Rise of the planet of the Sorcs

Xsorus

Samadhi wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

...
As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.
...

Quick question
What are your feelings on Way of Air set?

Two Stamina Regen bonuses and 5 piece bonus gives more Weapon Damage than Hunding's Rage does, but only gives it as a 6 second buff after roll dodging.

Debating using it on my Bosmer Nightblade, but have not set it up yet.

For bosmer nightblades stacking stamin recovery you would use the 2 set bonuses for stamina recovery, if you wanna cut down on 1 stamina recovery set bonus can pick up the 5 piece. But way of air is going to be used that's for sure.

Joy_Division

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

- Sorcs have the highest burst damage in the game, and it also happens to be ranged
- Um lethal arrow. wrecking blow. all out burst sorcs damage. sorc has delayed damage, everything is easily counterable if you know what you are doing. crystal frag, you can see from a mile, curse delayed damage.
- Sorcs have the best movement ability in the game (Streak)
- true (though streak kinda sucks now, it barely does any damage and leaves you wide open unlike BOL)
- Sorcs have the strongest ranged CC in the game (Crystal Shards)
- sure it knocks you down sometimes for 1.5 seconds. best i would say is shield charge, 3 second knock down feels like an eternity if you are out of stam.
- Sorcs have the cheapest and incredibly strong spammable shield in the game (Hardened Ward)
- i wouldnt say incredibly strong, it gets eaten through in one hit most of the time, so i am going 1 for 1 with people. best shield in the game imo is healing ward.
- Sorcs have a really good self-heal that works simply by dealing damage.
- you must be joking, we dont even need to worry about our health as a magicka sorc really, when that shield goes down, we are mostly toast. i save myself with healing ward, not a sorc skill btw. crit surge is to unreliable for use as it will proc of some tiny damage you do and be on cool down for you nice hits.
- Sorcs have the best execute in the game (Fury). It is ranged and can be pre-applied.
- i hate to be the bearer of bad news for you but the best execute is actually the jesus beam. fury barely goes off because the game gives the person afflicted by it like 2 seconds to heal before the execute even happens most of the time. (frustrating fighting dks and templars and nightblades and sorcs lol). the skill is just mediocre and frustrating and takes 2-3 casts to kill people with it who are below 20% life.

Bold ^

You are way understating the sorc and overstating the other classes.

Melee burst is harder to initiate and easier to avoid than ranged. Sorcs have the easiest time comboing a burst attack in the game because they are ranged and their hardest hitting spell can come in the form of an insta-cast. And none of this considers Overload which is insanely strong.

CS stun out-ranges shield charge. Every class - including sorcs - can have shield charge.

As much as I find the whining about sorc shields tedious at this point, let's not undersell the ability, it is cheaper, stronger, and lasts longer than any shield in the game. Healing ward is most certainly *not* better as it's use it tied to having low health. Also considering it's high cost and short duration, short duration makes it only situationally better. And again, this is not a class skill, anyone can use it - including sorcs.

I do agree the poster you responded to overvalues surge.

Mage's Wrath is still the best execute in the game despite the whining that the Jesus Beam has elicited. How can you complain about the supposed 2 second explosion time - wildly overstating the case btw - and then praise the Jesus Beam that take 3.5 seconds to complete it's damage? That just makes no sense at all. Here is the other key difference people praising the Jesus Beam always forget, the Templar must willingly leave themselves defenseless for 3.5 seconds and surrender the initiative to the enemy to get that kill in. A sorc just presses a button, even via blockcasting, and *poof* the enemy is dead. In 99% of situations when the opponent has less than 20% health, Mage's Fury is better. In many situation above 20%, mage's fury is still the better way to set up a kill because the vulnerable templar must channel the beam whereas a sorc after casting mage's fury is free to follow up with a high damage spell like crushing shock (or better is a crystal shard insta-cast) and still defend herself. Radiant destruction is only insdisputably better if the target is incapable of reacting (which means the target is dead no matter what). If Jesus had to slot an execute, it would be Mage's Fury.

Samadhi

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Samadhi wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

...
As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.
...

Quick question
What are your feelings on Way of Air set?

