Rise of the planet of the Sorcs

Galalin · March 2015

Nerf sorcs... kk thanks

making up for my lack of nerf posting pre 1.6 love you sorcs btw.

DK SCRUB OUT

bosmern_ESO · March 2015

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So been a lot of QQ on here recently from sorcs.

Funny how every campaign I tried tonight was infested with invincible sorcs zapping through the air and pwning everything in sight.

Had a lame 3v1 and it was like fighting a Jedi until we were dead and he zapped his merry way like Santa on acid.

Could I have the same nerf on my NB plz that the sorcs have been whining about, its seems to have done them wonders.

but but...I thought sorcs were completely useless now and couldn't do anything?! (says all the people who can't sorc)

pronkg · March 2015

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So been a lot of QQ on here recently from sorcs.

Funny how every campaign I tried tonight was infested with invincible sorcs zapping through the air and pwning everything in sight.

Had a lame 3v1 and it was like fighting a Jedi until we were dead and he zapped his merry way like Santa on acid.

Could I have the same nerf on my NB plz that the sorcs have been whining about, its seems to have done them wonders.

but but...I thought sorcs were completely useless now and couldn't do anything?! (says all the people who can't sorc)

Funny how it goes from useless to OP without changes huh? :P

It proves people have difficulty to adapt. This will be over soon, in fact. Sorcs are no problem anymore, it's siege weapons now

Xsorus · March 2015

pronkg wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So been a lot of QQ on here recently from sorcs.

Funny how every campaign I tried tonight was infested with invincible sorcs zapping through the air and pwning everything in sight.

Had a lame 3v1 and it was like fighting a Jedi until we were dead and he zapped his merry way like Santa on acid.

Could I have the same nerf on my NB plz that the sorcs have been whining about, its seems to have done them wonders.

but but...I thought sorcs were completely useless now and couldn't do anything?! (says all the people who can't sorc)

Funny how it goes from useless to OP without changes huh? :P

It proves people have difficulty to adapt. This will be over soon, in fact. Sorcs are no problem anymore, it's siege weapons now

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, better magicka management and the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

They did other things to improve the damage of Sorcs as well..but those things for example are what's really pushed them over the Top.

Maulkin · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

1) The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, 2) better magicka management and 3) the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

@xsorusb14_ESO Stahp!

Read the posts above you before you post and either counter with evidence or don't post the same rubbish.

1) The removal of soft-caps has not led to more powerful shields. Shields took a 15% nerf in Cyrodiil and as a result you get same shields as you did before and that only IF you build as a glass cannon with 30k max magicka. Not to mention that your mitigation without shields is now 0 and you have less HP too. With 20k HP and 0 mitigation you can get one-shotted by freaking heavy attacks if your shields are down. Not to mention that our heals got a huge nerf with the nerf to crit surge.

2) Better Magicka/Stamina management is the result of removed soft caps for all builds. Stamina DDs can dodge-roll and attack forever, tanks can block forever, I can cast for seemingly ever. That's an even playing field, not an advantage to Sorcs. In fact by some changes that were made to our passives (Expert Mage) a lot of our core skills had their cost increased.

3) The removal of crit resist is probably the only one that led to higher average damage across the board. I think impenetrable needs a considerable buff imo. However as you can't crit on shields, you also can't crit on block and Sorc attacks are ALL blockable in 1.6. Velocious Curse - blockable, Endless Fury - Blockable.

The only other buff that Sorcs got was Overload, which I'll agree is OTT at the moment.

Derra · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So been a lot of QQ on here recently from sorcs.

Funny how every campaign I tried tonight was infested with invincible sorcs zapping through the air and pwning everything in sight.

Had a lame 3v1 and it was like fighting a Jedi until we were dead and he zapped his merry way like Santa on acid.

Could I have the same nerf on my NB plz that the sorcs have been whining about, its seems to have done them wonders.

but but...I thought sorcs were completely useless now and couldn't do anything?! (says all the people who can't sorc)

Funny how it goes from useless to OP without changes huh? :P

It proves people have difficulty to adapt. This will be over soon, in fact. Sorcs are no problem anymore, it's siege weapons now

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, better magicka management and the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

They did other things to improve the damage of Sorcs as well..but those things for example are what's really pushed them over the Top.

