Fixing Sorceres in 1.6

rophez_ESO

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

DeLindsay

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

^ This.

Merlin13KAGL

Dymence wrote: »

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

@Dymence

Current damage is okay. Not great, but ok.

One curse active at a time is ok...per target. It's a curse. No reason why it should not be able to be applied to multiple targets, with another cast (yours, or someone else's) overwriting.

One curse active period, ridiculous.

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

@Dazin93‌

Crit Surge is not consistent, PVE also, as I assume it only registers the damage and the heals periodically, not as they happen. One timing hiccup with this (whether user related or latency) and it's not hard to end up dying when you know you're dishing out the damage.

The other Ult's do have there place, situationally.

Dazin93 wrote: »

Blood magic passive also needs a boost.

Mines take too long to set and the magicka cost is atrocious.

Overload is a cool idea but fails as the best part of it (having a third skill bar) is mostly useless as most sorc skills aren't worth slotting. Additionally, an ultimate should never be reflectable.

Blood magic isn't bad, but it should be a per-target thing, not a per cast. Encase 6 people, there's a 30% heal. Granted, it may actually need to be adjusted down, or be given a cooldown for same target re-cast, but it would be more effective this way.

Also, less of the "this target too powerful for any effect" nonsense.

Reduced effect, fine. No effect, not unless you're Trials boss or a Major Storm Atronach, or a Daedric Prince.

Mines actually give the best damage/magicka (not DPS/magicka) of any skill out there is something triggers all 5, it's second only to Crystal Frags. (Again, damage/cost, not DPS/cost ~ put the pitchforks down.)

Ult's not reflectable, gotta disagree if they're projectiles (Light Overload), but infinitely reflectable, no. Reflect one, get diminishing returns on mitigating those that follow, or have it suck the stamina right out of you vice the health.

DeLindsay wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

I hope they don't. The other 3 Classes will have to stack Spell Damage for the FOTM Crushing Shock build once the change happens, why should Sorcs be any different (PvE content). And to someone else's comment above saying sorcs were designed as the only Caster Class your wrong. ZoS designed Sorcs to be 2H wielding monsters, which they are, and Crit Surge goes hand in hand with that since they are in melee taking more damage than ranged. Maybe Sorcs should be running Deltia's 2H build with 90%+ Crit up with only a 1 second DT (pot chugging) doing 1200+ DPS while self healing for an insane amount.

@Delindsay , agree and disagree.

Sorc's should be casters, first and foremost.

The fact that CS is the end-all-be-all combination that puts out the most damage in many build screams imbalance.

As a Sorc, the weapon should be secondary. Your damage should come from the raw arcane energy you weave and shape into the form that it ultimately takes.

Beyond that, @NordJitsu and all others, here's my 3g:

Negate should have no cap. If you're in it, you're in it.

Encase should return multiple blood magic benefits if you are hitting multiple targets. 100% resistance should be rare, at best, and limited at most.

Cut the time effect in half, the snare in half...not effect at all makes the spell useless in certain fights.

Rune Prison, Curse, Mines, and Rune (MG) should not be single cast. If you have the resources for it, cast away.

None of these specify there can only be one active at a time (Curse being the exception, see above).

• Curse: One active at a time, regardless who casts. Again, this is fine, but should be one active per target. Anyone casts over it, fine. No reason why it should be one only, period.
• Rune Prison: Should be able to cast on multiple targets without overwriting your last cast (assuming timing hasn't run out.) Sometimes it works this way, sometimes it doesn't. Single target period version, again worthless. (A one person crowd, does not a crowd make.) (And for PvP, no CC break - you're stunned - you know, like I am when a NB sneak attacks me.)
• Mines: 'spensive, yes. Effective? If it wasn't so 'spensive and could be laid down multiple times if you have the resources for it, absolutely.
• Volc Rune: same deal. Got the magicka for it, drop as many as you like.

Next, remove Pets from the Sorc line.

Add familiars to the Sorc line. Real casters don't summon pets.

(Ahem...)

On that note, make the familiars scale with you. Twilight, you know, the one that's higher on the casting tree has half the HP as the volatile/clanfear...

Make toggles toggles. You spent the substantial resources to cast it, it already sucks away 5%-10% of your magicka pool. Until it dies or you cast again (to dissipate), it should stay there. No more of this two slot bs.

Add a healing line, complete with (proper) burst heals. Doesn't have to be the divine line that the templars have, and it shouldn't be. But, it shouldn't rely on a weapon and it should be stronger than the relies-on-a-weapon variety currently is.

On that note, ("Sorcs shouldn't get a fourth skill line, no on else does.")

1. Yes they should.
2. So should everyone else.
3. Give everyone access to four class skill lines....(wait for it), allow them to pick only three.

Make Surge affect spell damage, or give it the morph option to affect one vs the other.

