% cosmetics only.

I've heard a lot of people claim that they said that, but after challenging many people to find me a quote proving it, nobody has ever managed to do it. So now I challenge you @PKMN12 to find me a quote that says what you claim above in bold. Since, according to you, they said it a lot, and multiple times, it should be easy. Just prove what you claim, that's all.

You already know this, but I will back you up.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do Subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

Crown Store was always "customization and convenience" from Day 1.

"Simply put, this means that an item in the Crown Store serves one of two purposes: it either provides a visual upgrade or distinction for your character, or it provides a way to save time at the expense of spending crowns."

"Our goal with the Crown store is to offer convenience and cosmetic items. Convenience will allow people to save themselves time. It will not allow people to get the best items or become more powerful in the game than another player could achieve. I will say openly that some people feel ‘time-saving’ items are buy-to-win such as being able to gain experience faster. But our perspective is that removing time barriers is something players want, without providing an unfair advantage in power."

Please, that is absolutely incorrect and disingenuous. And gaining power quicker than you can do using in-game mechanics is indeed "pay to win", no two ways about it. If you have asked and challenged many people to find a quote, you could have found it with far less effort than ever even asking. A simple google search brings it right up ...

http://www.gamestar.de/spiele/the-elder-scrolls-online/artikel/the_elder_scrolls_online,44578,3026853.html

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

Matt Firor: We're thrilled that gamers are looking forward to diving into The Elder Scrolls Online and we've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

We're building a game with the freedom to play - alone or with your friends - as much as you want. A game with meaningful and consistent content - one packed with hundreds of hours of gameplay that can be experienced right away and one that will be supported with premium customer support. Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make.

The Elder Scrolls Online offers unlimited play for the first 30 days with the purchase of the game. The choice is yours to play as much as you want; hundreds of hours of content, PvP, etc - is all there for you to experience with the base purchase of the game. If you want to continue playing for hundreds of hours more after that first month you'll pay a flat fee for continued, unlimited access to the game.

We'll talk about further discounts, etc. later, but for now, we are very happy to finally announce our model. It's very simple - you pay once per month after the first 30 days and the entire game is available to you.

The interviewer remarks that it is a brave step to push forward with a subscription model given its waning popularity. In response, Matt Firor further explains:

The Elder Scrolls games are all about allowing the player to go where they want, be who they want, and do what they want. We feel that putting pay gates between the player and content at any point in game ruins that feeling of freedom, and just having one small monthly fee for 100% access to the game fits the IP and the game much better than a system where you have to pay for features and access as you play. The Elder Scrolls Online was designed and developed to be a premium experience: hundreds of hours of gameplay, tons of depth and features, professional customer support - and a commitment to have ongoing content at regular intervals after launch. This type of experience is best paired with a one-time fee per month, as opposed to many smaller payments that would probably add up to more than $14.99/month any way.

And it's important to state that our decision to go with subscriptions is not a referendum on online game revenue models. F2P, B2P, etc. are valid, proven business models - but subscription is the one that fits ESO the best, given our commitment to freedom of gameplay, quality and long-term content delivery. Plus, players will appreciate not having to worry about being "monetized" in the middle of playing the game, which is definitely a problem that is cropping up more and more in online gaming these days. The fact that the word "monetized" exists points to the heart of the issue for us: We don't want the player to worry about which parts of the game to pay for - with our system, they get it all.

Understandably, plans do not always go as hoped for, and a business pivot needs to be done to right the ship. I agree with the original vision regarding this. I don't begrudge Zenimax in the slightest for choosing to change and recognize that they felt it was the best option at this point in time. But let's not mince words: Players claiming that it never was said, or never happened are wrong, @lordrichter . Given how effortless it is to pull up the quotes, you would need to simply not want to look, to think otherwise. @Urquan, and anyone else commenting they had seen the game marketed in this way are absolutely right. By the way, that interview was from August 2013, as to how long they were marketing it in this fashion pre-launch .

Elloa wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

If it circumvents the daily cooldown, it's P2W.

I agree

I also agree. Paying to progress in ways not possible through normal gameplay isn't "convenience".

Yeah, you know what @Attorneyatlawl ? I've seen that quote before, many times. Can you please point to the part in it that says anything that indicates

PKMN12 wrote: »

that they would stick to the sub model no matter what

as @PKMN12 is claiming, and as I challenged him to prove (and as I have many times challenged others to prove)? Huh, well isn't that weird, there's nothing there that says anything even remotely like that. Really an attorney should know better than to try to present something as evidence that doesn't back up his position in the slightest... lol

So the challenge stands, and still hasn't been met by anyone. Go ahead, show me a quote that says that. Since they apparently said it many times, it should be really easy. Funny how nobody ever manages to actually find anything where they said it though.

