- = Sorcs were not nerfed = -

BugCollector · March 2015

Have you ever tried to duel with a sorc as a magicka based templar? You'll lose against the sorc...

pugyourself · March 2015

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

reften · March 2015

ZOS_GaryA wrote: »

Hey there folks,

We understand that sorcerers are a heated point of discussion right now, but we ask that the discussion stays related to the topic's original intention. Personal jabs don't add anything constructive to the thread and only serve to derail the discussion. We'd love to be sure everyone's opinion is heard, but please be respectful of other points of view when adding your own. Thanks for your understanding!

I really don't think the team understands what DPS means. Either tank/healer builds have too high of DPS, or DPS builds are too low.

Something has to give.

Hypertionb14_ESO · March 2015

Dymence wrote: »

Hypertionb14_ESO wrote: »

crystal shard still sucks and now is worse off since its closest compairison was solar flare whcih was buffed to the *** moon.

Really? What do you base it on that crystal shard still sucks? My crystal frags can hit for 24k+ on crits.

Solar Flare

Crystal Shard

Both have the same cast time..

Solar Flare has better base damage with a identical stat build, and has the empower effect which can be used to boost your next flare... its basically magicka Wrecking Blow.

I did ALOT of testing with this on PTS... and i was happy to see Solar Flare be upgraded to where it honestly should be... inline with skills like snipe and Uppercut (wrecking blow)

but Crystal Shard has remained exactly the same and needs the same love. Fragments now do 20% extra damage on the proc but the entire effect is still much worse off than Solar Flare. nice instant cast and half cost is still good for pvp but the base skill is still underpowered in terms of balance and the Crystal Blast Morph is stupidly misbalanced.

so boost the base damage of Shard to be compairable or 5% better than Solar Flare. Flare will still be better in a spammed, but procs will be slightly stronger.

Give Crystal Blast a 10% boost in base damage and improved cast time, I suggest (0.8) seconds.

this would make blast compairable to Dark Flare in DPS when used straight, but for differant reasons. and both will still have 2 unqiue effects to set them apart (Dark Flare reducing Healing in a AOE and buffing next attack and Blast Knocking down main target and doing Half damage as a AOE)

Sorcerer has the DOT skills that they can get away with Crystal Shard Being slightly weaker, and can make up the differance with Lightning Splash or Pets. so the damage potential of shard itself can be less than Solar Flare at its base.

TehMagnus · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have missed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

pugyourself · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

TehMagnus · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

pugyourself · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is still debate about PVE sorcs bein nerfed or not, they are extremely good in PVP at the moment. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

The title is designed simply to stop the endless, tiresome and unfounded constant whining from people who prefer to complain instead of Learning how to Play because others are obviously succeeding at it, and I don't see the difference between this OP title and the one from the post" Sorcs where nerfed... again". I don't see you either posting over there on your holly white horse defending the honor of ZOS developers that are being provoked by a couple of angry people.

The problem for the vast majority of players though, is that it IS just about numbers. While you are may be at the top of the leaderboards (probably not with your sorc), the average player has a very tough time getting daily groups because everyone DOES focus solely on the numbers. Or on the class. So for those who run their main as a Sorc DPS, it's not easy to get a group. Because the numbers generally stink when compared to other classes.

For someone with a microphone as large as yours, it would have been more constructive to say "Sorcs still stink but they weren't nerfed." The title has the potential to simply confirm to ZOS and others that nothing needs to change with the class. The point of the Sorc complaint threads has been to compare the class to other classes that are much more powerful, have better and cheaper self heals, and were buffed at the same time that the most useful sorc skills were nerfed. If Sorcs received some buffs and self heals in the last update, I don't think you'd be seeing those threads.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

TehMagnus · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

The problem for the vast majority of players though, is that it IS just about numbers. While you are may be at the top of the leaderboards (probably not with your sorc), the average player has a very tough time getting daily groups because everyone DOES focus solely on the numbers. Or on the class. So for those who run their main as a Sorc DPS, it's not easy to get a group. Because the numbers generally stink when compared to other classes.