Make innately magic weapons (cough...staves) base off spell damage.

Give innately magic weapons (translated otherwise useless as melee, translated again staves, translated a third time as big stick) some melee options.

(Put a broomstick in my hands, betcha I can do more than just bash with it.)

Remove the heavy reliance on the weapon type (period) for damage... (See crushing shock reliance above)

With that, allow us to specialize in an element. Any element should be able to have stun/knockback/disorient capabilities. Any element should be able to have increased chance of crit/effect/resource return, whatever...

...if you specialize in it.

Every element should have its counter element. Resistance to one should make you weaker to the other, by default. Dunmer should get cold spells (no magic pun intended.). Nord should get hot flashes. Vamps should get increased cold resistance.

Right now, Fire gets the knockback. Fire gets the increased Crit chance. Fire gets the 10% higher damage on heavy attack.

Fire, fire, fire. There should be Cyromancers, Stormcallers, you name it.

It should take more than a quick look and a roll of the dice to know what someone is likely dishing out.

We're casters... Let us cast.

Ok...now break out your torches, your pitchforks, or your freshly baked pies (to eat, not throw...) as you see fit.

EDIT: One last thing with Rune Prison, it shouldn't break so easily.

Right now if you speak the the enemy harshly, it dissipates.

Merlin13KAGL

Edit Edit: Weakness to Elements still causes Aggro about 50% or better of the time.

Did they ever reinstate the Stun from Volatile? (The overly dramatic death sequence should be reason enough to justify the stun...) *Gasp*

Derra

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

OrangeTheCat

Shunravi wrote: »

c0rp wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

I don't think Crit Surge should bypass Impenetrable. That would be a bit unfair imo and take away the reason for using Impen at all.

Instead I think Impenetrable should reduce Critical Strike Damage rather than Critical Strike Chance. So you'd still crit, it just wouldn't hurt very much.

That would mean they still get the defensive benefit without removing all of the Sorcs healing.

Ive been saying this for....Idk...8 months now..

Impen makes entire builds worthless AND completely removes the viability of a class defining skill. ZoS should be embarrassed they have let this go for so long.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ @zos_PaulSage @zos_MattFiror @ZOS_BrianWheeler‌

The first time I saw this armor;



It got me so mad. It's downright insulting to sorcs. And quite frankly, it's like they are parading their terrible design choices as if they are proud.

NBs can make the same claim. It is sad

NordJitsu

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

I'm definitely not saying it should be Spell Damage only.

Make it both or give us a morph option to pick one or the other.

rophez_ESO

Derra wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

Lots and lots of ways to get perma blockers to let go of that button, but you're right, sometimes I run up against someone that just wants to sit there and turtle. I just leave them there.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't want sorcs to have another option to heal, or for impenetrable to work differently; I was just pointing out one way that you can get a pretty consistent heal off with crit surge. If you are in a a melee with multiple enemies, it's pretty easy to spot someone without a block up and hit that charge to get your heal.

Jahosefat

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

Lots and lots of ways to get perma blockers to let go of that button, but you're right, sometimes I run up against someone that just wants to sit there and turtle. I just leave them there.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't want sorcs to have another option to heal, or for impenetrable to work differently; I was just pointing out one way that you can get a pretty consistent heal off with crit surge. If you are in a a melee with multiple enemies, it's pretty easy to spot someone without a block up and hit that charge to get your heal.

I think you are giving this way to much credit in PVP. Yes, spamming it into a crowd will result in a heal a lot of the time, but small group (or a large group that knows what you are doing) it fails miserably in my experience compared to mag sorc builds where resto skills/ward/streak can be spammed much more.

Not only can it be countered by blocking, but if the opponent (ie mag sorc) has a shield up and keeps it up, no heals will flow and death soon follows.

rophez_ESO

Jahosefat wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

rophez_ESO wrote: »

My orc sorc wearing medium and stacking buffs/sets to hit 290+ weapon damage would prefer they not make crit surge spell damage only. Also, it works pretty nicely with crit charge (2 handed ability) to provide a consistent heal. Just saying.

You can´t crit on block or on shields. That + Impen and i garantee you never crit a competent player in pvp with your notsocritical-charge.
So no heals for you

Lots and lots of ways to get perma blockers to let go of that button, but you're right, sometimes I run up against someone that just wants to sit there and turtle. I just leave them there.

Anyway, I'm not saying I don't want sorcs to have another option to heal, or for impenetrable to work differently; I was just pointing out one way that you can get a pretty consistent heal off with crit surge. If you are in a a melee with multiple enemies, it's pretty easy to spot someone without a block up and hit that charge to get your heal.

I think you are giving this way to much credit in PVP. Yes, spamming it into a crowd will result in a heal a lot of the time, but small group (or a large group that knows what you are doing) it fails miserably in my experience compared to mag sorc builds where resto skills/ward/streak can be spammed much more.

