PvP reduced to lethal arrow
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Hehe.
Streak's been through two rounds of major nerfs already. And I thought Scales would be more annoying to archers!EU | PC | AD0 -
Baphomet✭✭✭✭✭
✭Oh my, logged in for the first time in a week, only to find that PvP is still the same mess as when I left.
Snipe is now supposed to be the stamina equivalent of dark flare and crystal shards, right? So why haven't they given it a 1.3 sec cast time and a 36m range like their magical counterparts? @ZoS - anyone in Maryland knows?- The Psijic Order
- TKO
- Dominant Dominion
- The Noore1 -
Pathfinder✭✭✭The Range+Dmg+Debuff+Speed if way too much atm which is why everyone seems to be using it. I understand the change was for PvE, but in PvP there is no good non-class specific (i.e. flappy flap) counter. A change to S&B defensive stance to include ranged weapon attacks is the most likely solution, or allow the Heavy Immoveable to absorb only weapon attacks akin to Light absorbing only Spell attacks.Main
Malfahri del Sol Imperial Templar (stamplar *new respec) PC/NA/Trueflame0 -
elausche_ESO✭✭✭Please make Lethal Arrow a 1.3 second cast time, with a 28 meter range. Also, give it a 2 second knockdown and a passive that allows it to be instant cast every 3rd ability.3 -
kijima✭✭✭✭✭
✭elausche_ESO wrote: »Please make Lethal Arrow a 1.3 second cast time, with a 28 meter range. Also, give it a 2 second knockdown and a passive that allows it to be instant cast every 3rd ability.
So nerf the hell out of it then.
You could wear impen, you could reflect if a DK, you could block, you could stack shields, you could heal, you could dodge, you could etc etc...
But no, your right. Nerf it. /sigh
Been here since Feb 2014 - You'd think I'd be half reasonable at this game by now...0 -
Durham✭✭✭✭✭
✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
The initial damage is almost equal at cap level if we take nothing else into consideration.
These are screenshots from esohead...
Snipe has since had a 5% reduction in damage. 757 * 95% = 719
However, that's not showing thefull picture. A few things to remember:
1) Long Shots passive, increases the damage by up to 12% of that.
2) The DoT of Venom Arrow adds another ~200 damage if I recall correctly. That alone makes total damage +20% higher
3) Weapon Damage is a lot easier to push well past the soft cap. There are many skills in the game which give huge weapon damage increase yet nothing that gives spell damage increase.
4) There are sets, like Archers Mind, which increase the total damage of bow skills while there's nothing comparable for magicka skills.
The accumulated outcome of all the above is that Snipe on average hits a lot harder than Frags. Just by Archer's Mind and Long Shots passive alone you can have an average 10% more damage before we even count the DoT and that's not from stealth.
You might feel I'm adding a lot of stuff on top like sets and weapon damage soft-caps, but the simple fact is they are very standard for an archer build and there is no equivalent for magicka build. No way to hike-up the damage any further than what you really see.
Finally, bear in mind that there are more skills to help you avoid damage from Frags than morphs of snipe (already listed). Again the proof is in the pudding. You can get 1.3-1.4k DPS by a simple 1x100 Venom Arrow rotation on a boss. You can do nowhere near that with Frags. Venom Arrow has more burst and higher DPS.
If it was a magicka/spell dmg skill, it'd have replaced frags on my bar long time ago.
Why range is stronger then melee... Thats the problem I have even the twohanded buffs can be on the same level as bow... However the difference is the skills you use are within range of everyone ... Bow can be done from a safer distance...
RANGE = LESS RISK TO THE USER
Melee = huge risk at similar DPS...
Shield is awsome however right now 3 archers will easily take all endo.... And They should be able to... However today out of the 15 players I ran with today 10 had bow..... 10 archers is serously is not fun....
PVP DEADWAIT
PVP The Unguildables0 -
Erock25✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Interesting, I don't (blocked ones excluded ofc). Do you still use a sharpened staff and apprentice mundus stone?
Haven't switched out my Sharpened staff yet.You earned the 500 LOLs badge.
You received 500 LOLs. It ain't no fluke, you post great stuff and we're lucky to have you here. +50 points0 -
Kwas✭✭
So nerf the hell out of it then.
You could wear impen, you could reflect if a DK, you could block, you could stack shields, you could heal, you could dodge, you could etc etc...
But no, your right. Nerf it. /sigh
Guess that settles the debate whether Lethal is superior to Frags?