For someone with a microphone as large as yours, it would have been more constructive to say "Sorcs still stink but they weren't nerfed." The title has the potential to simply confirm to ZOS and others that nothing needs to change with the class. The point of the Sorc complaint threads has been to compare the class to other classes that are much more powerful, have better and cheaper self heals, and were buffed at the same time that the most useful sorc skills were nerfed. If Sorcs received some buffs and self heals in the last update, I don't think you'd be seeing those threads.

It's not easy to get a group because people see there are no sorcs on leaderboards and thus think sorcs are useless and thus don't invite them, this is general "sorc phobia" that @pppontus has been criticizing since before 1.6 and has prooved to be unfounded since his raids had sorcs. It's not easy to get a group because people think that 1.6 is exactly as 1.5 and also because of all the people like you who claim the class still sucks. If i'm a random player thinking "maybe sorcs are better now", I come in the forum, and all I see is "sorc got nerfed" "sorc still sucks", "buff sorc more" threads, you can be sure I'm not going to want any in my groups. In the end with your posts, you're hurting your own cause.

I'm not going to say sorcs still stink, they don't and it would be an insult to the numerous number of players who like the class and have had fun playing it again since 1.6. And yeah, ZOS shouldn't change the class. Once again, no raiding guild has done serious raiding and it is too soon to tell if sorc needs more buffs or is fine as is, so I will not indulge the cry for buffs from players who have become used to complaining about their class being weak and are clearly not giving the revamp or the new leaderboard system a chance to even be tested.

If the new leaderboard isn't working as I think it is and as I think Zenimax designed it, and sorcs end up being not needed to achieve good scores, then I'll be the on the train to change the leaderboards point calculations to force groups to take sorcs because it actually can be done that way.

pugyourself · March 2015

Maybe that would work for the top groups but it's not going to fix the situation for the guy in Wayrest looking to do a daily.

Other classes received numerous buffs over the last few updates. Sorcs did not.

I question the purpose of this thread. Truly. It seems to serve no purpose other than to agitate and pour salt in the wounds of thousands of players who feel like their class has been decimated relative to other classes.

TehMagnus · March 2015

pugyourself wrote: »

Maybe that would work for the top groups but it's not going to fix the situation for the guy in Wayrest looking to do a daily.

Other classes received numerous buffs over the last few updates. Sorcs did not.

I question the purpose of this thread. Truly. It seems to serve no purpose other than to agitate and pour salt in the wounds of thousands of players who feel like their class has been decimated relative to other classes.

Name DK and nightblade buffs please.

- Dks where the most nerfed class in 1.6 and they've basically only been nerfed since game launch.

- Nightblades are not better, not worse than before IMO, (stamina seems strong though but that was already the case in 1.5), some of their core class abilities are still completely broken though.

- Templar healers got nerfed (BOL nerf), templar DPS is now quite good, especially on stamina.

- Sorcs got an overall class revamp and some of the new builds are competitive with NBs and DKs. I would agree they can't compete with templars though, since templar really feels OP at the moment. Its still an improvement from being the worst of all.

And it will fix the situation for the guy in Wayrest since he will see that sorcs are clearing end game content just like other classes. The guy in Wayrest didn't magically realize that sorcs sucked prior to 1.6, he saw what other groups where doing and what sorcs where doing. It will be the same in 1.6.

Edit: Oh and current sorc has more than enough DPs and survivability to clear any content in the game, so the guy refusing to take a sorc in Wayrest is just an id***

Dazin93 · March 2015

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

TehMagnus · March 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

I already have the badge.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/ <= 12K DPs
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/ <= 11k DPS
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ <=12K DPS with 70 CP (so a couple K more I suppose with 90 & crit bonus)

These values are on par with most current magicka builds and are probably not fully optimized, there is also a strong chance people with even better builds are not sharing them, after all it took us months to release our exact FOO build for DKs.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/sorcerer-class/ <= A place to discuss builds & learn instead of complaining about imaginary nerfs.

