- = Sorcs were not nerfed = -

Tankqull

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It takes all but 10 minutes of PvPing to figure out Sorcs aren't nerfed...but rather should be.

There is no counter to Shield Stacking right now

it takes all about 5 minutes of pvp to figure out DKs are still the kings of the battlefield and deserve some heavy nerfing to be brought back in line. as there is absolutly no counter to a DK at all.

kelly.medleyb14_ESO

I am a sorc. I am over powered.

Vahrokh

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

my clanfear still tanks world bosses nicely. I have soloed all but two world bosses in DC and also soled every DC public dungeon. Specs do have an awesome heal. Dark exchange not only restores health but magicka as well.

Are you using healing on clanfear? Because I have every passive trained (including most heavy armor ones), am using ward for him, yet it still dies fairly quick vs bosses.

Blade_07

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

NOOOOOOOOOO................they was nerfed and I know that for sure!!! I loved morphed impulse because it would kill multiple enemies pretty fast. Now I die if I just use impulse only where as before it killed them fast enough!

Snit

Vahrokh wrote: »

Therefore ZoS will run statistics. They will find out how in a couple of months everybody and their dog are wearing the immutable "Martial + Adroitness (with the exact neck piece to concentrate one more +spell damage set bonus in as few set pieces as possible) + Turog + Cyrodil Light I win combo.

Vahrokh, I think you are perhaps borrowing a bit of trouble:

- Not everyone will use +damage sets. It's higher DPS than stacking magicka or stamina, but the base resource pools add more survivability. Also, when you get beyond the top tier of players running trials, the vast majority of the player base likes gear with sustain. Seducer, Magnus and Warlock are really popular, and they'll remain so
- There's no indication that ZOS is going to nerf MK or Cyrodiil rings
- If they do nerf the general availability of +damage gear, it will effect everyone, not just sorcs. It's not like DK's best-in-slot DPS gear is 5xSeducer

I think a far more likely result is that the trials sets will eventually be adjusted to become more desirable for trials.

Erock25

I'm still waiting for @TehMagnus to let us know what this 'most powerful spec in cyrodiil' stamina sorc build he has up his sleeve.

Snit

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It takes all but 10 minutes of PvPing to figure out Sorcs aren't nerfed...but rather should be.

There is no counter to Shield Stacking right now

I find your posts fascinating. You may be the only DK at veteran levels who finds sorcs to be your toughest opponent. You're playing the class that's a hard counter to most sorc builds. Are you somehow managing to bump into Leper, or someone else in a dueling build, in one vs ones, eight times a day?

It's like listening to rock complain that those damned scissors are godlike.

indigoblades

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, globaf.l ner
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

I think sorcs where nerfed and ur post doenst change my view

""But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, globaf.l ner9f)"
Sorcs usefulness in anything other than light armor is much much lot less. I play both a magika sorc and stam 2h/bow sorc .... in magika the sorc must wear light, unlike other classes and the sorc is not an optimal stam class, but i have been learning stam for my sorc since last fall in anticipation of 1.6.

"But Negate was nerfed"
Personally i dont use it much, because it does not effect my playstyle, still its a nerf, with no compensation elsewhere

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
I kind of agree with ur sentiment here except sorcs only had about 3 useful class skills .... Streak & harden ward & crit surge. Crit surge was only useful in pve. the other skill are situtational. streak's usefulness is less with higher cost and effectly faster horses since rapids can be popped while mounted. Harden ward is about the same ... more useful if u max magicka less so if u are stam build. Again crit surge is completly useless now, and should be replaced since degeneration is much better heal and that is available to any class


" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.
Sorc's dps is pathetic except in some strange toggle pet build which is only useful against some bosses and a very strange playing mechanic.... its completely not what people rolled sorcs for.

I havent pvped my sorc in magika yet because 1.6 required me specialize in either magika or stam, so i dont know yet how they are in pvp. Rumor is they are at the same and possibly better for highly skilled players .... But efore gear and enchants and mundus allow me to fulfil both roles (pvp or pve )without paying to respec so that in itself makes me not like 1.6. With softcaps removed and hard ward shield completely dependant on my magika i cant make both stam and magika work without changing attributes.


Too be honest i feel all a sorc is good for is specialized 1v1 tournments possibly (i dont play 1v1, but that is what i have read) and a pet build. I see no role as healer, dps or tank and little utility. My lower level DK face roles content while my sorc needs a specialized buiild and no room for error in excution just to slowly kill stuff and live.

Xsorus

Snit wrote: »

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

It takes all but 10 minutes of PvPing to figure out Sorcs aren't nerfed...but rather should be.

There is no counter to Shield Stacking right now

I find your posts fascinating. You may be the only DK at veteran levels who finds sorcs to be your toughest opponent. You're playing the class that's a hard counter to most sorc builds. Are you somehow managing to bump into Leper, or someone else in a dueling build, in one vs ones, eight times a day?