Not only can it be countered by blocking, but if the opponent (ie mag sorc) has a shield up and keeps it up, no heals will flow and death soon follows.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, brother. I'm not trying to proclaim this sort of ability is the be all, end all. I just pointed out an option. It's best used on a medium armor, stealthy skirmisher who picks the fights he wants to be in. That's where I have success. I absolutely agree that it has it's limits, and there are other builds that are more suited to open combat. I play a vampire orc that drops bombs on enemies that are unsuspecting, already engaged, or retreating. He's kind of a glass cannon, but he can roll dodge like a mother, streak, and crit charge around a battle field, often getting far enough away or under enough cover to get back into sneak. It's fun, but it's niche gameplay.

I play my DK for more open, in your face kind of combat (I've got a siphon NB up and coming too, for a different breed of fun.)

Cheers!

Gorthax

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

@Dymence

Current damage is okay. Not great, but ok.

One curse active at a time is ok...per target. It's a curse. No reason why it should not be able to be applied to multiple targets, with another cast (yours, or someone else's) overwriting.

One curse active period, ridiculous.

Dazin93 wrote: »

xKyrio wrote: »

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

First, you obviously don't pvp much or you would know crit surge is extremely unreliable as a heal when fighting others players as most of them stack impenetrable on their armor. Moral of the story, think before you try to call other players out.

The other two class ultimates quite frankly aren't worth slotting if you are serious about your dps or serious about supporting your group.

@Dazin93‌

Crit Surge is not consistent, PVE also, as I assume it only registers the damage and the heals periodically, not as they happen. One timing hiccup with this (whether user related or latency) and it's not hard to end up dying when you know you're dishing out the damage.

The other Ult's do have there place, situationally.

Dazin93 wrote: »

Blood magic passive also needs a boost.

Mines take too long to set and the magicka cost is atrocious.

Overload is a cool idea but fails as the best part of it (having a third skill bar) is mostly useless as most sorc skills aren't worth slotting. Additionally, an ultimate should never be reflectable.

Blood magic isn't bad, but it should be a per-target thing, not a per cast. Encase 6 people, there's a 30% heal. Granted, it may actually need to be adjusted down, or be given a cooldown for same target re-cast, but it would be more effective this way.

Also, less of the "this target too powerful for any effect" nonsense.

Reduced effect, fine. No effect, not unless you're Trials boss or a Major Storm Atronach, or a Daedric Prince.

Mines actually give the best damage/magicka (not DPS/magicka) of any skill out there is something triggers all 5, it's second only to Crystal Frags. (Again, damage/cost, not DPS/cost ~ put the pitchforks down.)

Ult's not reflectable, gotta disagree if they're projectiles (Light Overload), but infinitely reflectable, no. Reflect one, get diminishing returns on mitigating those that follow, or have it suck the stamina right out of you vice the health.

DeLindsay wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

I hope they don't. The other 3 Classes will have to stack Spell Damage for the FOTM Crushing Shock build once the change happens, why should Sorcs be any different (PvE content). And to someone else's comment above saying sorcs were designed as the only Caster Class your wrong. ZoS designed Sorcs to be 2H wielding monsters, which they are, and Crit Surge goes hand in hand with that since they are in melee taking more damage than ranged. Maybe Sorcs should be running Deltia's 2H build with 90%+ Crit up with only a 1 second DT (pot chugging) doing 1200+ DPS while self healing for an insane amount.

@Delindsay , agree and disagree.

Sorc's should be casters, first and foremost.

The fact that CS is the end-all-be-all combination that puts out the most damage in many build screams imbalance.

As a Sorc, the weapon should be secondary. Your damage should come from the raw arcane energy you weave and shape into the form that it ultimately takes.

Beyond that, @NordJitsu and all others, here's my 3g:

Negate should have no cap. If you're in it, you're in it.

Encase should return multiple blood magic benefits if you are hitting multiple targets. 100% resistance should be rare, at best, and limited at most.

Cut the time effect in half, the snare in half...not effect at all makes the spell useless in certain fights.

Rune Prison, Curse, Mines, and Rune (MG) should not be single cast. If you have the resources for it, cast away.

None of these specify there can only be one active at a time (Curse being the exception, see above).

• Curse: One active at a time, regardless who casts. Again, this is fine, but should be one active per target. Anyone casts over it, fine. No reason why it should be one only, period.
• Rune Prison: Should be able to cast on multiple targets without overwriting your last cast (assuming timing hasn't run out.) Sometimes it works this way, sometimes it doesn't. Single target period version, again worthless. (A one person crowd, does not a crowd make.) (And for PvP, no CC break - you're stunned - you know, like I am when a NB sneak attacks me.)
• Mines: 'spensive, yes. Effective? If it wasn't so 'spensive and could be laid down multiple times if you have the resources for it, absolutely.
• Volc Rune: same deal. Got the magicka for it, drop as many as you like.

