Fixing Sorceres in 1.6

DeLindsay

Dracane wrote: »

Impenetrable is not overpowered. The other traits are just trash and even impenetrable is not really good, since few people even use crits and receiving crits is so hard anyway, since damage against blocks and damage shields can't crit and each good player has such things.

So impenetrable is very situational and even then, it's no big protection against crits. Infused and divine need buffs, that's all.

I don't think you understand what Impenetrable actually does. With enough pcs of Impen on your gear you can literally negate ALL critical hits on you from other players, regardless of how much crit % they have. It's the go-to standard Trait for PvP, in PvE at most you wear 2 off-pcs so that Trash in Trials doesn't 1-shot you, but even then it's situational and many don't now that Health got a buff and the ~2300 Health standard for Trials is actually more like 2600-2700+. Infused does not need a buff, but Divines could use one yes, even if it's only double what it is now.

Arioco396

stop cry the sorcerers..i have one sorcerer top 1 in a campaign ... Do learn to play ( MAL )
what else is there in pvp sorceres and archers
Now i play in pvp with a Dk and some sorcerers kill me...learn to play

Dazin93

Arioco396 wrote: »

stop cry the sorcerers..i have one sorcerer top 1 in a campaign ... Do learn to play ( MAL )
what else is there in pvp sorceres and archers
Now i play in pvp with a Dk and some sorcerers kill me...learn to play

Why even post if you are not going to contribute anything meaningful to the discussion. smh

Arioco396

because the sorcerer now is ok...the best rank in pvp is a sorcerer...
repeat stop cry
dont broke the game...
in craglon all search sorcerers dps....what do you want inmortality?
LEARN TO PLAY

NotSo

Deleted

Gorthax

Arioco396 wrote: »

because the sorcerer now is ok...the best rank in pvp is a sorcerer...
repeat stop cry
dont broke the game...
in craglon all search sorcerers dps....what do you want inmortality?
LEARN TO PLAY

I am just going to take this as a troll lol Sorcs are no where near as good as they should be. Once the tears came flowing from everyone that they could get away or that they could do this and they could do that, the nerf bat hit us so hard that we never recovered.

Are sure playing game same you?!

NordJitsu

@Epsilon_Echo‌

Have you seen my posts defending Talons recently, saying it doesn't need more nerfs? Or arguing that there are better ways they could deal with Reflective Scales, though I agree that it needs rebalancing? After the RS nerf, I think DKs will be pretty well balanced. Honestly, that move may just push NB to number 1. This thread isn't about nerfing anyone, it's about buffing the sorc (and I think Templar needs buffs too.)

I'm also not singling out Magicka Sorcs over Stamina Sorcs. I never said Crit Surge should be changed to Spell Power only. I said I think it should either increase both or that there should be different morph options to pick one or the other.

I am however exclusively talking about class skills in this thread, which all cost magicka. That doesn't at all mean that the buffs I'm suggesting wouldn't help Stamina sorcs as well though.

Early on in this game I really wanted to build a Dual Wield/Bow Sorc that used Bound Armor and Winged Twilight as his only class skills. Most of the rest of your skills would be Stamina based weapon skills, except for maybe Mages Fury for executes, so the permanent reduction in overall magicka from the toggles wouldn't hurt that much. Unfortunately, the uselessness of Bound Armor and Winged Twilight and the fact that just to use those 2 skills would require 4/10 slots made that a non-viable build.

Edit:

Also, I'm not saying that it's impossible to be good with a Sorcerer. I do quite well in Gold-pledges and PvP (whether group or solo.)

But that doesn't mean the class doesn't have problems, just because I'm not personally struggling with what I want to do.

As I said, there are only a very few ways to build a good sorcerer, unlike the other classes. That's because so many of our skills just really don't have any place on a end-game bar.

I also think, while you CAN be good as a sorcerer in PvP, it takes more skill than any other class. So if you're an average DK, you probably feel pretty damn good about yourself. If you're an average Sorc, you probably feel like you suck.

Arioco396

ian92415b14_ESO ✭✭✭
10:46PM edited 10:47PM
Whatever country you are from, I hope they are good people and you do not represent them.

that is an argument....

Dymence

DeLindsay wrote: »

in PvE at most you wear 2 off-pcs so that Trash in Trials doesn't 1-shot you

Impenetrable in PVE is useless. Mobs can't crit.

