- = Sorcs were not nerfed = -

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

pppontus wrote: »

Exactly as TehMagnus says, by posting all these NERF threads and crying you are all just making this problem worse for everyone as you make people think Sorcs are bad when they are not anymore. So if you get excluded, maybe look at how you caused that yourselves.

If forums were the easy and sure way to convince actual players, you'd see a lot more success in the many "sway opinion" campaigns happened in the last 20 years.

Nope. One day players... play and find out that in example the flaunted "DAoC reborn PvP game" can't sustain more than 40 people at a time.
One day players... play and then the $100M AAA title ends B2P before a year.

One day players... play and then they'll find out if a class is good or bad. No talking on the forums will change that.

Plus there's skill checks. Let's say that if even a moron can make his DK / templar effective to 90% of its capacity while it takes an Hodor player or similar to do the same on another class, then I doubt that class will earn lots of popularity within the general playerbase. Even if that class true potential was above DK / templars!

As I said already, I sincerely hope to be wrong. I happen to actually have invested 1 year of my life into this.

I would agree with you, if it wasn't for the fact that I've met many Sorcs in game who have been saying that they were nerfed because they read so on the forum. Then we do whatever dungeon and afterwards they don't think so anymore.

I don't think that any class is particularly much harder or easier except the OP wrecking blow builds. Pretty sure if you do moderate DPS on a sorc, you'll do the same on a DK/Templar. Good DPS relies on keeping buffs and dots up while weaving with a filler skill, no matter what class you are. If you can do it on one you can do it on all.

Artemiisia

The Sorcerer:

Is 100x times more fun to play with now, the fact I have to switch between, applying dots, aoe, single target, procs and such, makes the fighting scene feels so much more fun and dynamic. Sure I have had some starting troubles, but im actually slowly pulling around 10k dps now as well. But again it depends on which boss, if I get kb/cc and such.

My advice is start experiment with your class, so far I have had to adjust my attribute points 3 times to tweak it for optimal dps, I have had to respec my skills once, respec my morphs twice to obtain what I have accomplice.

and again, I have no trouble getting into trails at all, completed everything except SO speed and hm, will get them for sure.

If you (sorcerers), take you time to build up a friend base, get into pve guilds that do trails, prove yourself able to hold your own, then there is no stopping you.

Best advice further more, stop looking at the top 20, those people are min/maxers and dont care about the class. Its all about the best combonation to reach that. The people that are wannabes elites should just take a hike, I have seen so many of these so called wannabe elites, on the leading board, and many of them are below me.

Snit

I have changed my mind completely on the class heal issue. I think Magicka Sorcs are in excellent shape in that regard, despite Surge being gutted. Conjured Ward is as good as a heal for Light Armor classes. Here is my thinking:

- I stack spell power, but I still have a decent amount of magicka. Depending on what is slotted, it's usually about 27 to 28k
- Hardened Ward gives me an instant shield of about 12k. Because it is zero mitigation, that is not like having 12k additional health (In 5L/1H/1M & 7,377 armor, I believe my armor mitigation is about 13%)
- Ward is therefore worth approximately 10k hit points. That's equivalent to 50% of my base health

That's not a bad heal, 50%. When you consider that magicka sorcs are usually in light armor and have poor mitigation, a shield is nearly as good as actual healing, in terms of time-to-live. Add in the fact that I can pre-cast one before combat, and I think it's pretty darned nice.

First caveat: It doesn't actually heal you. If I'm in a group with a healer, though, this gives them time to get to me. If I'm solo, I almost certainly have resto staff on the swap, so I can deal with it myself once I have literally stopped the bleeding with a Ward.

Second caveat: These shields do little good for stamina sorcs or for the occasional heavy armor sorc (and I didn't even know these were a thing until Teargrants tore me a new sorc-hole in Cyro a few days ago). For stamina sorcs, however, Rally provides a pretty good consolation prize.

In short, bind Hardened Ward to a mouse button in situations where you need self-healing and you'll find you don't miss the old Surge nearly as much.

