Fixing Sorceres in 1.6

NordJitsu

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Dymence

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

NordJitsu

I don't know about making it a dot but lifting the target limit makes a lot of sense.

Teargrants

Agree, there's a reason I never slot curse anymore. What's the point when another sorc is just gonna negate my dps with their own curse.

Hypertionb14_ESO

the stun idea for lightning splash, that would actually be one of the best things you could do for that skill.. Damage wise, its actually kind of OP atm.

for the pets, i think both a damage bonus and most importantly, AI improvements to have them be smart enough to get out of red AOE indicators would be best. (AOE resistance would be a nice but REALLY cheap way to buff them, and would have balance issues in PVP)

Curse is tricky.. in its current form, its able to be a 100-200dps DOT in its base and 300-450 in the speed morph... the inability to stack between sorcs tho is a problem. and the speed morph has the added drawback of being too short to be used as a actual DOT, as it has to be reapplied too often.

I have figured 3 ways to change it, Having it apply both a DOT and a After explosion, making it a spell version of rapid strikes, or making it a trigger bomb that explodes when the target next takes damage.. or making it a Curse bomb that has a chance to cause the explosion on all damage as long as the curse is in effect..

Rune Prison, simply needs the cast time removed or the target limit removed... the base effect is insane as it is.. The DK version already is a "damage allowed" version, and the NB just needs to be remade into a straight stun.. a instant, long lasting Disorent (Plus stun when disorent ends if you are smart with morphs) or the ability to keep several mobs out for long duration is the ideal for this as it keeps each class different but still has the skills useful

Teargrants

No it wouldn't, negate bubbles will prevent ground effects like lightning splash from casting. Impulse on the other hand keeps working and is mobile. As such it will always be favored by stacked raids.

NordJitsu

I think a one second stun would be plenty. In PVE you can kind of just clump the mobs up with a cc like encase or talons.

In PVP it is basically useless. A 1 second stun would enable some initial damage to land, and give you the opportunity to use a cc to keep them in there.

xKyrio

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

Dazin93

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

Dazin93

To the OP and others, I think you have some good suggestions regarding specific skills. I would also suggest the following:

Both morphs of surge should be similar to crit surge but with one buffing spell power and the other weapon power. This will be necessary for both stamina builds and magicka builds if 1.6 changes what has been indicated so far. Additionally, surge should have some type of a modifier that will bypass a certain amount of crit resistance thereby making it a more reliable heal and improving the overall dps for the class. Finally, the magicka cost should be decreased or the duration increased.

Dark exchange should have a stamina equivalent so you can trade magicka for health and stamina.

Hardened ward should scale from whichever pool is the largest; magicka or stamina.

Encase should be an aoe instead of a cone based attack and the magicka cost should be reduced.

Blood magic passive also needs a boost.

Mines take too long to set and the magicka cost is atrocious.

Overload is a cool idea but fails as the best part of it (having a third skill bar) is mostly useless as most sorc skills aren't worth slotting. Additionally, an ultimate should never be reflectable.

Teargrants

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

1 - Sorc no can crit in Cyrodiil, all squishy meat people wear impen.
2 - Crushy Shock no is sorc skill.
3 - DK flappy flap [snip]block all Crushy Shock.
4 - Ball of Light [snip]block all Crushy Shock.

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Rude and Insulting comments]

NordJitsu

I don't think Crit Surge should bypass Impenetrable. That would be a bit unfair imo and take away the reason for using Impen at all.

Instead I think Impenetrable should reduce Critical Strike Damage rather than Critical Strike Chance. So you'd still crit, it just wouldn't hurt very much.

That would mean they still get the defensive benefit without removing all of the Sorcs healing.

Leon119

what the sorc needs is a dot skill, and maybe a damaging ultimate similar to standard or veil.
NBs: crippling grasp
DKs: unstable & engulfing flames
temps: vampire bane

only reason templar doesnt outDPS a sorc is cuz templar doesnt have a weapon/spell buff skill like sorcs...

also they need to rework surge a bit to work with the staff changes ( maybe give both weapon and spell dmg or an overall % dmg increase )

Dont rly PVP much so cant say anything about that

Moonshadow66

Teargrants wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

1 - Sorc no can crit in Cyrodiil, all squishy meat people wear impen.
2 - Crushy Shock no is sorc skill.
3 - DK flappy flap[snip]block all Crushy Shock.
4 - Ball of Light [snip]block all Crushy Shock.

Wait, these are words?

[Moderator Note: Edited quote to match moderated version]

GreyBrow

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

Actually, 1k DPS is LAST.

Templar's can do 1.2k stamina DPS now. Basically any class with stamina DPS can hit 1.2k by just sniping the whole fight.

The ridiculous thing is that the sorcerer is the only class that is SUPPOSED to be a caster... yet it is the weakest (by FAR) caster in the game.

