Fixing Sorceres in 1.6

Magdalina

Wait, so as opposed to damage buff and heal from our only really useful class skill we will now only get damage buff? That's after people spent weeks complaining how sorcs need some love? WOW.

That spell damage buff better be REALLY major to pay off for sorc being the only class with literally 0 self heals. Because if OH *** happens every single other class can swap to an offbar with an emergency heal slotted and, you know, heal. >.> Time to level my baby DK?

DeLindsay

Magdalina wrote: »

Wait, so as opposed to damage buff and heal from our only really useful class skill we will now only get damage buff? That's after people spent weeks complaining how sorcs need some love? WOW.

That spell damage buff better be REALLY major to pay off for sorc being the only class with literally 0 self heals. Because if OH *** happens every single other class can swap to an offbar with an emergency heal slotted and, you know, heal. >.> Time to level my baby DK?

Try again, NB has no such heal. Sorcs have a shield, NB's do not. Sorcs also have the ability to raise their own Armor/Spell Resistance at will, NB don't have that either. The bolded part applies to Sorcs as well as all 3 other Classes, all you have to do is have a Resto staff on said alt bar and bam, emergency heal. The point is the fallacy of your argument that somehow not losing Crit Surge and gaining Spell Damage on the 2nd morph instead of Power Surge, that lets face it nobody really uses, is somehow bad for Sorcs.

I agree it's hilarious that ZoS said they're happy with how Sorcs are atm. Sorcs and Templar both certainly still need some lovin, but this change will likely end up for the better overall. For PvP it's moot as you can barely crit as it is. For PvE (group content) it's moot because you shouldn't need to self heal. Solo content is the only application where it might make a noticeable difference (only for caster Sorcs), but once again, put a Resto staff on your alt bar and there you go. Or dare I say it, try out a 2H/DW or Bow/DW or Bow/2H build using Crit Surge and mow through content faster than you can with a Destro staff now.

Gorthax

xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote: »

Dracane wrote: »

Impenetrable is not overpowered. The other traits are just trash and even impenetrable is not really good, since few people even use crits and receiving crits is so hard anyway, since damage against blocks and damage shields can't crit and each good player has such things.

So impenetrable is very situational and even then, it's no big protection against crits. Infused and divine need buffs, that's all.

excuse me, I literally just spit my coffee out reading that. Funniest thing on these forums!! The bold part is where I spat my coffee out!

He's correct in terms of pvp, it's pointless to build for crit.

i did say the BOLD --> BOLD <-- part is where I spit my coffee out, when he said impen is useless

Gorthax

P.S.

I made this meme for this thread Enjoy ^_~

DeLindsay

The irony of your meme @Gorthax is they may have buffed pets so much that once 1.6 hits Sorc pet builds may very well be top dog. I don't know this as fact but who knows. Still funny meme though.

Gorthax

DeLindsay wrote: »

The irony of your meme @Gorthax is they may have buffed pets so much that once 1.6 hits Sorc pet builds may very well be top dog. I don't know this as fact but who knows. Still funny meme though.

Yea but they still did not mention if AoE skills were going to be getting buffs, specifically Liquid lightning and wall of elements. AoE dps is my favorite kind and currently (not talking pulsar, hate that move) the cost versus damage is just not enough to be viable outside of pve. My second favorite is pets so I am excited for that :P

As I have said many many times; I am nervous about what 1.6 will be doing to sorc skills as well as excited. Not sure which one is more dominant though :P

XEVENEX

If PvP Sorcs become dinosaur and flappy bird shepherds, I will QQ and rage quit.

Gorthax

We should just accept the role non melee non bow sorcs have now been given.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

DeLindsay wrote: »

The irony of your meme @Gorthax is they may have buffed pets so much that once 1.6 hits Sorc pet builds may very well be top dog. I don't know this as fact but who knows. Still funny meme though.

Pets with their current UI and control options will never be viable in PvP. If they are just fixing sorcs for trials then that is par for the course for ZOS.

Playing a class skill based magicka sorc in PvP, where everyone can reflect or counter 90% of your skills is just not fun.