Dracane

Good, coffee is not good for you anyway. I should keep on posting such things.

brandon.2023b14_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials is DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it wnds, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they one it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dosing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still too with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

"I'm only level 30 and haven't done any high end pvp or pve"

Then should you really be commenting?

xaraan wrote: »

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

Pets and Bound Armor cost two skill slots to be used. You can't place them on just one bar because swapping weapons will de-summon them for no reason.

That wasn't how ZOS originally designed them. One high profile beta tester (who I won't name) decided to make a stink about them and ZOS changed it to two slots. Early on you could freely swap weapons with the pet on only one bar.

This is a pretty absurd change because they already take away a permanent magicka cost while summoned (which was ZOS's plan for a use penalty.) They also simply aren't good enough to warrant double the skill slots as other skills since they're weaker than most things in the game.

The ridiculously high initial magicka cost makes re-summoning every time you swap weapons a non viable play style.

And I'm not in favor of rolling back every nerf. The nerf to bolt escape was simply dumb and bad game making. They were being reactionary to a vocal minority of pretty uninformed players who were crying because they hadn't bothered to learn counters. The nerf went way to far (all four of them) and needs to be partially undone.

The nerf to negate was also ridiculous. It's an area of denial skill. It doesn't do any damage. There is zero reason to cap the effect. But then I think k AoE caps are dumb on any skill, ultimates in particular.

Yes I should be commenting, if my lvl 30 can go 1v1 with vet 1-vet 4 players and come out the victor, I'm pretty positive that means I'm doing something right. I haven't tried going 1v1 against anyone higher than that mainly because I don't know any with team speak that would give a lvl 30 the time of day to duel. And any higher than vet 4 is just going to be a pure lvl advantage even if they are crap at PvP. So there isn't much I can say for end game PvP, which in all honesty is the same as it has been since lvl 10 with just larger health, magicka and stam pools. As for DSA and trials, I eventually want to do them on my sorc although I'll prolly reach that goal with my dk or nb first since they are already in the vet ranks. But I can't honestly see much changing in my current build for end game other than possibly not using pets since trying to control them in groups can be a hassle and wipe the group. To which I end with again, if you are having trouble playing a sorc, learn how to build a character.

NordJitsu

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials is DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it wnds, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they one it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dosing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still too with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

"I'm only level 30 and haven't done any high end pvp or pve"

Then should you really be commenting?

xaraan wrote: »

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

Pets and Bound Armor cost two skill slots to be used. You can't place them on just one bar because swapping weapons will de-summon them for no reason.

That wasn't how ZOS originally designed them. One high profile beta tester (who I won't name) decided to make a stink about them and ZOS changed it to two slots. Early on you could freely swap weapons with the pet on only one bar.

This is a pretty absurd change because they already take away a permanent magicka cost while summoned (which was ZOS's plan for a use penalty.) They also simply aren't good enough to warrant double the skill slots as other skills since they're weaker than most things in the game.

The ridiculously high initial magicka cost makes re-summoning every time you swap weapons a non viable play style.

And I'm not in favor of rolling back every nerf. The nerf to bolt escape was simply dumb and bad game making. They were being reactionary to a vocal minority of pretty uninformed players who were crying because they hadn't bothered to learn counters. The nerf went way to far (all four of them) and needs to be partially undone.

The nerf to negate was also ridiculous. It's an area of denial skill. It doesn't do any damage. There is zero reason to cap the effect. But then I think k AoE caps are dumb on any skill, ultimates in particular.

Yes I should be commenting, if my lvl 30 can go 1v1 with vet 1-vet 4 players and come out the victor, I'm pretty positive that means I'm doing something right. I haven't tried going 1v1 against anyone higher than that mainly because I don't know any with team speak that would give a lvl 30 the time of day to duel. And any higher than vet 4 is just going to be a pure lvl advantage even if they are crap at PvP. So there isn't much I can say for end game PvP, which in all honesty is the same as it has been since lvl 10 with just larger health, magicka and stam pools. As for DSA and trials, I eventually want to do them on my sorc although I'll prolly reach that goal with my dk or nb first since they are already in the vet ranks. But I can't honestly see much changing in my current build for end game other than possibly not using pets since trying to control them in groups can be a hassle and wipe the group. To which I end with again, if you are having trouble playing a sorc, learn how to build a character.

Any Veteran Rank character who lost to your level 30 is simply terrible. That's not an accomplishment. In fact, you should feel bad for picking on them. Where they, perhaps, afk? Or perhaps it was a very small child playing.

Regardless, this has nothing to do with "learning how to build a character." I regularly go on 40 kill streaks in Cyrodil. I've been PvPing in this game since September 2013.