It's like listening to rock complain that those damned scissors are godlike.

The fact that you think sorcs running around are running dueling builds, and not just regular builds is pretty telling.

The only people who think Sorcs aren't the best class right now in pvp are you board warriors who've not actually pvped in 1.6

I made the challenge to you guys earlier...Make a video of you losing over and over again to a DK in 1.6..Hell I think erock was suppose to be turning on his shadowplay.

I mean bloody christ..you guys are still whining about Wings...

Snit

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

The fact that you think sorcs running around are running dueling builds, and not just regular builds is pretty telling.

The only people who think Sorcs aren't the best class right now in pvp are you board warriors who've not actually pvped in 1.6.

I play a magicka sorc, resto/ destro. I have a pretty good idea of the Sorc-DK matchup. And again, if you find sorcs to be your toughest opponent, you may be the only DK in Cyro who does. You're on the plus side of what is probably the biggest class mismatch in TESO. Maybe don't spec Salad Tongs/ Pom-Poms.

As for playing 1.6, I've gained two+ alliance ranks in Thornblade this week (from 12 to 15) since its release. I'm no PvP genius, but I'm there

Vahrokh

Snit wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Therefore ZoS will run statistics. They will find out how in a couple of months everybody and their dog are wearing the immutable "Martial + Adroitness (with the exact neck piece to concentrate one more +spell damage set bonus in as few set pieces as possible) + Turog + Cyrodil Light I win combo.

Vahrokh, I think you are perhaps borrowing a bit of trouble:

- Not everyone will use +damage sets. It's higher DPS than stacking magicka or stamina, but the base resource pools add more survivability. Also, when you get beyond the top tier of players running trials, the vast majority of the player base likes gear with sustain. Seducer, Magnus and Warlock are really popular, and they'll remain so
- There's no indication that ZOS is going to nerf MK or Cyrodiil rings
- If they do nerf the general availability of +damage gear, it will effect everyone, not just sorcs. It's not like DK's best-in-slot DPS gear is 5xSeducer

I think a far more likely result is that the trials sets will eventually be adjusted to become more desirable for trials.

"Everyone" as in "average Joe" don't create their build. They Google for "elder scroll online sorcerer build" / "pve build". They'll get results from Tamriel Foundry, Deltia's Gaming and these forums. In all 3 they will find the same results: that is +spell damage builds and the +spell damage builds have an high maximum in the combo listed by everybody. The only variations allowed are: +mana save vs +spell damage on jewelry and changing some slots where to fit Martial / Adroitness and Torug's Pact.
There are a couple of "exotic" builds posted but they have very low following - for a reason. They don't add alot in versatility or survivability while they lose a lot in damage.

Also, I have Seducer, Magnus (and most carafted gear, upgraded to gold) and all Warlock set per each slot including jewelry. A mix of it is what I used for months. I have tested them post 1.6... the mana regen is so nerfed that given their much lower damage you may as well go all out spell damage and eventually slot Exchange / Equilibrium. Maybe if foods with +static health + magicka regen drinks could be mixed...

The "if they nerf sets => all will be nerfed" is exactly the point that Pppontus made and that imo it makes a nerf more possible. The more the classes that are optimized by one set, the more urgent becomes to nerf that set to give players true gearing freedom / keep them busy grinding.

TehMagnus

tinythinker wrote: »

I think sorcs where nerfed and ur post doenst change my view

""But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, globaf.l ner9f)"
Sorcs usefulness in anything other than light armor is much much lot less. I play both a magika sorc and stam 2h/bow sorc .... in magika the sorc must wear light, unlike other classes and the sorc is not an optimal stam class, but i have been learning stam for my sorc since last fall in anticipation of 1.6.

Others are getting good results with stamina sorc as I posted before, moreover sorcs can recover stamina easily which makes them totally viable, DKs don't have any skill to restore stamina and are also viable so I see no reason why sorcs wouldn't be. Maybe you should try other armor sets, your failure to play a class doesn't mean it's bad or nerfed. As for LA, I don't know what parallel universe you come from where only magicka sorc has to wear LA. Any class playing magicka has to wear LA.

Once again "I can't make it work so it must suck" sentences.

tinythinker wrote: »

"But Negate was nerfed"
Personally i dont use it much, because it does not effect my playstyle, still its a nerf, with no compensation elsewhere

"No compensation elsewhere", yeah, they ONLY made the class viable in terms of DPS, sucky compensation.

tinythinker wrote: »

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
I kind of agree with ur sentiment here except sorcs only had about 3 useful class skills .... Streak & harden ward & crit surge. Crit surge was only useful in pve. the other skill are situtational. streak's usefulness is less with higher cost and effectly faster horses since rapids can be popped while mounted. Harden ward is about the same ... more useful if u max magicka less so if u are stam build. Again crit surge is completly useless now, and should be replaced since degeneration is much better heal and that is available to any class

Except you should be using Entropy, not degeneration, your healers are supposed to heal you in PVE, not yourself. U got Dark Exchange for stm builds, power surge for extra spell dmg, Lightning slpash to put DoTs, Shard are still pulling good damage if used well, Hardened Ward for PVP, yeah sorcs got nothing going on for them, totally useless abilities.

tinythinker wrote: »

" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.
Sorc's dps is pathetic except in some strange toggle pet build which is only useful against some bosses and a very strange playing mechanic.... its completely not what people rolled sorcs for.