Next, remove Pets from the Sorc line.

Add familiars to the Sorc line. Real casters don't summon pets.

(Ahem...)

On that note, make the familiars scale with you. Twilight, you know, the one that's higher on the casting tree has half the HP as the volatile/clanfear...

Make toggles toggles. You spent the substantial resources to cast it, it already sucks away 5%-10% of your magicka pool. Until it dies or you cast again (to dissipate), it should stay there. No more of this two slot bs.

Add a healing line, complete with (proper) burst heals. Doesn't have to be the divine line that the templars have, and it shouldn't be. But, it shouldn't rely on a weapon and it should be stronger than the relies-on-a-weapon variety currently is.

On that note, ("Sorcs shouldn't get a fourth skill line, no on else does.")

1. Yes they should.
2. So should everyone else.
3. Give everyone access to four class skill lines....(wait for it), allow them to pick only three.

Make Surge affect spell damage, or give it the morph option to affect one vs the other.

Make innately magic weapons (cough...staves) base off spell damage.

Give innately magic weapons (translated otherwise useless as melee, translated again staves, translated a third time as big stick) some melee options.

(Put a broomstick in my hands, betcha I can do more than just bash with it.)

Remove the heavy reliance on the weapon type (period) for damage... (See crushing shock reliance above)

With that, allow us to specialize in an element. Any element should be able to have stun/knockback/disorient capabilities. Any element should be able to have increased chance of crit/effect/resource return, whatever...

...if you specialize in it.

Every element should have its counter element. Resistance to one should make you weaker to the other, by default. Dunmer should get cold spells (no magic pun intended.). Nord should get hot flashes. Vamps should get increased cold resistance.

Right now, Fire gets the knockback. Fire gets the increased Crit chance. Fire gets the 10% higher damage on heavy attack.

Fire, fire, fire. There should be Cyromancers, Stormcallers, you name it.

It should take more than a quick look and a roll of the dice to know what someone is likely dishing out.

We're casters... Let us cast.

Ok...now break out your torches, your pitchforks, or your freshly baked pies (to eat, not throw...) as you see fit.

EDIT: One last thing with Rune Prison, it shouldn't break so easily.

Right now if you speak the the enemy harshly, it dissipates.

this man knows exactly why sorcs are laughable UNLESS using melee! Kudos to you my good sir, kudos to you!

Dracane

Nice that you have mentioned rune prison and lighnting splash. I think, they should completely remove them and replace with MEANINGFULL skills, that give the Sorcerer better options.

The biggest problem is, that Sorc DPS is so sad and non existing. Everything is based on percentages or timers and this is so stupid. The only good thing is, that EVERY Sorcerer skill (Crystal shard is an excpetion) ignores blocks. And pets definately need a buff and I would find it nice, if their attacks were blockable, so that they can drain Stamina.

And I hate it to be forced to use a restoration staff for self healing. Dark Exchange and Critical Surge will never become a good self heal option in PvP. I could continue the list until eternity

DeLindsay

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Delindsay , agree and disagree.

Sorc's should be casters, first and foremost.

The fact that CS is the end-all-be-all combination that puts out the most damage in many build screams imbalance.

As a Sorc, the weapon should be secondary. Your damage should come from the raw arcane energy you weave and shape into the form that it ultimately takes.

Oh I'm not making the argument that Sorcs should or shouldn't be a "Caster" type Class just pointing out ZoS's original design FOR Sorcs was around 2H. I'm all for Sorcs getting a decent DoT like some have mentioned, and an good utility Ultimate besides Negate, and fixes to the Pets, etc. I think many are making too much of what 1.6 might be bringing to Class rebalances. But this happens in EVERY MMO, for EVERY major patch. Everyone screams that the game is ending and all the Classes will be worthless, etc, and then said patch comes out and it's actually not too bad after all.

Sorcs and Templars need some love, NB's still need abilities fixed, and either all 3 need to be brought up to DK's level or DK still needs a little more, dare I say it, nerf to become inline with the other 3 Classes.

Dymence

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

@Dymence

Current damage is okay. Not great, but ok.

One curse active at a time is ok...per target. It's a curse. No reason why it should not be able to be applied to multiple targets, with another cast (yours, or someone else's) overwriting.

One curse active period, ridiculous.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Lore and logic should never impair how a game functions and feels for players. If you play endgame content, you will never ever use this spell as long as it's limited to one curse being active per target. And that's just bad game design, in my opinion.

brandon.2023b14_ESO

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials or DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it ends, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they won it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dpsing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still to op with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

xaraan

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

NordJitsu

brandon.2023b14_ESO wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

So I know 1.6 is going to bring a lot balance changes, and this is very preemptive, but I thought we could get a discussion going about ideas on how to fix Sorcerers with the hope that ZOS may be able to consider our ideas going forward.