Two Stamina Regen bonuses and 5 piece bonus gives more Weapon Damage than Hunding's Rage does, but only gives it as a 6 second buff after roll dodging.

Debating using it on my Bosmer Nightblade, but have not set it up yet.

For bosmer nightblades stacking stamin recovery you would use the 2 set bonuses for stamina recovery, if you wanna cut down on 1 stamina recovery set bonus can pick up the 5 piece. But way of air is going to be used that's for sure.

Thank you for the insight.
Have been picking up pieces of it while running around Cyrodiil, and began pondering if the tradeoff would be worthwhile.

MADshadowman

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Yoohoooo @xsorusb14_ESO !

I remember our 1v1 and how you said "they should really nerf resto heavy attacks"

Anything else you want nerfed?

You realize I'm not only one who agrees with this right? Sypher has posted about it multiple times and even ZoS has said they are going to change it because an unbashable heavy ranged attack that you also can't interrupt is a little powerful esp since it restores mana. But by all means keep posting about it.

I realize something else, bro...

But resto heavy attacks are the weakest heavy attacks in the game and they restore magicka, so what? a resto staff is more a defense and resource managing weapon than a dps weapon. It needs some purpose. if you take the magicka restore away, what's left? not much. So stop whining about everything, you play the strongest class in game and snipe like a maniac and just because you had problems killing me, my bad bad resto staff is the reason and needs to be nerfed? Come on buddy, get real.

I don't even need the staff to sustain my magicka, my build is self sustaining.

Show some respect for the resto staff!

It's not just restro staff they are nerfing, all the ranged weapons including bow will be interruptable. As for you needing it or not I don't know, you seemed to be doing that low damage heavy attack an awful lot for someone who doesn't need magicka.

you were sniping all the time, so i stayed on my healing bar, that's where the resto staff is. so you got some heavy attacks with it. and now? just stop the qq already, people are starting to laugh about you. come on bro, it's enough.

i wasn't aware pointing out something multiple people have complained about and even ZoS agreed with was QQing, ill let you get back to using the lowest damage heavy attack In the game because you didn't need mana and just felt like doing it heh

aww dude, the qq is real.

AltusVenifus

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?



Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Play around with it on PTS, if you think it is awesome. It is not.

MADshadowman

AltusVenifus wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?



Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Play around with it on PTS, if you think it is awesome. It is not.

i played a nightblade for a couple weeks and i didn't feel like cloak was broken. Could do awesome things with it. I don't know why so many nightblades say it's not working. Maybe they don't know how to use it? Maybe they are expecting too much? We will never know.

Snit

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

But way of air is going to be used that's for sure.

Yep I have a little bosmer werewolf nightblade I never play. Once I pile up enough CP's to make him goofy good, I'll advance him to vet and have some fun. In the meantime, Way of Air gear is among the stuff I'm collecting.

A lot of builds will be so good they're broken with sufficient CP. I think Bosmer NB's may be among the first to see this. The break point may be 360 CP's, unlocking Tactician (sets opponent off-balance when you dodge their attack).

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

Lava_Croft

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

No more than it is for stamina DDs from what I see.

Yes, those are exactly the two things that need to be tweaked the soonest.

PS: Restoration staff needs no more nerfs.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

I adore my sorc, I go into pvp with zero points in health and demolish everything 1v1 and if its 3 or more I just port away

AltusVenifus

MADshadowman wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?



Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Play around with it on PTS, if you think it is awesome. It is not.

i played a nightblade for a couple weeks and i didn't feel like cloak was broken. Could do awesome things with it. I don't know why so many nightblades say it's not working. Maybe they don't know how to use it? Maybe they are expecting too much? We will never know.

It really depends on if you think an incoming attack should break the cloaked... if you think it should hit and break the cloak, then the skill is only broken about .1% of the time, (i.e. casting it costs magic, but receive no invis or it just doesn't work).

If you think the projectile or attack shouldn't break the cloak (technically, everything but DOTs and AOE shouldn't as far as I was last tracking), then it fails all the time. If I had to guess, 50-75% fail rate maybe more. Think of it this way, every time someone complains about lag in PVP, know that NB cloak isn't doing what it is supposed to be doing... the servers just can't compute fast enough or something.