Emma_Overload

Snit wrote: »

I have changed my mind completely on the class heal issue. I think Magicka Sorcs are in excellent shape in that regard, despite Surge being gutted. Conjured Ward is as good as a heal for Light Armor classes. Here is my thinking:

- I stack spell power, but I still have a decent amount of magicka. Depending on what is slotted, it's usually about 27 to 28k
- Hardened Ward gives me an instant shield of about 12k. Because it is zero mitigation, that is not like having 12k additional health (In 5L/1H/1M & 7,377 armor, I believe my armor mitigation is about 13%)
- Ward is therefore worth approximately 10k hit points. That's equivalent to 50% of my base health

That's not a bad heal, 50%. When you consider that magicka sorcs are usually in light armor and have poor mitigation, a shield is nearly as good as actual healing, in terms of time-to-live. Add in the fact that I can pre-cast one before combat, and I think it's pretty darned nice.

First caveat: It doesn't actually heal you. If I'm in a group with a healer, though, this gives them time to get to me. If I'm solo, I almost certainly have resto staff on the swap, so I can deal with it myself once I have literally stopped the bleeding with a Ward.

Second caveat: These shields do little good for stamina sorcs or for the occasional heavy armor sorc (and I didn't even know these were a thing until Teargrants tore me a new sorc-hole in Cyro a few days ago). For stamina sorcs, however, Rally provides a pretty good consolation prize.

In short, bind Hardened Ward to a mouse button in situations where you need self-healing and you'll find you don't miss the old Surge nearly as much.

I almost stopped reading when you said "Conjured Ward is as good as a heal for Light Armor classes", but I'm glad I didn't because you make most of the arguments against that statement yourself, thus saving me the time.

The biggest problem with Ward as a healing mechanic is that each cast overwrites the previous one. Your Max Health effectively becomes the Damage Point size of the Ward, and you are reduced to ZERO percent mitigation for the duration of the fight.

I'll admit that Ward works in many fights, but they're always the easy ones, the kind where you don't really need any healing at all. When the mobs get tougher and more numerous, you can't cast Ward fast enough to keep yourself alive, never mind the fact that you are wasting Magicka on a skill that does no damage.

xaraan

No, they were not nerfed. About the only thing we have outdoing our sorc dps are DK 2H stam builds. I pointed out that many of the changes weren't so bad in the PTS threads about the class and got piled on by haters, insulting me and even my guild they got so hot about someone not joining the "mob thought." I think players will start to finally see how good sorcs are as they get their builds situated.

Snit

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The biggest problem with Ward as a healing mechanic is that each cast overwrites the previous one. Your Max Health effectively becomes the Damage Point size of the Ward, and you are reduced to ZERO percent mitigation for the duration of the fight.

But.. you're not at zero mitigation. My effective hit point bar with a ward up is 12k of unmitigated shield + 21k of slightly armored health. The second bit isn't great, but it's not zero.

Another way to think about it is this: If ward were converted to an instant heal for 50% of base health, would you prefer that? I would not. That would make me less survivable in some cases (no pre-cast) and more survivable in no cases.

Heavy Armor or Stam sorcs would disagree, and rightly so. But I'm not playing either of those.

Flaminir

Snit wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The biggest problem with Ward as a healing mechanic is that each cast overwrites the previous one. Your Max Health effectively becomes the Damage Point size of the Ward, and you are reduced to ZERO percent mitigation for the duration of the fight.

But.. you're not at zero mitigation. My effective hit point bar with a ward up is 12k of unmitigated shield + 21k of slightly armored health. The second bit isn't great, but it's not zero.

Another way to think about it is this: If ward were converted to an instant heal for 50% of base health, would you prefer that? I would not. That would make me less survivable in some cases (no pre-cast) and more survivable in no cases.

Heavy Armor or Stam sorcs would disagree, and rightly so. But I'm not playing either of those.

My first visit to AA since 1.6 hit & we started wiping at the Mage... I slotted hardened ward & was instantly one of the last few standing... despite the other people in the raid having superior 'healing' abilities.

Ward works especially great when you have a HoT running on you in group situations... ward up & the HoT just ticks away underneath to get you back up.

Works better than I had expected.... I'd only really used shields when PvP'ing... but there are circumstances where they work pretty well in PvE in place of a proper heal.