And you´re comment shows that you don´t have the slightest grasp of what sorc play is like or what is making the class powerful at the moment. It´s none of the things you mention apart from the crit change maybe - but even that one is debateable because as you said: One can´t crit on shields and what most DKs forget to mention - you can´t crit on block either.
Also the resource and regeneration values are not that different. I´ve been playing 160 magica reg with 2800 max magica in 1.5. Now i´m sitting at 1400 reg and 29k magica.
Shields are roughly equal to 1.5 in terms of power when you have enough cp to overcome the cyrodiil nerf.

So what made sorcs so much more powerful compared to 1.5?
First the changes to sorcs burst skills (a stupid attempt to buff the classes pve dps imho: Fragments on procc got a 20% dmg increase and curse got 25% dmg increase - not really though see point 2).
Second are the changes to HP. Everyone is basically running 40% less HP than in 1.5. If you compare the actual dmg values of the skills to 1.5 values x10 they are not that different (in fact one might notice that they did not buff curse dmg at all). However when you take into consideration the average HP pool - dmg has increased (eg. 7000 of 21000 is more than 700 of 3500). This favors the "bursty" sorc class mechanic.
Third one is the change to block. People not build to do so can no longer permablock against a sorc (everyone could in 1.5 bc some sorc skills where not blockable and therefor there was no way for a sorc to drain stamina). Block requires a clever use now. People have not adapted mostly (either their build or their playstyle).

Last i would mention that sorc pvp build where mostly (and are now) 100% magica based. Being dependant on only one resource is an advantage with low champion points because you can focus your cp on that.
Most other classes relied on stamina skills (invasion being the most prominent) of some sort (even with their magica builds) and ofc block.

olsborg · March 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

Ryuho · March 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

Totally agree with @olsborg shield stacking must go.. allow only one shield per resorce, like one max HP scaled shield and one MP scaled shield at the same time. I am using only hardened as sorc, i think hardened provides me enough defense vs melee, and BoL vs casters, so no point of using more shields.. But yeah, nothing better like ultimate shield stacking build.. Crystal/Hardened/Dampen/BoL/Healing bubble and ulti? Ofc Barrier

Maulkin · March 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

I think ez's argument is that with stamina damage so prevalent in 1.6 Sorcs don't use the Harness as much as they did in 1.5 and for that reason it has dropped off Sorcs bars. And as a result magicka users have one less shield to go through too. Unless you're dueling another magicka user, where using class shield + harness can be ridiculous, I agree with you.

The problem is if you remove stacking altogether, how do you balance around Healing Ward being a shield? Stacking another shield on Healing Ward is kind of important atm, because your low underlying health procs all the executes in the game, thus removing your Healing Ward very quickly. If Healing Ward was a direct heal like Templar's BoL it would both help non-Templar healers for dungeons hugely and it would also allow ZOS to proceed with removing shield stacking (every shield cast, replaces the last one) without screwing people over.

Making Healing Ward a direct heal would not screw Templars over either. Purify, Blazing Spear (stamina for the tank) and Illuminate Passive (Minor Sorcery for all), still make them the best choice for healer/buffer in dungeons.

Tankqull · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

pronkg wrote: »

bosmern_ESO wrote: »

martinhpb16_ESO wrote: »

So been a lot of QQ on here recently from sorcs.

Funny how every campaign I tried tonight was infested with invincible sorcs zapping through the air and pwning everything in sight.

Had a lame 3v1 and it was like fighting a Jedi until we were dead and he zapped his merry way like Santa on acid.

