Is there a dominant class in PvP?

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

Oh…
No.
No, they don't.

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

Oh…
No.
No, it wouldn't.

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

Current Chillrend leaderboard (Overall)

DK: 30
Temp: 23
Sorc: 24
NB: 23

Not really as off balance as you were assuming huh?

Thornblade (Overall)

DK: 31
Temp: 21
Sorc: 22
NB: 26

How is that not off balance though? If this was a political poll and one person had 30 points or more and the other three candidates had less than 25 each it would be considered a huge lead. This isn't a one or two point lead these are five and six point leads over the next closest. That is significant.

Epsilon_Echo · November 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

Oh…
No.
No, they don't.

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

Oh…
No.
No, it wouldn't.

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

Current Chillrend leaderboard (Overall)

DK: 30
Temp: 23
Sorc: 24
NB: 23

Not really as off balance as you were assuming huh?

Thornblade (Overall)

DK: 31
Temp: 21
Sorc: 22
NB: 26

How is that not off balance though? If this was a political poll and one person had 30 points or more and the other three candidates had less than 25 each it would be considered a huge lead. This isn't a one or two point lead these are five and six point leads over the next closest. That is significant.

But his isn't a political race. This is a hack attempt to correlate "OP"ness by leader-boad score. If you were to run into a top 100 player in combat the fractions are still a 1/4 ratio (or rather, within that margin of error).

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

The available information (leaderboards) and available poll simply illustrate that DKs are dominant. It's not hard to understand. You can say "oh it's not an indicative sampling." But they are the top DPS, top tank, and top relevant representation on the leaderboards.

Anything beyond the available proof is subjective and esoteric to those who simply refuse to believe what information is available. That is being obstinate.

Armitas · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

Sorry, you are wrong. I don't care one whit about your little debate. But the best that you can claim about this poll is that a small sample of self-selected individuals say that DKs are the dominant class in PvP. In no way can you claim the results of the poll can be generalized to the larger population. And using the poll results to support your case is risky at best.

I'm confused, are you quoting the right person?

Maybe not. (blush?) I'm not following the back and forth of this debate very carefully and may have misattributed.

I am objecting to people appealing to the authority of a forum poll on statistical grounds. But I think my point went over some heads despite my edit for clarity.

We are in complete agreement.

Armitas · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

Oh…
No.
No, they don't.

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

Oh…
No.
No, it wouldn't.

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

Current Chillrend leaderboard (Overall)

DK: 30
Temp: 23
Sorc: 24
NB: 23

Not really as off balance as you were assuming huh?

Thornblade (Overall)

DK: 31
Temp: 21
Sorc: 22
NB: 26

How is that not off balance though? If this was a political poll and one person had 30 points or more and the other three candidates had less than 25 each it would be considered a huge lead. This isn't a one or two point lead these are five and six point leads over the next closest. That is significant.

A political poll shows who someone is voting for in a democracy. It does not purport a truth value. We can't take a poll on whether water is wet and determine that water is dry because 51 out of 100 people say it's dry.

OrangeTheCat · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

SaibotLiu wrote: »

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

And using the poll results to support your case is risky at best.

Risky in what way? Are all the DK nerds are going to shake their fists in our general direction?

How dare you accost me sir.

That said, this isn't really much of a debate.

Risky in the sense of forming a cogent argument.

Another point is, what do people actually mean by "dominant"? Do they mean that there are more people playing one of the classes than any other? Do they mean that some class is more powerful than any other?

Draxys · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

Really? People still crying about DKs tanking tons of people when NBs and Temps can do the same thing? Eventually the crybabies that don't know how to tweak builds will get DKs nerfed into oblivion, then maybe they will finally realize that NBs are incredibly good when you put down the freakin bow.

Armitas · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

The available information (leaderboards) and available poll simply illustrate that DKs are dominant. It's not hard to understand. You can say "oh it's not an indicative sampling." But they are the top DPS, top tank, and top relevant representation on the leaderboards.