AltusVenifus

Can only comment of PVP, but SORC is best PVP class now...

Snit

AltusVenifus wrote: »

Can only comment of PVP, but SORC is best PVP class now...

It depends on your perspective. That may true for a nightblade, especially if you're dual-wield. What you don't see is the matchup between sorcs and DK's, where DK's have an advantage ranging from moderate to gigantic, depending on how often they can afford to flap their wings.

There's some rock-paper-scissors here. Historically, though, it's been a problem since DK's have been so overrepresented in Cyrodiil. There's a billion of them.

Mumnoch

Damn the amount of NB's, DK's, and Templars on this thread fighting against a buff to Sorc's is sickening. There isn't a single Sorc setup that outperforms NB's, DK's, and Templars in terms of tanking, healing, or DPS. For all 3 rolls there are better choices than anything the Sorc can bring.

Interweb's is full of proof of youtube video's and detailed breakdown's on 15k+ sustained DPS parses of every class except Sorc's.

However ZoS doesn't give a *** about Sorc's so realistically you guys are arguing over nothing (look at the history of the Sorc being last to other classes, and how much attention they are given compared to other classes and this is easy to validated).

Vahrokh

Snit wrote: »

Heavy Armor or Stam sorcs would disagree, and rightly so. But I'm not playing either of those.

I did, and it used to be awesome.

Anyway, due to ward mechanics, at this point does wearing 1 heavy armor item while also using ward help? or not?

Glantir

The 1 second cast of Crystal Frag is a lie.... its definitely more than 1 second. please fix it

My Execute deal about 1,2k dmg + the explosion 6k dmg (8-9k on crit) if i comparing it with the NB (stamina morph)and the Temp skill....

They should give the Temp execute to the Sorc... ^^

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

jircris11 wrote: »

I remember when people played a class because they liked it. It did not mater if it was "weak" so long as they enjoyed it. Now days it seems to be all about the big numbers and that is not what a game is about. Games are meant to relax and forget your stress of the day not stress over that extra 10k dmg your not getting.

Somewhat true...
But if the population starts to shun certain classes for group based play, they the fun of character reaches a finite limit.

kokoandshinb14a_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

I already have the badge.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/ <= 12K DPs
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/ <= 11k DPS
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ <=12K DPS with 70 CP (so a couple K more I suppose with 90 & crit bonus)

These values are on par with most current magicka builds and are probably not fully optimized, there is also a strong chance people with even better builds are not sharing them, after all it took us months to release our exact FOO build for DKs.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/sorcerer-class/ <= A place to discuss builds & learn instead of complaining about imaginary nerfs.

Yep, and not a single one of those is a stamina sorc build which happens to be what I have been discussing. Go play a stamina sorc in PvP for 6+ months as I have, then you can come back and have an intelligent discussion on what sorcs need or don't need. Enjoy your DK and congrats on your post achievement?

Stamina Sorc is current PVP king, if it's not working for you, you must be doing something wrong. And you've been having this discussion mainly with yourself since this post is about PVE sorcs, not PVP sorcs who are clearly OP.

6 months + seems like an utter waste of your time if you're failing at your main class when most of others are succeeding and loving it

I'm curious to know what the current meta is for stam based pvp sorcs.

Atropos over at tamriel has been very slow to a knowledge his reaver for 1.6.

I keep hearing about some guy named

Sabre ali (is this a sypher alt? As all his surnames are Ali) who was a pvp beast sorc, but has switch classes in 1.6.

The way I see it for stam sorcs atm is zero differentiation between a 2h dk, temp, or nb, as the bulk of the damage will be from wrecking blow.

Imo, I'd really like to see a shield morph that's stam based, along with some of the other suffer I posted earlier and other threads.

Lastly, what irritates me to no end is that destruction staff powers seem to emulate and be in line with the types of casting powers associated with a wizard.


PS
The real solution for the game Imo, is to have different class specific powers within the weapon lines themselves.

So sorcs let's say when using a 2h, maybe don't open the uppercut line, but open up a lightning based melee power that stuns, does comp wb dps, but uses magic pool and spell damage for its coeffients.