Could I have the same nerf on my NB plz that the sorcs have been whining about, its seems to have done them wonders.

but but...I thought sorcs were completely useless now and couldn't do anything?! (says all the people who can't sorc)

Funny how it goes from useless to OP without changes huh? :P

It proves people have difficulty to adapt. This will be over soon, in fact. Sorcs are no problem anymore, it's siege weapons now

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, better magicka management and the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

They did other things to improve the damage of Sorcs as well..but those things for example are what's really pushed them over the Top.

jep like making 2 of our 3 classattacks which were former not-blockable blockable wich was a great dmg increasment...

cozmon3c_ESO · March 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

I think ez's argument is that with stamina damage so prevalent in 1.6 Sorcs don't use the Harness as much as they did in 1.5 and for that reason it has dropped off Sorcs bars. And as a result magicka users have one less shield to go through too. Unless you're dueling another magicka user, where using class shield + harness can be ridiculous, I agree with you.

The problem is if you remove stacking altogether, how do you balance around Healing Ward being a shield? Stacking another shield on Healing Ward is kind of important atm, because your low underlying health procs all the executes in the game, thus removing your Healing Ward very quickly. If Healing Ward was a direct heal like Templar's BoL it would both help non-Templar healers for dungeons hugely and it would also allow ZOS to proceed with removing shield stacking (every shield cast, replaces the last one) without screwing people over.

Making Healing Ward a direct heal would not screw Templars over either. Purify, Blazing Spear (stamina for the tank) and Illuminate Passive (Minor Sorcery for all), still make them the best choice for healer/buffer in dungeons.

when ever i cast healing ward i get healed for 3k right away, then the full amount when it goes away. its probably a passive for resto staff. so your point is already happening with healing ward, this has saved me from executes numerous times. if they remove shield stacking i wont have much issue with it, ill just keep recasting healing ward when im almost dead until i am bolted away from the people trying to kill me and let it heal me after the 6 seconds (i think it is) to full life. it will be my OP low life shield instead of using hardened ward to protect my healing ward.

so basically i see no change in how i play, go ahead and remove shield stacking. nothing will change.

Snit · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, better magicka management and the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

A couple of points:

- Softcaps were removed for all characters. Competent players in stamina builds are doing fairly well, building either for burst (WB or Snipers) or for very frequent use of dodge roll (or both -- it's all stamina)
- Magicka Management became harder for sorcs in 1.6, not easier. The change to the Expert Mage passive increased the cost of everything lightning-based (including Bolt Escape and Surge). You can still build for regen, of course, like any other class, but the starting point is lower now
- Your typical sorc will have a shield of 9 to 11k in Cyrodiil (30k magicka, which is definitely more than the median, is an 11.3k point shield). There's no mitigation, and block does not help. If your build can't do 11k damage, non-crit, then your build or gear is the issue. Note, you can still use Crowd Control to give you more time
- The sorc weakness will always be stamina. Competent players know how to exploit this

It's no different from killing a healer in most MMO's. You have to build for either great burst, or decent burst with some CC. It's the exact same problem you face when dealing with good Templars or tanky Sword and Board DK's. You burst (or CC and burst), or they recover.

Maulkin · March 2015

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

so basically i see no change in how i play, go ahead and remove shield stacking. nothing will change.

Au contraire, mon ami. Loads will change. If not in how you specifically play, it will for others. And it'll change how others perceive things.

1) It will stop pre-emptive stacking. For example I'm about to enter a breach with tons of siege with my Templar buddy. I stack Harness + Hardened Ward, he gives us both a Barrier, I enter breach with 40k worth of shields. Since siege ignores armor, I can now take way more damage then that tank next to me. Stupid.

2) When I'm healing dungeons, my tank needs a solid heal, not a 3k heal and a frigging 15k shield that will go down in one hit from the boss. A heal that he can protect behind his block and huge mitigation from heavy armor.

and the most important....

3) No more QQ from scrubs "oh, I got killed by a shield-stacking sorc. That's system abuse, that's an exploit, blah blah blah". No more excuses for getting rekt.

Everybody wins

Lava_Croft · March 2015

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

Maulkin · March 2015

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

No more than it is for stamina DDs from what I see.

Ezareth · March 2015

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

ToRelax · March 2015

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

Maulkin · March 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

I haven't used harness in 1.6, cause 2Hers, but my Hardened ward is ~11.5k with 31k Max Magicka and 15 CP into Bastion

Ezareth · March 2015

ToRelax wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

Yes I know to multiply the tooltip value by .33% to get the actual hardened ward value. The same is true of Dampen Magick.

