brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials is DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it wnds, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they one it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dosing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still too with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

"I'm only level 30 and haven't done any high end pvp or pve"

Then should you really be commenting?

xaraan wrote: »

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

Pets and Bound Armor cost two skill slots to be used. You can't place them on just one bar because swapping weapons will de-summon them for no reason.

That wasn't how ZOS originally designed them. One high profile beta tester (who I won't name) decided to make a stink about them and ZOS changed it to two slots. Early on you could freely swap weapons with the pet on only one bar.

This is a pretty absurd change because they already take away a permanent magicka cost while summoned (which was ZOS's plan for a use penalty.) They also simply aren't good enough to warrant double the skill slots as other skills since they're weaker than most things in the game.

The ridiculously high initial magicka cost makes re-summoning every time you swap weapons a non viable play style.

And I'm not in favor of rolling back every nerf. The nerf to bolt escape was simply dumb and bad game making. They were being reactionary to a vocal minority of pretty uninformed players who were crying because they hadn't bothered to learn counters. The nerf went way to far (all four of them) and needs to be partially undone.

The nerf to negate was also ridiculous. It's an area of denial skill. It doesn't do any damage. There is zero reason to cap the effect. But then I think k AoE caps are dumb on any skill, ultimates in particular.

Yes I should be commenting, if my lvl 30 can go 1v1 with vet 1-vet 4 players and come out the victor, I'm pretty positive that means I'm doing something right. I haven't tried going 1v1 against anyone higher than that mainly because I don't know any with team speak that would give a lvl 30 the time of day to duel. And any higher than vet 4 is just going to be a pure lvl advantage even if they are crap at PvP. So there isn't much I can say for end game PvP, which in all honesty is the same as it has been since lvl 10 with just larger health, magicka and stam pools. As for DSA and trials, I eventually want to do them on my sorc although I'll prolly reach that goal with my dk or nb first since they are already in the vet ranks. But I can't honestly see much changing in my current build for end game other than possibly not using pets since trying to control them in groups can be a hassle and wipe the group. To which I end with again, if you are having trouble playing a sorc, learn how to build a character.

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

Lots and lots of ways to get perma blockers to let go of that button, but you're right, sometimes I run up against someone that just wants to sit there and turtle. I just leave them there.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't want sorcs to have another option to heal, or for impenetrable to work differently; I was just pointing out one way that you can get a pretty consistent heal off with crit surge. If you are in a a melee with multiple enemies, it's pretty easy to spot someone without a block up and hit that charge to get your heal.

Nightreaver wrote: »

• CURSE - Would also like to see a DOT included and/or being able to cast on multiple targets. I can see where casting multiple curses on same target might be OP. You could start spamming from the start and gain almost no agro for the first 3.5 seconds but once the first one hits and the rest quickly behind it that would be a lot of DPS.

zaria wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

because the sorcerer now is ok...the best rank in pvp is a sorcerer...
repeat stop cry
dont broke the game...
in craglon all search sorcerers dps....what do you want inmortality?
LEARN TO PLAY

Can you please inform me how i get close to 1k dps against bosses?
Two requirement, an magic build and no very rare armor sets.
Why a magic build? Simply because its the archtype build for sorcerer, if I wanted to use an bow I would rolled a nightblade.

Arioco396 wrote: »

the best a sorcerer....
https://imageshack.com/i/exyngIdqp

my DK is The Neuromancer, rank 33 ( ebon. )playing alone, no so bad..

Arioco396 wrote: »

I correct only:

You got me curious so I checked the Leader boards
Top overall - DK
Top AD - Templar
Top DC - DK
Top EB - Templar
Top Trial - Out of the 12 person raid only 1 was a Sorcerer
Top Arena - Top team contained zero Sorcerers