If you where rolling a champ to be powerfull, why you chose sorc and not DK is your problem since DKs where clearly stronger on paper, and sorc DPS isn't pathetic, I saw 10K DPs posted yday in AA which is way more than the pugs are doing with their 4-5k DPS and was only 1k less, 2k less max than the other magicka builds where pulling, which is a lower difference than in 1.5. Stamina builds are better, even on sorc, and will pull more DPS most of the time, especially in close quarter fights.

tinythinker wrote: »

I haven't pvped my sorc in magika yet because 1.6 required me specialize in either magika or stam, so i dont know yet how they are in pvp. Rumor is they are at the same and possibly better for highly skilled players .... But efore gear and enchants and mundus allow me to fulfil both roles (pvp or pve )without paying to respec so that in itself makes me not like 1.6. With softcaps removed and hard ward shield completely dependant on my magika i cant make both stam and magika work without changing attributes.

Once again, personal choice. I've got a Stamina and a Magicka build for my DK and I do the switch when I want to do the testing. Once again it's not a game problem, it's your problem. At last Magicka & stamina are equally viable in PVP even though magicka sorc seems to be veyr op atm.

tinythinker wrote: »

Too be honest i feel all a sorc is good for is specialized 1v1 tournments possibly (i dont play 1v1, but that is what i have read) and a pet build. I see no role as healer, dps or tank and little utility. My lower level DK face roles content while my sorc needs a specialized buiild and no room for error in excution just to slowly kill stuff and live.

That's your personal opinion which is not shared by many sorc players.

TehMagnus

Vahrokh wrote: »

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

The martial KNowledge cyro adroitness is the op combo for all magicka classses.

If there is an ARMOR/GEAR nerf, all magicka classes will be impacted equally to the point that stamina will be the only way to go in any case to pull DPS. At which point you either keep playing magicka & then you can complain that magicka is weak, not sorc, MAGICKA, or you can switch to stamina with your sorc & be awesome.

One again, not a sorc problem, not everything is about sorc and not everything affects sorcs alone.

TehMagnus

Erock25 wrote: »

I'm still waiting for @TehMagnus to let us know what this 'most powerful spec in cyrodiil' stamina sorc build he has up his sleeve.

Or instead of writing in the forum to complain you could be testing that yourself or figuring out which gear is better for stamina in PVP.

Aint' that hard to find, just check at the most costy gear that gives wep dmg and wep crit and figure out the best combo to get the most out of it but yeah, it requires spending time in the game & testing instead of roaming the forums claiming sorcs suck when you actually have no clue.

byrom101b16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

But you are demonstrably NOT done talking to those who disagree with you are you?

Case in point - the sizeable volume of posts that have been posted here that all say the same thing... and the fact such posts will continue about same thing after this post.

This thread is being deliberately kept at the top of the forum chart with endless repetition of the same point. Lots of anecdotal evidence and repeated sub-1-minute static boss fight dps pictures and videos.

I play a Sorc well enough, and I pull 9-10K without using LL - around 11 with it. I can get 1.5 to 2K more in short fights however, but I discount this. It's irrelevant corner-case evidence.

I have done all trials now and nearly all the veteran dungeons, arena and vet CoA since the patch, and magicka sorcs in light armour (a VERY popular build with many players for all kinds of reasons) requires far greater skill to survive, dps at anything approachng the bottom of the class dps table and is far less forgiving of mistakes.

The fact that you and indeed I can pull this off with all the best gear and great healing backup to rapidly fill in the cracks in our class and build is not the point. Pulling good dps when your bar is full of Sorcerer skills demands that your inherent weaknesses be covered by the skill of others. If you do it yourself and stop being a significant drain on your healers compared to other classes, your dps drops further.

The point that is clear as day to the vast majority of Sorcerer players is this; Sorcerers of this type, the most popular type, are comparatively weak, and the changes to non-class skills and armour which Sorcerer's poor design has forced them to use... and still does... have made the class weaker and less useful. They needed a boost before 1.5, they need it more than ever now.

Gil. Galad has done the work and made the point.

The only credible counterpoint to Gil.Galad's thread is analysis as detailed and forensic as his. The hijacking of 'sorcs are nerfed' threads with the same 'denial-by-anecdote' material posted here does not constitute evidence despite repeated frenetic claims to the contrary... whereas showing some class comparative dps from trials with like-skilled characters, would be evidence worth considering.

Until this happens, any contentions that 'sorcs are fine' remain effectively unfounded.

