PvP reduced to lethal arrow

Varicite

Why does it need a deadzone, exactly?

Are we trying to make Snipe worthless after the first attack again?

Columba

It's only fair for the longest range in the game

Varicite

Columba wrote: »

It's only fair for the longest range in the game

Bows already suffer a damage penalty when attacking targets close to them, and the ability has a cast time which means it's already dangerous to cast at short ranges due to interrupts.

I think that already makes it pretty fair to not have a deadzone. Changing it back will basically kill it for any type of dynamic engagements when it's already a disadvantage to be using it at close range.

I was all for curbing the sneak bonus damage to prevent players from being killed by the ability w/out an opportunity to fight back.

Knee-jerk changes like the ones you (and others) are proposing here aren't about that, though. Someone casting multiple Snipes on you out of stealth is an opponent you have plenty of opportunities to fight back against; people just don't seem to want to learn how to.

Columba

I am bow specced, and I did fine before the latest buffs. I just don't want it nerfed into uselessness.

Varicite

Columba wrote: »

I am bow specced, and I did fine before the latest buffs. I just don't want it nerfed into uselessness.

You did fine in PvE?

I realize this is a PvP thread, but as someone who uses bows in both aspects of the game, I think it needs to be noted that changes to bows were mostly aimed at PvE.

So gutting its PvE viability a week after it's finally good enough to use for a change purely to appease PvP'ers who very likely will still get killed by it seems... unnecessary.

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

show previous quotes

Columba wrote: »

I am bow specced, and I did fine before the latest buffs. I just don't want it nerfed into uselessness.

You did fine in PvE?

I realize this is a PvP thread, but as someone who uses bows in both aspects of the game, I think it needs to be noted that changes to bows were mostly aimed at PvE.

So gutting its PvE viability a week after it's finally good enough to use for a change purely to appease PvP'ers who very likely will still get killed by it seems... unnecessary.

Firstly you have to stop writing stuff off as simply user error and incompetence with statements "people just don't seem to want to learn how to", or "to appease PvP'ers who very likely will still get killed by it seems... unnecessary".

People will always be dying to snipe, should we double the damage because people will always die anyway? Like we said it's hitting harder, from farther and with less mitigations to it than any other ranged heavy hitter.

Secondly, nobody wants to make snipe worthless. It's just a fact that even for PvE snipe is too good to pass up atm. Like I said people have been hitting 1.3-1.4k DPS on trials bosses with snipe. A build that manages similar DPS is one of the magicka based DK. That DK has to:

1) Tip-toe around red circles and boss AoE attacks in melee range. More risk.
2) Maintain melee range with the boss which can be hard on mobile or teleporting bosses (like The Warrior)
3) Get a rotation going that involves 3 DoTs and a heavy-hitter. Where if you miss the timer on the DoTs your DPS dives.

Yet similar DPS can be achieved without hassle by standing 20 meters away and clicking that one button over and over. None of the other heavy hitting ranged abilities of the game can produce such high DPS on their own. The harder the ability hits with burst (Frags, Dark Flare) the lower the DPS and the lower the burst (Swallow Soul) the higher the DPS.

Snipe at the moment does not adhere to these rules. It does range, stealth, burst, dps, DoT, debuff...it does everything. It gone beyond "good enough", it's gone past being a situational skill as the name would suggest and turned into the best damage ability in the game by a mile.

Domander

I think bow is just right after 1.5, and I don't know what game you're playing if you think it's reduced to snipe wars, lol. It's not.

PvP is a lot of fun right now, and bow has it's place among the different weapon choices.

It's so easy to break LoS/block/heal/interrupt/purge/learn not to stand there and die.

Joy_Division

@‌ Varicite

I find it amusing that you think Columba wants a bow nerfed. Of all people! He, perhaps rightly, fears Zenimax will overreact as it has a habit of doing whenever something perceived too strong. If you are dead set against even the token compromise of a 6 meter deadzone - you aren't even going to use it this close to an human opponent because you will get bashed - this tells me you are way too invested in this skill to have a productive conversation.

You are actually listing siege shield as a legitimate counter! Not to mention invisibility (!), a skill only 1 class can use without expensive potions, and Reflective scales, again a skill only 1 class has.

I never even made any claims about bows being OP and yet you felt obligated to state this opposite view, one that went overboard telling people to deal with it because siege shields and restrictive abilities like reflective scales could thwart a snipe. You think people wont "learn" how to deal with this which will prompt Zenimax to "appease the PvPers" and nerf your favorite weapon.