Don't get me wrong, NBs have for the most part figured this out and so the good ones will always try to cloak after a dodge roll or on a defensive cast from an opponent. With that said, how would you feel if your damage shield broke after the first hit if any incoming damage was in the air when u hit the button...

Just my two cents

Galalin

Ezareth wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

Yes I know to multiply the tooltip value by .33% to get the actual hardened ward value. The same is true of Dampen Magick.

It is possible that I'm mentally remembering Dampen Magicka with 7 pieces of light armor as 12K however in which case Harness Magicka would only be 8500 which makes sense.

I know that when I calculated my maximum magicka "shield stack" values, my hardened was just over 10K, My harness or Dampen was 12K and my healing ward was 4K (which if you're under 30% health when you cast it makes it 16K).

So nothing seems wrong about a 38k damage shield that is recastable?

Hmmm idk about that

eventide03b14a_ESO

Why do people keep calling them damage shields? They are wards. A damage shield is something that reflects damage. The wards cause no damage.

Galalin

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Why do people keep calling them damage shields? They are wards. A damage shield is something that reflects damage. The wards cause no damage.

Thats your big argument?

Well then i guess wards are ok then

DK SCRUB OUT

Ezareth

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

Yes I know to multiply the tooltip value by .33% to get the actual hardened ward value. The same is true of Dampen Magick.

It is possible that I'm mentally remembering Dampen Magicka with 7 pieces of light armor as 12K however in which case Harness Magicka would only be 8500 which makes sense.

I know that when I calculated my maximum magicka "shield stack" values, my hardened was just over 10K, My harness or Dampen was 12K and my healing ward was 4K (which if you're under 30% health when you cast it makes it 16K).

So nothing seems wrong about a 38k damage shield that is recastable?

Hmmm idk about that

The healing ward is only that high when you're extremely low health and the ward itself heals you to prevent it receiving the bonus permanently.

Let me put it in these terms for you is spending 8000+ magicka(1/3 of most sorcs mana bar) worth 38K in 0 mitigation Magick Only shields in the best possible circumstances?

jelliedsoup

How is selecting shield and them whatever dps you have skullful? or if things really get tough bolt escape.

jelliedsoup

I'm curious what mitagate\self heals do people think stam nbs have?

I'm guessing most will stick with the roll dodge and rallies heal. Neither of these are nb skills.

Xsorus

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

I already told ya that you'd need around 4k stamina recovery to perma dodge roll, then we get into the fact that GDB eats a lot of mana and Harness Magicka (Why he was using something like that, which will at best in a stamina build absorb 3k damage vs Shuffle i'll never under) which also eats a lot of mana...i don't see how its possible...Now if he was close to a keep sure..I can dodge roll a few times myself...But its not forever like you stated.

Xsorus

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Why do people keep calling them damage shields? They are wards. A damage shield is something that reflects damage. The wards cause no damage.

You don't know how much that has bothered me for the longest time.

They should be called Absorb Shields.

Glurin

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm curious what mitagate\self heals do people think stam nbs have?

I'm guessing most will stick with the roll dodge and rallies heal. Neither of these are nb skills.

NBs have Strife, and it's so OP. Needs nerf badly. Can't ever kill NB because he just heals up to full every time he hits me. They stack stamina and wear medium armor so they can cast it infinite times too. /sarcasm

Maulkin

jelliedsoup wrote: »

I'm curious what mitagate\self heals do people think stam nbs have?

I'm guessing most will stick with the roll dodge and rallies heal. Neither of these are nb skills.

All the classes were designed for Magicka at launch, which led to the huge imbalance issue we all know. That's not specific to NBs.

Currently you have heals from Rally, Killer's Blade, Leeching Strikes and depending on your level Vigor. You also have skills for damage avoidance like Blur, Shadow Image, and enough magicka for 1-2 casts of Cloak. Not to mention your passive dodge chance from Medium Armor and the ability to dodge roll and dodge-cast.

