- = Sorcs were not nerfed = -

Flaminir

Snit wrote: »

The most important sorc issues are for healer, tank and probably stamina specs.

The classic magicka DPS (which I play) appears to be in decent shape -- we'll know more after enough time has passed for everyone to sort out specs and gear. Let's see what class mix guilds prefer for difficult content in a month or two.

Healer sorcs bring nothing to the table in terms of class skills. They're just a means of transportation for a resto staff. That needs to change. Tank sorcs need some help with resource management, especially as the new "expert mage" perk was changed into something that is only meaningful for magicka builds.

I'd like to see sorcs be competitive in multiple roles.

@Snit consistently seems to 'get it' in every thread I see him/her post. Balanced & rational... the majority seem to take one of two very polarized views...

1. People saying Sorcs are useless... wrong!

As DPS some stuff WAS nerfed, other things were BUFFED... its a case of trying new stuff, but already there are some builds & setups coming out that seem to show we aren't as far behind the DK's as we were before (Still behind though).

Try things, find new skills..... I'm working on a 'ShockDot' build at the moment centered around a Masters lightning staff and destructive clench... so far it's showing a LOT of promise, & I'll post details once I'm happy with it.... but its a lot of fun to play, & fun trying new stuff out... 2 button gameplay in 1.5 was dull as hell...

2. People saying Sorc's are great....wrong!

As Snit says... we are more competitive in PvE DPS terms now, but the major class failings are in the Healer, tank, & stamina specs. ZoS have come out & confirmed that they are looking at these, but don't have an exact timescale due to the TU switch etc. So at least the problem here has been acknowledged & is being looked at.

Go back... read the tool tips... look at the passives.... TEST STUFF!

That's my two pence worth... now I'm off to go work on my 'ShockDot' build.... the bloodspawn has been a naughty boy & needs to be electrocuted!

TehMagnus

Artemiisia wrote: »

first wanna start this with saying to TehMagnus, maybe first post should had been more objective and constructive instead of bashing the sorc community like that, there are some feelings involved with this and for you to do that kinda like sticking it to the man.

Constructive? Like all the "OMG WE GOT NERFED" posts from Sorcs?

Artemiisia wrote: »

Many players in this game is casual players and for those that plays sorc, have probably had lots of raging on how they lack dps in their groups, and many have trouble getting invites for pug groups like gold key pledges.

I know and I think that's why they are overreacting.

Artemiisia wrote: »

Casual players have one issue more that I know for a fact nobody in Hodor has, is the mats, gold and time, to grind for new gear sets and such. So when u bash on them about wearing the same gear, there might be a reason behind it, maybe take the high road, especially when being a front figure in this game pve pact wise.

Not true. I know many casuals that have millions of gold, you'd be surprised how poor some of us are, bare in mind that we might make gold selling mats but we spend roughly 200 potions on a normal day and buy stacks by the thousands. As for gold mats it's the same, many casuals are much much richer than us and have many many more gold mats than us just because they have lots of hirelings.
As for bashing about wearing the same gear, it's not a sorc related problem, everybody, all the DPS classes had to change gear so sorry if I don't cry a river for the sorcs being on the same boat as all the other classes.I personally don't have the time to farm to get gold and I only had 3 hirelings with stats leveled up so I have been saving all the legendary mats my hirelings give me since 1.3 because I knew that eventually I'd have to redo my gear: I planned ahead. Anyone who had to change gear when level was elevated from VR12 to VR14 should have done the same and in any case, Purple gear is as effective, some members of Hodor's core group aren't wearing full legendary sets.

Artemiisia wrote: »

For me personally though, as much as I dislike how you approached it, I agree with you.

I feel ya, then again, understand that all the classes have gone through a lot of changes, DKs where over-nerfed and you don't see us crying about it on the forums! One post is enough, 5 per day stating that socrs where nerfed and are worse than before in a 2 weeks old game where people have no idea of what's going on and all decent theorycrafter sorcs state that the class hasn't been nerfed is annoying

Mr.Hmm

Give it up, people are still stuck in pre-1.6 update , my sorc can easily kill an elite boss solo and she is lvl 20.

