Nala_ wrote: »

no one here would be complaining about lethal arrow if it didnt have a healing debuff, let alone one that stacks on top of itself to 0% healing.

It's.. obviously not supposed to do that, though. : P

Tankqull wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

.

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

My crystal frag damage dropped by 150 damage since last patch, critical and non crit. No difference in spell damage and max magicka. I have not critical over 1000 in 1.5 where I was consistently hitting for around 1150 crit pre patch. I was not using the sharpened enchant at all. Also everyone now has way more hp cause of more attribute points, you have to be very skilled as a sorcerer to even taken anyone down nowadays. To me it seems crystal shard has received a stealth need or it was spell damage in general.

Lethal arrow vs crystal shard
Lethal arrow is near invisible where crystal shard is flashy and need to work to get that instacast.
LA hits for 200 more then Crystal shard when I'm maxing shard dps with damage buffs.
LA has a healing debuff with longest range in the game, wtf?
LA hits harder then melee weapon users, again wtf?
LA sneak attacks stun you from all angles not just front, wtf on longest range weapon in the game.
As a sorc I'm seriously looking to hybrid a build to use a bow with the power it weilds compared to my only real class damage ability.
Zos you need to look at pvp balance at some point. Why has dk's survivability not been looked into yet? You know stuff like that.

Lethal arrow only stuns if you are sneaking, which is true of any attack from stealth.

And I'm not trying to be a *** here, I am earnestly asking, why is everyone comparing snipe to crystal frags? One is a class skill, one is a weapon skill available to everyone. One is magicka, one is stamina. I just really don't understand why you're all comparing them as evidence for why snipe should be nerfed.

only a few "physical" attacks do so, with snipe beeing on of them, while its highly arguable why it should do so when having all the other side effects of that attack in mind.
or from the other side why ain't darkflare and crystal shard(cc time beeing extended) as comparable skills?

Why in the world would any one argue as to whether or not a stealthed snipe attack should stun? It's a stealth attack. You realize that I can hit someone for 1.3k from stealth with a two handed sword heavy attack and stun them, right? That is what stealth attacks do. They stun. There should not ever be a single stealth attack that doesn't stun the opponent.

And darkflare and crystal shards are CLASS abilities. Why do you insist on comparing them to weapon skills? If you want to play that game, why is it that sorcs get amazing aoes, but my bow aoes suck? That's not fair, I want better aoes! Why does the sorc get mana regenerating abilites, but the one hand and shield doesn't. I want mana for my sword and board! Why does the sorc get cool lightening graphics, but the resto staff is just gold glow? I want lightening! Why do sorcs get shields, but the destro staff doesn't? I want destro shields!

Come on, son.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Columba wrote: »

If you think snipe is so great, equip a bow. Everyone can use a bow.

Remember when all the people were complaining about stamina builds being completely sub-par and some numbnuts were saying "you should all just put light armor on and equip a staff, everyone can equip light and staff"?

Yeah, don't be that guy.

This is not a generic complain about bows and it's not to distract from the fact that stamina builds still need a little bit more work. It's simply pointing out one particular skill is currently offering too much.

Or perhaps it's that people are suffering heavily for accepting a weakness (squishy armor) to have more powerful magicka capabilities.

I've strapped on the HA and walked out there in a defensive build (but with Dual Wield bar for AOE), and just walked through multiple sniper attacks simultaneously. Even the ones that got past wings (due to lag, bugginess, or my missing a recast) could barely dent me.

Wear LA, be squishy. Tradeoffs.

Or perhaps it isn't and you can stop harping on about your Heavy Armour? You post is not mentioning or arguing against any of the arguments presented so far. Add some content please.

It is making an argument.

Snipe doesn't hit for near what is being complained about if people but the bathrobes back on the hooks and start varying up armor compositions. The commonly used analogy throughout this thread, Crystal Fragments, hits the same against an HA wearer as a LA wearer (less against the LA wearer usually as they typically have higher spell resists by a small margin).

That you don't like the argument is immaterial.

Don't be a jerk.

The entire focus of the arguments have been about how LA wearing players are having issues dealing with Snipe.

Good.

LA/Magicka builds have been king of the heap way too long.

I can throw the "don't be a jerk" back at you. You're reciting this Heavy Armour mantra completely bypassing all the points previously made.

I don't have problem being hurt by physical abilities when wearing light. It's what's supposed to happen in the same way medium armour is supposed to be hurt by magicka abilities.

Your post is not touching on the core of my argument all. I'll quote it again.

My core argument has been that since the changes, Snipe (and moprhs) not only has the biggest burst damage out of all ranged abilities in the game, but it also has the highest DPS and fewer ways to be countered than any other ranged ability.

The above part is true even if the target is wearing heavy armor.