The end result is, that you have options aplenty, some from your class tree and some from other skill lines. Good stamina NBs are strong as feck. The good NB stamina duelists in our EU PvP guild (Arena) certainly seem more than capable of melting my shields and driving me out of stamina (shout out to Liberate)

Samadhi

MADshadowman wrote: »

AltusVenifus wrote: »

MADshadowman wrote: »

Bouvin wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

Fix infinite roll dodging and wrecking blow spam builds, then come talk about sorcs shield-stacking k?



Every class has a way to mitigate/absorb damage, and have great survivability. Learn them. Then learn how to counter them.

Except for Nightblade. And don't even start with "but cloak"... since cloak has been broken for about a year now.

Yeah, i see how broken it is. disappearing after every hit, running through groups invisible, cloaking out of a meteor and so many other things. this "cloak is broken" is getting really really old now.

Play around with it on PTS, if you think it is awesome. It is not.

i played a nightblade for a couple weeks and i didn't feel like cloak was broken. Could do awesome things with it. I don't know why so many nightblades say it's not working. Maybe they don't know how to use it? Maybe they are expecting too much? We will never know.

Think that most Nightblades are expecting it to get them out of melee range safely, which normally does not work.
Also, the general distaste for its functionality seems to come from Stamina builds which can only cast it 2-3 times.
On a full Magicka build, my Nightblade gets almost as much utility out of Cloak as my Sorcerer gets from Bolt (which performs slightly better, but also has higher cost to make up for that increased performance capability).

Ezareth

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

I already told ya that you'd need around 4k stamina recovery to perma dodge roll, then we get into the fact that GDB eats a lot of mana and Harness Magicka (Why he was using something like that, which will at best in a stamina build absorb 3k damage vs Shuffle i'll never under) which also eats a lot of mana...i don't see how its possible...Now if he was close to a keep sure..I can dodge roll a few times myself...But its not forever like you stated.

I guess I'll have to make some video evidence to prove you wrong then. You know as well as I know that you don't need anywhere near 4K stamina recovery to perma-dodge roll. You can get the cost of a single dodge roll down to 1741, possibly less if there are any set bonuses that reduce it as well (not sure).

The protection offered by dodge roll lasts between 1.5 and 2 seconds. I know this because it takes at least 2 seconds after someone dodge rolls on me before my mages wrath will land and I'll often miss 2-3 wraths from a single dodge roll (I'll have to test this to find out exactly).

Let's say Dodge roll is only 1.5 (I think it is longer) that means you need 2321 Stamina regen with *no* tri-pots involved at max mitigation to "permaroll". With tri-pots (or even just stamina pots) this becomes far easier.

I know for a fact I was able to create a VR14 Template on the PTS who was able to permaroll. Even without the crappy pots they give you I could dodge roll somewhere between 15-20 times. (I'll have to retest).

Even if you don't have max reduction or insane stamina regen, with only 40 champion points in dodge roll reduction, full medium armor and 3 stamina reduction enchants your dodge roll costs you 1952. Chain chugging tri-stats while you're dodge rolling allows you to only need around 1800 stamina regen or less which is easy to do for anyone wearing Medium armor and using drinks.

k2blader

jelliedsoup wrote: »

How is selecting shield and them whatever dps you have skullful? or if things really get tough bolt escape.

It's not as simple as that and I'm sure you know that but refuse to be reasonable because you're peevish about your own class "not having it so easy." If you claim to actually believe what you posted, then you need to level up a sorc and learn a bit.

Your posts make me wonder what it is you're doing so wrong versus sorcs. Maybe you can 'splain so folks can help you, give you some tips.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Galalin wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Why do people keep calling them damage shields? They are wards. A damage shield is something that reflects damage. The wards cause no damage.

Thats your big argument?

Well then i guess wards are ok then

DK SCRUB OUT

It's not an argument, it's just not what they are. They only absorb damage, thus they are a ward.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Ezareth wrote: »

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

ToRelax wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

olsborg wrote: »

Those sorcs that shieldstack can be a pain to kill, yes, just remove the shieldstacking, diminishing returns or whatever, only 1 shield active at any one time...something like that. (this is true for every class with a class shield + harness/dampen magicka btw.)

sure bring medium armor down to dmg mitigation values LA provides while HA dmg gets reduced to resemble the dmg a LA user can do to them while blocking, then you can take a way all the shields you like.