The relevant sections were bolded in my quote.

I'll re-paste it right here:

"...We've been working hard to deliver the game that fans want - one that's worthy of the Elder Scrolls name. Choosing the right business model is part of that. We are going with the subscription model for ESO.

Charging a flat monthly (or subscription) fee means that we will offer players the game we set out to make, and the one that fans want to play. Going with any other model meant that we would have to make sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make."

There is no logical way to read that as anything other than "A subscription model is the right business model as part of delivering a great Elder Scrolls game, and charging a flat monthly fee means we can offer the game we want to deliver for the fans. Going with anything else would cause us to have to make 'sacrifices and changes we weren't willing to make'".

That last bit in particular tells you rather plainly that at that time, they felt that anything but a subscription model would diminish their ability to provide a great game experience and that they did not want to do so.

And that's true. But you say yourself, at that time. The point here is that nowhere in your bolded part does it say they would never change it in the future, just that subscription model being the right model was the state of affairs at the time when they said it.

daemonios wrote: »

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

And that is why these items must have some sort of cooldown. I don't mind if it's not 20 hours, but it needs to be at least 8.

Ryuho · May 2015

Well big deal.. If they implement truely P2W (raiding skills definitly shouldnt be considered as P2W) just move to diffrent mmo.. Camelot, Skyforge, Blackdesert, EQ Next.. There will be planty of them next year..

Sotha_Sil · May 2015

daemonios wrote: »

- More carrying capacity, letting you carry many more siege weapons, repair items, potions, etc.;

Really ? You don't need to have 50 siege weapons or repair items everywhere you go, just a few is enough and you can buy it everywhere if you need it.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

daemonios wrote: »

- More stamina, which means you won't be as easily dismounted by an enemy hit;

10 points in stamina (and even less) will get you enough horse stamina to avoid from being dismounted... Stamina is a useless stat.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

daemonios wrote: »

- More speed, making it easier to escape or chase enemies or simply move around the map.

-> Yes speed matters, but you can also increase it with other means. Use pots, rapid manoeuver, item sets to increase your speed while you are leveling this riding skill line daily. And this will be far enough speed for any activities you want to do in Cyrodiil, riding lessons or not.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

RIDING LESSONS = NOT P2W

ps. If something was P2W I'd be the first to tell but this... come on.

LordSkyKnight · May 2015

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Bunch of nonsense blah blah blah.
RIDING LESSONS = NOT P2W

Anytime you pay money to bypass standardized mechanics on a game, you are paying to win. Period.

You start with condition A and play the game to obtain condition B. When you pay extra money in the cash shop to skip that process and are awarded condition B, you are paying to win.

Sotha_Sil · May 2015

LordSkyKnight wrote: »

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

Bunch of nonsense blah blah blah.
RIDING LESSONS = NOT P2W

Anytime you pay money to bypass standardized mechanics on a game, you are paying to win. Period.

You start with condition A and play the game to obtain condition B. When you pay extra money in the cash shop to skip that process and are awarded condition B, you are paying to win.

So you are saying that buying food from the crown store is pay to win (because you skip leveling cooking skill line) ? even if it's not the best food in the game ?

Aha, your argument is invalid! What you describe is not P2W...

P2W stuff is stuff that will get you an advantage on other players who cannot get this advantage by any other means in game. The riding skill line can be leveled every day so riding lessons will let you skip time but you will still have the same thing in the end if you don't want to use $, it will just take more time. That's why it's not P2W.

ragespell · May 2015

The way I see it is that people with money skips grind and pays the bills.
Everybody else grind for free.

Do you really think a game can be kept alive only on the income of pets and costumes?

"Look at LoL!". But LoL it's not a mmorpg, it's competitive pvp. There is not grind involved ti improve you char

F7sus4 · May 2015

lordrichter wrote: »

I am not concerned about P2W. They are bypassing yet another gold sink from the game.

It's not a gold sink, it's a time sink. To get your horse up to 60/60/60, you'll spend 180 days, which is half of the year. A bit long, considering you can level up your alts to VR14 in 1-2 weeks.

daemonios · May 2015

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

daemonios wrote: »

- More carrying capacity, letting you carry many more siege weapons, repair items, potions, etc.;

Really ? You don't need to have 50 siege weapons or repair items everywhere you go, just a few is enough and you can buy it everywhere if you need it.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

daemonios wrote: »

- More stamina, which means you won't be as easily dismounted by an enemy hit;

10 points in stamina (and even less) will get you enough horse stamina to avoid from being dismounted... Stamina is a useless stat.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID

daemonios wrote: »

- More speed, making it easier to escape or chase enemies or simply move around the map.