It seems to be almost universally acknowledged now that Sorcs are the weakest class, both in PvP and PvE. People say the only reason people bring Sorcs for Trials is for Negate Magic, since they get out DPS'ed by NBs and DKs and Templars are better healers. PvP is pretty much the same and it takes more skill to be good as a Sorc than any other class.

Now, my experiences are clearly subjective and my ideas are just that, my ideas.

So I'd really like to get a discussion going here and see what other people think the problems the Sorcerer has are.

First, a quick recap of the significant changes that have been made to Sorcerer since launch:


-decreased AoE cap on Streak.

-Removed Taunt from Storm Atronoch.

-Made Familiar get affected by Fighters Guild abilities.

-Added AoE cap to Negate Magic

-Increased damage on Crystal Blast (presumably to encourage someone to actually use this morph.)

-Removed armor/spell-resistances bonuses to Dark Deal but made it mobile.

-Made pets semi-functional (they can sneak, you can give them targets)

-Increased cost and light attack damage for Overload.

-Bolt Escape now costs 50% more if cast within 4 secs of a previous cast (actually more like ~75% due to the way it's calculate.)

-Bolt Escape cannot be used while carrying a scroll.

-Bolt Escape cuts magicka regeneration in half for 4 seconds after use.

Diagnosis

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

Suggestions

Bolt Escape: It would be great to see this skill restored in some way. Mobility is integral to this class and I actually think it was cool and fun that it's survivability was based on escaping rather than healing (class differentiation is good.) I can't see ZOS fully restoring it because the QQ was so strong before (though it seems with the buffs the NB and stamina people find it much easier to counter). At least I'd like to see the subsequent use penalties removed (since they feel like cool downs and violate the principal of using your skills when you want to.) So no more magicka regen penalty and no more cost increases on subsequent casts. Maybe increase the base cost to compensate but remove the virtual cool downs.

Dark Deal: Making this skill mobile was a nice step. But have you noticed few pick this morph, still? That's because for the increased stamina cost, mobility isn't enough. The armor and spell resistance buffs while channeling should be restored, at lower values than before, but brought back to make this worth picking. I also think all the versions of this skill could use a slight stamina cost reduction.

Pets: Why can't ZOS get this right? Back in beta when they only cost one ability slot their weakness wasn't so egregious. Now that they cost two they're almost worthless outside of solo questing. Since I can't see them reducing the ability back to one slot, they need buffs. The twilight matriarch should heal for more. The volatile familiar needs a slight damage buff to make it useful rather than just funny. The clanfear needs something to make it useful in pvp such as a tail swipe knock back, like the enemy clanfear have in pve. All of the pets need some form of survivability boost, such as greater armor/spell-resist or perhaps just AoE resistance to prevent the from getting eaten up so quickly in dungeons and group PvP. An overall DPS increase couldn't hurt, but an increase in survivability is the most important thing. No matter how hard pets hit, they are going to be useless so long as they die so easily.

Lightning Pool: The damage is fine. What This skill needs are ways to make sure it actually hits. I'd recommend either increasing the radius dramatically or adding a stun on first hit ala spear shards.

Rune prison: what this skill needs is some type of damage allowance so the effect isn't broken accidentally by AOE. Not a very high one, but even 50 points would go a long way.

Bound armor: I am hoping that the changes to armor in 1.6 Will make this skill actually useful. It suffers from the same problem as pets because it requires double the skill slots to be used effectively. Basically it just needs to be worth more, perhaps a greater armor value.


Finally, I hope the changes to Spell Power are going to take into account that Critical Surge + D-staff skills are the only thing currently keeping sorc out of the trash heap. If we lose that synergy, we're in a lot of trouble

Now I haven't done trials is DSA on my sorc, but for 1v1 PvP even 1v2 PvP my sorc using resto staff for healing springs, bound armor, clanfear, twilight matriarch, boundless storm and storm atronach for ult has been a very viable build. Now for large fights in PvP I don't use either of my pet's because it makes me a target. Instead I use encase morphed for explosion when it wnds, and crystal blast i use in large fights because I stay far enough away that I'm not normally the main target and I can knock people on their butt as well as hit a few people at the same time. Although I find it to be more useful in dungeons and delves or starting a solo fight in pve. There isn't a problem with sorcerers, its a problem with people not knowing how to build one. Again, I say this because I haven't done DSA, trials or max lvl PvP. But my sorc at lvl 30 has taken out v1-v4 experienced players in 1v1 duels. Long fights but I came out the victor. When they one it was because they told me on ts to not use certain abilities so they could see if they could kill me after that. Example when I went against them with ward ally and nothing but resto skills and used heavy and light attacks from my staff, I was out dosing their heals with staff alone and kept shield on with healing springs and they couldn't get me below half health. If you know how to build a character for your play style nerfs and buffs aren't needed to any more classes. I thought the Nerf to bat swarm was gonna be the death of my vamp night blade... Its still too with a 30% less healing effect than prior to update 5. Stop asking for nerfs and buffs and learn how to build a character.