It is possible that I'm mentally remembering Dampen Magicka with 7 pieces of light armor as 12K however in which case Harness Magicka would only be 8500 which makes sense.

I know that when I calculated my maximum magicka "shield stack" values, my hardened was just over 10K, My harness or Dampen was 12K and my healing ward was 4K (which if you're under 30% health when you cast it makes it 16K).

Ezareth · March 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

I haven't used harness in 1.6, cause 2Hers, but my Hardened ward is ~11.5k with 31k Max Magicka and 15 CP into Bastion

Yeah that makes sense considering you have a bit over 4K more magicka than I.

I think my hardened is now 10.7K with 42 CP into Bastion

Xsorus · March 2015

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

only there were changes that made Sorcs more powerful.

1) The removal of Softcaps have lead to more powerful shields, 2) better magicka management and 3) the basic removal of Crit resist has increased their damage while as long as you have shields up, you basically have the old form of Impenetrable. (aka not able to be crit)

@xsorusb14_ESO Stahp!

Read the posts above you before you post and either counter with evidence or don't post the same rubbish.

1) The removal of soft-caps has not led to more powerful shields. Shields took a 15% nerf in Cyrodiil and as a result you get same shields as you did before and that only IF you build as a glass cannon with 30k max magicka. Not to mention that your mitigation without shields is now 0 and you have less HP too. With 20k HP and 0 mitigation you can get one-shotted by freaking heavy attacks if your shields are down. Not to mention that our heals got a huge nerf with the nerf to crit surge.

2) Better Magicka/Stamina management is the result of removed soft caps for all builds. Stamina DDs can dodge-roll and attack forever, tanks can block forever, I can cast for seemingly ever. That's an even playing field, not an advantage to Sorcs. In fact by some changes that were made to our passives (Expert Mage) a lot of our core skills had their cost increased.

3) The removal of crit resist is probably the only one that led to higher average damage across the board. I think impenetrable needs a considerable buff imo. However as you can't crit on shields, you also can't crit on block and Sorc attacks are ALL blockable in 1.6. Velocious Curse - blockable, Endless Fury - Blockable.

The only other buff that Sorcs got was Overload, which I'll agree is OTT at the moment.

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

MADshadowman · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Yoohoooo @xsorusb14_ESO !

I remember our 1v1 and how you said "they should really nerf resto heavy attacks"

Anything else you want nerfed?

You realize I'm not only one who agrees with this right? Sypher has posted about it multiple times and even ZoS has said they are going to change it because an unbashable heavy ranged attack that you also can't interrupt is a little powerful esp since it restores mana. But by all means keep posting about it.

I realize something else, bro...

But resto heavy attacks are the weakest heavy attacks in the game and they restore magicka, so what? a resto staff is more a defense and resource managing weapon than a dps weapon. It needs some purpose. if you take the magicka restore away, what's left? not much. So stop whining about everything, you play the strongest class in game and snipe like a maniac and just because you had problems killing me, my bad bad resto staff is the reason and needs to be nerfed? Come on buddy, get real.

I don't even need the staff to sustain my magicka, my build is self sustaining.

Show some respect for the resto staff!

Xsorus · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Yoohoooo @xsorusb14_ESO !

I remember our 1v1 and how you said "they should really nerf resto heavy attacks"

Anything else you want nerfed?

You realize I'm not only one who agrees with this right? Sypher has posted about it multiple times and even ZoS has said they are going to change it because an unbashable heavy ranged attack that you also can't interrupt is a little powerful esp since it restores mana. But by all means keep posting about it.

I realize something else, bro...

But resto heavy attacks are the weakest heavy attacks in the game and they restore magicka, so what? a resto staff is more a defense and resource managing weapon than a dps weapon. It needs some purpose. if you take the magicka restore away, what's left? not much. So stop whining about everything, you play the strongest class in game and snipe like a maniac and just because you had problems killing me, my bad bad resto staff is the reason and needs to be nerfed? Come on buddy, get real.