And Heavy Armor still takes reduced damage from it (in comparison to LA).
And has an easier time blocking it (especially with a shield).
And breaks free of the stun out of stealth with greater ease.

All of which counters the strengths of Snipe and its morphs.

As an ability with a cast time and range, the only thing giving it additional safety from you, the victim, is its additional range. It has all the very same counters that Crystal Fragments does (it can be interrupted, it can be reflected, it can be dodge rolled, et al) and there is no way to make it insta-cast (unlike Crystal Frags).

I'm not saying Crystal Frags is better, mind you, just that it has some similar traits.

I've tested and tried it. The heavy armor tank build of a DK has no issues dealing with snipers in PVP. It is the counter.

Don't look for the best counters while wearing LA. You shouldn't find them there.

But to answer you directly -- something has to be the most damaging ability in the game. It's inevitable. That it is the ability that directly contents against the LA/Magicka builds that profligate Tamriel currently is a good thing and it should stay the way it is so that people start changing their builds away from such a preponderance of LA.

In short, I like snipe the way it is and I'm not a bow user.

Oh, and I'm /still/ in bathrobes 75% of the time in Cyrodiil still due to the need to zergbust.

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

... why is it that sorcs get amazing aoes, but my bow aoes suck? ...

Name one amazing Sorc AoE. I dare ya.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

As an ability with a cast time and range, the only thing giving it additional safety from you, the victim, is its additional range. It has all the very same counters that Crystal Fragments does (it can be interrupted, it can be reflected, it can be dodge rolled, et al) and there is no way to make it insta-cast (unlike Crystal Frags).

No, no it doesn't. Eclipse, Defensive Posture, Ball of Lighting. There are more ways to mitigate ranged magickal damage than physical damage.

Each ability has some different features. Snipe has range, sneak damage & debuff, while frags has insta-cast proc and knockdown.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

And Heavy Armor still takes reduced damage from it (in comparison to LA).
And has an easier time blocking it (especially with a shield).
And breaks free of the stun out of stealth with greater ease.

That applies to any ability. Thus it's inconsequential in the comparison. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Even if you wear heavy, snipe is more of a threat than any other ranged ability because it will do more burst, more DPS, while there are less ways to mitigate it.

Varicite wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

I never even made any claims about bows being OP and yet you felt obligated to state this opposite view

You did though. I quoted you. I'm not even sure why you are going out of your way to deny it.

Joy_Division wrote: »

So you are basically fine with overpowered abilities

/shrug

Why can't you admit you are wrong (in this respect)? Read my quote again: "So you are basically fine with overpowered abilities".

There is a reason I put the abstract, general, vague "overpowered abilities" instead of the specific and exacting "snipe" because I am NOT picking on the bow or snipe. I AM saying that people who are trying to refute the claim that ANY ability is overpowered should not say "it can be block or dodged."

It is only because you are so subjectively invested in the bow that you feel I have hopped on the nerf-bow bandwagon.

And I'll say it again. And so you don't think I am picking on bows, let's make up an ability called "kill you" and let's say "kill-you" is from the upcoming Assassin's guild. "Kill-you" is an 0.5 second cast skill that does 10,000 damage from 40 meters away.

Now, I don't care if it can be blocked or dodged. The problem is sometimes you can't dodge/block. And "kill-you" obsoletes every other ranged ability.

A separate discussion that has somehow emerged that I will engage you. Whether or not these other 7 counters you talk about would somehow make "kill-you" ok. It DOES NOT. The problem is that "kill-you" is too strong compared to other ranged abilities in the game.

Do you see where we are going here? It doesn't matter if you pop-up siege shield, hit reflective scales, use an invisibility potion because you can ALSO do that for crystal shards, crushing shock, venom arrow, funnel health, etc. and ALL of those abilities pale in comparison to "kill-you."

So it doesn't matter if "kill-you" is defeated by reflective scales. The weaker abilities are also defeated by reflective scales. It does not address the core of the problem that "kill-you" out-performs other comparable abilities. So even if you expanded you list to 20 or 30 in game-counters to snipe, that doesn't address potential imbalances because those 30 counters will also work for funnel health, crushing shock, dark flare, etc.

At this point I don't know if snipe outperforms other ranged abilities by too much. That discussion should not be clouded by tangential hypotheticals such as "it can be blocked" or "a DK can use reflective shields" because neither or those "counters" addresses the core issue if snipe is too good vs. other range abilities.

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

Kwas wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

... why is it that sorcs get amazing aoes, but my bow aoes suck? ...

Name one amazing Sorc AoE. I dare ya.

Fair enough, let's change it to "why is it that sorcs get amazing pets, but my bow pets suck?" Yeah, that's fits nicely.

Thank you for the correction.