Vahrokh · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

If the new leaderboard isn't working as I think it is and as I think Zenimax designed it, and sorcs end up being not needed to achieve good scores, then I'll be the on the train to change the leaderboards point calculations to force groups to take sorcs because it actually can be done that way.

I have not done a sorc-less HR run yet, but in AA as I posted earlier it's plenty possible even now to do what's needed with 1 sorc. The process of slowly removing sorcs from raids needed many months pre-1.6, yet now just a couple of days past patch 1.6 it's already possible to do with just one.

Once people will get appropriate CPs and the new "raiding docrine" will have settled in, then bye bye need to negate. You'll always want templars, they bring in nova etc, so the next step at min maxing is to remove the inefficiencies.

Also, today I have played for 6 hours. The "anti-sorc stigma" has already settled in. I have seen all the tricks being used, like: "magic DPS LFG...", "mage LFG...", "Light armor DPS LFG..."... everything to avoid saying the class name, hoping they get you in the group first, and then feel embarassed enough at kicking you that they give you a chance.

Also, as many say, very few even care about the forums. People won't get affected by some threads ZoS quickly buries in some obscure sub-forum anyway. But takes very little to understand, to the MANY that PUG every day to consistently experience a class with low health, that dies in 2 hits to any VR mob, that used to at least be versatile and sturdy to make up for the low DPS and now can't even do that. The "random guys consensus" will greatly affect the ability of sorc players to enjoy the game, expecially since Craplorn has been made with that dumb "MUST GROUP" mentality.

I REALLY hope to be wrong here. Because ZoS has indeed your approach: "let's make months and months pass doing nothing, then if they REALLY are screwed, we'll buff some marginal skill. Maybe".

TehMagnus · March 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

If the new leaderboard isn't working as I think it is and as I think Zenimax designed it, and sorcs end up being not needed to achieve good scores, then I'll be the on the train to change the leaderboards point calculations to force groups to take sorcs because it actually can be done that way.

I have not done a sorc-less HR run yet, but in AA as I posted earlier it's plenty possible even now to do what's needed with 1 sorc. The process of slowly removing sorcs from raids needed many months pre-1.6, yet now just a couple of days past patch 1.6 it's already possible to do with just one.

Once people will get appropriate CPs and the new "raiding docrine" will have settled in, then bye bye need to negate. You'll always want templars, they bring in nova etc, so the next step at min maxing is to remove the inefficiencies.

Also, today I have played for 6 hours. The "anti-sorc stigma" has already settled in. I have seen all the tricks being used, like: "magic DPS LFG...", "mage LFG...", "Light armor DPS LFG..."... everything to avoid saying the class name, hoping they get you in the group first, and then feel embarassed enough at kicking you that they give you a chance.

Also, as many say, very few even care about the forums. People won't get affected by some threads ZoS quickly buries in some obscure sub-forum anyway. But takes very little to understand, to the MANY that PUG every day to consistently experience a class with low health, that dies in 2 hits to any VR mob, that used to at least be versatile and sturdy to make up for the low DPS and now can't even do that.

I REALLY hope to be wrong here. Because ZoS has indeed your approach: "let's make months and months pass doing nothing, then if they REALLY are screwed, we'll buff some marginal skill. Maybe".

Well just because people are stu*** it doesn't justify asking for buffs on a class that doesn't need them nor implies that the class has been nerfed.

Edit: moreover I highly doubt that most of the players in pug runs are pulling 11-12k dps on bosses from what I've been told people link DPS from 4 to 7k most of the time, so anyone pulling that kind of DPS is likely better than half of the other people in the raid.