I dont know how it was pre-1.6 but i feel like my sorc is really strong now.

Vahrokh

pppontus wrote: »

IMO no class or build should do even remotely competetive DPS using only 1 attack and 1 buff, that just takes skill out of combat and promotes the "button mashing" type gameplay that has plagued ESO for a long time. And yes, I'm aware 2H does this at the moment and really hope they nerf Wrecking Blow.

You can still be versatile, but versatility is a tradeoff from higher DPS, again as it should be. I don't see why you couldn't run something like:

Inner Light, Liquid Lightning, Impulse, Force Pulse, Crystal Fragments.
Inner Light, Hardened Ward, Healing Springs, Thundering Presence, Spell Symmetry/Entropy/Surge

And have enormous survivability (Ward), capability to offheal (Healing Springs) and at the same time good Single Target and AOE DPS. That should work well for mostly everything if you want to be a jack-of-all-trades. It's a little bit of a tradeoff but really.. not much

1) We did not choose to be limited to six buttons, ZoS imposed this "modern era of monkeys" limitations, many MMOs give a lot more freedom.

2) Except for 2 abilities this is my 1.5 spec. I did not use defenses in trials (used execute instead) and used Elemental Ring instead of Liquid Lightning. Now, I have used that spec post 1.6 in my first trial. It delivered 5k DPS
That's a bit too much of a trade off, don't you think? Unless using Liquid Lightning is the factor that turns 5k into say 8k of course.

3) I'd always warn people who do Hel Ra to be careful speccing force pulse and using liquid lightning.
Crushing shock is nerfed indeed but makes right side flame casters a breeze to kill.
Elemental Ring works oh-so-awesomely-better with those many NPCs running all around.

reften

DKs and Templars are so far superior than NBs and Sorcs it's silly. But hey, it's a more challenging game for me, and I'm having fun...so big deal.

But, the fact is,
a DPS focused DK, Tanky DK, Healing Temp, and a 1/2 healing 1/2 DPS Temp is a far superior group than one of each class.

rfennell_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

So I am right when I say they werent nerfed :-). And in any case it's too soon to tell.

For small scale group based pve and soloing sorcs were hardcore nerfed.

If you include pvp with pve in your assessment you could call it even. but... you weren't talking about pvp. From a raiding perspective sorcs are probably a little better off... but being a little better off but still substandard isn't anything to claim a victory over.

From a strictly "what can I solo" perspective sorcs were nerfed (not changed) very severely. In 4 man dungeons and trials the reason for a sorc was that while the dps was lower was that the self sustain and self healing and negate made them valuable. They no longer can provide that self healing and negate is weaker. NERFED. It's not "changed" it's nerfed.

I guess an explanation would be something like the New England Patriots "changed" the football by cheating. Hasbro turns a football into a lightweight foam facsimile of a real football and calls it a "nerf" football.

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

IMO no class or build should do even remotely competetive DPS using only 1 attack and 1 buff, that just takes skill out of combat and promotes the "button mashing" type gameplay that has plagued ESO for a long time. And yes, I'm aware 2H does this at the moment and really hope they nerf Wrecking Blow.

You can still be versatile, but versatility is a tradeoff from higher DPS, again as it should be. I don't see why you couldn't run something like:

Inner Light, Liquid Lightning, Impulse, Force Pulse, Crystal Fragments.
Inner Light, Hardened Ward, Healing Springs, Thundering Presence, Spell Symmetry/Entropy/Surge

And have enormous survivability (Ward), capability to offheal (Healing Springs) and at the same time good Single Target and AOE DPS. That should work well for mostly everything if you want to be a jack-of-all-trades. It's a little bit of a tradeoff but really.. not much

1) We did not choose to be limited to six buttons, ZoS imposed this "modern era of monkeys" limitations, many MMOs give a lot more freedom.