There is a great and enduring lack of acknowledgement of this on the part of some posters, and an unfortunate tendency to dismiss the opinions of others with less than sufficient evidence, even when they are repeatedly asked for the evidence...

... once again, evidence consisting of something other than quick static dps. The class has survivability, synergy, utility and issues other than pure dps. Even there it is lacking...

In PvP, Sorcerers are fine however. Not great - as it requires far greater skill to pull off a fast kill than other classes... but they are not in need of any buffs. Most people shouting for Sorcerer nerfs in PvP post nirnhoned-bugged figures for crystal hits or other unreal numbers to call for it. The simplistic argument only ever considers corner-case damage numbers, as if that defines an entire class...

Take a look at the new trailer people - it's PvP-bias and confirms that Zenimax have no current focus whatsoever on the PvE issues the state of the magicka Sorcerer is a poster boy for. They have console PvP'ers to sell to... your complaintsare not convenient or 'on-message' right now...

So TehMagus is likely right in one respect - things ain't gonna be changed as long as there is even one person still playing Sorcs in PvE and saying they are fine.

They have said they will 'look at the numbers'. So don't play your Sorc if you have the choice, and make the numbers undeniable. It's the only way you won't get arrogantly dismissed by Zenimax as 'people who always complain'.

In the meantime, perhaps the nerf-deniers could pipe down a little and stop spamming every relevant thread with the same message over and over and over and over and over and over, ensuring that Zenimax have a 'ready-mixed' excuse to do nothing about the problem...

That would be nice...

TehMagnus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I play a Sorc well enough, and I pull 9-10K without using LL - around 11 with it. I can get 1.5 to 2K more in short fights however, but I discount this. It's irrelevant corner-case evidence.

Well that is as much DPS as other magicka classes are pulling most of the time.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

I have done all trials now and nearly all the veteran dungeons, arena and vet CoA since the patch, and magicka sorcs in light armour (a VERY popular build with many players for all kinds of reasons) requires far greater skill to survive, dps at anything approachng the bottom of the class dps table and is far less forgiving of mistakes.

It takes the same amount of skill to survive. You have the same spell/armor resistances and the same HP values as other classes.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The fact that you and indeed I can pull this off with all the best gear and great healing backup to rapidly fill in the cracks in our class and build is not the point. Pulling good dps when your bar is full of Sorcerer skills demands that your inherent weaknesses be covered by the skill of others. If you do it yourself and stop being a significant drain on your healers compared to other classes, your dps drops further.

Sure but its the same, once again, for every other class. If as a DK i start using Igneous shield, wings or GDB because my healers suck, then my DPS will suck. Why are we talking about sorcs when everybody is on the same boat? What does this have to do with the topic?

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

The point that is clear as day to the vast majority of Sorcerer players is this; Sorcerers of this type, the most popular type, are comparatively weak, and the changes to non-class skills and armour which Sorcerer's poor design has forced them to use... and still does... have made the class weaker and less useful. They needed a boost before 1.5, they need it more than ever now.

They don't and a vast majority of sorc players are actually playing the game and aren't complaining on forums so neither you or I know what they think. Moreover, you still haven't given any indication as to why sorcs are weaker than other classes since everything you've stated also applies to other classes.

The way it actually looks like is that skilled sorcs are playing and happy with the changes and a small group of angry people who don't even try to play the new sorc class or adapt to the changes loudly complain about it in the forums hoping for things to change just because they refuse to. You know what they say, adapt or die.

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

Gil. Galad has done the work and made the point.

The only credible counterpoint to Gil.Galad's thread is analysis as detailed and forensic as his. The hijacking of 'sorcs are nerfed' threads with the same 'denial-by-anecdote' material posted here does not constitute evidence despite repeated frenetic claims to the contrary... whereas showing some class comparative dps from trials with like-skilled characters, would be evidence worth considering.

You've said it yourself, you're pulling 9-11k in trials, that's 1-2k less than what we pull with magicka DKs. There's your comparison, what else do you need?

Wanna know something interesting?

- The only way to get the higher leaderboard scores is by doing the Hard Modes.
- The only way to get a higher score doing a Hard Mode is by doing it fast and loosing 0 lives.

It's not a DPS race anymore, it's a survival and time one which means that as long as you don't die and you kill stuff, you'll get the higher scores.

Case point: Nobody smart that is doing trials will care about a sorc pulling 9 or 12k DPS, they will care about the player moving as he should, using his ultimates as he should and not dying.

Stop complaining, sorcs are not useless in PVE they are more useful than before (since now it doesn't matter if they come or not and before we didn't want anything to do with them), hence they weren't nerfed.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting Comments]

pppontus

This was yesterday with 89CP. Next time I will have 12% more crit, so add some on top of that.



And I didn't even come close to dying. Hard to survive? Not at all.

Vahrokh

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

The martial KNowledge cyro adroitness is the op combo for all magicka classses.