Sorcerer's are objectively the weakest class (as in numerically in terms of DPS). Does that mean that excellent players can't do well with them? Of course not. But it does mean that they need to be buffed.

Gorthax

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials is DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it wnds, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they one it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dosing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still too with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

"I'm only level 30 and haven't done any high end pvp or pve"

Then should you really be commenting?

xaraan wrote: »

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

Pets and Bound Armor cost two skill slots to be used. You can't place them on just one bar because swapping weapons will de-summon them for no reason.

That wasn't how ZOS originally designed them. One high profile beta tester (who I won't name) decided to make a stink about them and ZOS changed it to two slots. Early on you could freely swap weapons with the pet on only one bar.

This is a pretty absurd change because they already take away a permanent magicka cost while summoned (which was ZOS's plan for a use penalty.) They also simply aren't good enough to warrant double the skill slots as other skills since they're weaker than most things in the game.

The ridiculously high initial magicka cost makes re-summoning every time you swap weapons a non viable play style.

And I'm not in favor of rolling back every nerf. The nerf to bolt escape was simply dumb and bad game making. They were being reactionary to a vocal minority of pretty uninformed players who were crying because they hadn't bothered to learn counters. The nerf went way to far (all four of them) and needs to be partially undone.

The nerf to negate was also ridiculous. It's an area of denial skill. It doesn't do any damage. There is zero reason to cap the effect. But then I think k AoE caps are dumb on any skill, ultimates in particular.

Yes I should be commenting, if my lvl 30 can go 1v1 with vet 1-vet 4 players and come out the victor, I'm pretty positive that means I'm doing something right. I haven't tried going 1v1 against anyone higher than that mainly because I don't know any with team speak that would give a lvl 30 the time of day to duel. And any higher than vet 4 is just going to be a pure lvl advantage even if they are crap at PvP. So there isn't much I can say for end game PvP, which in all honesty is the same as it has been since lvl 10 with just larger health, magicka and stam pools. As for DSA and trials, I eventually want to do them on my sorc although I'll prolly reach that goal with my dk or nb first since they are already in the vet ranks. But I can't honestly see much changing in my current build for end game other than possibly not using pets since trying to control them in groups can be a hassle and wipe the group. To which I end with again, if you are having trouble playing a sorc, learn how to build a character.

I don't think it's really a learn to build a Characater issue. It's more along the lines of ZOS screwed the pooch on all four classes. Every class is VERY limited for builds in pvp. Some have more viable options than others. In this scenario it just so happens that the sorcs have extremely less. No one can deny that lol its more of a learn to use what you got. Again what we sorcs have is extremely limited more so than others.

Shinon

btw. you can control your pets by just using Y + leftmouse for attacking target or Y + rightmouse to ignore everything and come to you

Xsorus

Gorthax wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Impenetrable is not overpowered. The other traits are just trash and even impenetrable is not really good, since few people even use crits and receiving crits is so hard anyway, since damage against blocks and damage shields can't crit and each good player has such things.

So impenetrable is very situational and even then, it's no big protection against crits. Infused and divine need buffs, that's all.

excuse me, I literally just spit my coffee out reading that. Funniest thing on these forums!! The bold part is where I spat my coffee out!

He's correct in terms of pvp, it's pointless to build for crit.

Derra

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

Lots and lots of ways to get perma blockers to let go of that button, but you're right, sometimes I run up against someone that just wants to sit there and turtle. I just leave them there.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't want sorcs to have another option to heal, or for impenetrable to work differently; I was just pointing out one way that you can get a pretty consistent heal off with crit surge. If you are in a a melee with multiple enemies, it's pretty easy to spot someone without a block up and hit that charge to get your heal.

If i have a 1v1 against a 2h user i don´t even need to block the crit charge. I just let them hit my shield and then block the following uppercut. I don´t think its possible to drain the stam of a competent enemy for any class (one of the biggest faults of the system imho)

You´re right against multiple enemys. Especially with Ball-Lightning and Storm Atronarch (Giant hitbox anyone) it synergizes really well with 2h.

zaria

Arioco396 wrote: »

because the sorcerer now is ok...the best rank in pvp is a sorcerer...
repeat stop cry
dont broke the game...
in craglon all search sorcerers dps....what do you want inmortality?
LEARN TO PLAY

Can you please inform me how i get close to 1k dps against bosses?
Two requirement, an magic build and no very rare armor sets.
Why a magic build? Simply because its the archtype build for sorcerer, if I wanted to use an bow I would rolled a nightblade.