Anything beyond the available proof is subjective and esoteric to those who simply refuse to believe what information is available. That is being obstinate.

This is your assertion. The conclusions you draw from the poll cannot be supported statistically and the leaderboards only represent AP acquired and not dominance, as evidence by bloodporting.

Even if it were true that DK's are the top dps and top tanks that does not mean they are dominant in PvP. That conclusion is non sequitur. Please look up esoteric, you are not using the right word. Esoteric means "understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge" (dictionary.com)

OrangeTheCat brings up a good point. What is meant by dominance here?

Pmarsico9 · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

The available information (leaderboards) and available poll simply illustrate that DKs are dominant. It's not hard to understand. You can say "oh it's not an indicative sampling." But they are the top DPS, top tank, and top relevant representation on the leaderboards.

Anything beyond the available proof is subjective and esoteric to those who simply refuse to believe what information is available. That is being obstinate.

This is your assertion. The conclusions you draw from the poll cannot be supported statistically and the leaderboards only represent AP acquired and not dominance, as evidence by bloodporting.

Even if it were true that DK's are the top dps and top tanks that does not mean they are dominant in PvP. That conclusion is non sequitur. Please look up esoteric, you are not using the right word. Esoteric means "understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge" (dictionary.com)

OrangeTheCat brings up a good point. What is meant by dominance here?

You posit that there's additional information to be had beyond what you just listed. There isn't, and as such, you can only go with what's available to draw a conclusion.

Implying that there is more data available is an out-and-out lie. Because there's not. As such, it's esoteric in that your conveyance of what is a viable sampling in this poll and the data set available is only being perpetuated by a minority who likely play DK's. They are the only ones who can comprehend why you would argue against it.

Aeratus · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Draxys wrote: »

Really? People still crying about DKs tanking tons of people when NBs and Temps can do the same thing? Eventually the crybabies that don't know how to tweak builds will get DKs nerfed into oblivion, then maybe they will finally realize that NBs are incredibly good when you put down the freakin bow.

Overall, DK is a better and more well-rounded archer rather than NB.

In open combat, DK archer is superior. DK archer does not need to worry about enemy ranged attackers as much due to reflective scale.

DK archer is the only type of archer that can shoot down enemy DKs, since you can re-reflect a snipe shot. Twice-reflected shots can no longer be reflected again.

One connected shield charge and NB archers are dead. In contrast, DK archer isn't a glass cannon. NB archers can't heal without a resto staff as a backup, but this wastes an entire weapon swap slot. On the other hand, DK archer can heal using any weapon equipped (using dragon blood), and thus is free to use sword and board as the off-weapon.

Even when ganking, NB is only marginally better in terms of burst damage, but this marginally higher damage isn't a big deal because if he is on a horse, you win anyways. Furthermore, DK can transition onto sustained combat if a gank fails, whereas NB cannot.

cazlonb16_ESO · November 2014

OrangeTheCat wrote: »

Another point is, what do people actually mean by "dominant"? Do they mean that there are more people playing one of the classes than any other? Do they mean that some class is more powerful than any other?

These two things usually coincide.

Armitas · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Pmarsico9 wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

If I were you I would review what I said and keep my eye out for two straw man fallacies.
Done that? Kay here's my response:

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massiv e gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

The learning curve of a class does not make it OP, it just makes it easier to learn.

This is your first straw man fallacy: You got me wrong - I'm not saying that the easy learning curve of DKs make them OP, I'm saying DKs are OP and because of that they have an easy learning curve. It's easy to good with a class that is already better than everyone else. While I'm on this point, this was in response to what this person said:

Armitas wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are not dominant classes, just dominant players.

The fact the vast majority of dominant players play dragonknights is just a funny coincidence.

I think that may be due to the fact that DK's are far easier to play making even non dominant players appear dominant. That and we have excellent DK player support that regularly posts builds which help new DKs get better faster.