-> Yes speed matters, but you can also increase it with other means. Use pots, rapid manoeuver, item sets to increase your speed while you are leveling this riding skill line daily. And this will be far enough speed for any activities you want to do in Cyrodiil, riding lessons or not.

-> YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
RIDING LESSONS = NOT P2W

ps. If something was P2W I'd be the first to tell but this... come on.

You keep using that word "invalid"... I don't think it means what you think it means.

This is not about whether it's a big or a small advantage. Store items that bypass in-game systems and give any kind of competitive advantage are by definition P2W. Unless your definition depends on how much of an advantage the item gives, in which case where do you draw the line?

F7sus4 · May 2015

mlits wrote: »

And what about giving theses kinds of advantages to people who paid a subscribtion? 10% xp 10% gold so fokken nice for 13€/month thanks

That's why I think sticking with initial subscription-plan would have been better. Everyone pays the same amount of money and everyone receives the same bonuses. No P2W accusations, problem solved and ZOS has recurring income (whereas Crown Store item amount means finite amount of income and an assumption that people will actually buy those items).

PS. Those red/green/blue Crown potions are pretty much like WinRAR license. If you buy them you're either red-turd or really drunk.

daemonios · May 2015

Sotha_Sil wrote: »

So you are saying that buying food from the crown store is pay to win (because you skip leveling cooking skill line) ? even if it's not the best food in the game ?

Aha, your argument is invalid! What you describe is not P2W..

Wrong. You can buy food in-game even while having 0 provisioning skill. The store foods only let you spend cash instead of in-game gold. And you will notice that no store food gives larger bonuses than crafted food, so no game system is bypassed.

Flynch · May 2015

Surely the entire premise of a B2P or F2P game is about selling things that give a player a small convenience for real money over in-game gold?

If they allow you to buy a raised cap for your skills exclusively through the shop, then that is P2W.

Once again, this is just about convenience. Up until ESO:TU we had Imperial mounts for 1g for those with the Imperial edition. So they (we) were already 'miles' ahead in that regard anyway. So, P2W from the start, or is it just one more random string for the supposed prophetic 'anti-cash shop' agenda that seems to be prevalent these days?

daemonios · May 2015

Flynch wrote: »

Surely the entire premise of a B2P or F2P game is about selling things that give a player a small convenience for real money over in-game gold?

If they allow you to buy a raised cap for your skills exclusively through the shop, then that is P2W.

Once again, this is just about convenience. Up until ESO:TU we had Imperial mounts for 1g for those with the Imperial edition. So they (we) were already 'miles' ahead in that regard anyway. So, P2W from the start, or is it just one more random string for the supposed prophetic 'anti-cash shop' agenda that seems to be prevalent these days?

I understand your point, but there are significant differences between special edition bonuses/subscriber bonuses and Crown Store items.

Regarding special edition bonuses, they are one-off payments and a marketing tool. You can't keep adding the special edition advantages to the same account. P2W Crown Store items, on the other hand, will eventually allow you to spend unlimited amounts of real cash for in-game advantages.

As for the subscription bonuses, I personally would prefer that the game remain subscriber-only. XP boosts are borderline P2W in my opinion, but only in that they make you earn CP faster. I could live with the free crowns in exchange for my subscription, but we need some content to spend them on, and I don't know what impact removing the XP bonus would have in the number of subscriptions. I prefer that there is a solid subscriber base, because the day the Crown Store becomes the sole source of revenue, ESO is probably gonna die a quick P2W death.

Peekachu99 · May 2015

The "slippery slope" argument. I'm a mid-30s professional and while I take the time to learn my class, gear and farm for nearly everything, small conveniences like eliminating a rather bs 6 month grind is something I am more than comfortable paying for. This is a business, after all. The developers have to make money. They're not entertaining you for charity. And I don't know how many of you have lost someone or experienced tragedy, but life is too short to waste needless amounts of time. Especially in games, which should be enjoyable, a hobby and not a second career. Just my $0.02.

daemonios · May 2015

Peekachu99 wrote: »

The "slippery slope" argument. I'm a mid-30s professional and while I take the time to learn my class, gear and farm for nearly everything, small conveniences like eliminating a rather bs 6 month grind is something I am more than comfortable paying for. This is a business, after all. The developers have to make money. They're not entertaining you for charity. And I don't know how many of you have lost someone or experienced tragedy, but life is too short to waste needless amounts of time. Especially in games, which should be enjoyable, a hobby and not a second career. Just my $0.02.