If there is an ARMOR/GEAR nerf, all magicka classes will be impacted equally to the point that stamina will be the only way to go in any case to pull DPS. At which point you either keep playing magicka & then you can complain that magicka is weak, not sorc, MAGICKA, or you can switch to stamina with your sorc & be awesome.

One again, not a sorc problem, not everything is about sorc and not everything affects sorcs alone.

Look, your $15 sub money are your $15 sub money so believe and play as you want. You play as "MMO hard core first world record achiever", you play and change to the best classes and builds as a means to an end. Fine. It's your game.

However, other people's $15 sub money is their $15 sub money too.

I didn't start playing ESO on Jan 10, 2014 to become a world first player. I had PLENTY of that 10 years ago and now I am focusing on class flavour, on the social aspects of the game and other values that are NOT lesser than yours.

I totally don't care if they make Templar stamina builds "the only and one best, FOTM gameplay". Whereas you would / are going to reroll stamina templar because your objectives is to have achievements in your signature, I and many others want to play the class we love, with the build we love. "PLAY AS YOU WANT" they said.

I am not talking about noobs slotting 3 stamina skills mixed with 2 magicka, willing to top DPS with sword and board. I am talking about people who, within the class and flavour they chose to play ESO with, are going all the way to play it as best as possible, with as good as possible gear and builds.

But here we are not talking about other AAA MMOs high end raiding, where going class + spec A vs class + spec B yielded 5-10% difference tops. Oddly enough playing other games where the developers actually made classes and specs perform so close, lets you keep your class and spec choices much more than ESO does. Yes, the "top 10 worldwide" guilds will still reroll for that 5-10% more throughput but at this point we are talking about 0.000001% of the playerbase.

In ESO we are talking about sensible differences that should not exist, period.
Some will just U turn at any game patch and adapt like you do (nothing bad per se), others instead stick to their choices and want the game to be made fair (but you feel like it's the case to bash them).


In particular I have spent days and 500,000 gold so far in respecs, re-gearing, re-enchanting. Can't really say I am not trying.

I have the same "super" gear "as shown on the TV" yet the results don't match to the advertisment. And of course I am not getting any answer on other forums, much less a proof. *EDIT* a guy actually playing a sorc as his main, for real, did answer.

Maybe it's because I am proficient with developing Monte Carlo method statistics software, and thus I can easily see where there's flawed "statistics" being posted around. Maybe it's because I can't easily state something, plop a screenshot and then get back to playing my DK / stamina templar and forget.

I have actually reached some of the DPS stated in some screenshots.
And they are fake.

I have spent exactly 16 hours on the same boss, repeating the same DPS rotation.
I got good at it. Once every 20 kills, all the stars aligned, crystal frags procced more than usual or some other fortuitous event happened and then I experienced the loudly advertised "nirvana DPS".

This is not real footage, this is selectively picking an outlier lucky DPS streak and boasting it as the Sorcs standard.

Quite smart initiative to show "best attempt" screenshots, but I am born agnostic, I don't believe ANYONE EVER until I have experienced it in first person.

Counter proof: in the same website showing the nirvana parses, there are other same authors parses that show 9k DPS instead of the indicated 12-14k.


Another flaw in the submitted footage: it's always the same, low health, irrelevant NPCs.
I have tested 3 proposed builds, with the exact abilities and enchants.

I have gone so far to gold enchant and then gold overwrite the previous gold enchants to exactly reproduce the advertised builds. One of the top builds has no magicka save enchants on jewelry, nor dark exhange nothing.
Now, magicka sorcs have enormously more expensive spells than average.

However the author claims such build is viable for trials. That is, a guy with no way to get more magicka whatsoever (except pots) is meant to last a patch 1.6. boss.
I have tried those builds including the one above. They are excellent on that 200k-ish test NPC but fall very short vs a real boss fight. To make magicka last to the end, it's necessary to "slow down", be reliant on other people and so on and in the end the DPS goes down.

I have now seen one of the involved build inventors admit he's now using a different setup to actually make to the end of a trial boss. I guess that DPS is going to take an hit due to that.

However the message: "all is fine" in these threads on THIS forum is not going to change.

Fayaburn

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not a DPS race anymore, it's a survival and time one which means that as long as you don't die and you kill stuff, you'll get the higher scores.

Case point: Nobody smart that is doing trials will care about a sorc pulling 9 or 12k DPS, they will care about the player moving as he should, using his ultimates as he should and not dying.

In the end, it will still come down to DPS.

When craglorn came out, the biggest impact on score was the number of deaths. When everybody and their mum could go through AA and HRC with no deaths, the determining factor for your score became the group DPS.

With 1.6, sure you will go for HM, sure you will kill trash packs you skipped before. But when you start competing with groups that can go through this without deaths, it will still be the group DPS that will make the difference.

TehMagnus wrote: »

Stop complaining, sorcs are not useless in PVE they are more useful than before (since now it doesn't matter if they come or not and before we didn't want anything to do with them), hence they weren't nerfed.