Name one amazing Sorc pet. I dare ya!

Just kidding, I get the point of your post comparing class skills to weapon skills.

As a Sorc who was pointing out the shortfalls of crystal frag, I'll say that I'm alright with Snipe right now as long as the heal debuff from Lethal Arrow morph doesn't stack. I'm not sure if I agree with a heal debuff from range in any form actually. I think something along the lines of 5 second melee heal debuffs and 2.5 second ranged heal debuff with a more noticeable particle effect on yourself is warranted. I just don't like the idea of Purge being a must have ability.

Aoe_Barbecue wrote: »

In light of the new buffs to Bow and Snipe a stackable 50% heal debuff might be a tad much. With that said, I flap-flap with near 100% up time so I can't say I notice too much.

Erock25 wrote: »

As a Sorc who was pointing out the shortfalls of crystal frag, I'll say that I'm alright with Snipe right now as long as the heal debuff from Lethal Arrow morph doesn't stack. I'm not sure if I agree with a heal debuff from range in any form actually. I think something along the lines of 5 second melee heal debuffs and 2.5 second ranged heal debuff with a more noticeable particle effect on yourself is warranted. I just don't like the idea of Purge being a must have ability.

I honestly don't think that (at least I hope not) anyone believes the stacking healing debuff is balanced, or even intended. Seems like a clear bug to me that may not even have a place in this discussion since it should be fixed soon anyway. I really think that's something we can all agree on.

However, I think it's worth mentioning I had heard reports of Dark Flares healing debuff also stacking with consecutive uses. As I'm not a Templar myself, this is only hearsay, so if any temps can confirm this I'd appreciate it. Regardless, if there is any truth to it, fixes might as well go out to both.

Erock25 wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

Kwas wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

... why is it that sorcs get amazing aoes, but my bow aoes suck? ...

Name one amazing Sorc AoE. I dare ya.

Fair enough, let's change it to "why is it that sorcs get amazing pets, but my bow pets suck?" Yeah, that's fits nicely.

Thank you for the correction.

Name one amazing Sorc pet. I dare ya!

Just kidding, I get the point of your post comparing class skills to weapon skills.

As a Sorc who was pointing out the shortfalls of crystal frag, I'll say that I'm alright with Snipe right now as long as the heal debuff from Lethal Arrow morph doesn't stack. I'm not sure if I agree with a heal debuff from range in any form actually. I think something along the lines of 5 second melee heal debuffs and 2.5 second ranged heal debuff with a more noticeable particle effect on yourself is warranted. I just don't like the idea of Purge being a must have ability.

I really think they will fix the heal debuff soon. I haven't seen anyone who thinks it's intended or fair. Well...soonish. Maybe. Maybe they'll just break it more, who knows? Anyway, most people agree it shouldn't be stacking. I really like having the debuff since it helps so very much when soloing in PvE, so I wouldn't want them to take it away completely. Or if they did it should be replaced with something designed for healers instead of melee.

Keep in mind that I've never played a sorcerer, and my beliefs are just based on what I've experienced playing with them and fighting against them, but I do think socerers need some work. They have a couple things that were amazing, to the point of being a little unfair. Then they got nerfed, and it seems like they don't really have anything good left. Crystal frags, I guess. Bolt escape is still one of my favorite skills in terms of roleplaying and lore, as you are *** teleporting! But I've never used it, and a lot sorcs seem to feel it's been nerfed too much. In my mind a classic sorc (not a creative one mixing abilities) should be the highest sustained DPS with the lowest health/survivability. But in this game they aren't really either. Taking away their seriously awesome graphics and kick ass ultimates, they kinda seem bland.

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

As an ability with a cast time and range, the only thing giving it additional safety from you, the victim, is its additional range. It has all the very same counters that Crystal Fragments does (it can be interrupted, it can be reflected, it can be dodge rolled, et al) and there is no way to make it insta-cast (unlike Crystal Frags).

No, no it doesn't. Eclipse, Defensive Posture, Ball of Lighting. There are more ways to mitigate ranged magickal damage than physical damage.

Each ability has some different features. Snipe has range, sneak damage & debuff, while frags has insta-cast proc and knockdown.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

And Heavy Armor still takes reduced damage from it (in comparison to LA).
And has an easier time blocking it (especially with a shield).
And breaks free of the stun out of stealth with greater ease.

That applies to any ability. Thus it's inconsequential in the comparison. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Even if you wear heavy, snipe is more of a threat than any other ranged ability because it will do more burst, more DPS, while there are less ways to mitigate it.

Let me state again, clearly, as I obviously have not been before --

In the current meta (LA/Magicka builds), there needs to be an extremely powerful ability (or could have been several, but it's one) that absolutely wrecks the LA builds. LA builds have been too powerful, too long.