Well, then maybe they should remove the 6-month time-wall from the game altogether and focus on getting us content to spend money on?

JamilaRaj · May 2015

Flynch wrote: »

Surely the entire premise of a B2P or F2P game is about selling things that give a player a small convenience for real money over in-game gold?

If they allow you to buy a raised cap for your skills exclusively through the shop, then that is P2W.

Once again, this is just about convenience. Up until ESO:TU we had Imperial mounts for 1g for those with the Imperial edition. So they (we) were already 'miles' ahead in that regard anyway. So, P2W from the start, or is it just one more random string for the supposed prophetic 'anti-cash shop' agenda that seems to be prevalent these days?

Sure, Imperial edition was an advantage bought for money, decidedly P2W element. I went along with it (with it available, not that I gave in completely and bought it too) as long as it was one single and last violation of fair play that would be there, but in a hindsight, we certainly should have bashed ZOS for it until they dropped it, because P2W is like cancer. Wherever it appears, it has to be cut out fast and entirely, or else it will spread.

Flynch · May 2015

JamilaRaj wrote: »

Flynch wrote: »

Surely the entire premise of a B2P or F2P game is about selling things that give a player a small convenience for real money over in-game gold?

If they allow you to buy a raised cap for your skills exclusively through the shop, then that is P2W.

Once again, this is just about convenience. Up until ESO:TU we had Imperial mounts for 1g for those with the Imperial edition. So they (we) were already 'miles' ahead in that regard anyway. So, P2W from the start, or is it just one more random string for the supposed prophetic 'anti-cash shop' agenda that seems to be prevalent these days?

Sure, Imperial edition was an advantage bought for money, decidedly P2W element. I went along with it (with it available, not that I gave in completely a bought it too) as long as it was one single and last violation of fair play that would be there, but in a hidsight, we certainly should have bashed ZOS for it until they dropped it, because P2W is like cancer. Wherever it appears, it has to be cut out fast and entirely, or else it will spread.

If it was indeed P2W then i'd agree. But honestly, it's just a leg-up and it was allowed to slide because it wasn't really seen as P2W.

P2W has only reared its head on the forum with any strength since the cash-shop. But P2W isn't defined by a cash-shop, it can be implemented at any time. So what is the real beef here? Is it really with P2W (which is fine to frown upon) or is it with the cash-shop and thus anything outside of costumes going on there is seen as P2W just to further the cause?

theweakminded · May 2015

Obscure wrote: »

...horse training...ZOS is monetising horse training...

...yeah, that's a great idea, really going to keep people playing by circumventing a daily objective that encouraged daily logins...

Certainly a brilliant design move for a game struggling with low population...

Forcing login is not encouraging it. It is a mandate of time that some people dont have. Some people I play with do not log on for days in a row because of 12hr work shifts.

theweakminded · May 2015

daemonios wrote: »

Just wanted to add my voice (or text) to the others who fear ESO is slowly but surely going P2W.

Riding lessons may not seem like much, but remember that they just recently took away the chance of buying horses with a head-start in certain attributes. Right now, a new character needs 6 months to level all riding skills. And they do provide advantages in competitive settings like PvP, namely:

- More carrying capacity, letting you carry many more siege weapons, repair items, potions, etc.;
- More stamina, which means you won't be as easily dismounted by an enemy hit;
- More speed, making it easier to escape or chase enemies or simply move around the map.

This is not like putting motifs in the crown store. Motifs can be bought for in-game gold, so the crown store versions simply let you save that in-game gold and get the motifs for real money.

Riding lessons are not available in-game without the daily cooldown. If you buy them in the crown store and get to circumvent the cooldown, you are getting (i) a competitive advantage over other players (ii) that can't be achieved through normal gameplay, i.e. without spending crowns.

Circumventing a terrible system is not an issue. It is not as if crowns will get you more than someone else, faster. aka convince.

Cry_Wolfe · May 2015

KerinKor wrote: »

Cry_Wolfe wrote: »

though some offered are rare drops, and one offered: full dwemer style book is the rarest item ingame). There has yet to be offered any item, upgrade or ability that provides meaningful advantage.

You identified one just such item in the first sentence!