Summoner =/= Sorcerer


Sorcs need an instant cast, non-reflectable class ability. Perhaps the other morph of crystal shard that no one uses can be changed to an AOE with a narrow beam.

Also the complete dud of a skill, rune prison needs to be removed. Make one morph dispel enemy buffs and it would be a great counter and fun mechanic that will help sorcs tremendously.

Honorable mentions include overload (clunky) and liquid lightning. (too weak, too small of radius, too short of duration).

Instead of thinking sorcs are fine, ZOS has plenty they could do with the suggestions above. I have compiled all of these suggestions here.

NotSo

Gorthax wrote:

Yea but they still did not mention if AoE skills were going to be getting buffs, specifically Liquid lightning . . .

ZoS never "said" anything about it but they sure had a screenshot during ESO live.
As you can see, the duration has been increased to 5 seconds, and this hasn't even been morphed yet.

This leads me to believe that while you can quote ZoS saying they are totally fine with Sorcerer abilities, what I think they meant was that they didn't see a need to change any base mechanics of abilities; like how some Nightblade and Dragon Knight abilities got a revamp.

So, I am still looking forward to what changes we will see for sorcs when update 6 drops. But I am not looking forward to no longer being able to stack Retreating Maneuver with Boundless Storm with Hasty Retreat with Athletics and running just as fast as a level 50 light horse (also with Retreating Maneuver).

Nightreaver

Dymence wrote: »

I figured you were speaking about stamina builds as a whole, not just stamina builds limited to the sorcerer class. My point was, that a spell damage buff for a stamina build is entirely obsolete because stamina builds do not use magicka class damage dealing skills. And since class skills with a supportive nature don't benefit from the spell damage stat, stamina builds do not gain anything from it.

Agreed and the same goes for Magicka builds.
So for Stamina builds the choice is obvious. One option offers Weapon damage + Crit Heal while the other option only offers weapon damage.
Magicka builds will have the opposite issue. For them one option only offers Crit Heal while the other only offers spell power.
The difference being that Stamina builds get both while Magicka builds must choose between one OR the other.

DeLindsay wrote: »

Try again, NB has no such heal.

I hope you're not trying to imply that NBs don't have heals because every one of your trees has abilities that heals the player.
Killers blade - Heals player for 18% Max health when killing an enemy with this ability
Reapers Mark - Killing a marked target restores player's health by 60%.
Funnel Health - Heals player for 25% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Player also receives 10% more healing from all other sources while this ability is slotted.
Leeching Strikes - Basic weapon attacks restore 3% Magicka, 3% Stamina and 2% Health
Sap Essence - Nearby allies are healed (X) amount. This value is increased 20% for each enemy hit.
Soul Siphon - Increase healing from Siphons 15%

DeLindsay wrote: »

The bolded part applies to Sorcs as well as all 3 other Classes,
all you have to do is have a Resto staff on said alt bar and bam, emergency heal.

It doesn't apply to the other 3 classes because as @Magdalina noted, all 3 other classes have abilities that can heal the player.

DeLindsay wrote: »

The point is the fallacy of your argument that somehow not losing Crit Surge and gaining Spell Damage on the 2nd morph instead of Power Surge, that lets face it nobody really uses, is somehow bad for Sorcs.

As I've said before, the issue isn't Sorcerer vs. other classes it's Sorcerer Magicka build vs. Sorcerer Stamina build.
Stamina build gets morph that gives them both power increase + Crit Heal while Magicka build must choose one or the other.

DeLindsay wrote: »

Or dare I say it, try out a 2H/DW or Bow/DW or Bow/2H build using Crit Surge and mow through content faster than you can with a Destro staff now.

I want to be able to compete with a NB......not be one.
All that does is confirm the gap between Stamina and Magicka builds which
this change will only widen.

DeLindsay wrote: »

The irony of your meme @Gorthax is they may have buffed pets so much that once 1.6 hits Sorc pet builds may very well be top dog. I don't know this as fact but who knows. Still funny meme though.