2) Except for 2 abilities this is my 1.5 spec. I did not use defenses in trials (used execute instead) and used Elemental Ring instead of Liquid Lightning. Now, I have used that spec post 1.6 in my first trial. It delivered 5k DPS
That's a bit too much of a trade off, don't you think? Unless using Liquid Lightning is the factor that turns 5k into say 8k of course.

3) I'd always warn people who do Hel Ra to be careful speccing force pulse and using liquid lightning.
Crushing shock is nerfed indeed but makes right side flame casters a breeze to kill.
Elemental Ring works oh-so-awesomely-better with those many NPCs running all around.

1. Yes. I can't do much about that!

2. Hm, 5K? Seems a bit low honestly but it depends on the boss I guess. In 1.6 you need proper debuffing etc. to make it work as the bosses have high resistances. I did just above 10K on Varlariel when I did AA post-patch (obviously) and at that point I was really bad with the rotation.

3. We have our DKs spec Crushing. They use Whip anyway in Melee so it's better for them to take that 10% loss since they won't use it in most fights.

jircris11

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

I am running a spell blade build (4 heavy/3light) and 2 handed weapon and while running dungeons yesterday my group died at the boss. I was able to solo them from 1/2 HP due to my clanfear and twilight + my dmg shield i grant my self. Mana is no issue nor is stamina. I have a v14 NB and honestly i am having more fun with this hybrid mess of a build then anything i have tried yet. So imo sorc was not nerfed, they were changed. Those who complain about the nerf are those who enjoyed being very over powered in pvp or pve.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

IMO the largest downside to playing a stamina or magika based sorcerer are all the toggles you have to have on your bar.

Sorcs have lots of neat skills, but the fact that you have to have the same toggles on both bars in order to keep them on is very inefficient IMO.

Magika

-2 pets
-armor skin with very minor bonuses now
-and some version of bolt escape (more so if you PvP--- which seems to be why this these skill overhauls are redone for every class)
-entropy for dps boost
and some stack that with mage light
damage absorbers



that's 1 to 2 bars per bar; leaving you with 2 to 1 actual DPS/Utility skills to slot

so what do people take in the 'free slots'?

magic based dps-- im thinking crystal, curse, wrath, liquid lightning combo choose some variant to fit

then most are staff users...... so now you gotta fit destro/resto skills?


wheres the room?

the only thing i can think of is not slotting lightning forms/surges? which kinda is a class defining skill

Stamina

every stamina class is roughly the same---

2H
Brawler for damage absorber + Wrecking blow spam ( in fact IMO-- no need to execute, as WB does jsut as good)
rally for heals + weapon damage
lightning form
surge buff
gap closer-- bolt form/crit rush

thats 6 skills that cant fit on the bar?

oh
and if you want daedric armor stam morph thats 7

so if you want to use movement buff you have to use bar 2
but if you want to keep daedric armor on-- well thats on bar to as well of some versoin of flip flopping.

This class has gotten to be the epitomy of carpal tunnel, and is more complex that the EQ1 bard ever was.

MY solution ZOS if you read this is to

1) combine the toggle buffs into 1 toggle
IE
daedric armor stam morph + lightning form + surge weapon ========15s
daedric armor mag morph + lightning form + surge weapon/magika== 20s

add a toggle for weapon enchantment/summoning

stam user gets a +X damage imbuement to his weapon
or
just plain summon a energy lightning weapon that increases chance for disintegration + adds AE damage?

magic user gets a magic based weapon that reaps back magika?

the point is this

we have 10 slots plus 2 ultimates

most classes fill the majority of thos slots with NON CLASS skills.

but for the toggle laden sorc-- its the opposite. Sorcs do not get to use alot of the powerful non class skills that others use because we gotta keep the toggles.

the ultimates that other classes use are overwhelmingly
metor
dawnbreaker (what ever its called)
again non class specific skills.


anyhow-- im tired just from replying to this, so pardon me.

k2blader

Little worse than a thread complaining about complainers with no backup other than "don't complain."