I only use hardened ward and I do fine. If I shieldstacked aswell, it just becomes ridiculous.

There is nothing to *stack*. Ok so you're going to throw Harness Magicka or Dampen Magick on top of your Hardened Ward? Great. The problem is 80% of the damage in Cyrodiil right now is coming from 2handers and Bows and neither of those weapons care that you're using Harness magicka. Good luck knowing how much actual shield value you have remaining on your hardened ward while you're using either of those. That's why I've completely dropped the abilities.

Are you going to "Stack" healing ward? It is the most expensive of the shields, it lasts a whopping four seconds and it gives you a real *fat* shield to "Stack" at 4K if you've dumped your entire warrior tree champion points into Bastion. Healing Ward is only good when used reactively after some fool with a bow just took you within an inch of your life through your shields and you're dodge rolling for everything you're worth. Only then does the shield value it gives make it worth the cast.

So no "Shield stacking" doesn't make anyone ridiculous, it makes you dead.

Thats your perspective, and I respect it, but my perspective is that class shields + dampen/harness makes a ridiculous shield vs magicka. Sorry that I didnt specify this in the previous post, I tought it obvious given that light armor shield only works vs magicka skills. Lets say I fight a magicka nb, I put on hardened ward(12k shield) then put dampen magicka over that (shield now becomes 30kish) Call me oldfashioned, but I find that lame.

First let's get your numbers straight. The average sorc running Hardened Ward in Cyrodiil right now has 8-9K on their Hardened Ward. I'm only able to get just over 10K on my hardened ward with over 40 champion points into a single passive called Bastion right now and stacking full VR14 legendary gear with legendary magicka enchants, VR14 magicka rings, and all of my attributes into magicka. This gives me just under 28K magicka. Most sorcs in Cyrodiil aren't nearly as stacked as I am nor do they have as many champion points etc. My Harness Magicka is just under 12K so I'm able to "Stack" 22K in 100% unmitigatable shields against a Magicka nightblade. If I'm running Dampen I get another 3.6K. I've run into @Sypher a couple of times in Cyrodiil so far while playing his magicka nightblade and both times our fight ended up with me dead. Magicka nightblades right now when actually played by a skilled player are an absolute terror to fight. Am I out calling for a nerf to nightblades because I was killed or found this one hard for me to kill? No, I just do my best to learn from every encounter and instead of trying the same exact strategy *harder* I try to actually modify my strategy and if need be my build.

*Everything* in the game can be countered.

Lava_Croft wrote: »

I want to note that the term 'glass cannon' when talking about Magicka stacking Sorcerers is a bit of a joke.

That's true. Glass slingshot maybe. Or glass Slinky more likely.

You sure the Hardened Ward is only 10k, so you did count the morph?

Because it should actually be higher than your Harness Magicka.

Yes I know to multiply the tooltip value by .33% to get the actual hardened ward value. The same is true of Dampen Magick.

It is possible that I'm mentally remembering Dampen Magicka with 7 pieces of light armor as 12K however in which case Harness Magicka would only be 8500 which makes sense.

I know that when I calculated my maximum magicka "shield stack" values, my hardened was just over 10K, My harness or Dampen was 12K and my healing ward was 4K (which if you're under 30% health when you cast it makes it 16K).

So nothing seems wrong about a 38k damage shield that is recastable?

Hmmm idk about that

The hardened ward is only that high when you're extremely low health and the ward itself heals you to prevent it receiving the bonus permanently.

Let me put it in these terms for you is spending 8000+ magicka(1/3 of most sorcs mana bar) worth 38K in 0 mitigation Magick Only shields in the best possible circumstances?

I think you're mixing up Hardened Ward with Healing Ward. Everyone has access to Healing Ward.

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Why do people keep calling them damage shields? They are wards. A damage shield is something that reflects damage. The wards cause no damage.

You don't know how much that has bothered me for the longest time.

They should be called Absorb Shields.