OR.....with the changes to the other classes Sorcerers could end up being even lower than they already are. Being the best DPS for Sorcerers does not mean the best DPS.
Pretty much every MMO since EQ1 has had pet classes. Can't think of a single one where raids required players with pet classes or players with pets were the best DPS option. I can think of raid and dungeon encounters where pets were not allowed.

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

ZoS never "said" anything about it but they sure had a screenshot during ESO live.
As you can see, the duration has been increased to 5 seconds, and this hasn't even been morphed yet.

Yes, I noticed the duration is increased. Hate to burst your bubble but did you also notice that the Magicka cost is about 10 times what it currently is WHICH IS FINE since I'm assuming that is due to the Champion scaling. My concern is the damage which would equate to about half of what it is currently using the same scaling. Same damage over twice the time for a ground effect would be a nerf, not a buff.

NotSo

My Lightning Flood hits for around 92 damage four times (368 damage) which is a little over 10% of a high hp player (before resistances).
This Lighting Pool hits for 382 damage nine(?) times (3438 damage) which is like 24% of this guy's hp seen below; or, if all his attribute points were health (around 20000 health) then it's like 17%.

This is assuming that the Lightning Pool seen above is cast by a vr14 in a magicka spec. If not, then it is probably a lot stronger than this.
Obviously this isn't doing more damage if we look at just four tics but the increased duration definitely makes a difference.

If I ever go back to a magicka build I would absolutely grab Lightning Flood to drop on block casters. You can't block magicka aoe damage and you can't dodgeroll magicka aoe damage and you can't reflect magicka aoe damage. Lightning Flood for life.

DeLindsay

Nightreaver wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Try again, NB has no such heal.

I hope you're not trying to imply that NBs don't have heals because every one of your trees has abilities that heals the player.
Killers blade - Heals player for 18% Max health when killing an enemy with this ability
Reapers Mark - Killing a marked target restores player's health by 60%.
Funnel Health - Heals player for 25% of the damage inflicted every 2 seconds for 10 seconds. Player also receives 10% more healing from all other sources while this ability is slotted.
Leeching Strikes - Basic weapon attacks restore 3% Magicka, 3% Stamina and 2% Health
Sap Essence - Nearby allies are healed (X) amount. This value is increased 20% for each enemy hit.
Soul Siphon - Increase healing from Siphons 15%

DeLindsay wrote: »

The bolded part applies to Sorcs as well as all 3 other Classes,
all you have to do is have a Resto staff on said alt bar and bam, emergency heal.

It doesn't apply to the other 3 classes because as @Magdalina noted, all 3 other classes have abilities that can heal the player.

DeLindsay wrote: »

You are trying to twist what the other person said. They said "Because if OH *** happens every single other class can swap to an offbar with an emergency heal slotted and, you know, heal." Not one single ability that NB's have can be remotely considered an emergency heal. Yes we have abilities that heal us, all but one require an enemy target to activate/heal and the one that doesn't heals for ~34/tick at VR14. There is no way you are going to save yourself if the stuff hits the fan with a heal for 34 health. To put it bluntly, in regards to what that poster said, a Health Potion is a superior emergency heal for NB's to anything else in our Class trees.

Gorthax

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

Gorthax wrote:

Yea but they still did not mention if AoE skills were going to be getting buffs, specifically Liquid lightning . . .

ZoS never "said" anything about it but they sure had a screenshot during ESO live.
As you can see, the duration has been increased to 5 seconds, and this hasn't even been morphed yet.

This leads me to believe that while you can quote ZoS saying they are totally fine with Sorcerer abilities, what I think they meant was that they didn't see a need to change any base mechanics of abilities; like how some Nightblade and Dragon Knight abilities got a revamp.

So, I am still looking forward to what changes we will see for sorcs when update 6 drops. But I am not looking forward to no longer being able to stack Retreating Maneuver with Boundless Storm with Hasty Retreat with Athletics and running just as fast as a level 50 light horse (also with Retreating Maneuver).

HOW THE FLIP DID I MISS THAT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMFG TY!

Gorthax

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

My Lightning Flood hits for around 92 damage four times (368 damage) which is a little over 10% of a high hp player (before resistances).
This Lighting Pool hits for 382 damage nine(?) times (3438 damage) which is like 24% of this guy's hp seen below; or, if all his attribute points were health (around 20000 health) then it's like 17%.