I agree that the overall changes to the class with 1.6 do not equal to a nerf.
With 1.5 we needed in depth work on our skills and capabilities. I feel that the work provided by ZOS is acceptable but would have fancied some additional modifications.
We still have quite many borderline useless or very situational skills and other ones nice on paper but with in practice constraints that cut a big chunk of their usefulness.


Also, as Sorc do not provide mandatory utility, I see no reasons why they should feel fine being 1-2k DPS under other classes. As far as competition goes, given a proper pool of player of each class, a raid leader going for best score will take players with the required utility and complete the group with the highest DPS possible within that pool of equally skilled players.



TL;DR
DPS will still be an important parameter with update 6, even if its importance is still lesser than skill (already was the case in 1.5).
Sorcs even if in a better spot still need some work on the way some of their skills work.
Why should it be fine that with equally skilled player, a Sorc pulls out a smaller DPS (even if margin is small) while providing not interesting group utility?

pppontus

Well, I promised I'd upload a screenshot of Varlariel on my Sorc. I provided that. Now I'm just waiting for that to be beaten by every other spec or whatever it is you guys claim is so much better?

Also, that is without the 12% crit from CS.

And even better, the crit is completely broken. My crit is 37% and nothing comes even close to it in the parse, LOL. But I think this bug is for all magicka specs.

TehMagnus

Fayaburn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

It's not a DPS race anymore, it's a survival and time one which means that as long as you don't die and you kill stuff, you'll get the higher scores.

Case point: Nobody smart that is doing trials will care about a sorc pulling 9 or 12k DPS, they will care about the player moving as he should, using his ultimates as he should and not dying.

In the end, it will still come down to DPS.

When craglorn came out, the biggest impact on score was the number of deaths. When everybody and their mum could go through AA and HRC with no deaths, the determining factor for your score became the group DPS.

With 1.6, sure you will go for HM, sure you will kill trash packs you skipped before. But when you start competing with groups that can go through this without deaths, it will still be the group DPS that will make the difference.

True, and we're far far away from that since even in 1.5 I doubt many teams actually completed Hard Modes without deaths. When we got like 1K CP and full resistances and OP characters, then maybe it will become about DPS and nobody can know how the game will be at that point since it's a long time away. For the next 8 months, it will not be about Highest DPS, it will be about decent DPS and ability to survive & play together.

Fayaburn wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Stop complaining, sorcs are not useless in PVE they are more useful than before (since now it doesn't matter if they come or not and before we didn't want anything to do with them), hence they weren't nerfed.

I agree that the overall changes to the class with 1.6 do not equal to a nerf.
With 1.5 we needed in depth work on our skills and capabilities. I feel that the work provided by ZOS is acceptable but would have fancied some additional modifications.
We still have quite many borderline useless or very situational skills and other ones nice on paper but with in practice constraints that cut a big chunk of their usefulness.

I agree, which is why I think "Sorcs where nerfed" threads are useless. Time would be best spent testing those skills and giving feedback on how they could be improved as I know some have done in their feedback posts such as @Gil.Galad even though I think the initial part of his post is a bit bisaed since you can't compare 1.5 to 1.6 and 1.6 is so "young" that it's impossible to speculate on the # of sorcs that will be needed in trials, same for the sustain, you're not supposed to sustain ourself in raids, that's what healers are for, and as far as solo play goes, the sustain sorcs have is enough..

Fayaburn wrote: »

Also, as Sorc do not provide mandatory utility, I see no reasons why they should feel fine being 1-2k DPS under other classes. As far as competition goes, given a proper pool of player of each class, a raid leader going for best score will take players with the required utility and complete the group with the highest DPS possible within that pool of equally skilled players.

Negate is still useful, more useful than Standard Of MIght in any case. 1-2k dps is nothing when you look at the boss's lives the time difference is calculated in seconds.

Smart raid leaders will go for people who don't die & use proper tactics, not for DPS pullers especially when DPS is so close.

Fayaburn

TehMagnus wrote: »

Smart raid leaders will go for people who don't die & use proper tactics, not for DPS pullers especially when DPS is so close.

I still agree.
But let's say you can choose from a pool of players that you are 100% sure won't die during a HRC HM run for example (they also know how to pull the best numbers out of their class).
What will be the ideal class composition for your roster according to you?

Fayaburn

pppontus wrote: »

Well, I promised I'd upload a screenshot of Varlariel on my Sorc. I provided that. Now I'm just waiting for that to be beaten by every other spec or whatever it is you guys claim is so much better?

Again before I answer, I am not lobbying for a Sorc DPS buff. I would rather see utility added to the class and some skills reworked.

However, concerning the DPS you posted for Valariel :
All classes using a stamina spec can pull higher numbers.
DK Magicka can also pull higher numbers.
Possibly Templars magicka can as well (not sure for that as the magicka templars I know currently focus primarily on heal).