So I wasn't trying to put words in your mouth there

That out of the way though…

Armitas wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

What do you think leaderboards represent? You can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day. If you want a more accurate description of who is 1:1 more dominant look into legends.

This is your second straw man fallacy: We're not talking about 1v1s - we're talking about PvP here. And so no matter what happens in one little dueling guild, we don't care because we'll have to look at the facts that represent PvP in its entirety - these being the leader-boards. And if you "can get to the top of the leader boards sitting in bloodport zone all day" - then I'm assuming you're argument here is based on people are actually doing this and getting to the top of the leader-boards.
Which is ridiculous.

Lastly… the poll really isn't in your favor here, bro.

That is not straw manning. When you post a sarcastic troll post with little information expect that people will not understand what you are saying. If you want to make a point people understand don't troll and don't be sarcastic.

Secondly if you are going to use terms like strawman don't also "appeal to the majority" in the same post.

Addressing your points.
Being OP does not necessitate a high learning curve. That is non sequitur. It's also question begging to say they are OP first, then to say that because they are OP they have an easier learning curve, therefore they are OP.

PvP Stand for Player vs Player. A 1v1 is a player vs a player. That is actually PvP even though that is not your prefered style of PvP. As evidenced by the bloodporting the leaderboards are not an accurate representation of domination. The leaderboards are a representation of AP earned received.

It's a poll, the poll doesn't support you, so you get esoteric in justifying why the poll is wrong.

Hipster obstinate trolling is the worst kind of trolling.

Esoteric? What have I said that is esoteric? I have not said the poll is wrong. The poll represents the amount of people that believe DKs are dominant. Unless people are mistakenly voting the poll is not wrong.

Now if you think the amount of people that think DKs are dominant means that they are dominant, then... wow. And if you think 50 people is statistically significant then double wow.

The available information (leaderboards) and available poll simply illustrate that DKs are dominant. It's not hard to understand. You can say "oh it's not an indicative sampling." But they are the top DPS, top tank, and top relevant representation on the leaderboards.

Anything beyond the available proof is subjective and esoteric to those who simply refuse to believe what information is available. That is being obstinate.

This is your assertion. The conclusions you draw from the poll cannot be supported statistically and the leaderboards only represent AP acquired and not dominance, as evidence by bloodporting.

Even if it were true that DK's are the top dps and top tanks that does not mean they are dominant in PvP. That conclusion is non sequitur. Please look up esoteric, you are not using the right word. Esoteric means "understood by or meant for only the select few who have special knowledge" (dictionary.com)

OrangeTheCat brings up a good point. What is meant by dominance here?

You posit that there's additional information to be had beyond what you just listed. There isn't, and as such, you can only go with what's available to draw a conclusion.

Implying that there is more data available is an out-and-out lie. Because there's not. As such, it's esoteric in that your conveyance of what is a viable sampling in this poll and the data set available is only being perpetuated by a minority who likely play DK's. They are the only ones who can comprehend why you would argue against it.

I did not posit any other information source other than legends. Not having a reliable source of information to draw from means you don't draw from it. You wait until you have a reliable source of information to draw from.

This isn't a viable sampling, at all. Don't call me a liar, I did not cite any other source other than legends and they exist. I have not cited anything from a DK perspective, thus your usage of 'esoteric' makes no sense. Nor is it true that only DKs can comprehend my statements because anyone who understands statistics and epistemology can understand why these conclusions based on this poll are improper. Statistics and epistemology are not some esoteric privilege of DKs.

AlexDougherty · November 2014

Templar is the dominant class in PvP

Templar because I doubt anyone else would vote for that one, and my Templar is my strongest character.

Turns out one other person voted Templar.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Armitas wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

Oh…
No.
No, they don't.

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

Oh…
No.
No, it wouldn't.

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

Current Chillrend leaderboard (Overall)

DK: 30
Temp: 23
Sorc: 24
NB: 23

Not really as off balance as you were assuming huh?