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Xsorus✭✭✭✭✭
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If you're dumb like most posters and only focus on just lethal arrow and crystal fragments in a very narrow way that completely ignores other gameplay mechanics then yes.https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXpX7JMwRXtczc5GTrIYRIw
ESO and GW2 PvP videos1 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭xsorusb14_ESO wrote: »
If you're dumb like most posters and only focus on just lethal arrow and crystal fragments in a very narrow way that completely ignores other gameplay mechanics then yes.
He was obviously joking, no need to be condescending. If you feel differently about Lethal Arrow, we'd love to hear why.EU | PC | AD0 -
Domander✭✭✭✭✭
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no, that discussion is almost pointless.
also people are throwing numbers out there sometimes for snipe that you could only get by pushing your weapon damage (and stamina) to the absolute max, you have to give up some things to do this. It's a choice between a more balanced build vs absolute max damage sniper. The latter is pretty squishy heh.
Edited by Domander on November 12, 2014 10:45AM0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
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no, that discussion is almost pointless.
also people are throwing numbers out there sometimes for snipe that you could only get by pushing your weapon damage (and stamina) to the absolute max, you have to give up some things to do this. It's a choice between a more balanced build vs absolute max damage sniper. The latter is pretty squishy heh.
its the same for the numbers on frags. to push through 600(post 1.5) you have to heavily push for spelldmg and magica losing as much as a full dmg bow user.
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"1 -
suycyco✭✭✭
[/quote]
no, that discussion is almost pointless.
also people are throwing numbers out there sometimes for snipe that you could only get by pushing your weapon damage (and stamina) to the absolute max, you have to give up some things to do this. It's a choice between a more balanced build vs absolute max damage sniper. The latter is pretty squishy heh.
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its the same for the numbers on frags. to push through 600(post 1.5) you have to heavily push for spelldmg and magica losing as much as a full dmg bow user.
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Except that a full magicka glass canon will be very efficient in shield stacking (of course in a horse or without shield he will be a free kill) so a good player in this setup will still be very hard to kill.
A sniper glass canon has all in damage and 0 in survability (and he cannot even roll or block more since the roll is not a flat value of stamina but a percentage) maybe excepted the DK ones with their flap flap and insane stamina regeneration with their passive I dunno since I don't play DK.
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cozmon3c_ESO✭✭✭✭✭My crystal frag damage dropped by 150 damage since last patch, critical and non crit. No difference in spell damage and max magicka. I have not critical over 1000 in 1.5 where I was consistently hitting for around 1150 crit pre patch. I was not using the sharpened enchant at all. Also everyone now has way more hp cause of more attribute points, you have to be very skilled as a sorcerer to even taken anyone down nowadays. To me it seems crystal shard has received a stealth need or it was spell damage in general.
Lethal arrow vs crystal shard
Lethal arrow is near invisible where crystal shard is flashy and need to work to get that instacast.
LA hits for 200 more then Crystal shard when I'm maxing shard dps with damage buffs.
LA has a healing debuff with longest range in the game, wtf?
LA hits harder then melee weapon users, again wtf?
LA sneak attacks stun you from all angles not just front, wtf on longest range weapon in the game.
As a sorc I'm seriously looking to hybrid a build to use a bow with the power it weilds compared to my only real class damage ability.
Zos you need to look at pvp balance at some point. Why has dk's survivability not been looked into yet? You know stuff like that.
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MiyaTheUnbroken✭✭✭✭.cozmon3c_ESO wrote: »My crystal frag damage dropped by 150 damage since last patch, critical and non crit. No difference in spell damage and max magicka. I have not critical over 1000 in 1.5 where I was consistently hitting for around 1150 crit pre patch. I was not using the sharpened enchant at all. Also everyone now has way more hp cause of more attribute points, you have to be very skilled as a sorcerer to even taken anyone down nowadays. To me it seems crystal shard has received a stealth need or it was spell damage in general.
Lethal arrow vs crystal shard
Lethal arrow is near invisible where crystal shard is flashy and need to work to get that instacast.
LA hits for 200 more then Crystal shard when I'm maxing shard dps with damage buffs.
LA has a healing debuff with longest range in the game, wtf?
LA hits harder then melee weapon users, again wtf?
LA sneak attacks stun you from all angles not just front, wtf on longest range weapon in the game.
As a sorc I'm seriously looking to hybrid a build to use a bow with the power it weilds compared to my only real class damage ability.
Zos you need to look at pvp balance at some point. Why has dk's survivability not been looked into yet? You know stuff like that.
Lethal arrow only stuns if you are sneaking, which is true of any attack from stealth.