This is assuming that the Lightning Pool seen above is cast by a vr14 in a magicka spec. If not, then it is probably a lot stronger than this.
Obviously this isn't doing more damage if we look at just four tics but the increased duration definitely makes a difference.

If I ever go back to a magicka build I would absolutely grab Lightning Flood to drop on block casters. You can't block magicka aoe damage and you can't dodgeroll magicka aoe damage and you can't reflect magicka aoe damage. Lightning Flood for life.

My only complaint with it is the fact that it is so easily avoided. I know everything is, but its freaking lightning lol This is where I hope spellcrafting makes me warm and fuzzy! LIGHTNING MAGE 4 LIFE!

NotSo

Yeah I might just rebuild to a restostaff/restostaff because those heavy attacks award so much magicka you could keep Lightning Flood up indefinitely.

I'm stamina with 2h/bow right now

RinaldoGandolphi

I'm bummed about the loss of power surge because its the only morph worth taking. The extra duration is better then the crit heals.

In group content, I rely on my healer to heal, I stay out of red circles, etc. This means I don't have to recast surge every 20 secs I get 40 secs Instead which means less mana casting surge and more used to kill what I'm attacking, its 100% better from a resource management perspective. I always run resto staff anyways.

Now ill be stuck with a 20 sec duration to an expensive skill.

The morph should be either:

Crit surge-Increased weapon and spell damage heal on crit.

Power surge- increased weapon and spell damage, longer duration, and 5% higher damage buff at rank 4

Now we have 2 equally viable choices.

DeLindsay

woodsro wrote: »

I'm bummed about the loss of power surge because its the only morph worth taking. The extra duration is better then the crit heals.

In group content, I rely on my healer to heal, I stay out of red circles, etc. This means I don't have to recast surge every 20 secs I get 40 secs Instead which means less mana casting surge and more used to kill what I'm attacking, its 100% better from a resource management perspective. I always run resto staff anyways.

Now ill be stuck with a 20 sec duration to an expensive skill.

The morph should be either:

Crit surge-Increased weapon and spell damage heal on crit.

Power surge- increased weapon and spell damage, longer duration, and 5% higher damage buff at rank 4

Now we have 2 equally viable choices.

We have no idea if ZoS is going to keep Power Surge duration and just add Spell Damage to it or not, there's no reason to speculate one way or the other yet. 1.6 will be on PTS very soon and we can all check then.

Gorthax

DeLindsay wrote: »

woodsro wrote: »

I'm bummed about the loss of power surge because its the only morph worth taking. The extra duration is better then the crit heals.

In group content, I rely on my healer to heal, I stay out of red circles, etc. This means I don't have to recast surge every 20 secs I get 40 secs Instead which means less mana casting surge and more used to kill what I'm attacking, its 100% better from a resource management perspective. I always run resto staff anyways.

Now ill be stuck with a 20 sec duration to an expensive skill.

The morph should be either:

Crit surge-Increased weapon and spell damage heal on crit.

Power surge- increased weapon and spell damage, longer duration, and 5% higher damage buff at rank 4

Now we have 2 equally viable choices.

We have no idea if ZoS is going to keep Power Surge duration and just add Spell Damage to it or not, there's no reason to speculate one way or the other yet. 1.6 will be on PTS very soon and we can all check then.

Stop being the voice of reason :P these forums can not handle that! Either doom and gloom or Doom and gloom! Anything else will shatter their realities!

XEVENEX

I'm honestly pretty happy with Sorcerer right now, we just need a little more DPS. With destruction staff scaling with magicka now, I'm hopeful.

Gorthax

Yes sorcs need more dps. I like where they are but the cost versus damage output is just not there. Especially when you compare to every other class.

naturn

Sorcs need more dps, some way to get past spell reflection/block a bit better, and a little more survivability. Then they will be pretty good.... well mostly.... ok, we will find something new to complain about...

Magdalina

DeLindsay wrote: »

Magdalina wrote: »

Wait, so as opposed to damage buff and heal from our only really useful class skill we will now only get damage buff? That's after people spent weeks complaining how sorcs need some love? WOW.