"I'm only level 30 and haven't done any high end pvp or pve"

Then should you really be commenting?

xaraan wrote: »

Well, Sorcs need some love, but not always want people think. Just because someone bases their build on crits doesn't mean they need to make it easier for sorcs to crit or get past crit resistance. Just because you like to bolt escape through a hundred people to negate, negate, negate doesn't 'mean they should roll back the changes to bolt escape. Really, most of the changes they've made to sorcs should stay, it's other abilities that need work, not roll backs to what's already been changes.

Sorcs are probably just a bit weaker than nightblades for self heals (weird to hear that I bet, but as someone who has played both extensively, NB heals are very situational and can often be worse). The heals sorcs can get from crit surge, familiar, dark exchange and passive heal for using dark magic gives some good versatility, but if they boosted the familiar to be a bit more useful, it would give them the ability to have an all around heal that isn't dependent on damage.

What's missing from sorcs is a good way to do damage consistently outside of shards, they are the only class that really has to rely on destro staff for main damage source. Not that other classes don't use them plenty, but do a dungeon run and try using just a light attack from a staff and then only sorc powers between and see how much dps you can do. I think making lightning splash more useful would go a long way - upping the AoE perhaps and damage a bit, making it less reliant on the synergy to be useful.

Curse is the other damage dealer that could probably be made a bit more useful so sorcs have another class ability to use for damage besides relying on the staff.

Rune Prison, sure sucks, but it's in the same boat with DKs petrify and NBs cripple. These have to be the least used powers in the game lol and they need to really change things up on them.

I think Stormy could be a bit better, when you compare it to the other main damage dealer ulti's: Veil, Banner and Nova, it's pretty lackluster.

Not sure what you are talking about with "using too many skill slots" - every power takes one slot unless you want it on both bars, then it's your choice to slot it twice, other classes have to do the same for certain powers.

Crit surge is a good power, but hopefully they address the "weapon power" boost when damage gets changed on staves to spell power, but don't leave weapon users hanging either. (A % increase would solve this, or two different morphs).

Sorcs do need a little love, but if this thread is about "change all the nerfs back so we can go back to being one trick ponies in pvp" then you lost me.

Pets and Bound Armor cost two skill slots to be used. You can't place them on just one bar because swapping weapons will de-summon them for no reason.

That wasn't how ZOS originally designed them. One high profile beta tester (who I won't name) decided to make a stink about them and ZOS changed it to two slots. Early on you could freely swap weapons with the pet on only one bar.

This is a pretty absurd change because they already take away a permanent magicka cost while summoned (which was ZOS's plan for a use penalty.) They also simply aren't good enough to warrant double the skill slots as other skills since they're weaker than most things in the game.

The ridiculously high initial magicka cost makes re-summoning every time you swap weapons a non viable play style.

And I'm not in favor of rolling back every nerf. The nerf to bolt escape was simply dumb and bad game making. They were being reactionary to a vocal minority of pretty uninformed players who were crying because they hadn't bothered to learn counters. The nerf went way to far (all four of them) and needs to be partially undone.

The nerf to negate was also ridiculous. It's an area of denial skill. It doesn't do any damage. There is zero reason to cap the effect. But then I think k AoE caps are dumb on any skill, ultimates in particular.

WRX

While I dont agree with everything, this is very well thought out and an excellent post. Tag some ZoS employees to give it a read perhaps.

Vizier

Sorcs the weakest class? What What? The notion is horse pucky.

JaJaLuka

xKyrio wrote: »

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Uhm, i dunno about you but with a sorc, use critical surge for self heals and just keep doing dmg and you are baseicly invinsble...
Well, that is if you know how to play your class.

And with at good build, most commonly know as the dps build, crushing shock, you can put out 1k dps ~~ So the dps isnt all bad.

A good sorc can save alot of fights, or baseicly all big group fights because of Negate.
So the ultimate i kinda op if you ask me, since everything just goes ZZzz in it.

Given that Impenetrable makes critical hits virtually impossible, the heal from critical surge almost never happens.

Merlin13KAGL

DeLindsay wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

@Delindsay , agree and disagree.

Sorc's should be casters, first and foremost.

The fact that CS is the end-all-be-all combination that puts out the most damage in many build screams imbalance.

As a Sorc, the weapon should be secondary. Your damage should come from the raw arcane energy you weave and shape into the form that it ultimately takes.