These are new changes to the bow and they should be objectively evaluated. If it is too strong with respect to comparable skills and does too much and too many people are using it over other weapons, then something should be done. Claiming that it can be blocked or mitigated by siege shields or invisibility is pointless and just clouds up the discussion.

Rylana

Fix the stacking debuff, and this skill is fine as is.

Varicite

Joy_Division wrote: »

I never even made any claims about bows being OP and yet you felt obligated to state this opposite view

You did though. I quoted you. I'm not even sure why you are going out of your way to deny it.

Joy_Division wrote: »

So you are basically fine with overpowered abilities

/shrug

I believe that the dead zone removal was a great thing for PvE (both solo and group), makes no sense logically (why would you not be able to shoot something closer to you, rather than far away?), and really opens up the option to at least attempt to get a shot off at close-range.

At no point did I ever say that I would not use it at close-range, that is you once again trying to create a false argument that has nothing to do w/ what I actually wrote. I said the ability already has hefty drawbacks for using it at close ranges which I felt justified the removal of a deadzone.

I also did not say to spam siege shield while riding your horse from keep to keep, that was also you making up a ridiculous argument and pretending it was even remotely close to what was written.

If, however, you want to counter heavy ranged damage, it does exist as an option. As does Reflective Scales, which is pretty common in PvP. Yes, I listed them, because they are counters. It's not as though they simply don't exist because you A) don't want to use them or B ) aren't that class.

There are options that exist for everyone that I also listed, which is pretty much exactly how you deal w/ heavy ranged damage in most circumstances. That was my main point. I listed 9 things, if you didn't like 2 of the options, that still leaves 7 other ways to get yourself into a better fighting position.

It is the first high-damage ranged burst ability in the game (though magical equivalents have been in game since alpha, that's perfectly fine w/ everybody), and I think it's high time the bow actually became viable to use outside of just stealth ganking.

Perhaps I do have a vested interest, as I've been using bows since beta and have often posted that I'd like bow's stealth damage to be curbed slightly in favor of out-of-stealth damage. I'll fully admit that. It's not as though I hide the fact that I have a couple archers. But if you're suggesting that I'm somehow blinded because I use a bow, that would be silly.

I play a ton of characters of various builds (2 full accounts worth), that would be like saying that I'm biased toward every class and weapon line in the game, lol. Well, except Templars, since that's the only class I can't really seem to get into.

Lava_Croft

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Varicite

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

Columba

Why would you want snipe at close range anyway? There are better skills for that? Lol. Spamming one skill, regardless of the circumstances, is poor play.

Maulkin

Varicite wrote: »

show previous quotes

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

Varicite

Columba wrote: »

Why would you want snipe at close range anyway? There are better skills for that? Lol. Spamming one skill, regardless of the circumstances, is poor play.

There are 2 skill bars, 5 slots each.

You don't have one or two that are your go-to damage dealers?

PS) I like to knock people down and Snipe them a couple times if they don't break CC. In solo PvE, there are plenty of times when I'd rather kill something in 1 second w/ a Snipe rather than spend 3 seconds anim cancelling LA / Venom.

Your question is like asking somebody why they would use Wrecking Blow at all, ever. Because it's high damage and creates a risk vs reward scenario that works out to advantage when you can make it "safe" to use, obviously.

MiyaTheUnbroken

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Varicite wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

Archer's mind increases weapon crit and crit damage. It doesn't say anything at all about bows. To increase spell crit there is Twilight's Embrace, Night Mother's Gaze, and Wise Mage. There could be more. I don't know. The point is, those exist and they are comparable to Archer's Mind.

Davadin

cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »

Also a melee ranged heal debuff should debuff more then a ranged debuff, reverberating bash 40% (haven't maxed it yet and may be more but my point still stands) vs lethal arrow 50% (wow really??). Melee inherents more risk then ranged and abilities should be balanced and treated as such.

2H got a brand new Rally. It's pretty sweet at 60-80 per tick for 20 sec and crit heal at the end for up to 1k...

Maulkin

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

show previous quotes

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

Archer's mind increases weapon crit and crit damage. It doesn't say anything at all about bows. To increase spell crit there is Twilight's Embrace, Night Mother's Gaze, and Wise Mage. There could be more. I don't know. The point is, those exist and they are comparable to Archer's Mind.

Miya, you're absolutely right, I stand corrected.