Emma_Overload

Snit wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The biggest problem with Ward as a healing mechanic is that each cast overwrites the previous one. Your Max Health effectively becomes the Damage Point size of the Ward, and you are reduced to ZERO percent mitigation for the duration of the fight.

My effective hit point bar with a ward up is 12k of unmitigated shield + 21k of slightly armored health.

That's fine some of the time, but what happens in practice with large groups of very tough mobs is that your 21K of Health dribbles away and the 12K Ward is all you've got. You're basically undead at that point, LOL, kept alive only by your Ward! If the mobs are weak, then they die before you do, if not...

Robocles

Heh... the new forums. I didn't think it could get any more useless. Well, that's except for the PTS forums... but meh.

Grao

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

As a sorcerer main I will agree with some of what you stated. It is true Sorcerers weren't nerfed, they were rebalanced, though unsuccessfully.

Yes, our DPS is higher when compared to 1.5, but it is still not the best Magicka DPS, no, that spot now belongs to Templars thanks to their absurd execution. Zenimax didn't failed as much to give Sorcerer good numbers though, no, the class large issue right now is flexibility and utility and those are the factors that determine if a class is attractive to end game PvE content, if not viable.

Flexibility: With 1.6 all the other classes were offered good alternatives for Stamina DPS yet all Sorcerer morphs towards stamina are or useless or relate to stamina management (with the possible exception of Bound Armaments). Dark Conversion is possibly one of the most useless abilities ever conceived for PvE DPS and Critical Surge is beyond horrible, not just because of the new cd to its healing effect, but because of its absurd cost.
As for the class capacity to Heal or Tank, well, lets be honest, ESO only has one Healing class and that is Templars. No smart raid leader will bring anything but templars to heal and Tanks? I don't know, but DKs are overwhelmingly better on that role. I do think with a few changes, specially to the pets, that sorcerers could be better healers and very good tanks. It is the lost potential that frustrates me the most when going over the sorcerer skills.

Utility: Simple, Sorcerers have no Utility. Let me say it again, Sorcerers have NO UTILITY. The problem with that? Well, Utility determinate if a class is or isn't NEEDED for a Trial Group, for instance. I am not saying a Sorcerer can't go through a Trial, but we are not NEEDED. All the other classes are needed.
You NEED Veils, so you NEED Nightblades. You NEED Corrosive Armor, so you NEED DKs. You NEED Novas, so you NEED Templars. What can sorcerers provide to the raid group? 3% Spell Crit? 8% damage reduction every class can easily get from at least 3 different spells? We are not NEEDED and that is the class most prominent problem. Nerfing Negate only made this more evident.

Now, if sorcerers were overwhelmingly better as DPS it would compensate for their lack of flexibility and utility. Unfortunately we are far from the best DPS.

smacx250

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

Snit wrote: »

Emma_Eunjung wrote: »

The biggest problem with Ward as a healing mechanic is that each cast overwrites the previous one. Your Max Health effectively becomes the Damage Point size of the Ward, and you are reduced to ZERO percent mitigation for the duration of the fight.

My effective hit point bar with a ward up is 12k of unmitigated shield + 21k of slightly armored health.

That's fine some of the time, but what happens in practice with large groups of very tough mobs is that your 21K of Health dribbles away and the 12K Ward is all you've got. You're basically undead at that point, LOL, kept alive only by your Ward! If the mobs are weak, then they die before you do, if not...

Yup. If it were a heal I'd be healed 100% in two instants. But with ward, I'm only at 50% no matter how much I spam it. Also, no type of mitigation (block, lightning form, bound armor, etc.) does anything to help ward, but they do for health. As an aside from the DPS discussion - as a mainly solo sorc who isn't (yet) using summons, 1.6 so far has been a hit to me taking on larger mob groups, where single target seems like it is generally better.

Dazin93

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

kokoandshinb14a_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

pugyourself wrote: »

OP, do you have anything besides hot air to back up your assertions? Many posters have cast doubt on your assertions by providing combat numbers. Can you please screenshot some stats that back up your assertions?

Please provide and numbers provided by posters since I've seen none. All I see is people saying "my old build doesn't work" which, once again, is true for the other classes as well and doesn't mean the class was nerfed, just look at templar DPS, their old builds dun work, yet they are pulling insane DPS.