Oh I'm not making the argument that Sorcs should or shouldn't be a "Caster" type Class just pointing out ZoS's original design FOR Sorcs was around 2H. I'm all for Sorcs getting a decent DoT like some have mentioned, and an good utility Ultimate besides Negate, and fixes to the Pets, etc. I think many are making too much of what 1.6 might be bringing to Class rebalances. But this happens in EVERY MMO, for EVERY major patch. Everyone screams that the game is ending and all the Classes will be worthless, etc, and then said patch comes out and it's actually not too bad after all.

@DeLindsay‌ , I know you aren't. I'm in agreement that so many of the current build rely so heavily on Crushing Shock. Staves should get some melee benefits (the take up two slots) and use magicka as the resource pool. It would make things much more interesting.

I'm hardly saying the sky is falling. I enjoy my Sorc and can adjust skills to various situations. I'm just saying there could be so much more, and not in terms of skills becoming OP, but in how certain people can coordinate their use.

Dymence wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

@Dymence

Current damage is okay. Not great, but ok.

One curse active at a time is ok...per target. It's a curse. No reason why it should not be able to be applied to multiple targets, with another cast (yours, or someone else's) overwriting.

One curse active period, ridiculous.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Lore and logic should never impair how a game functions and feels for players. If you play endgame content, you will never ever use this spell as long as it's limited to one curse being active per target. And that's just bad game design, in my opinion.

@Dymence , please expand on how my statement causes lore and logic to impair function and feeling? (Not arguing, I'm not sure what you mean.)

I do play end game content and curse, even in it's semi-broken form, occasionally has its place.

Also, one per target would still be an improvement over one curse period right now.

Are you ever going to crank out DPS with it? No, but that's also not really what it's built for.

Curse is intended to wear the enemy. It's a fire and forget that will get through[/i]that can chip away at the enemy and his nearby pals. It can be a healer's contribution to the occasional DPS, for example.

Having multiple curses active on a single target would lead to massive unavoidable damage 3.5 seconds later, which would lead to an imbalance, unfortunately.

I'd like to see it more effective, but don't want it to turn into the latest nuke.

NotSo

I hate that impenetrable completely counters crit builds but I understand that if a nerf happened to that trait then everybody would rush to crit.

The way I see it is impenetrable and crit need to both be addressed. Impenetrable should decrease crit damage taken, and crit needs it's own way to amp up the amount of crit damage dealt. But there also needs to be a balance between how much crit chance you can have with how hard a crit can hit, i.e. the way you would build up crit chance would take up the same method as building up crit power (though I think it should be easier to build up crit power).

On another note, I don't think crits should be allowed to hit for more than 50% extra damage in pvp. Literally reduce crit damage % rate exclusively for pvp. Let's say the highest possible crit damage for pve was at 120% extra damage; if you were at halfway with 60% extra power to crit, then when you'd go into pvp, now you're at 25% extra damage.

Another thing that should be addressed is the ultimate generation caused by crit. Everybody would run crit build if impenetrable only reduced crit damage, they'd be running around ultimate'ing all over the place, so the only thing left to do is simply deactivate that kind of ultimate generation or reduce it in some way, like giving it a 3 second cooldown or building it up in a separate resource that wouldn't pool into the main resource until after leaving combat.

The reason why crit needs to still be viable in pvp is because of the crit-ccentric abilities that have a secondary effect that activates when you crit, such as the heal from critical surge. Players who build off crit shouldn't be forced to play any other way. With sorcerers, not having a viable crit build in pvp means most of us are cookie cutter builds.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go copy/past this into a thread.

Dracane

Impenetrable can stay as it is. The thing is, that other traits need a massive buff, to make them more meaningfull.

So that impenetrable players have the feeling, choosing impenetrable is a trade off, because they loose the benefits of the other traits. Just offer more valid choices, and people will automatically become more versatile and will switch over to other good traits. Maybe adding new, interesting ones won't hurt as well.

NotSo

You can't just buff everything else, you need to bring the overpowered things back down to earth or the whole system has to change.

Dracane

Impenetrable is not overpowered. The other traits are just trash and even impenetrable is not really good, since few people even use crits and receiving crits is so hard anyway, since damage against blocks and damage shields can't crit and each good player has such things.

So impenetrable is very situational and even then, it's no big protection against crits. Infused and divine need buffs, that's all.

Dracane

Damn, I really have no mood at the moment -.- I wanna play my Sorc, but I just can't. Because I don't know, what 1.6 is going to bring us. There is so much insecurity and fear at the moment. I feel so vulnerable and weak in PvP.

Dymence

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Merlin13KAGL wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Turn daedric curse into a DoT that isn't limited to 1 per target for the entire raid, and I'll be happy.