If the OP is only a pixel-monster zapper, he should have numbers to prove his point.

BBSooner

I agree with the OP.

Some good discussion/details in this thread as well:

http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157115/eso-1-6-sorcerer-detailed-guide-for-pvp-pve

PainfulFAFA

I agree with OP.
SOrcs are nice atm and I love that any activation of any spell gives the 35% proc for crystal frag.
The healing passives of Dark Magic is nice so constantly procing crystal frags and using it will insta heal you for what 2k-8k?
Oh and let's not forget surge which heals for every critical attack ( including weapon and spell crits)
And then the handy dandy ward for that extra protection

I don't understand where all this Sorc nerf drama came out but after pveing and pvping I've figured out good combos for Sorc. I'm currently using dual wield (for single target) and bow(for aoe) with 4 light 3 medium and it's nice

Tankqull

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I agree with OP.
SOrcs are nice atm and I love that any activation of any spell gives the 35% proc for crystal frag.
The healing passives of Dark Magic is nice so constantly procing crystal frags and using it will insta heal you for what 2k-8k?
Oh and let's not forget surge which heals for every critical attack ( including weapon and spell crits)
And then the handy dandy ward for that extra protection

I don't understand where all this Sorc nerf drama came out but after pveing and pvping I've figured out good combos for Sorc. I'm currently using dual wield (for single target) and bow(for aoe) with 4 light 3 medium and it's nice

as it cant crit, all you see is inbetween 1.1 and 1.5k heals with 26.7k magica its currently heals me for 1488HP

PainfulFAFA

Tankqull wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I agree with OP.
SOrcs are nice atm and I love that any activation of any spell gives the 35% proc for crystal frag.
The healing passives of Dark Magic is nice so constantly procing crystal frags and using it will insta heal you for what 2k-8k?
Oh and let's not forget surge which heals for every critical attack ( including weapon and spell crits)
And then the handy dandy ward for that extra protection

I don't understand where all this Sorc nerf drama came out but after pveing and pvping I've figured out good combos for Sorc. I'm currently using dual wield (for single target) and bow(for aoe) with 4 light 3 medium and it's nice

as it cant crit, all you see is inbetween 1.1 and 1.5k heals with 26.7k magica its currently heals me for 1488HP

Oops that's true but for the other abilities such as daedric mine and shattering wall the heals is nice.
Defensive run ( rune prison morph) is so awesome I can run around on my horse w/o worrying about any ganker.

But to your point, I believe the dark magic passive scales off your HP (8% HP each time enemy is affected by a dark magic Ability) and not magicka.

eventide03b14a_ESO

Robbmrp wrote: »

The only thing I would actually consider a "Nerf" to Sorcerer's was the cool down added to Critical Surge. If they would have also updated it to NOT include DoT's then the cool down would be fine. Since a lot of Sorcs use DoT's it renders Crit Surge useless for healing. They need to remove DoT crits from the spell and then it would be more useful.

This might be a dumb question, but can someone explain to me what this cooldown on critical surge is? I did't take that morph and I didn't see anything in the tooltip indicating a cooldown.

Tankqull

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

Tankqull wrote: »

PainfulFAFA wrote: »

I agree with OP.
SOrcs are nice atm and I love that any activation of any spell gives the 35% proc for crystal frag.
The healing passives of Dark Magic is nice so constantly procing crystal frags and using it will insta heal you for what 2k-8k?
Oh and let's not forget surge which heals for every critical attack ( including weapon and spell crits)
And then the handy dandy ward for that extra protection

I don't understand where all this Sorc nerf drama came out but after pveing and pvping I've figured out good combos for Sorc. I'm currently using dual wield (for single target) and bow(for aoe) with 4 light 3 medium and it's nice

as it cant crit, all you see is inbetween 1.1 and 1.5k heals with 26.7k magica its currently heals me for 1488HP

Oops that's true but for the other abilities such as daedric mine and shattering wall the heals is nice.
Defensive run ( rune prison morph) is so awesome I can run around on my horse w/o worrying about any ganker.