I don't even need the staff to sustain my magicka, my build is self sustaining.

Show some respect for the resto staff!

It's not just restro staff they are nerfing, all the ranged weapons including bow will be interruptable. As for you needing it or not I don't know, you seemed to be doing that low damage heavy attack an awful lot for someone who doesn't need magicka.

Bouvin · March 2015

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?

Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

MADshadowman · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Yoohoooo @xsorusb14_ESO !

I remember our 1v1 and how you said "they should really nerf resto heavy attacks"

Anything else you want nerfed?

You realize I'm not only one who agrees with this right? Sypher has posted about it multiple times and even ZoS has said they are going to change it because an unbashable heavy ranged attack that you also can't interrupt is a little powerful esp since it restores mana. But by all means keep posting about it.

I realize something else, bro...

But resto heavy attacks are the weakest heavy attacks in the game and they restore magicka, so what? a resto staff is more a defense and resource managing weapon than a dps weapon. It needs some purpose. if you take the magicka restore away, what's left? not much. So stop whining about everything, you play the strongest class in game and snipe like a maniac and just because you had problems killing me, my bad bad resto staff is the reason and needs to be nerfed? Come on buddy, get real.

I don't even need the staff to sustain my magicka, my build is self sustaining.

Show some respect for the resto staff!

It's not just restro staff they are nerfing, all the ranged weapons including bow will be interruptable. As for you needing it or not I don't know, you seemed to be doing that low damage heavy attack an awful lot for someone who doesn't need magicka.

you were sniping all the time, so i stayed on my healing bar, that's where the resto staff is. so you got some heavy attacks with it. and now? just stop the qq already, people are starting to laugh about you. come on bro, it's enough.

MADshadowman · March 2015

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?

Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Xsorus · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Yoohoooo @xsorusb14_ESO !

I remember our 1v1 and how you said "they should really nerf resto heavy attacks"

Anything else you want nerfed?

You realize I'm not only one who agrees with this right? Sypher has posted about it multiple times and even ZoS has said they are going to change it because an unbashable heavy ranged attack that you also can't interrupt is a little powerful esp since it restores mana. But by all means keep posting about it.

I realize something else, bro...

But resto heavy attacks are the weakest heavy attacks in the game and they restore magicka, so what? a resto staff is more a defense and resource managing weapon than a dps weapon. It needs some purpose. if you take the magicka restore away, what's left? not much. So stop whining about everything, you play the strongest class in game and snipe like a maniac and just because you had problems killing me, my bad bad resto staff is the reason and needs to be nerfed? Come on buddy, get real.

I don't even need the staff to sustain my magicka, my build is self sustaining.

Show some respect for the resto staff!

It's not just restro staff they are nerfing, all the ranged weapons including bow will be interruptable. As for you needing it or not I don't know, you seemed to be doing that low damage heavy attack an awful lot for someone who doesn't need magicka.

you were sniping all the time, so i stayed on my healing bar, that's where the resto staff is. so you got some heavy attacks with it. and now? just stop the qq already, people are starting to laugh about you. come on bro, it's enough.

i wasn't aware pointing out something multiple people have complained about and even ZoS agreed with was QQing, ill let you get back to using the lowest damage heavy attack In the game because you didn't need mana and just felt like doing it heh

Xsorus · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?

Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Imagine if someone could pop a pot that disabled your bolt escape for 40 seconds.... So yea...

Samadhi · March 2015

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?

Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Personally keep Detection + Spell Damage + Magicka Regen potions running constantly in order to counter Cloak.
That is part of my Nightblade's build being set up to heavily counter other Nightblades though.

My Stamina build counters Sorcerers almost as well though, just do not find it as interesting to play.

Do not personally see an issue with Sorcerers.

Samadhi · March 2015

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

...
As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.
...

Quick question
What are your feelings on Way of Air set?

Two Stamina Regen bonuses and 5 piece bonus gives more Weapon Damage than Hunding's Rage does, but only gives it as a 6 second buff after roll dodging.

Debating using it on my Bosmer Nightblade, but have not set it up yet.