And I actually provided some numbers as well as an explanation you seem to have fixed that states that DPS is no longer the most important thing in trials which is why small differences don't actually matter.

I've tested the system and the raids since 1.6 came on PTS and I've been testing the leaderboard system to see exactly what makes it tick, what do you or any other sorc that hasn't been raiding in 1.5 because they struggled to get a group have to back up your/their assertions about the viability of Sorcs in raids?

I saw some combat stats on page four of this thread. While not verbose, it's a lot more "evidence" than you have provided to back up your controversial assertions.

I noticed you backed off your thread title a bit and responded to another poster that because "Sorcs were useless then and are useless now" that somehow your thread title is accurate. Even if sorcs stayed the same and other classes were buffed, that's a de facto nerf for sorcs.

This thread deserves to be nerfed as it is an opinion piece masquerading as fact with absolutely no evidence to back up what you are saying. The title is designed simply to provoke the thousands of sorcs who are not happy about their class being nerfed.

The evidence has been posted in forums by people like @pppontus and there are plenty of good builds in Tamriel Foundry pulling 8-11k DPS (which is much more than the guys i've seen pull 3-6k Dps in AA and HRC), in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPsWtB6spvI you can see templar stamina pulling 13K DPs which is more than most magicka sets from other classes will be pulled on that boss.

As for "the stats" in page 4, it's ridiculous you consider them as evidence since it concerns PVP sorcs and if there is one place where there is no contest that sorcs are OP, it's PVP. I commented tonight in teamspeak in a Hardcore PVP guild that people where complaining about sorcs on forums and everybody was just plain laughing out loud because of how ridiculously good they are in PVP.

I didn't back off my thread. Sorcs aren't nerfed it's a fact, and in worst case scenario which won't be proven for months, they will end up as useless as they used to be and in that case people should complain that changes are not enough, not that the class was nerfed since if you compare PVE or PVP, it's not true. You just can't play it as you used to, and if you refuse to conform that's your problem and not related to the class being nerfed.

As for 'this thread deserves bla bla bla" you're plain and simply refusing to acknowledge that it's not all about numbers and the leaderboard points aren't just about pulling top DPS which means skill and decent DPS will be more important than uber top DPS. I've been saying this over and over again, all you keep talking about is numbers. Makes me wonder if you're trying to argue or just complain a bit more that you don't like how sorcs are.

"Even if sorcs stayed the same and others classes where buffed": Only templar DPS seems stronger, all other classes are nerfed and Light armor is nerfed. Moreover, the fact you even think you can easily compare 1.5 to 1.6 means you understand nothing of the changes introduced into the game.

In then end, you've got people complaining about their old playstyle not working when others have prooven that the class is viable and capable of good DPS and utility in PVE as in PVP, and you raid leaders of top raiding guilds who have always said sorcs sucked and needed buff who are stating that sorcs aren't nerfed.

Keep believing what you want, I'm done talking to you. I doubt ZOS will buff sorcs and in any case with your set of mind, any buff they introduce will never be enough. At least meanwhile others will be enjoying themselves and partaking in raids.

The biggest concern is see here with this video is that the dps here isn't related to a Stam sorc.

The dps here is a representation of any class that specs into 2h weapon.

So perhaps what sorcs need is no stam based morphs, but instead have weapon skills based off their magika.

In fact in the era of togglemancy, how about we change one of the surge morphs into a 20sec buff that does just that.... makes sorcs who use melee weapons now scale their damage based off of magika rather that stamina?

Exactly right, you nailed it as it has nothing to do with sorc class skills. The OP throws up numbers that have no bearing on his assertions and then bashes another poster for their "fixation" with numbers. On paper, a stamina sorc is capable of putting up similar DPS in PvP through use of non-class skills, yet it is so lacking in terms of survivability and sustainability that the potential DPS doesn't matter.