Thornblade (Overall)

DK: 31
Temp: 21
Sorc: 22
NB: 26

How is that not off balance though? If this was a political poll and one person had 30 points or more and the other three candidates had less than 25 each it would be considered a huge lead. This isn't a one or two point lead these are five and six point leads over the next closest. That is significant.

A political poll shows who someone is voting for in a democracy. It does not purport a truth value. We can't take a poll on whether water is wet and determine that water is dry because 51 out of 100 people say it's dry.

I was referencing the leader board. My political example was just to show how statistics correlate. Try to keep up.

Sallington · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

You can say it depends on the player all you want. I have never seen anyone in any other class come anywhere remotely close to having the survivability of a DK.

1 DK tanking 5-10 people all focusing on it, and the fight lasts for a solid 45 seconds - 1 minute. Any other class is dead in 5 seconds, I don't care how many blazing shields you spam.

dharbert · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

Why did you even bother with the poll? This thread is simply a thinly veiled whine about DK's supposedly being OP and your inability to counter them.

Messy1 · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

Just want to steer the thread back to the main topic of "is there a dominant class in PvP?" This poll is obviously flawed and does not accurately represent game trends. What is interesting though is the discussion of class builds. I liked the DK archer vs NB archer post. Very interesting.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Armitas wrote: »

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

Epsilon_Echo wrote: »

Nihili wrote: »

Armitas wrote: »

There are no dominant classes, just dominant players.

Of course.
And I'm sure the leader-boards prove what you're saying right?

Oh…
No.
No, they don't.

But I guess if there was a massive gap between DK players' AP and the other classes, that would just be coincidence right?

Oh…
No.
No, it wouldn't.

But I mean, it could just be because DKs are "easy to play", right? That's why there's a difference, bad players find it easy to be good with a DK?

Oh…
Could that be because DK's are OP?

Current Chillrend leaderboard (Overall)

DK: 30
Temp: 23
Sorc: 24
NB: 23

Not really as off balance as you were assuming huh?

Thornblade (Overall)

DK: 31
Temp: 21
Sorc: 22
NB: 26

How is that not off balance though? If this was a political poll and one person had 30 points or more and the other three candidates had less than 25 each it would be considered a huge lead. This isn't a one or two point lead these are five and six point leads over the next closest. That is significant.

A political poll shows who someone is voting for in a democracy. It does not purport a truth value. We can't take a poll on whether water is wet and determine that water is dry because 51 out of 100 people say it's dry.

I'm really not suggesting that the opinions are in any way meaningful in this case. It's beyond coincidence or chance when the top spot is held routinely by 5% or more of the population.

Messy1 · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

dharbert wrote: »

Why did you even bother with the poll? This thread is simply a thinly veiled whine about DK's supposedly being OP and your inability to counter them.

Actually my experience playing in the game so far did not give me an idea of whether or not a class had an advantage in PvP. I have seen examples of well played builds in all classes. I agree with you there has been a lot of whining on the forum about the "supposed" OP ness of DKs, but m h experience in game has not convinced me of that.

Draxys · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

Everyone should stop using language as a tool to appear intellectually superior to someone you disagree with. The fact remains that our data is skewed, and therefore our experiences dictate our response to this issue. My experience comes from a strong PvP guild where our players are good and we fight other groups of good players, as well as groups of not-so-strong players. We see that DKs and NBs are the strongest, and while there are good Sorcs and Temps, those two could use a little tweaking. No domination seen.

brandon · November 2014

Messy1 wrote: »

It just occurred to me . . . I believe that class dominance would be mitigated if more strategies were employed to coordinate alliance groups. I wonder if it would be useful for a menu to be added to each campaign in which players of an alliance could see all the current groups that their alliance has in Cyrodil. When someone forms a group in Cyrodil they could have the option of designating the particular task that group wants to accomplish with an additional description window detailing strategy. For example say I have a Templar in the EP; I enter Cyrodil on my own and want to siege a keep and be a healer so I ask to join the group titled "Siege" or maybe I'm a nightblade and want to gank so I join the "Gank" group, or perhaps I am a sorcerer and want to assault resources so I join the "Resource Assault" group. This would not just be a useful feature for PUGs, but also for guilds who organize their own groups it would allow guildies to quickly go into Cyrodil, find their group on campaign group menu and then simply ask to join. The only thing I am hesitant about is if ZOS could pull off a GOOD grouping PvP tool in Cyrodil. No offense, but the LFG tool in the rest of Tamriel is kinda hurting . . .