Thejollygreenone

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Varicite wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Frags can be procced to cast instantly (which is the majority of the time it's used in pvp), thus negating the counter of being able to interrupt.

As well as you seem to be ignoring the fact that Frags has a hard cc attached to it. While Lethal Arrow of course also provides a utility, I might even prefer the knockdown.

Furthermore, if you're going to add in Venom Arrows DoT to the mix, why aren't we adding in the plethora of magicka DoTs that could be added? What about Velocious Curse even?

I'm sorry but I just don't agree with your comparison. The benefits that Frags gets, even with slightly less damage from Long Shots, or weapon power overcharging, or whatever it is, the use of Frags is still on par with the use of Lethal Arrow, in my opinion.

I'm not here to make any speculation on the argument besides this though, so please no one drag me into a conversation I want no part of Just wanted to share my opinion on the effectiveness of frags vs lethal.

P.S.

Spoiler

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

Give a comparison between a fully geared caster sorc and a fully geared stamina archer for frags vs. lethal and I'd be a bit more inclined to side with you.

And then while we're at that we can talk about all the extra defensiveness the caster gains just from picking magicka as a stat to invest into

Maulkin

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

You seem to be ignoring the fact that Frags can be procced to cast instantly (which is the majority of the time it's used in pvp), thus negating the counter of being able to interrupt.

As well as you seem to be ignoring the fact that Frags has a hard cc attached to it. While Lethal Arrow of course also provides a utility, I might even prefer the knockdown.

I've already mentioned all that before so I omitted them for brevity. I have no issues talking about them. In a Frags vs Lethal Arrow comparison (damage aside) they both provide utilities. Frag has inst-proc and hard CC. Snipe has range, health debuff and of course sneak damage + sneak CC. All are good utilities, hard to pick

The core of my argument is that Snipe offers more burst, more DPS and less methods to be mitigated by. Which you have to admit is true.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Furthermore, if you're going to add in Venom Arrows DoT to the mix, why aren't we adding in the plethora of magicka DoTs that could be added? What about Velocious Curse even?

I wasn't adding Venom Arrow DoT, I was mentioning the 100% proc chance from Poison Status. That's the DoT I was talking about. I think it's 4", ~50hp DoT, hence around 200hp dmg total.

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

It seems to calculate my frags with a 1-2 hp error margin. It's pretty close by the look of things. Do you report something completely different for Lethal Arrow than (the corrected) EsoHead number provides? Genuine question, no sarcasm.

Dekkameron

Fortifications being defended by archers?!?! How un-historically accurate!

:shifty:

Erock25

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

P.S.

Spoiler

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

Give a comparison between a fully geared caster sorc and a fully geared stamina archer for frags vs. lethal and I'd be a bit more inclined to side with you.

And then while we're at that we can talk about all the extra defensiveness the caster gains just from picking magicka as a stat to invest into

My non crit Crystal Frag with +120 magicka over soft cap and +6spell power over cap is hitting for around 550-650 since the sharpened fix. It is the opposite of scientific but the Lethal Arrows on my death recap are usually around the 750-850 range and of course the 1200-1600 ones out of stealth as well.

Maulkin

Erock25 wrote: »

show previous quotes

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

P.S.

Spoiler

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

Give a comparison between a fully geared caster sorc and a fully geared stamina archer for frags vs. lethal and I'd be a bit more inclined to side with you.

And then while we're at that we can talk about all the extra defensiveness the caster gains just from picking magicka as a stat to invest into

My non crit Crystal Frag with +120 magicka over soft cap and +6spell power over cap is hitting for around 550-650 since the sharpened fix. It is the opposite of scientific but the Lethal Arrows on my death recap are usually around the 750-850 range and of course the 1200-1600 ones out of stealth as well.

550hp is admittedly on the very low side. Some NPCs seem to have insane spell res, the keep knights in particular.

Players I hit for 600-700 usually which is indeed about 150hp lower on average than what lethal arrows are showing on my death recap, before the Poisoned DoT.

Erock25

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

Erock25 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

P.S.

Spoiler

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

Give a comparison between a fully geared caster sorc and a fully geared stamina archer for frags vs. lethal and I'd be a bit more inclined to side with you.

And then while we're at that we can talk about all the extra defensiveness the caster gains just from picking magicka as a stat to invest into

My non crit Crystal Frag with +120 magicka over soft cap and +6spell power over cap is hitting for around 550-650 since the sharpened fix. It is the opposite of scientific but the Lethal Arrows on my death recap are usually around the 750-850 range and of course the 1200-1600 ones out of stealth as well.