By the rate of nonsensical responses, I think the OP is quickly working towards his 2,500 comments badge

I already have the badge.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-x-nyblings-magicka-based-sorc-dps-champion-rank-71/ <= 12K DPs
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-6-the-unholy-herdsman-thelons-pet-build/ <= 11k DPS
http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/1-6-sorceress-petless-by-pppontus-70-cp/ <=12K DPS with 70 CP (so a couple K more I suppose with 90 & crit bonus)

These values are on par with most current magicka builds and are probably not fully optimized, there is also a strong chance people with even better builds are not sharing them, after all it took us months to release our exact FOO build for DKs.

http://tamrielfoundry.com/forum/classes/sorcerer-class/ <= A place to discuss builds & learn instead of complaining about imaginary nerfs.

Yep, and not a single one of those is a stamina sorc build which happens to be what I have been discussing. Go play a stamina sorc in PvP for 6+ months as I have, then you can come back and have an intelligent discussion on what sorcs need or don't need. Enjoy your DK and congrats on your post achievement?

Stamina Sorc is current PVP king, if it's not working for you, you must be doing something wrong. And you've been having this discussion mainly with yourself since this post is about PVE sorcs, not PVP sorcs who are clearly OP.

6 months + seems like an utter waste of your time if you're failing at your main class when most of others are succeeding and loving it

I'm curious to know what the current meta is for stam based pvp sorcs.

Atropos over at tamriel has been very slow to a knowledge his reaver for 1.6.

I keep hearing about some guy named

Sabre ali (is this a sypher alt? As all his surnames are Ali) who was a pvp beast sorc, but has switch classes in 1.6.

The way I see it for stam sorcs atm is zero differentiation between a 2h dk, temp, or nb, as the bulk of the damage will be from wrecking blow.

Imo, I'd really like to see a shield morph that's stam based, along with some of the other suffer I posted earlier and other threads.

Lastly, what irritates me to no end is that destruction staff powers seem to emulate and be in line with the types of casting powers associated with a wizard.


PS
The real solution for the game Imo, is to have different class specific powers within the weapon lines themselves.

So sorcs let's say when using a 2h, maybe don't open the uppercut line, but open up a lightning based melee power that stuns, does comp wb dps, but uses magic pool and spell damage for its coeffients.

There is no current meta for stam based PvP sorcs because they aren't viable. Atropos' reaver build wasn't viable in PvP since people learned to stack impenetrable on armor which was quite awhile ago. The best combo up to 1.6 imo was bow/2h capitalizing on rush/surge synergies and being able to stack weapon power for good burst dps.

The OP keeps throwing out remarks that are ridiculously untrue and disproven by a number of experienced players. If he thinks sorcs are fine outside of magicka builds he is welcome to his opinion but the vast majority disagree.

gurugeorgey

I'm new to this rodeo, but from what I've seen, the OP mis-characterizes the QQ-ing.

From what I've seen, the complaints seem to be more about how the other classes (especially the DK) can do more with less effort - i.e. it's a claim of imbalance among the classes and poorness of Sorc performance relative to the other classes, not a complaint that Sorcs aren't OP, or a request to be OP, and not even a complaint that a Sorc is totally unusable.

I'm not experienced enough in the game to know just how viable that complaint is, but it doesn't do to mistake it for what it's not.

diwie

pppontus wrote: »

#negateisnotuseless #sorclove

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uCFFSELXzE

Ok.. I thought it was fun at least.

Have been having some great fun with a double sorc dps team lately!

great video, thanks for that part

Xsorus

It takes all but 10 minutes of PvPing to figure out Sorcs aren't nerfed...but rather should be.

There is no counter to Shield Stacking right now

jwboudreau1b16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

They are actually more useful than before.

"But I die faster": Everybody in LA dies faster. Not a sorc nerf, global nerf.
"But Negate was nerfed": It wasn't really needed anywhere anyways in PVE and was overpowered in PVP (wher sorcs feel stronger than b4, those that know how to play anyways).
"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.
" But I'm pullin less DPS than other classes:" What's the difference with 1.5?
" But the DPS difference is wider than before": It actually isn't when you're using a good build and it's a very subjective statement since all the values have changed and many people are still testing things.

Conclusion:
Sorc wasn't nerfed. At best you can say it still sucks as much as before, and IMO it's too soon to tell .