That spell damage buff better be REALLY major to pay off for sorc being the only class with literally 0 self heals. Because if OH *** happens every single other class can swap to an offbar with an emergency heal slotted and, you know, heal. >.> Time to level my baby DK?

Try again, NB has no such heal. Sorcs have a shield, NB's do not. Sorcs also have the ability to raise their own Armor/Spell Resistance at will, NB don't have that either. The bolded part applies to Sorcs as well as all 3 other Classes, all you have to do is have a Resto staff on said alt bar and bam, emergency heal. The point is the fallacy of your argument that somehow not losing Crit Surge and gaining Spell Damage on the 2nd morph instead of Power Surge, that lets face it nobody really uses, is somehow bad for Sorcs.

I agree it's hilarious that ZoS said they're happy with how Sorcs are atm. Sorcs and Templar both certainly still need some lovin, but this change will likely end up for the better overall. For PvP it's moot as you can barely crit as it is. For PvE (group content) it's moot because you shouldn't need to self heal. Solo content is the only application where it might make a noticeable difference (only for caster Sorcs), but once again, put a Resto staff on your alt bar and there you go. Or dare I say it, try out a 2H/DW or Bow/DW or Bow/2H build using Crit Surge and mow through content faster than you can with a Destro staff now.

But NBs have siphon or whatever it's called, the attack that also heals you. I don't have an NB but I see people using it to heal quite a bit. It might not be as good and huge as Dragonblood but it's viable, doesn't rely on crit and doesn't require a resto staff.

The bad part is now we have damage buff and heal(ONLY class heal, Dark deal isn't even worth mentioning). If they go through with this change we will have a (better as it'll buff our class skills, too, even though most of them suck) damage buff and no heal(at all). In my eyes it's a nerf. Being potentionally able to do more damage doesn't do much good to a corpse.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Sorcs need more DPS and survivability from CLASS SKILLS. Not from destro/resto.

Why does Destro/Resto have to be the only viable magicka build for sorcs? This is not the case for any other class. Resto staves are mandatory for sorcs in PvP and optional for other classes because of CLASS heals that every other class has and sorcs lack. This would be ok if we still had high mobility to add survivability but we all know what happened to that.

When ZOS says sorcs just need tweaks and others agree and are thinking of destro staves scaling off magicka, it makes my head hurt. Some of us like to play spellswords and are not into elder staves online.

Here's what sorcs need:

1. Better DPS from class skills. e.g. a continuous DOT, and an instant cast, instant damage spell that is NOT reflect-able.
2. A complete revamp on useless, clunky skills such as rune prison, and overload (ultimate). Suggestion for Overload Revamp Here
3. A very sharp tune-up on skills that are very near useless or cost way too much for what they do. e.g. encase, liquid lightning, daedric mines.
4. A re-acessment of the Bolt Escape nerf in light of the current game meta. Full analysis of why Bolt Escape needs another look here

NordJitsu

Guys, this thread isn't about NBs. It's about Sorcerers.

That said, I've seen NBs tank zergs with sap essence AND escape more reliably than Sorcs with Dark Cloak.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

NordJitsu wrote: »

Guys, this thread isn't about NBs. It's about Sorcerers.

That said, I've seen NBs tank zergs with sap essence AND escape more reliably than Sorcs with Dark Cloak.

Every thread is a thread about Nightblades

Random Forum Poster: Hey guys I can't finish this quest in coldharbour because the hitbox is inbedded in a solid object.

Forumblade: You should be happy, at least your cloak doesn't bug out in the middle of cyrodiil with enemies all around.

Random Forum Poster: Um, yeah that would suck but that has nothing to do with why I made this post. What about my problem?

Forumblade: NIGHTBLAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAADES!!!!!!!


"Hijack Thread" is a hidden skill under the siphoning tree.

Nightreaver

DeLindsay wrote: »

Not one single ability that NB's have can be remotely considered an emergency heal. Yes we have abilities that heal us, all but one require an enemy target to activate/heal.

If someone is in combat and they're not targeting an enemy then Healing may not be their biggest problem.