I think that would be an amazing idea.

eventide03b14a_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

brandon wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

It just occurred to me . . . I believe that class dominance would be mitigated if more strategies were employed to coordinate alliance groups. I wonder if it would be useful for a menu to be added to each campaign in which players of an alliance could see all the current groups that their alliance has in Cyrodil. When someone forms a group in Cyrodil they could have the option of designating the particular task that group wants to accomplish with an additional description window detailing strategy. For example say I have a Templar in the EP; I enter Cyrodil on my own and want to siege a keep and be a healer so I ask to join the group titled "Siege" or maybe I'm a nightblade and want to gank so I join the "Gank" group, or perhaps I am a sorcerer and want to assault resources so I join the "Resource Assault" group. This would not just be a useful feature for PUGs, but also for guilds who organize their own groups it would allow guildies to quickly go into Cyrodil, find their group on campaign group menu and then simply ask to join. The only thing I am hesitant about is if ZOS could pull off a GOOD grouping PvP tool in Cyrodil. No offense, but the LFG tool in the rest of Tamriel is kinda hurting . . .

I think that would be an amazing idea.

Only problem is that it would give the opponent that information too. All they would have to do is have an alt and they can see what groups are forming and for what purpose and react accordingly.

guybrushtb16_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

dharbert wrote: »

Why did you even bother with the poll? This thread is simply a thinly veiled whine about DK's supposedly being OP and your inability to counter them.

Personally, I find it notable that apparently it is generally accepted that DKs are the only class that you have to build around to this degree to defeat them. I don't think that sounds like very good balance.

Aeratus · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

Armitas wrote: »

I did not posit any other information source other than legends. Not having a reliable source of information to draw from means you don't draw from it. You wait until you have a reliable source of information to draw from.

This isn't a viable sampling, at all. Don't call me a liar, I did not cite any other source other than legends and they exist. I have not cited anything from a DK perspective, thus your usage of 'esoteric' makes no sense. Nor is it true that only DKs can comprehend my statements because anyone who understands statistics and epistemology can understand why these conclusions based on this poll are improper. Statistics and epistemology are not some esoteric privilege of DKs.

1v1 isn't an official game mode. If we're talking about PVP as a whole, for all that it represents, then DK is the dominant class.

Messy1 · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

brandon wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

It just occurred to me . . . I believe that class dominance would be mitigated if more strategies were employed to coordinate alliance groups. I wonder if it would be useful for a menu to be added to each campaign in which players of an alliance could see all the current groups that their alliance has in Cyrodil. When someone forms a group in Cyrodil they could have the option of designating the particular task that group wants to accomplish with an additional description window detailing strategy. For example say I have a Templar in the EP; I enter Cyrodil on my own and want to siege a keep and be a healer so I ask to join the group titled "Siege" or maybe I'm a nightblade and want to gank so I join the "Gank" group, or perhaps I am a sorcerer and want to assault resources so I join the "Resource Assault" group. This would not just be a useful feature for PUGs, but also for guilds who organize their own groups it would allow guildies to quickly go into Cyrodil, find their group on campaign group menu and then simply ask to join. The only thing I am hesitant about is if ZOS could pull off a GOOD grouping PvP tool in Cyrodil. No offense, but the LFG tool in the rest of Tamriel is kinda hurting . . .

I think that would be an amazing idea.

Only problem is that it would give the opponent that information too. All they would have to do is have an alt and they can see what groups are forming and for what purpose and react accordingly.