Now please stop spamming the forum with your QQ posts and biased polls. Ask for buffs I can understand, but crying and complaining about "nerfs" just because you're frustrated that you're still not OP is annoying and counter-productive. Remember that the game just basically relaunched and people are still testing stuff. Instead of complaining over here, your time would be better spent trying to create a good build or figuring out and giving feedback on some aspects that could help buffing the class a little bit.

Edit:
A class viability isn't determined by comparing Healing/damage/CC capacities between 1.5 and 1.6 it's determined by the overall usefulness of the class in 1.6 compared to the overall usefulness of the class in 1.5 and after less than 2 weeks of 1.6 it's too soon to say that Sorcs where nerfed in PVE since we are barely scratching the surface of the new leaderboard system.

Sorcerers were most certainly nerfed. They used to be high damage, self sustaining classes. In fact, I could pretty much solo everything. I really doubt that this was the intention of the developers, so I understand why sorcerer was nerfed, but the class was definitely nerfed. I can barely take on a group of 3 PVE enemies with my sorcerer now.

Admittedly, I haven't taken much time to look at other build options. I've tried out a few, but they just didn't seem to flow well. They've made NB's much better in this patch, so I've been having a great time with him.

jwboudreau1b16_ESO

TehMagnus wrote: »

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.

Also, this isn't really true. My DK, Templar, and NB build from 1.5 are just as effective, if not more effective, with the 1.6 launch. People are upset because Sorcerers now don't really have a reasonable self heal and light armour is far squishier than it was before. Both of these differences mean that running dungeons is very difficult.

The only successful solo builds that I've seen post 1.6 have included the use of pets, which is fine, but a lot of people aren't fans of pets.

Nyteshade

So the premise is that it's too soon to say that sorcs were nerfed, so the OP concludes sorcs were not nerfed?

I have a new acronym. L2L. Learn to Logic.

Valymer

Nyteshade wrote: »

So the premise is that it's too soon to say that sorcs were nerfed, so the OP concludes sorcs were not nerfed?

I have a new acronym. L2L. Learn to Logic.

Logic generally has no place on these forums, I've found.

Vahrokh

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.

Also, this isn't really true. My DK, Templar, and NB build from 1.5 are just as effective, if not more effective, with the 1.6 launch. People are upset because Sorcerers now don't really have a reasonable self heal and light armour is far squishier than it was before. Both of these differences mean that running dungeons is very difficult.

The only successful solo builds that I've seen post 1.6 have included the use of pets, which is fine, but a lot of people aren't fans of pets.

I have created a build that looks promising for soloing. I am testing it in delves of increasing level and public dungeons. So far I have found 3 remarks:

1) Clanfear looks way, less resilient than I recall it used to be. Used to tank outdoor bosses with it, now it just dies.

2) Your heal now is a shield. The days of healing springs etc. are gone. This looks cute, it's like ZoS have copied by Dragon Age Inquisition (where they removed any healing and now "healers" just apply shields). But the high spells mana costs can quickly spell your death. Old sorc DPS was lower in my patch <= 1.5 "survivalist solo everything" but I'd never die.
Now it's a timed DPS race, you either kill quick or you die.

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

Iago

Vahrokh wrote: »

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.

Also, this isn't really true. My DK, Templar, and NB build from 1.5 are just as effective, if not more effective, with the 1.6 launch. People are upset because Sorcerers now don't really have a reasonable self heal and light armour is far squishier than it was before. Both of these differences mean that running dungeons is very difficult.

The only successful solo builds that I've seen post 1.6 have included the use of pets, which is fine, but a lot of people aren't fans of pets.

I have created a build that looks promising for soloing. I am testing it in delves of increasing level and public dungeons. So far I have found 3 remarks:

1) Clanfear looks way, less resilient than I recall it used to be. Used to tank outdoor bosses with it, now it just dies.

2) Your heal now is a shield. The days of healing springs etc. are gone. This looks cute, it's like ZoS have copied by Dragon Age Inquisition (where they removed any healing and now "healers" just apply shields). But the high spells mana costs can quickly spell your death. Old sorc DPS was lower in my patch <= 1.5 "survivalist solo everything" but I'd never die.
Now it's a timed DPS race, you either kill quick or you die.