Dazin93 · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

I already have the badge.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/ <= 12K DPs
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/ <= 11k DPS
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ <=12K DPS with 70 CP (so a couple K more I suppose with 90 & crit bonus)

These values are on par with most current magicka builds and are probably not fully optimized, there is also a strong chance people with even better builds are not sharing them, after all it took us months to release our exact FOO build for DKs.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/sorcerer-class/ <= A place to discuss builds & learn instead of complaining about imaginary nerfs.

Yep, and not a single one of those is a stamina sorc build which happens to be what I have been discussing. Go play a stamina sorc in PvP for 6+ months as I have, then you can come back and have an intelligent discussion on what sorcs need or don't need. Enjoy your DK and congrats on your post achievement?

kokoandshinb14a_ESO · March 2015

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

If the new leaderboard isn't working as I think it is and as I think Zenimax designed it, and sorcs end up being not needed to achieve good scores, then I'll be the on the train to change the leaderboards point calculations to force groups to take sorcs because it actually can be done that way.

I have not done a sorc-less HR run yet, but in AA as I posted earlier it's plenty possible even now to do what's needed with 1 sorc. The process of slowly removing sorcs from raids needed many months pre-1.6, yet now just a couple of days past patch 1.6 it's already possible to do with just one.

Once people will get appropriate CPs and the new "raiding docrine" will have settled in, then bye bye need to negate. You'll always want templars, they bring in nova etc, so the next step at min maxing is to remove the inefficiencies.

Also, today I have played for 6 hours. The "anti-sorc stigma" has already settled in. I have seen all the tricks being used, like: "magic DPS LFG...", "mage LFG...", "Light armor DPS LFG..."... everything to avoid saying the class name, hoping they get you in the group first, and then feel embarassed enough at kicking you that they give you a chance.

Also, as many say, very few even care about the forums. People won't get affected by some threads ZoS quickly buries in some obscure sub-forum anyway. But takes very little to understand, to the MANY that PUG every day to consistently experience a class with low health, that dies in 2 hits to any VR mob, that used to at least be versatile and sturdy to make up for the low DPS and now can't even do that. The "random guys consensus" will greatly affect the ability of sorc players to enjoy the game, expecially since Craplorn has been made with that dumb "MUST GROUP" mentality.

I REALLY hope to be wrong here. Because ZoS has indeed your approach: "let's make months and months pass doing nothing, then if they REALLY are screwed, we'll buff some marginal skill. Maybe".

Ok-- again if people have to wait to gain a measurable amount of CP to make a class viable, then that wait may be too long for many people.

Its my understanding that CPs take a long, long time to grind, therefore most of the newer sorcerer player base may be turned off by this and move to classes that have their power spikes much earlier.

tinythinker · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work

I am using the same build.

I only started playing Sorc about a month or so ago and spent level 12-50 leveling up in PvP, so I'm only VR7 and don't have a Trials build, and therefore I cannot speak to that aspect of the game. Yet for basic questing PvE I see no difference - still soloing dolmens and world bosses in Cadwell's Silver and Gold. Perhaps it is certain areas of the game where people feel there is a nerf, but being so new to the class I have little for comparison. Interestingly enough, my VR14 Templar also has the same gear/bars and still works the same, except that I swap Radiant Oppression for Dark Flare in many situations.

TehMagnus · March 2015

Dazin93 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

I already have the badge.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/ <= 12K DPs
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/ <= 11k DPS
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ <=12K DPS with 70 CP (so a couple K more I suppose with 90 & crit bonus)

These values are on par with most current magicka builds and are probably not fully optimized, there is also a strong chance people with even better builds are not sharing them, after all it took us months to release our exact FOO build for DKs.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/sorcerer-class/ <= A place to discuss builds & learn instead of complaining about imaginary nerfs.