True . . . But it seems like every faction has spies. And some players play different factions different days. I think factions spying on each other would cancel out any advatages that might be gained. Or you might just see a lot of groups with no description and the designation "n/a"

Turelus · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

I would say it's situational, however the DK still has a lot of abilities which make them better in more situations than most classes.

Ability to reflect almost every projectile in the game, including some ultimates.
Only class able to jump up onto keeps.

Cherryblossom · November 2014

A dominant class is situational i.e. DKs are good against in mass melees, Sorcerers are good at kiting/gank, Nightblades are only good at ganking, Templars are the best healers.

While there is no doubt that DK's are amazingly good at staying alive, it takes a really good player to make them amazing.
Although DK Vamp Emp in the right set up is too OP, anyone who disagree's is lying, this is not opinion this is a fact.
This does seem to be a thread to bash DK's, which I think is unfounded, my reason behind this is, everyone who thinks DK's are OP are basing it on meeting the ones played by very good players. There are a lot more people following suit because the set up is simple and there are many guides.
The largest % of players I've killed are DK's, this is because lot's of people have jumped on the band wagon thinking its the OP class. But they die easy enough.

But I've met OP Nightblades and Sorc's, which took 10 people to put down.

So it's my opinion that Good Players are Good. Good Players tend to go for DK's cos it's easy. Really Good players play Nightblades, which is why you don't see so many OP Nightblades!

I say bolster Templar Damage so we can have an new kid on the block!

brandon · November 2014

eventide03b14a_ESO wrote: »

brandon wrote: »

Messy1 wrote: »

It just occurred to me . . . I believe that class dominance would be mitigated if more strategies were employed to coordinate alliance groups. I wonder if it would be useful for a menu to be added to each campaign in which players of an alliance could see all the current groups that their alliance has in Cyrodil. When someone forms a group in Cyrodil they could have the option of designating the particular task that group wants to accomplish with an additional description window detailing strategy. For example say I have a Templar in the EP; I enter Cyrodil on my own and want to siege a keep and be a healer so I ask to join the group titled "Siege" or maybe I'm a nightblade and want to gank so I join the "Gank" group, or perhaps I am a sorcerer and want to assault resources so I join the "Resource Assault" group. This would not just be a useful feature for PUGs, but also for guilds who organize their own groups it would allow guildies to quickly go into Cyrodil, find their group on campaign group menu and then simply ask to join. The only thing I am hesitant about is if ZOS could pull off a GOOD grouping PvP tool in Cyrodil. No offense, but the LFG tool in the rest of Tamriel is kinda hurting . . .

I think that would be an amazing idea.

Only problem is that it would give the opponent that information too. All they would have to do is have an alt and they can see what groups are forming and for what purpose and react accordingly.

That's true, but it's not like people aren't doing that already anyway. If ZOS can figure out a way that works and can stop cheating i think it would be even better.

Joy_Division · November 2014

There is no dominant class in PvP

Sallington wrote: »

You can say it depends on the player all you want. I have never seen anyone in any other class come anywhere remotely close to having the survivability of a DK.

1 DK tanking 5-10 people all focusing on it, and the fight lasts for a solid 45 seconds - 1 minute. Any other class is dead in 5 seconds, I don't care how many blazing shields you spam.

You need to come to Cyordiil more often and see nightblades use sap essence/veil of blades and Templars with their standard-issue blazing shields.

Sorcs, on the other hand, yep just bolt away

david.haypreub18_ESO · November 2014

Dragon Knight is the dominant class in PvP

The results of the poll speak for themselves.

It seems like only ZOS and some DK players can't see that DKs are the dominant class.

For me, a couple of relatively minor changes would make PvP much more equal. There needs to be an immunity timer on roots like Talons, and Scales either needs to reflect only one projectile or to reflect either physical or magical projectiles (but not both at once).

Still, I have no faith that ZOS will recognize what the majority of its players now recognize. DKs have had it good from the beginning, and ZOS seems incapable of realizing this fact.