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

So what shall happen next? That TehMagnus plays a DK / Templar so he won't get affected at all. Pppontus will switch to another of his VR14 characters.

And we, the real sorcs with high emotional attachment to our character, won't have any fall back and we will get the hard bone.

my clanfear still tanks world bosses nicely. I have soloed all but two world bosses in DC and also soled every DC public dungeon. Specs do have an awesome heal. Dark exchange not only restores health but magicka as well.

Joy_Division

jircris11 wrote: »

I remember when people played a class because they liked it. It did not mater if it was "weak" so long as they enjoyed it. Now days it seems to be all about the big numbers and that is not what a game is about. Games are meant to relax and forget your stress of the day not stress over that extra 10k dmg your not getting.

When was this? I've never like playing a weak class and I've been gaming since the 1980s.

Snit wrote: »

I have changed my mind completely on the class heal issue. I think Magicka Sorcs are in excellent shape in that regard, despite Surge being gutted. Conjured Ward is as good as a heal for Light Armor classes. Here is my thinking:

- I stack spell power, but I still have a decent amount of magicka. Depending on what is slotted, it's usually about 27 to 28k
- Hardened Ward gives me an instant shield of about 12k. Because it is zero mitigation, that is not like having 12k additional health (In 5L/1H/1M & 7,377 armor, I believe my armor mitigation is about 13%)
- Ward is therefore worth approximately 10k hit points. That's equivalent to 50% of my base health

That's not a bad heal, 50%. When you consider that magicka sorcs are usually in light armor and have poor mitigation, a shield is nearly as good as actual healing, in terms of time-to-live. Add in the fact that I can pre-cast one before combat, and I think it's pretty darned nice.

First caveat: It doesn't actually heal you. If I'm in a group with a healer, though, this gives them time to get to me. If I'm solo, I almost certainly have resto staff on the swap, so I can deal with it myself once I have literally stopped the bleeding with a Ward.

Second caveat: These shields do little good for stamina sorcs or for the occasional heavy armor sorc (and I didn't even know these were a thing until Teargrants tore me a new sorc-hole in Cyro a few days ago). For stamina sorcs, however, Rally provides a pretty good consolation prize.

In short, bind Hardened Ward to a mouse button in situations where you need self-healing and you'll find you don't miss the old Surge nearly as much.

Some problems with the "ward" heal.

1) As others pointed out, it's not real health and this does not mitigate damage.

2) Your health is still low and thus are vulnerable to execute abilities.

3) Surge heals allow you to heal *while* damaging the enemy. Ward healing means you lose the initiative and are no longer attacking the enemy.

pppontus

Vahrokh wrote: »

jwboudreau1b16_ESO wrote: »

TehMagnus wrote: »

"But x Skill was nerfed": It wasn't nerfed it was changed as where many others. If you expect to use the same build from 1.5 and have it still work in 1.6, you can be damn sure it won't work, then again, it's the same for other classes, not Sorc nerf, just a new game.

Also, this isn't really true. My DK, Templar, and NB build from 1.5 are just as effective, if not more effective, with the 1.6 launch. People are upset because Sorcerers now don't really have a reasonable self heal and light armour is far squishier than it was before. Both of these differences mean that running dungeons is very difficult.

The only successful solo builds that I've seen post 1.6 have included the use of pets, which is fine, but a lot of people aren't fans of pets.

3) ALL of these builds, beginning with Pppontus and ending with... well... everyone else bar few exceptions, TOTALLY RELY on very intelligently allocated Martial Knowledge + Adroitness set (+ Cyrodil's Light rings).

ZoS SHALL nerf and remove this synergy. Because from a design point of view, it's unacceptable to have THE ONE combo to dominate them all. They will nerf it and then suddenly even TehMagnus and Pppontus will lose an additional 2-3k DPS and at this point sorcs will be doing half the damage the other classes do. Because there are other +spell damage sets, but they don't come close with their bonus, nor you can "magically" fit so many +spell damage bonuses on a single character with those other sets any more.

Are you serious?! What do you think exactly every Magicka build in the entirety of ESO uses right now? Of every single effing class?

Yep, same.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Flaming]