Yep, and not a single one of those is a stamina sorc build which happens to be what I have been discussing. Go play a stamina sorc in PvP for 6+ months as I have, then you can come back and have an intelligent discussion on what sorcs need or don't need. Enjoy your DK and congrats on your post achievement?

Stamina Sorc is current PVP king, if it's not working for you, you must be doing something wrong. And you've been having this discussion mainly with yourself since this post is about PVE sorcs, not PVP sorcs who are clearly OP.

6 months + seems like an utter waste of your time if you're failing at your main class when most of others are succeeding and loving it

LegacyDM · March 2015

Nerfed my ass. I'm beginning to see sorcs taking unlimited damage with perm shields and unlimited magicka bolting all over the place. Just watch any of king Richards videos and that's the norm on thornblade!

Valymer · March 2015

joshdm2001_ESO wrote: »

Nerfed my ass. I'm beginning to see sorcs taking unlimited damage with perm shields and unlimited magicka bolting all over the place. Just watch any of king Richards videos and that's the norm on thornblade!

Here we go again with someone who can't understand the difference between PvE and PvP issues.

Joy_Division · March 2015

What the OP fails to understand is that most sorcerers have SPECIFIC complaints about the mechanics of the class more so than GENERAL nerfs.

Sorc have been asking for a class-based heal since April. Begging for one. The only skill that could be characterized as one, surge, was in fact nerfed in every conceivable fashion (heals less, less additional damage, limited number of heals, buff doesn't stack, et al) and is now unreliable because a small dot can steal a much needed big heal.

ZoS's latest convoluted "solution," was to tie the heal to the Clannfear dying/despawning, which is even more awkward and cumbersome than the old surge method. The only person I have seen even try to argue this was advantageous was, like the OP, a player whose main was a DK.

Go ahead ppontus, post your screenshots with your select high-end gear and your high-end fellow tanks who never lose aggro and healers who always debuff the target with stacking elemental drain so you don't run out of magicka. Those do nothing to address the concerns sorc have with their clunky and unreliable class-based heals

Many sorcs are annoyed with the amount of toggles needed for a pet build to work, not to mention that ZoS has put so much of the sorc's power in these pets that you can't use in encounters like the Mage or Mantikora to begin with.

Sorcs have also asked for a single target damage spell from their own class line that can complement a rotation. Frags and curse are niche spells that have limited application. Sorcs thus have to look elsewhere. And that is another common complaint with sorcs - their skills are outclassed by comparable one in other line: talons > encase. Spell symmetry > dark exchange. entropy >> surge

Emma_Overload · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

There's a horrible OMISSION in your argument. You forgot to mention the BIGGEST NERF of all: the cooldown that was added to Surge!

You talk about overall usefulness, but you know what? The most useful players, regardless of class, are going to be the ones with the most CP points. And guess who will have the most CP points... players who can grind MASSIVE numbers of mobs as quickly as possible, that's who!

Now do you see the problem with the Surge cooldown? A Sorc who could easily grind 12 or even 20 mobs at once in 1.5 without dying might only be able to grind 6 or 8 now. That's a HUGE difference.

As someone who plays a Sorc every day for 6 hours a day, I can tell you that your argument is a load of nonsense. Maybe you're used to having your @ss covered by a couple of healers and a tank all the time, but every Sorc out there who relied on the self-sufficiency that Critical Surge gave us knows that we got nerfed HARD.

Vahrokh · March 2015

TehMagnus wrote: »

Well just because people are stu*** it doesn't justify asking for buffs on a class that doesn't need them nor implies that the class has been nerfed.

Edit: moreover I highly doubt that most of the players in pug runs are pulling 11-12k dps on bosses from what I've been told people link DPS from 4 to 7k most of the time, so anyone pulling that kind of DPS is likely better than half of the other people in the raid.

- It's known you can't fix stu***.

- The party leader who shall decide whether to invite a class or not, will have a "memory", a "collective randoms experience" based on hundreds of Gold Key runs made with random sorcs and just a few made with 12k sorcs.