Arioco396

I'm sorry, I hate to put these things on the forums ... it's part of the fun of the game, experience ... when things like this appears a lot of people doing the same ...
I like the variety

Nightreaver

Arioco396 wrote: »

stop cry the sorcerers..i have one sorcerer top 1 in a campaign ... Do learn to play ( MAL )

You got me curious so I checked the Leader boards
Top overall - DK
Top AD - Templar
Top DC - DK
Top EB - Templar
Top Trial - Out of the 12 person raid only 1 was a Sorcerer
Top Arena - Top team contained zero Sorcerers

Arioco396 wrote: »

Now i play in pvp with a Dk and some sorcerers kill me...learn to play

Hmmm... did you ever stop to consider that the reason you are getting killed by Sorcerers is because you need to L2P your DK?

• CURSE - Would also like to see a DOT included and/or being able to cast on multiple targets. I can see where casting multiple curses on same target might be OP. You could start spamming from the start and gain almost no agro for the first 3.5 seconds but once the first one hits and the rest quickly behind it that would be a lot of DPS.
• Surge - would like to see the damage buff removed from the base ability and replaced with the Crit Heal from the current Morph. That would give Sorcs earlier access to the heals for leveling as well as being available to both Stamina and Magicka builds. Then have morph 1 increase spell damage by 30 and morph 2 increase weapon damage by 60. (Numbers could change based on balance)
• Atronach - Remove the useless AOE morph and replace it with one identical to the ST morph but includes Taunt.
• Pets - Either remove the line or make them worth the 2 slots they each take up.
Maybe a heal that heals both the caster and the pet (Like Regeneration used to do)
Greater selection of pets (Tank, Healer, melee DPS, Ranged DPS)

Give everyone access to four class skill lines....(wait for it), allow them to pick only three.

I like the idea but what do you consider to be the 4 class lines?
Tank, Healer, DPS, Support?
Tank, Healer, Melee DPS, Ranged DPS?

NordJitsu

Nightreaver wrote: »

• CURSE - Would also like to see a DOT included and/or being able to cast on multiple targets. I can see where casting multiple curses on same target might be OP. You could start spamming from the start and gain almost no agro for the first 3.5 seconds but once the first one hits and the rest quickly behind it that would be a lot of DPS.

I think that you should be able to cast curse on multiple targets for sure. I don't think that a single Sorc should be able to cast curse on a single target.

But multiple Sorcs should be able to cast curse on a single target without removing the other person's damage.

So it should be source based.

Saint_JiubB14_ESO

so i wanted to throw in my two cents.

Dark Magic

Crystal Shards- 1.1 sec cast time for the whole skill and morph (bows get it out of stealth with more range and healing defbuff)

Crystal Blast (see blood magic changes)

Encase - reduce cost 20%, extend cone 5 meters, (see exploitation)
Shattering Prison (blood magic changes)

Run Prison- dump it. (cast time, single target, cc breakable, easy to accidentally break the cc.) I have come up with alternate replacements but they bare no resemblance to the current skill.

Dark Exchange- lower stam cost a bit
(Dark Deal), return the armor and spell resist at about 50% of what it was before.

Mines (why not in the daedirc summoning tree?), either lower cost dramatically, or make a maximum mine limit, say 15. that way a player can place, increase the base immobilization by 100%.

Blood magic, current bonuses but apply to each target hit by an attack. would make crystal blast more useful along with shattering prison. ADD 1pt/2pt ult generation for each target hit. ( keep in mind the skills and how easy they are to counter (interrupt[t, reflect, rapid maneuvers, dodge roll)

Exploitation: this passive always bothered me because its interactions were too iffy. remove while using a 'dark magic ability' basically if affected by dark magic: you get 15% increase to weapon+magic crit ratting on the target. more synergy between sorc builds, and with stam builds. ( alternatively, while affected by Dark Magic abilities, increase damage to blocking targets)

Negate: base ability could have a radius increase/ Cost reeducation but it is basically fine. the morphs need new effects imo.

Couple ideas

Inversion Field, which would dispel ground effects, but instead of silencing, would cause all spells cast by enemies inside to reflect.
OR silences and for each ground spell dispelled 5% casters max magicka dealt to enemies inside, capped at 35-40% (2200 magicka, 8 effects dispelled, 880 damage)

Suppression Field, current effect but increase all regen by 15% for friendlies, 30% for caster while inside. (alternatively healing received at 10/20%)

Storm Calling

BE remove nerfs, increase streak damage slightly

Lightning Splash, increase base radius.