And I'm not trying to be a *** here, I am earnestly asking, why is everyone comparing snipe to crystal frags? One is a class skill, one is a weapon skill available to everyone. One is magicka, one is stamina. I just really don't understand why you're all comparing them as evidence for why snipe should be nerfed.0 -
Kypho✭✭✭✭I just want to applaud the brilliant mind (yes, it has actually been verified that there is only one person doing skill balance at ZOS) that decided to push through the changes to snipe.
- It takes less time to cast than its magical counterparts dark flare and crystal shards.
- It can deal way more damage than its aforementioned counterparts (thanks to the inflated weapon damage soft cap)
- It can be used at much greater distance than other ranged attacks.
- It can be animation cancelled and partly "block-casted"
- It can be used as a sneak attack.
- There are no innate resistances to its morph lethal arrow which deals poison damage.
Good work!
I bet you are a DK or an OPlar. forever blocker, or jabspammer blazespammer. Those classes can prebuff themself to avoid to get ganked, but 90% that they dont. They favor their OP stuff to get advantage, and complain if they fail.
So which one of the OP classes are you?
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: ».
Lethal arrow only stuns if you are sneaking, which is true of any attack from stealth.
And I'm not trying to be a *** here, I am earnestly asking, why is everyone comparing snipe to crystal frags? One is a class skill, one is a weapon skill available to everyone. One is magicka, one is stamina. I just really don't understand why you're all comparing them as evidence for why snipe should be nerfed.
It's probably because I compared them, but I was honestly trying to be a lot more general about it. I was saying that you deal w/ Lethal Arrow pretty much the same way that you would Frags.
I certainly didn't mean to turn this thread into an in-depth analysis of the differences between the two. Frags was simply the closest analog that I thought of off the top of my head for a ranged ability that hits hard and has a couple nice secondary effects.0 -
Tankqull✭✭✭✭✭
✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: ».
Lethal arrow only stuns if you are sneaking, which is true of any attack from stealth.
And I'm not trying to be a *** here, I am earnestly asking, why is everyone comparing snipe to crystal frags? One is a class skill, one is a weapon skill available to everyone. One is magicka, one is stamina. I just really don't understand why you're all comparing them as evidence for why snipe should be nerfed.
only a few "physical" attacks do so, with snipe beeing on of them, while its highly arguable why it should do so when having all the other side effects of that attack in mind.
or from the other side why ain't darkflare and crystal shard(cc time beeing extended) as comparable skills?
spelling and grammar errors are free to be abused
Sallington wrote: »Anything useful that players are wanting added into the game all fall under the category of "Yer ruinin my 'mersion!"0 -
Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MiyaTheUnbroken wrote: ».
Lethal arrow only stuns if you are sneaking, which is true of any attack from stealth.
And I'm not trying to be a *** here, I am earnestly asking, why is everyone comparing snipe to crystal frags? One is a class skill, one is a weapon skill available to everyone. One is magicka, one is stamina. I just really don't understand why you're all comparing them as evidence for why snipe should be nerfed.
It's not about Frags. Frags has somehow been picked out in this conversation as the closest (in terms of overall strength) ranged heavy hitter in the game.
My core argument has been that since the changes, Snipe (and moprhs) not only has the biggest burst damage out of all ranged abilities in the game, but it also has the highest DPS and fewer ways to be countered than any other ranged ability.
As such it feels too strong atm. Not bows in general (which I like seeing in PvP and trials) but Snipe, in particular.EU | PC | AD0 -
Nacario✭✭✭I rarely comment on such posts but I just cant hold my breath.. or my fingers anymore.
The amount of silly in this thread is overwhelming. I see even some comparing lethal arrow to crystal shards, which is weapon ability comparizon vs class ability.
The bow stands out as the supreme range, it has its own role in a siege, an own identity to spice up the otherwise zergy-aoe mentality cyrodiil. Same way staff excell at AoE, but no none complains about that. If I were to make a bet it feels like many of the magica users in here running around spamming impulse are upset because they got outranged.
The strength of the bow is the suprise, but take away that then the bow user is squish 1v1. A competent bow user dont even have aoe on his bar, making his aoe non existant in a fight, let alone defensives a magica user often have with resto staff synergy.
People cry for nerfs and want to equalize abilities instead of looking for workarounds. You should be vary if developers starts to listen to such outcry because itll dumb the gameplay down and take away individualism. Just take a look at a certain top 10+ yr old mmorpg out there, all the classes can do pretty much the same, it's stale.1 -
Bramir✭✭✭✭nacario1989neb18_ESO wrote: »I rarely comment on such posts but I just cant hold my breath.. or my fingers anymore.
The amount of silly in this thread is overwhelming. I see even some comparing lethal arrow to crystal shards, which is weapon ability comparizon vs class ability.