Lmao.

Elvinfire

Ever notice all the sorcerers standing around the wayshrine in Craglorn? No one wants or needs them. I get kicked from many groups I've been in, as soon as one 'elite' dies, where I instantly become an [snip], as if it were an in-game skill set . I've been a Breton Sorcerer since the beginning, and have watched the class get nerfed into oblivion (hmmm). ---- WALKSAWAY WIPINGTEARS

[Moderator Note: Edited per our rules on Cursing & Profanity]

Gorthax

^ this man right here needs a medal as he nailed the issue with sorcs! Sorcs are lack luster in every way shape and form as a CASTER. Melee they do fine, but I dont play melee. I play caster. I am a magick user through and through and will NEVER turn to melee. Not even when DK's say "dont like RS then use sword and shield" ummm no, not gonna happen.

Buff sorcs! Make our skills useful in pvp and not the "aww look cousin timmy came out to play. No one attack timmy he thinks he is helping his team. Timmy is such a good boy."

c0rp

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don't think Crit Surge should bypass Impenetrable. That would be a bit unfair imo and take away the reason for using Impen at all.

Instead I think Impenetrable should reduce Critical Strike Damage rather than Critical Strike Chance. So you'd still crit, it just wouldn't hurt very much.

That would mean they still get the defensive benefit without removing all of the Sorcs healing.

Ive been saying this for....Idk...8 months now..

Impen makes entire builds worthless AND completely removes the viability of a class defining skill. ZoS should be embarrassed they have let this go for so long.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @zos_PaulSage @zos_MattFiror @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

Shunravi

c0rp wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don't think Crit Surge should bypass Impenetrable. That would be a bit unfair imo and take away the reason for using Impen at all.

Instead I think Impenetrable should reduce Critical Strike Damage rather than Critical Strike Chance. So you'd still crit, it just wouldn't hurt very much.

That would mean they still get the defensive benefit without removing all of the Sorcs healing.

Ive been saying this for....Idk...8 months now..

Impen makes entire builds worthless AND completely removes the viability of a class defining skill. ZoS should be embarrassed they have let this go for so long.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @zos_PaulSage @zos_MattFiror @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

The first time I saw this armor;



It got me so mad. It's downright insulting to sorcs. And quite frankly, it's like they are parading their terrible design choices as if they are proud.

RinaldoGandolphi

If Sorcs are able to heal in pvp like they can in pve they will be OP as all can be...i can faceroll mobs in pve using crit surge with no chance or threat of dying at all.

in a PVP environment, where your not fighting a Trail Boss with 90,000 HP, but other players with 3k-3.5k health, who don't hit anywhere near as hard as those bosses do, Crit Surge and nerfing Impentrable will have Sorcs almost God like, they would be worse then DK folks complain about now.

Crits should be counterable, thats why i like Impentrable as it is right now(and im a Sorc) Crit Surge was never really meant to be a heal that could be relied on...its based on Crit Chance which is a roll of the RNG without Impentrable...

Thats why the Sorc had Bolt Escape prior to the nerf...the classes needed pre-nerf Bolt Escape to make up for the lack of a class heal like the other classes have...our survivability was based on mobility, not self healing.Sadly with the current BE nerf thats not the case.

if they nerf Impentrable and allow Crit surge to work in PVP the way it does in PVE, they will completely break PVP all together, its so easy for Sorcs to get Crit chance.

10% from LA
20% from Inner light
10-12% from Precise Weapon
Thief Mundas Stone
1 piece Divines Trait armor to buff Theif Mundas even more
PVP home campaign buffs

its easy to get a 55-60% spell crit chance...with potions oh boy....they can't nerf Impentrable...Sorcs will be near impossible to kill if you do, and folks think DK are bad....

DeLindsay

NordJitsu wrote: »

Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

I hope they don't. The other 3 Classes will have to stack Spell Damage for the FOTM Crushing Shock build once the change happens, why should Sorcs be any different (PvE content). And to someone else's comment above saying sorcs were designed as the only Caster Class your wrong. ZoS designed Sorcs to be 2H wielding monsters, which they are, and Crit Surge goes hand in hand with that since they are in melee taking more damage than ranged. Maybe Sorcs should be running Deltia's 2H build with 90%+ Crit up with only a 1 second DT (pot chugging) doing 1200+ DPS while self healing for an insane amount.

Aeratus

GreyBrow wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

Actually, 1k DPS is LAST.

Templar's can do 1.2k stamina DPS now. Basically any class with stamina DPS can hit 1.2k by just sniping the whole fight.

The ridiculous thing is that the sorcerer is the only class that is SUPPOSED to be a caster... yet it is the weakest (by FAR) caster in the game.

Lmao.

Templar caster is weaker than sorc.