Snipe is that ability.

That it doesn't have sufficient counters until you build for heavy tanking is a good thing for the game.

That LA wearers don't like it is immaterial. They shouldn't. It's the scissors to their paper.

So your argument is that because light armour has been too good for too long and we need more balance (fully agree so far), the game needs a particular skill to be the best damage dealing single-target skill in every way.

So that when doing PvE trials, spamming snipe + light attack should do 1.3k-1.4k dps on bosses.

Ok, gotcha.

I care not one little bit about trials.

To whit, this is the Alliance War forum, so I'll be focusing on the PVP aspect of any skill or balance issue when addressing it. What it does in trials is neither my concern, nor do I care.

Aoe_Barbecue wrote: »

In light of the new buffs to Bow and Snipe a stackable 50% heal debuff might be a tad much. With that said, I flap-flap with near 100% up time so I can't say I notice too much.

This is where I wrinkle my nose as well. I think the 50% heal debuff for such a staple ability to bow users is a bit much. 30% I would say is reasonable.

I have no issues with the change at all it was always how powerful the healing debuff was.

Your main attack shouldn't also be your heal debuff. Enhance bow users rotation past 2 abilities.

Even horribad players can spam lethal arrow and be successful. That shouldn't be how the gameplay works.

Aoe_Barbecue wrote: »

I think Snipe would be kosher as it is if the healing debuff were removed or reduced and made not to stack, and replaced with a passive damage buff or adding a bow-synergistic CC effect like a short stun + an off balance status effect.

One archer with Snipe + a disease enchant on his or her bow can more or less keep a target or two perma-debuffed which is besides the stacking issue. I really don't mind since I run around flap-flapping. But the poor non-DK commoners have no such option to deal with snipe.

Lethal Arrow's healing debuff is not the only one that stacks.

Reverberating Bash + DK Banner = Fun times

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

As an ability with a cast time and range, the only thing giving it additional safety from you, the victim, is its additional range. It has all the very same counters that Crystal Fragments does (it can be interrupted, it can be reflected, it can be dodge rolled, et al) and there is no way to make it insta-cast (unlike Crystal Frags).

No, no it doesn't. Eclipse, Defensive Posture, Ball of Lighting. There are more ways to mitigate ranged magickal damage than physical damage.

Each ability has some different features. Snipe has range, sneak damage & debuff, while frags has insta-cast proc and knockdown.

Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »

And Heavy Armor still takes reduced damage from it (in comparison to LA).
And has an easier time blocking it (especially with a shield).
And breaks free of the stun out of stealth with greater ease.

That applies to any ability. Thus it's inconsequential in the comparison. I don't understand what you're trying to say. Even if you wear heavy, snipe is more of a threat than any other ranged ability because it will do more burst, more DPS, while there are less ways to mitigate it.

Let me state again, clearly, as I obviously have not been before --

In the current meta (LA/Magicka builds), there needs to be an extremely powerful ability (or could have been several, but it's one) that absolutely wrecks the LA builds. LA builds have been too powerful, too long.

Snipe is that ability.

That it doesn't have sufficient counters until you build for heavy tanking is a good thing for the game.

That LA wearers don't like it is immaterial. They shouldn't. It's the scissors to their paper.

So your argument is that because light armour has been too good for too long and we need more balance (fully agree so far), the game needs a particular skill to be the best damage dealing single-target skill in every way.

So that when doing PvE trials, spamming snipe + light attack should do 1.3k-1.4k dps on bosses.

Ok, gotcha.

I care not one little bit about trials.

And I care not that you care not. It doesn't make it any less of a factor.

As I've repeatedly mentioned this skill at the moment is both high burst and high dps with fewer counters than any other ranged skill. There is no such other skill. It's become an alpha build among stamina builds because of that.

If the cast time was increased to 1.5 it would still have same burst while the DPS would be somewhat reduced.

I don't want bow to get butchered as some think. It's nice having non-LA builds out there for once. If anything I do want more incentives to wear heavy armor (along with some heavy armor buffs). I still don't see how that can shift the discussion about the pros and cons of one single skill and whether it brings too much to the table on its current form.

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

Kwas wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

... why is it that sorcs get amazing aoes, but my bow aoes suck? ...

Name one amazing Sorc AoE. I dare ya.

Fair enough, let's change it to "why is it that sorcs get amazing pets, but my bow pets suck?" Yeah, that's fits nicely.

Thank you for the correction.

You're welcome.

There's no point debating this really. Just PvP for half an hour and count all the players not using bows at the moment. It's like nerfed silver shards v2.

I might be okay with it if I wasn't getting hit with "Snipe" at point blank range most of the time... Or if my beloved Sorc wouldn't suck at everything compared to other classes at the moment...