All he needs to know is: "most templars do XYZ", "most DKs do XYZ" and similar, he won't care for the one outlier super-guy.

Basically, WoW has teached a massive lesson to everybody in terms of attracting millions of casuals / randoms: you give them a class that "plays by itself" and gear that determines their performance and only then they are happy.

These become the "baseline stats" upon which party leaders take decisions, not reading a forum thread where a worldwide top guild guy states he or his friends can be an outlier.

Therefore they won't decide upon what you or I write but what's their experience playing with baddies like them.

I used to be totally on the hard core side of things (had friends in Nihilum, played in a top #10 world kills guild...) but that was 10 years ago.
Now, sadly, due to many factors I got way closer to the random guy than the Hodor guy, I *smell* how they think.

With the horrible sorc performance history, just to even consider a sorc in a group, those should have had such massively huge sorc PvE buffs that any random guy would be hard slapped in the face with those buffs and would drill them in their opinionated (by months of crappy sorc performance) skull.
I dare say that even you admit there weren't "massively huge PvE buffs" to make that happen.

Vahrokh · March 2015

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

Ok-- again if people have to wait to gain a measurable amount of CP to make a class viable, then that wait may be too long for many people.

Its my understanding that CPs take a long, long time to grind, therefore most of the newer sorcerer player base may be turned off by this and move to classes that have their power spikes much earlier.

There's also this tiny detail, where the other classes too gain CPs over time, so if gaining CPs is some magic recipe to close the gap, then good luck convincing templars etc. to stop gaining their CP so you can get there with them.

pppontus · March 2015

#negateisnotuseless #sorclove

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCFFSELXzE

Ok.. I thought it was fun at least.

Have been having some great fun with a double sorc dps team lately!

pppontus · March 2015

And yes, the biggest issue of all in regards to Sorcs is the stupid belief from people that they are bad.

I have to correct people all the time, because they forget this is not update 5.

If we put level of skill into numbers 1-10 , an 8 sorc will beat any other 7. A 10 DK will beat all 9s. An equally skilled DK in me lee WILL beat a sorc, yes, but that is well compensated by us never ever having to stop any of our dps when moving. As I said in another thread, a sorc beat everyone including both magicka and stamina DKs in a hel ra run yesterday.

I've already explained that surge without a cooldown was the most OP skill that existed in this game, so I am not going into that again.

Exactly as TehMagnus says, by posting all these NERF threads and crying you are all just making this problem worse for everyone as you make people think Sorcs are bad when they are not anymore. So if you get excluded, maybe look at how you caused that yourselves.

jircris11 · March 2015

I remember when people played a class because they liked it. It did not mater if it was "weak" so long as they enjoyed it. Now days it seems to be all about the big numbers and that is not what a game is about. Games are meant to relax and forget your stress of the day not stress over that extra 10k dmg your not getting.

Vahrokh · March 2015

pppontus wrote: »

Exactly as TehMagnus says, by posting all these NERF threads and crying you are all just making this problem worse for everyone as you make people think Sorcs are bad when they are not anymore. So if you get excluded, maybe look at how you caused that yourselves.

If forums were the easy and sure way to convince actual players, you'd see a lot more success in the many "sway opinion" campaigns happened in the last 20 years.

Nope. One day players... play and find out that in example the flaunted "DAoC reborn PvP game" can't sustain more than 40 people at a time.
One day players... play and then the $100M AAA title ends B2P before a year.

One day players... play and then they'll find out if a class is good or bad. No talking on the forums will change that.

Plus there's skill checks. Let's say that if even a moron can make his DK / templar effective to 90% of its capacity while it takes an Hodor player or similar to do the same on another class, then I doubt that class will earn lots of popularity within the general playerbase. Even if that class true potential was above DK / templars!

As I said already, I sincerely hope to be wrong. I happen to actually have invested 1 year of my life into this.