If Dwemer gear fetches huge prices because few people were able craft it due to the rarity of the motif, then patently someone buying it and being able to participate in that market has a HUGE advantage over other crafters who refuse to pay-to-cheat.

the entire dwemer motif in a single book is indeed the rarest item ingame, not so much the individual chapters. I still need the dagger chapter, but have found 5 of the others and bought the rest for about 5-8k each.

The one point of divergence between the CS bought motifs and those found ingame is that CS Motifs have no skill requirements, you can quite literally use them a few seconds after character creation, whereas ingame motifs require a gear crafting skill of 9/9.

At first I was upset about this, but later after some thought decided i didn't actually really care that much about it. Purple Motifs (non dwemer) go for around 20k each, not a large sum now that mounts are global. The dwemer motifs aren't that hard to find either in guild stores or out in the wild ( I find one every couple of weeks). This is a case where whales can go have a whale of a time and help to fund the game with their indifference or impatience, in my opinion.

and it is still a slippery slope.... aka: reputations can be hard to mend and gamers can be hard to forgive... you've got eyes on you so make sure you don't stuff it up

mtwiggz · May 2015

Player with faster horse gets to battle sooner. Boarders on an advantage, or perhaps player gets to battle faster and dies more times which means more AP for me.

Player with max stamina can not be knocked off of his horse as easily. Boarders on an advantage, but if you are concerning yourself with ganking horse riders - your opinion is laughable.

I won't concern myself with thinking anything is P2W until I see items in the Crown Store that are otherwise not available in game at all. Anything that is available in game - with a reasonable drop rate - can be in the Crown Store for all I care.

Player A has no job or real life responsibilities so he can farm for items all day. Player B works 40+ hours a week, has a family, friends, etc. so he pays 'X' Crowns for the same item Player A farmed for. Both Player A and Player B have the same item with no advantages or disadvantages either way. I don't see an issue.

Once we start seeing items that are only available in the Crown Store is when I draw the line.

Opinions are opinions.

Elsonso · May 2015

Attorneyatlawl wrote: »

Took me quite literally 30 seconds to glance through the first 4 results on the search page and find the quotes.

All of these are nice quotes, and ones that I agree with, but they do not form a promise to stay with subscriptions. They do not take a stand against B2P and F2P. Quite the opposite of promising that the game will stay subscription, they contain warnings about what could happen if they do not stay with subscriptions. They tell us what we should be expecting, now that they are not.

What I expect is that they will no longer be delivering the game that they wanted to make, and the one I originally signed up for. They will make concessions due to B2P, concessions that they did not feel were right for the game back then, and may not think are right for the game now. B2P is a fact, today, and per these exact quotes, they are no longer delivering the game that they wanted to make.

They did not say, nor did they imply, that they would do subscription, no matter what. They never said they would shut the game down, either.

I must disagree with you. I stand by that statement.

F7sus4 · May 2015

I just wanted to remind you that all people once 1.6 was announced had enough time to buy 3 horses and level their Speed, Stamina and Capacity simultaneously. They did that because they knew all those attributes will be summed, giving them 50/50/50 after the patch instantly. So essentially, they leveled their horses three times faster than every single person that started the game after 1.6 and it was OK. But when ZOS plans to offer you time-boost, you're offended. So brilliant!

teladoy · May 2015

This is not PTW but similar.

This means you can achieve things in ESO instant by paying. You will not be better than anyone else, but either you would not have to work to get it all (ok almost all).

Veteran levels and maximum skill points are the next books that should come in Crown Store.

Varicite · May 2015

F7sus4 wrote: »

I just wanted to remind you that all people once 1.6 was announced had enough time to buy 3 horses and level their Speed, Stamina and Capacity simultaneously. They did that because they knew all those attributes will be summed, giving them 50/50/50 instantly. So you leveled your horses three times faster than every single person that started after 1.6 and it was OK. But when ZOS plans to offer you time-boost, you're offended. So brilliant!

Actually, during 1.6 PTS, it was assumed by the vast majority of players that riding skills would be combined because ZOS said that the horses would now be account-wide, and the stats were always tied individually to the horses prior to 1.6.

ZOS never once chimed in to clarify that this would NOT be the case, so while there was time, most believed that their 60 speed horse Sorc and 60 stam horse NB and 60 capacity horse DK would combine to give all of their characters a 60/60/60 horse.

It was not until the actual day of the patch that it came to light that the riding skills were actually now going to be bound to each character INSTEAD of to the horses themselves.

F7sus4 · May 2015

It's enough to read forums to know all those things - officially or not. Either way, people who got their horses power-leveled now want to prevent other people from getting the same. How nice!