But to your point, I believe the dark magic passive scales off your HP (8% HP each time enemy is affected by a dark magic Ability) and not magicka.

as i head slightly above 20k HP 7% would fit if at all.

TehMagnus

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

So I am right when I say they werent nerfed :-). And in any case it's too soon to tell.

For small scale group based pve and soloing sorcs were hardcore nerfed.

They werent, it just changed. Just learn to play the new sorc.

Nightreaver

scy22b14_ESO wrote: »

Sorcs are overpowered. And they are the loudest group of whiners on the forums. .

As far as greatest whiner, when whining about whining I doubt anyone will be able to give you competition in that role.
As far as Sorcerers being overpowered. I will say it again.
If the class that is behind in every role is considered to be Overpowered then what does that say about the other classes?

TehMagnus wrote: »

So I am right when I say they werent nerfed :-). And in any case it's too soon to tell.

If you're claiming there were no nerfs then no you would be wrong.
If you're claiming that Sorcerers as a class wasn't nerfed then I would agree. And I think that is the greatest distinction.
But then that still leaves us no better off than we were which is to say still behind in every role.

TehMagnus wrote: »

DKs where over-nerfed and you don't see us crying about it on the forums!

You claim that Sorcerers should be content being a few thousand behind in DPS while complaining that the gap has narrowed leaving DKs are only a few thousand ahead in DPS????? You're claiming that DKs have been overnerfed while they still remain ahead of the other classes? You say we don't see DKs whining but seriously what do DKs have to whine about? That they are only the best in 2 roles and not all 3? What possible difference could the number of nerfs make if it still leaves you in the top position of multiple roles?
You want Sorcerers to stop whining? Let Sorcerers walk away from encounters with that few thousand DPS lead then see who the best whiners are.

Snit wrote: »

The most important sorc issues are for healer, tank and probably stamina specs.

Though normally I agree with you, in this case I would say the Sorc issues are Healer, Tank and DPS. Unless you have information that supports that Sorcerer Magicka DPS can match the DPS of other classes.

Though admittedly I don't play a Stamina Sorc it is my understanding that Stamina Sorcerer DPS > Magicka Sorcerer DPS.
Or is that not the case?

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Trolling & Baiting]

ZOS_GaryA

Hey there folks,

We understand that sorcerers are a heated point of discussion right now, but we ask that the discussion stays related to the topic's original intention. Personal jabs don't add anything constructive to the thread and only serve to derail the discussion. We'd love to be sure everyone's opinion is heard, but please be respectful of other points of view when adding your own. Thanks for your understanding!

TehMagnus

@Nightreaver actually tamplars are on par with dks and even superior in some instances lile VDSA :-) my templar will be level 50 this weekend.

Gyudan

DK players claiming other classes are fine. This is always a funny topic of discussion.

Valymer

Gyudan wrote: »

DK players claiming other classes are fine. This is always a funny topic of discussion.

/thread

macabrex

I lost my hope that Zos will fix sorcs. I rerolled a Dk and he is a monster.

Moderator note: Edited per our rules on rude and insulting comments

TehMagnus

macabrex wrote: »

Lol. Tehmagnus and pppontus. You guys are f..... awesome. You hijacked all sorcerer threads in this forum. Because of you guys i found the right way and i lost my hope that Zos will fix sorcs. I rerolled a Dk and he is a monster.Ty very much guys...

Good my child. now reroll to templar, they are the next awesome thing.

Jokes aside, I was the first one to say Sorcs sucked and I wanted nothing to do with them, why would I say they weren't nerfed when I always said they deserved buffs?