Which leaves Magicka NB spec for which I have not yet seen proper Trial parses.

byrom101b16_ESO

Vahrokh wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

The martial KNowledge cyro adroitness is the op combo for all magicka classses.

If there is an ARMOR/GEAR nerf, all magicka classes will be impacted equally to the point that stamina will be the only way to go in any case to pull DPS. At which point you either keep playing magicka & then you can complain that magicka is weak, not sorc, MAGICKA, or you can switch to stamina with your sorc & be awesome.

One again, not a sorc problem, not everything is about sorc and not everything affects sorcs alone.

Look, your $15 sub money are your $15 sub money so believe and play as you want. You play as "MMO hard core first world record achiever", you play and change to the best classes and builds as a means to an end. Fine. It's your game.

However, other people's $15 sub money is my their $15 sub money too.

I didn't start playing ESO on Jan 10, 2014 to become a world first player. I had PLENTY of that 10 years ago and now I am focusing on class flavour, on the social aspects of the game and other values that are NOT lesser than yours.

I totally don't care if they make Templar stamina builds "the only and one best, FOTM gameplay". Whereas you would / are going to reroll stamina templar because your objectives is to have achievements in your signature, I and many others want to play the class we love, with the build we love. "PLAY AS YOU WANT" they said.

I am not talking about noobs slotting 3 stamina skills mixed with 2 magicka, willing to top DPS with sword and board. I am talking about people who, within the class and flavour they chose to play ESO with, are going all the way to play it as best as possible, with as good as possible gear and builds.

But here we are not talking about other AAA MMOs high end raiding, where going class + spec A vs class + spec B yielded 5-10% difference tops. Oddly enough playing other games where the developers actually made classes and specs perform so close, lets you keep your class and spec choices much more than ESO does. Yes, the "top 10 worldwide" guilds will still reroll for that 5-10% more throughput but at this point we are talking about 0.000001% of the playerbase.

In ESO we are talking about sensible differences that should not exist, period.
Some will just U turn at any game patch and adapt like you do (nothing bad per se), others instead stick to their choices and want the game to be made fair (but you feel like it's the case to bash them).


In particular I have spent days and 500,000 gold so far in respecs, re-gearing, re-enchanting. Can't really say I am not trying.

I have the same "super" gear "as shown on the TV" yet the results don't match to the advertisment. And of course I am not getting any answer on other forums, much less a proof. *EDIT* a guy actually playing a sorc as his main, for real, did answer.

Maybe it's because I am proficient with developing Monte Carlo method statistics software, and thus I can easily see where there's flawed "statistics" being posted around. Maybe it's because I can't easily state something, plop a screenshot and then get back to playing my DK / stamina templar and forget.

I have actually reached some of the DPS stated in some screenshots.
And they are fake.

I have spent exactly 16 hours on the same boss, repeating the same DPS rotation.
I got good at it. Once every 20 kills, all the stars aligned, crystal frags procced more than usual or some other fortuitous event happened and then I experienced the loudly advertised "nirvana DPS".

This is not real footage, this is selectively picking an outlier lucky DPS streak and boasting it as the Sorcs standard.

Quite smart initiative to show "best attempt" screenshots, but I am born agnostic, I don't believe ANYONE EVER until I have experienced it in first person.

Counter proof: in the same website showing the nirvana parses, there are other same authors parses that show 9k DPS instead of the indicated 12-14k.


Another flaw in the submitted footage: it's always the same, low health, irrelevant NPCs.
I have tested 3 proposed builds, with the exact abilities and enchants.

I have gone so far to gold enchant and then gold overwrite the previous gold enchants to exactly reproduce the advertised builds. One of the top builds has no magicka save enchants on jewelry, nor dark exhange nothing.
Now, magicka sorcs have enormously more expensive spells than average.

However the author claims such build is viable for trials. That is, a guy with no way to get more magicka whatsoever (except pots) is meant to last a patch 1.6. boss.
I have tried those builds including the one above. They are excellent on that 200k-ish test NPC but fall very short vs a real boss fight. To make magicka last to the end, it's necessary to "slow down", be reliant on other people and so on and in the end the DPS goes down.

I have now seen one of the involved build inventors admit he's now using a different setup to actually make to the end of a trial boss. I guess that DPS is going to take an hit due to that.

However the message: "all is fine" in these threads on THIS forum is not going to change.

Well said - couldn't agree more.

TehMagnus

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

More rant

It's likely Zenimax will not buff sorcs and people who are having fun with sorcs will be playing them & having tons of fun & good results. GIl statements whereas others are at least constructive since he describes some skills that could use a buff, but his comparison with 1.5 is biased since we're not playing the same game and the survival feedback is also meaningless since you're not supposed to sustain yourself in raids and it's more than enough to survive in PVE.

Class is as is and DPS values will never be the same for all classes (and they are very close atm when it comes to magicka). If you don't like it reroll.

TehMagnus

Fayaburn wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Well, I promised I'd upload a screenshot of Varlariel on my Sorc. I provided that. Now I'm just waiting for that to be beaten by every other spec or whatever it is you guys claim is so much better?