Surge, just to work with changes to builds, give it a slightly reduced weapon damage (compared to now) and a proportionate Spell Damage buff

Crit Surge, increase crit rating for both weapon + spell by 6->10% as it progresses

Power surge, increased duration and more Weapon Spell Damage granted

Disintegration, add magicka restore on trigger.

Daedric Summoning
Too much broken so I will focus on the parts I see as salvageable.

Daedric Curse: multiple applications to separate targets.

Velocious Curse: now it needs a buff since multiples being applied sort of cut the value of a faster time down. plus this lets the curse focus more on single targets/small groups. 30% healing debuff for 4 second to anyone damaged by the curse( will not stack with any other healing debuffs)

Bound Armor: set armor value to current Value for Bound Aegis, reduces max magicka 5%

Bound Aegis: increase healing received 20%

Bound Armaments: Weapon damage increased by 10%

Conjured Ward: decrease cost (nobody is really benefiting heavily from throwing it on a pet, so that cost is sort of pointless)

I don't like pets, so I don't really like the pet passives.

Just my 2 cents, values are more of a first draft. could be higher could be lower. I have many other variations I've come up with, like switching daedric curse and rune prison. also still no real group support except the changes to negate.

Dymence

zaria wrote: »

Arioco396 wrote: »

because the sorcerer now is ok...the best rank in pvp is a sorcerer...
repeat stop cry
dont broke the game...
in craglon all search sorcerers dps....what do you want inmortality?
LEARN TO PLAY

Can you please inform me how i get close to 1k dps against bosses?
Two requirement, an magic build and no very rare armor sets.
Why a magic build? Simply because its the archtype build for sorcerer, if I wanted to use an bow I would rolled a nightblade.

3 Aether, 4 Twilights embrace, 3 wrath of the imperium (staff&rings). Spell dmg enchant on necklace, weapon damage enchants on both rings - all purple.

Standard crushing shock build.

Bar 1: 1. Crushing shock. 2. Elemental drain. 3. Critical surge. 4. Spell symmetry. 5. Inner light.

Bar 2: 1. Endless fury. 2. Elemental ring. 3. Evil hunter. 4. Spell symmetry. 5. Inner light.

With this I can pull 1k+ sustained on bosses.

Don't tell me aether is rare. It's not.

Black_Wolf88

Dymence wrote: »

Don't tell me aether is rare. It's not.

if its not rare, then it CAN be hard to get.
I have done about 15-20 archives and so far 0 pieces of aether. poor luck in the rng game on my part, however, some have better luck than others.

Arioco396

the best a sorcerer....
https://imageshack.com/i/exyngIdqp

my DK is The Neuromancer, rank 33 ( ebon. )playing alone, no so bad..

Elvinfire

Elvinfire wrote: »

Ever notice all the sorcerers standing around the wayshrine in Craglorn? No one wants or needs them. I get kicked from many groups I've been in, as soon as one 'elite' dies, where I instantly become an [snip], as if it were an in-game skill set . I've been a Breton Sorcerer since the beginning, and have watched the class get nerfed into oblivion (hmmm). ---- WALKSAWAY WIPINGTEARS

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Sorry, i forgot this was a child's game

NordJitsu

Arioco396 wrote: »

the best a sorcerer....
https://imageshack.com/i/exyngIdqp

my DK is The Neuromancer, rank 33 ( ebon. )playing alone, no so bad..

You do realize that the leaderboards in this game have absolutely nothing to do with skill right?

At best, they're a reflection of who plays the most.

At worst, they're a reflection of who's best at gaming the system.

Arioco396

I correct only:

You got me curious so I checked the Leader boards
Top overall - DK
Top AD - Templar
Top DC - DK
Top EB - Templar
Top Trial - Out of the 12 person raid only 1 was a Sorcerer
Top Arena - Top team contained zero Sorcerers

NordJitsu

Arioco396 wrote: »

I correct only:

You got me curious so I checked the Leader boards
Top overall - DK
Top AD - Templar
Top DC - DK
Top EB - Templar
Top Trial - Out of the 12 person raid only 1 was a Sorcerer
Top Arena - Top team contained zero Sorcerers

The Arena and Trial boards tell you a lot more than the PvP board.

DeLindsay

Sorc love in 1.6 = Pets

Gyudan

It's gonna be fun to test on the PTS at least.
I hope that the AoE damage resistance applies properly to the instakill AoE in Sanctum Ophidia (Mantikora stomp, pink orbs, poison) and the fire/poison/frost damage in Dragonstar Arena.
Do pets even get targeted by mana burn again the Serpent?