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

My Lightning Flood hits for around 92 damage four times (368 damage) which is a little over 10% of a high hp player (before resistances).
This Lighting Pool hits for 382 damage nine(?) times (3438 damage) which is like 24% of this guy's hp seen below; or, if all his attribute points were health (around 20000 health) then it's like 17%.

This is assuming that the Lightning Pool seen above is cast by a vr14 in a magicka spec. If not, then it is probably a lot stronger than this.
Obviously this isn't doing more damage if we look at just four tics but the increased duration definitely makes a difference.

Your Lightning Flood should be hitting 5 times so at 92 damage it should be doing 460 damage. (153.3 DPS)
In 1.6 it looks like everything is 10x what it is on Live so to compare the damage in the picture to Live I divided the damage by 10 which results in 38.2 x 9 for 343.8 damage. (68.7 DPS)
I personally would much rather have a targeted AOE that does 460 damage over 3 seconds than one that does 343 over 5 seconds. The AOE is small enough that if the enemy is concerned about the damage all they need do is take a step in any direction and they'll be out of it.

Septimus_Magna

As a VR14 Sorcerer focussed on end game pve content I agree with the fact that we need some serious changes. Im only doing 900 dps in trails compared to 1.6k from my NB guild mates (and Im considered one of the better dps sorcs). The problem imo is the lack of long lasting dots which cost low magicka. Hopefully curse will change because I see no other option.

The change to spell dmg for destro staff could also be a good thing. I plan on stacking spell dmg (to max 181 without softcap). This change will also make crystal frags a lot more powerfull. The disadventage is the decrease of self heals because crit surge becomes obsolete. What do you think about these changes in regards to dps sorcs?

Gorthax

Nightreaver wrote: »

DeLindsay wrote: »

Not one single ability that NB's have can be remotely considered an emergency heal. Yes we have abilities that heal us, all but one require an enemy target to activate/heal.

If someone is in combat and they're not targeting an enemy then Healing may not be their biggest problem.

ian92415b14_ESO wrote: »

My Lightning Flood hits for around 92 damage four times (368 damage) which is a little over 10% of a high hp player (before resistances).
This Lighting Pool hits for 382 damage nine(?) times (3438 damage) which is like 24% of this guy's hp seen below; or, if all his attribute points were health (around 20000 health) then it's like 17%.

This is assuming that the Lightning Pool seen above is cast by a vr14 in a magicka spec. If not, then it is probably a lot stronger than this.
Obviously this isn't doing more damage if we look at just four tics but the increased duration definitely makes a difference.

Your Lightning Flood should be hitting 5 times so at 92 damage it should be doing 460 damage. (153.3 DPS)
In 1.6 it looks like everything is 10x what it is on Live so to compare the damage in the picture to Live I divided the damage by 10 which results in 38.2 x 9 for 343.8 damage. (68.7 DPS)
I personally would much rather have a targeted AOE that does 460 damage over 3 seconds than one that does 343 over 5 seconds. The AOE is small enough that if the enemy is concerned about the damage all they need do is take a step in any direction and they'll be out of it.

your math is ALL wrong @Nightreaver‌ lol look at the screen cap I quote BELOW




this picture shows 382 EVERY .5 seconds for FIVE seconds. Either get your info correct, or stop bringing doom and gloom here. The more you know makes ignorance a non existing issue my friends

link to see it blown up is here

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/f/2014/357/8/f/untitled_1_by_notsoaccurateno1-d8azmcm.jpg

So thats 382 damage every .5 seconds for five seconds is 3820 damage IF they are stupid enough to stand in it. I am assuming that this character they shown is NOT geared out. So every other characters results may vary.

Gorthax

Now that I think about it, Lightning Splash is very lack luster compared to that shard they are showing in the picture. one is INSTANT 1600+ damage, and the other is only going to hurt them for 382 damage....

WTF @zos ..... what are you thinking? The shards cost less and is instant damage. Lightning splash cost more and will usually only hit people for the first tic....so 382 damage for 2566 magicka?!

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌

Please have them look into this......this is crazy! @DeLindsay‌ did you notice that?