Again before I answer, I am not lobbying for a Sorc DPS buff. I would rather see utility added to the class and some skills reworked.

However, concerning the DPS you posted for Valariel :
All classes using a stamina spec can pull higher numbers.
DK Magicka can also pull higher numbers.
Possibly Templars magicka can as well (not sure for that as the magicka templars I know currently focus primarily on heal).

Which leaves Magicka NB spec for which I have not yet seen proper Trial parses.

DK magicka numbers are veryclose for valariel, with 12% crit.

Stamina Sorc is also higher.

Templar stamina I saw pulled 13k DPs on Valariel yday.

diwie

pppontus wrote: »

This was yesterday with 89CP. Next time I will have 12% more crit, so add some on top of that.



And I didn't even come close to dying. Hard to survive? Not at all.

Why do you keep on posting sorcs mini dps? You re already known as a good player. Please do not motivate them just to look out for a pppontus to their potential open sorc slot in group. This was and perhaps still is the biggest nerf for a sorc.

To come back to topic: LA was nerfed, so sorcs in LA were nerfed, so sorc was nerfed in general. Maybe others in LA were nerved too but they re not complain that much.

TehMagnus

Vahrokh wrote: »

Look, your $15 sub money are your $15 sub money so believe and play as you want. You play as "MMO hard core first world record achiever", you play and change to the best classes and builds as a means to an end. Fine. It's your game.

However, other people's $15 sub money is my their $15 sub money too.

I didn't start playing ESO on Jan 10, 2014 to become a world first player. I had PLENTY of that 10 years ago and now I am focusing on class flavour, on the social aspects of the game and other values that are NOT lesser than yours.

I totally don't care if they make Templar stamina builds "the only and one best, FOTM gameplay". Whereas you would / are going to reroll stamina templar because your objectives is to have achievements in your signature, I and many others want to play the class we love, with the build we love. "PLAY AS YOU WANT" they said.

Then why are you complaining? Your class allows you to complete any content in the game and it is strong enough to do so. If you don't compete what do you care if your DPS is a bit lower or even what other people are doing with their classes?

Vahrokh wrote: »

I am not talking about noobs slotting 3 stamina skills mixed with 2 magicka, willing to top DPS with sword and board. I am talking about people who, within the class and flavour they chose to play ESO with, are going all the way to play it as best as possible, with as good as possible gear and builds.

But here we are not talking about other AAA MMOs high end raiding, where going class + spec A vs class + spec B yielded 5-10% difference tops. Oddly enough playing other games where the developers actually made classes and specs perform so close, lets you keep your class and spec choices much more than ESO does. Yes, the "top 10 worldwide" guilds will still reroll for that 5-10% more throughput but at this point we are talking about 0.000001% of the playerbase.

Difference in DPS is 1-2% at the moment for Magicka AND Stamina builds. If you're not competing there is no reason what so ever to complain about sorcs.

Vahrokh wrote: »

In ESO we are talking about sensible differences that should not exist, period.
Some will just U turn at any game patch and adapt like you do (nothing bad per se), others instead stick to their choices and want the game to be made fair (but you feel like it's the case to bash them).

There are no differences, you can kill stuff and complete content. That's all that matters if you're not competing.

Vahrokh wrote: »

I have actually reached some of the DPS stated in some screenshots.
And they are fake.

They aren't. I've seen equivalent and even more from sorcs in my guild regularly. Their intake on this subject is: "Stop wasting time with those people they'll never change their minds" which I'm about to do.

Vahrokh wrote: »

However the message: "all is fine" in these threads on THIS forum is not going to change.

And the message: "Sorc is Nerfed" is false. You can argue it's not there yet, but sorcs where most def, not nerfed, which is the point of this topic.

TehMagnus

diwie wrote: »

To come back to topic: LA was nerfed, so sorcs in LA were nerfed, so sorc was nerfed in general. Maybe others in LA were nerved too but they re not complain that much.

Sorcs were not nerfed, you can't say an armor that you wear by choice is equal to a nerf of your class.

LA was nerfed and I personally don't like it and find it too weak compared to Stamina but this is in no way what so ever related to sorcs and nobody is stoping you from going stamina.

byrom101b16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

byrom101b16_ESO wrote: »

More rant

It's likely Zenimax will not buff sorcs and people who are having fun with sorcs will be playing them & having tons of fun & good results. GIl statements whereas others are at least constructive since he describes some skills that could use a buff, but his comparison with 1.5 is biased since we're not playing the same game and the survival feedback is also meaningless since you're not supposed to sustain yourself in raids and it's more than enough to survive in PVE.

Class is as is and DPS values will never be the same for all classes (and they are very close atm when it comes to magicka). If you don't like it reroll.

Eh?!

You just made up that quote by 'me'!

Listen, I'm used to you making stuff up in your arguments, but don't try to put words into my mouth...