550hp is admittedly on the very low side. Some NPCs seem to have insane spell res, the keep knights in particular.

Players I hit for 600-700 usually which is indeed about 150hp lower on average than what lethal arrows are showing on my death recap, before the Poisoned DoT.

I'm talking only against players and I routinely see sub-600 dmg crystal frags.

Maulkin

Erock25 wrote: »

show previous quotes

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Erock25 wrote: »

Thejollygreenone wrote: »

P.S.

Spoiler

Since when has ESOhead skill calculator ever shown an accurate damage tooltip? I stopped trusting that site for specific values in abilities long ago.

Give a comparison between a fully geared caster sorc and a fully geared stamina archer for frags vs. lethal and I'd be a bit more inclined to side with you.

And then while we're at that we can talk about all the extra defensiveness the caster gains just from picking magicka as a stat to invest into

My non crit Crystal Frag with +120 magicka over soft cap and +6spell power over cap is hitting for around 550-650 since the sharpened fix. It is the opposite of scientific but the Lethal Arrows on my death recap are usually around the 750-850 range and of course the 1200-1600 ones out of stealth as well.

550hp is admittedly on the very low side. Some NPCs seem to have insane spell res, the keep knights in particular.

Players I hit for 600-700 usually which is indeed about 150hp lower on average than what lethal arrows are showing on my death recap, before the Poisoned DoT.

I'm talking only against players and I routinely see sub-600 dmg crystal frags.

Interesting, I don't (blocked ones excluded ofc). Do you still use a sharpened staff and apprentice mundus stone?

Samadhi

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

show previous quotes

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

Archer's mind increases weapon crit and crit damage. It doesn't say anything at all about bows. To increase spell crit there is Twilight's Embrace, Night Mother's Gaze, and Wise Mage. There could be more. I don't know. The point is, those exist and they are comparable to Archer's Mind.

Miya, you're absolutely right, I stand corrected.

Perhaps you were thinking of Hawk's Eye set?

Spoiler

Maulkin

Samadhi wrote: »

show previous quotes

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: »

mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »

Varicite wrote: »

Lava_Croft wrote: »

Please stop comparing Snipe, which actually hurts, to Crystal Frags, which actually doesn't really hurt.

Crystal Frags hits for like 750 non-crit, how does that not really hurt?

Do you think Snipe is really that much more damage outside of a sneak attack?

The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.

These are screenshots from esohead...



Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719

However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:

1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.

The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.

You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.

Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.

If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.

Archer's mind increases weapon crit and crit damage. It doesn't say anything at all about bows. To increase spell crit there is Twilight's Embrace, Night Mother's Gaze, and Wise Mage. There could be more. I don't know. The point is, those exist and they are comparable to Archer's Mind.

Miya, you're absolutely right, I stand corrected.

Perhaps you were thinking of Hawk's Eye set?

Spoiler

Thank you Samadhi! I knew I had seen a set like this somewhere

Jaerlach

This is a nice discussion of crystal fragments vs lethal arrow, but you guys are leaving out the 20%+ range disparity. Base 28m vs 35m, plus other effects that modify range (eg 3 pc set bonus, etc), means that snipe/lethal arrow is effective both from stealth and from a much greater distance.

All the other things are the same, but when you get fragmented, you have the ability to see the caster (you may not be facing or noticing, but you CAN), and they are not that far out of range of many gap closers (eg many 22m charges). Snipe can come from 10+ meters further out without warning.

That has to be part of the discussion. It isn't a problem necessarily that snipe can do this, but it has to be included as a huge advantage for Lethal Arrow.

Maulkin

Jaerlach wrote: »

This is a nice discussion of crystal fragments vs lethal arrow, but you guys are leaving out the 20%+ range disparity. Base 28m vs 35m, plus other effects that modify range (eg 3 pc set bonus, etc), means that snipe/lethal arrow is effective both from stealth and from a much greater distance.

All the other things are the same, but when you get fragmented, you have the ability to see the caster (you may not be facing or noticing, but you CAN), and they are not that far out of range of many gap closers (eg many 22m charges). Snipe can come from 10+ meters further out without warning.

That has to be part of the discussion. It isn't a problem necessarily that snipe can do this, but it has to be included as a huge advantage for Lethal Arrow.

To be fair, I have mentioned that like 10 times so far in this thread

Bramir

But streak is annoying! Therefore, crystal fragments > snipe. My logic is astounding!

Nerf Crystal Fragments!