Snit

Yolokin_Swagonborn wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

The most important sorc issues are for healer, tank and probably stamina specs.

Though normally I agree with you, in this case I would say the Sorc issues are Healer, Tank and DPS. Unless you have information that supports that Sorcerer Magicka DPS can match the DPS of other classes.

Sorc magicka DPS is clearly better than it was. I don't think we can answer the real question, though, whether it's sufficiently competitive with other classes (which usually means DK's). Not yet. A lot of people have to sort out builds, do some regearing and practice new rotations. I think we should give it a month before reaching any conclusions.

If three months from now, we still see DK's kicking sorc tail in vet dungeon DPS and pretty much excluding sorcs from trial runs, then we will know something. The playerbase ends up voting on class balance through what they actually play. Let's wait for the votes to come in. *

As for sorc healers and tanks -- they're unquestionably weaker than the other classes. ZOS mentioned on the PTS forums a while back that they intended to fix that, but I haven't read anything on that subject since then.




*I just hope ZOS looks at that data. I'm not sure I'll ever forget, "Players always say their class is underpowered, but then I see a video of some guy, and he's untouchable..." I'm not sure that's the most unfortunate thing I've ever read from a dev, but it's in the conversation. Tied for first

pppontus

I'll quote myself in another thread:

"Actually, one of the Sorcs in my guild did #1 DPS in Hel Ra tonight. Above DKs, both Stamina and Magicka, as well. I'll ask him if he has some screenshots. LL works pretty good there too, your tank just got to be aware of it (same as they should be for DK eruption). And LL will hit quite a large number, and proc Skoria, and together with Thundering Presence - you can completely devastate everything in AOE!

The more I play this, the more I'm convinced that it will be up there at the top for sure."

You also have to consider how much of an advantage it actually is in many fights to be able to do 98% of your DPS from range

macabrex

I dont care why are you doing this. Honestly i dont care if sorcs are fine or not. If great tehmagnus says "sorcs are fine" than sorcs are fine. Shut up l2p like tehmagnus you whining sorcerers.

eventide03b14a_ESO

macabrex wrote: »

I dont care why are you doing this. Honestly i dont care if sorcs are fine or not. If great tehmagnus says "sorcs are fine" than sorcs are fine. Shut up l2p like tehmagnus you whining sorcerers.

Just look at the threads. Sorcerers are clearly nerfed and OP at the same time. Their DPS is both crap and uber and they are are both squishy in PvP and also invincible. They are the worst class and the most fun to play. Case closed.

Dazin93

It doesn't make sense why legitimate threads about sorc issues have been closed or moved yet this one is being allowed to persist.

There is no constructive content given by the OP and nothing of value added to the discussion. I played a stamina based sorc exclusively for 6+ months in PvP and I can assure you that stamina sorcs are no longer competitive in PvP. I have provided factual posts as to why that is and I have challenged anyone who disagrees to compile a comprehensive list of sorc class skills that provide a benefit equal to or greater than what other class stamina builds have to offer. To date, my challenge has gone unanswered.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Dazin93 wrote: »

It doesn't make sense why legitimate threads about sorc issues have been closed or moved yet this one is being allowed to persist.

There is no constructive content given by the OP and nothing of value added to the discussion. I played a stamina based sorc exclusively for 6+ months in PvP and I can assure you that stamina sorcs are no longer competitive in PvP. I have provided factual posts as to why that is and I have challenged anyone who disagrees to compile a comprehensive list of sorc class skills that provide a benefit equal to or greater than what other class stamina builds have to offer. To date, my challenge has gone unanswered.

The OP is referring to every Sorc build except for stamina PVP. Both magicka and stamina PVE Sorcs are fine with DPS. In PVP, magicka Sorcs are extremely good. Stamina Sorcs? None of our class skills or passives really promote going stamina. It's easier to do it in PVE, but for PVP? Sorcs usually rely on shield spamming for tankiness, and going stamina is going to really make you squishy.