Sorcs aren't "supposed" to be casters. Any class can use any weapon.

xKyrio

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

So baseicly another pvp QQ thread, crying about not being good in pvp.... as always.
I think most people forgett pvp is about acctual skills, dodgeing, blocking etc, not the skills you use.

Dazin93

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don't think Crit Surge should bypass Impenetrable. That would be a bit unfair imo and take away the reason for using Impen at all.

Instead I think Impenetrable should reduce Critical Strike Damage rather than Critical Strike Chance. So you'd still crit, it just wouldn't hurt very much.

That would mean they still get the defensive benefit without removing all of the Sorcs healing.

The problem with reducing critical strike damage is that you are also basically reducing stealth attack damage for all classes as everyone relies on that first big hit for damage burst.

I don't think crit surge should completely bypass impenetrable, but as I said they could put a modifier for it to ignore a set value. This would improve the skill for sorcs without it becoming op, and also wouldn't effect the value of impenetrable for anyone else or have everyone running to create pure crit builds due to an impenetrable nerf.

Dazin93

xKyrio wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

So baseicly another pvp QQ thread, crying about not being good in pvp.... as always.
I think most people forgett pvp is about acctual skills, dodgeing, blocking etc, not the skills you use.

This actually is an intellectual discussion about the issues and lack of viability that the sorc has right now in pve and pvp compared to the other classes, but obviously it's beyond your comprehension or knowledge level. Please QQ elsewhere.

Jahosefat

DeLindsay wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

I hope they don't. The other 3 Classes will have to stack Spell Damage for the FOTM Crushing Shock build once the change happens, why should Sorcs be any different (PvE content). And to someone else's comment above saying sorcs were designed as the only Caster Class your wrong. ZoS designed Sorcs to be 2H wielding monsters, which they are, and Crit Surge goes hand in hand with that since they are in melee taking more damage than ranged. Maybe Sorcs should be running Deltia's 2H build with 90%+ Crit up with only a 1 second DT (pot chugging) doing 1200+ DPS while self healing for an insane amount.

LOL one problem with your awesome strat there: block. No crit, no heal, dead 2h sorc. But you are right, its great for ganking inexperienced players who don't block. Unfortunately (for the applicability of your strat) there are lots of ways to kill inexperienced players, which is not really the sorc discussion at hand.

[EDIT]: Which brings up a good point, even if they do make changes to impen blocking will still counter crit surge. So I think the reliability would be approximately the same as it is now once everyone learned they could starve a sorc of heals by blocking.

DeLindsay

Jahosefat wrote: »

LOL one problem with your awesome strat there: block. No crit, no heal, dead 2h sorc. But you are right, its great for ganking inexperienced players who don't block. Unfortunately (for the applicability of your strat) there are lots of ways to kill inexperienced players, which is not really the sorc discussion at hand.

You might notice where I specifically said I was talking about PvE content.

zaria

An crit of 60% result in you doing 30% more damage against target with no protection.

xKyrio wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

So baseicly another pvp QQ thread, crying about not being good in pvp.... as always.
I think most people forgett pvp is about acctual skills, dodgeing, blocking etc, not the skills you use.

Main problem is poor DPS on bosses, templars are no better but is the best healers, currently people start believing nothing than templars can heal.

Jahosefat

xKyrio wrote: »

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

You said a good build can put out 1k dps and you are right. 1k dps is exactly third in dps as the OP stated because DK and nb can do far better.

Finally, one skill no matter how good, doesn't make an entire class. Negate is great for group pvp and average for most solo play and solo pvp, which is to say very situational. It's also expensive and can be wiped out in seconds by another sorc or can be easily avoided.
The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

So baseicly another pvp QQ thread, crying about not being good in pvp.... as always.
I think most people forgett pvp is about acctual skills, dodgeing, blocking etc, not the skills you use.

Only to a point. Skills are how you kill people, so of course they matter.

Jahosefat

DeLindsay wrote: »

Jahosefat wrote: »

LOL one problem with your awesome strat there: block. No crit, no heal, dead 2h sorc. But you are right, its great for ganking inexperienced players who don't block. Unfortunately (for the applicability of your strat) there are lots of ways to kill inexperienced players, which is not really the sorc discussion at hand.

You might notice where I specifically said I was talking about PvE content.

lol I did miss that. My point still stands that the crit surge mechanics don't work well in PVP for any weapon, even the "always" critting critical charge. And if changes were made to impentrable where crit chance was not reduced, only crit damage, critical surge will still be countered by blocking.

Also for PVE (I don't do much of this) I was under the impression crushing shock was still more DPS than 2h because you don't have to run out of boss AOE's so much. If you can just stand and beat on the boss maybe, but it still does not compare to the DPS put out by NB and DK.

DeLindsay

Agreed and Sorcs/Templar certainly need some love, I just don't think adding Spell Damage to Crit Surge is the answer. That's not going to increase their DPS once the change to Staff scaling happens.