Every other game calls them Wards, even other TES games. The people complaining about them for some reason decided to rename them. I'm guessing either because they don't know any better or they simply thought it strengthened their argument. But honestly if you call them the wrong thing then it only shows you really don't know much about them.

Ezareth

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

I think you're mixing up Hardened Ward with Healing Ward. Everyone has access to Healing Ward.

Yeah had a typo thanks.

Galalin

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

You cant deal stupid amounts of dameage durning dodge roll... how can you even compare it? If anything it only compares to BoL and i bet you dont complain when you BoL away from 3 ppl+ on a regular basis

DK SCRUB OUT

Soulac

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

You cant deal stupid amounts of dameage durning dodge roll... how can you even compare it? If anything it only compares to BoL and i bet you dont complain when you BoL away from 3 ppl+ on a regular basis

DK SCRUB OUT

Light Attack + Skill + Dodge
Deals a lot of dmg and you're untouchable.
With 3k Stamina Reg as cat I can hold this up for a 'few' seconds.

Ezareth

Galalin wrote: »

Ezareth wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

You got a 15% nerf on already more powerful shields the before, and you can completely negate it by taking points into the cp line, so all and all you got a buff. Complaining about mitigation when you have a shield thay you can cast over and over is pointless, it's insanely poweful, also crit surge got a nerf in pve, it got a buff in pvp since you can now actually crit people in pvp, so don't try and pretend you suffer from healing, esp when you can stack healing ward after hardened ward.

As dodging forever and attacking forever as a stamina user, this is false, the only setup that can do this is a bosmer nightblade, and by doing it you will completely forgoe any weapon damage, which means you will not be able to break through any sorcs shields.

Same with blocking, you can't do that forever either as a single crushing shock will eat about 3k stamina while blocking, you'll be drained of stamina In seconds.

Blocking and shields are also not comparable because you can have endless resources to shield, but blocking requires a silly about of stamina right now.

Maybe 3 or 4 people in the game are completely negating the shield nerf at the moment.

Your understanding of dodgeroll simply isn't true. Just this morning me and 2 other sorcs were chasing a single DK who dodge rolled for a minute straight and the entire time all 3 of us were casting a rotation of Velocious Curse and Mana Detonation on the DK(which are the only abilities we can use that can't be dodged besides streak). We're talking about 6 spells hitting this guy every few seconds and he perma-dodge rolled and chain cast GDB and harness magicka nonstop *while* rolling. Finally he made it to a keep door and walked inside.

You're forgetting that running Tri-stat pots 100% of the time when needed is pretty easy for any good player. With Tri-stat chugging and the 20% stamina regen they offer, Medium armor, and 3 Stam cost reduction glyphs it's actually quite easy.

I'll agree with you on the block except under certain setups that are generally useless in PvP.

You cant deal stupid amounts of dameage durning dodge roll... how can you even compare it? If anything it only compares to BoL and i bet you dont complain when you BoL away from 3 ppl+ on a regular basis

DK SCRUB OUT

If I'm bolt escaping I'm not doing damage. I died this morning to 3 crit charge rushers. I started with full shields and health. Got stunned. Broke free. The second crit charge hit me. I spammed my bolt escape key and it wouldn't cast. The third crit charge hit me, I'm still spamming bolt escape and it wouldn't cast. I died. That crap happens all day long in cyrodiil. I did every to the best of my abilities instantly broke free of the stun, even popped a potion right after. Yet dodge roll always works where a bolt escape does not. I don't know if it is a bug with crit charge, or just lag or whatever but a crit charge train right now instagibs me every time.

You can't really compare my playstyle as I play on the *edge* of combat, not in the middle of it which is one of the only reasons I survive when I do. As soon as more than 1 person with a bow *that I see* so much as sneezes in my direction I tuck tail and run. I always keep maximum distance because that's the only way I survive. When I get in the middle of 3 good people I die. No ifs ands or buts and no amount of bolt escaping will save me if they're good. The same happens when I see a sorc trying to get in the middle of things (if he's a caster, if he's a stamina sorc he can dodge roll his way to safety). I focus him and he dies....every time (unless he's an exploiter or wearing full heavy armor with ball of lightning ).