@Dymence

Current damage is okay. Not great, but ok.

One curse active at a time is ok...per target. It's a curse. No reason why it should not be able to be applied to multiple targets, with another cast (yours, or someone else's) overwriting.

One curse active period, ridiculous.

I'll have to disagree with you on this one. Lore and logic should never impair how a game functions and feels for players. If you play endgame content, you will never ever use this spell as long as it's limited to one curse being active per target. And that's just bad game design, in my opinion.

@Dymence , please expand on how my statement causes lore and logic to impair function and feeling? (Not arguing, I'm not sure what you mean.)

I do play end game content and curse, even in it's semi-broken form, occasionally has its place.

Also, one per target would still be an improvement over one curse period right now.

Are you ever going to crank out DPS with it? No, but that's also not really what it's built for.

Curse is intended to wear the enemy. It's a fire and forget that will get through[/i]that can chip away at the enemy and his nearby pals. It can be a healer's contribution to the occasional DPS, for example.

Having multiple curses active on a single target would lead to massive unavoidable damage 3.5 seconds later, which would lead to an imbalance, unfortunately.

I'd like to see it more effective, but don't want it to turn into the latest nuke.

What I mean with my statement is that, in it's current state, no one will ever use it in PVE endgame content, because it's limited to one active curse per period. Even if it would change to one active per target, it wouldn't improve at all. Still no one would use it. And all this just because it's a 'curse' and the meaning of the word dictates that it is not possible to have more than one active?

Having said that, I think that even if they remove the 'one active curse' rule it still won't be good enough to use in PVE and people will be abusing it like crazy in PVP because they'll be able to pop players in seconds by stacking sorcs in their raids. That's why I would prefer to have it as a DoT, because sorcs are sadly lacking in this department, having no DoTs at all.

I mean, if we're going to make the game so that damage skills from various classes can overwrite eachother, why not make DoTs from others classes overwrite eachother? There, balance.

Epsilon_Echo

NordJitsu wrote: »

Sorcs primary problem is a lack of survivability. They have the worst self healing options in the game and generally poor defensive skills (exception is Lightning Form.) They used to be able to at least disengage from a fight, but repeated nerfs to BE have made that extremely unreliable.

Another problem that the Sorcerer has is a lack of variability. There really are only a few ways to build a good sorc which is why they come off so samey. Almost an entire line (Daedric Summoning) is worthless. Bound Amor takes up too much magicka, too many skill slots, and doesn't offer enough benefit. Pets don't do enough DPS, die too quickly, and don't offer much utility (except the Twilight Matriarch which still suffers from the other two problems.) There are other bad skills as well.

I agree, the Deadric Summoning line is universally useless in most end-game content.

NordJitsu wrote: »

Lightning Splash is very hard to hit with and thus the damage is underwhelming (people just walk out.) Rune prison is far too easily broken.

No. I disagree. This skill is very useful in PvE and boosting it in PvP would make it over powered to similar AoE skills that it already out-shines such as Volley, or even Blazing spear, which you mentioned but didn't note that it does 30 dps as opposed to Lighting Poll that does over 100.

Rune prison would be useful with a decreased cast time, I advocate nothing else for it.

NordJitsu wrote: »

The result is a class that is 3rd best in damage, 3rd best in healing, and 4th in tanking.

With the new viability of Stamina based DPS, claims like these a vague and largely un-proveable. I get nothing from this statement.

That's all I really wanted to address in your OP. You make alot of true statements about useless skills and the like. But your posts give the impression that you only really care about PvP, magic based viability; often times at the cost of stamina builds or even PvE magic based builds. This continued trend in your statements leads me to discount your points all-together. That, and your continued insistence on knee-capping DKs even though you of all people talk like you should understand the pain of constant nerfs.

For perspective IMO, as a magic based sorc I:

Still run 850dps in Trials

Still run 1700dps AoE

Can still be a Viable tank

Can still heal in Trials

Still pull an AVERAGE 50 KDR in Cyrodiil.

The class does everything I want it too. Some better than my other toons, some worse. Other than minor tweaks to some skills, I see no need to invoke the hands of ZOS who historically are just as likely to bjork something as often as fix it.

Dracane

I wish, they would make it so, that daedric mines would stop and root gap closing enemies.Melee fighters are sooo strong and it would be logical and better, if the mines would stop them.

This would justify the high cost for the mines.

Gorthax

Dracane wrote: »

Impenetrable is not overpowered. The other traits are just trash and even impenetrable is not really good, since few people even use crits and receiving crits is so hard anyway, since damage against blocks and damage shields can't crit and each good player has such things.

So impenetrable is very situational and even then, it's no big protection against crits. Infused and divine need buffs, that's all.

excuse me, I literally just spit my coffee out reading that. Funniest thing on these forums!! The bold part is where I spat my coffee out!