The bow stands out as the supreme range, it has its own role in a siege, an own identity to spice up the otherwise zergy-aoe mentality cyrodiil. Same way staff excell at AoE, but no none complains about that. If I were to make a bet it feels like many of the magica users in here running around spamming impulse are upset because they got outranged.
The strength of the bow is the suprise, but take away that then the bow user is squish 1v1. A competent bow user dont even have aoe on his bar, making his aoe non existant in a fight, let alone defensives a magica user often have with resto staff synergy.
People cry for nerfs and want to equalize abilities instead of looking for workarounds. You should be vary if developers starts to listen to such outcry because itll dumb the gameplay down and take away individualism. Just take a look at a certain top 10+ yr old mmorpg out there, all the classes can do pretty much the same, it's stale.
So you are saying that bows should be the strongest weapon in every way, because destruction staff used to be the best for zergballing? You realize this is a logical fallacy, right? And that it is normal and necessary to balance skills for a game like this, especially for pvp?
The problem is not that snipe is better than crystal shards, which it clearly is. The problem is that snipe (and by extension bows) are better than every single weapon in the game for dps, including the ones that they outrange by 25 meters.
And regarding individualism, I really had to laugh. If bows are left the way they are, there will be nothing but bow users in a few weeks.
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Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you are saying that bows should be the strongest weapon in every way, because destruction staff used to be the best for zergballing? You realize this is a logical fallacy, right? And that it is normal and necessary to balance skills for a game like this, especially for pvp?
It's not the strongest weapon in every way, stop exaggerating. It is, however, a strong choice now whereas before it was only a choice if you wanted to gank, and after the opener it was the worst weapon you could be holding.The problem is not that snipe is better than crystal shards, which it clearly is. The problem is that snipe (and by extension bows) are better than every single weapon in the game for dps, including the ones that they outrange by 25 meters.
As opposed to Destro staff which has an almost laughably non-existent resource cost for single-target dps and (still) the best AoE capability in the game?
Is that what you're saying?
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Bramir✭✭✭✭
It's not the strongest weapon in every way, stop exaggerating. It is, however, a strong choice now whereas before it was only a choice if you wanted to gank, and after the opener it was the worst weapon you could be holding.
As opposed to Destro staff which has an almost laughably non-existent resource cost for single-target dps and (still) the best AoE capability in the game?
Is that what you're saying?
Sorry, but equal or greater damage than other weapons + better range = better weapon. Stop minimizing it.
Anyone still trying to use pulsar in PvP is learning a hard math lesson about just how big a reduction 2 meters is to the radius. This has been balanced, just like bows need to be.
I challenge you to kill someone with any semblance of self healing and magic defense with crushing shock spam right now. It just isn't working like it did a couple weeks ago...
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭If you think snipe is so great, equip a bow. Everyone can use a bow.
Remember when all the people were complaining about stamina builds being completely sub-par and some numbnuts were saying "you should all just put light armor on and equip a staff, everyone can equip light and staff"?
Yeah, don't be that guy.
This is not a generic complain about bows and it's not to distract from the fact that stamina builds still need a little bit more work. It's simply pointing out one particular skill is currently offering too much.Edited by Maulkin on November 12, 2014 4:33PMEU | PC | AD0 -
Agrippa_Invisus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭mike.gaziotisb16_ESO wrote: »
Remember when all the people were complaining about stamina builds being completely sub-par and some numbnuts were saying "you should all just put light armor on and equip a staff, everyone can equip light and staff"?
Yeah, don't be that guy.
This is not a generic complain about bows and it's not to distract from the fact that stamina builds still need a little bit more work. It's simply pointing out one particular skill is currently offering too much.
Or perhaps it's that people are suffering heavily for accepting a weakness (squishy armor) to have more powerful magicka capabilities.
I've strapped on the HA and walked out there in a defensive build (but with Dual Wield bar for AOE), and just walked through multiple sniper attacks simultaneously. Even the ones that got past wings (due to lag, bugginess, or my missing a recast) could barely dent me.
Wear LA, be squishy. Tradeoffs.Agrippa Invisus / Indominus / Inprimis / Inviolatus
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Former Emperor of Bloodthorn and Vivec
For Sweetrolls! FOR FIMIAN!3 -
Varicite✭✭✭✭✭
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Sorry, but equal or greater damage than other weapons + better range = better weapon. Stop minimizing it.
Anyone still trying to use pulsar in PvP is learning a hard math lesson about just how big a reduction 2 meters is to the radius. This has been balanced, just like bows need to be.
I challenge you to kill someone with any semblance of self healing and magic defense with crushing shock spam right now. It just isn't working like it did a couple weeks ago...
Well, I don't run destro staff in PvP on any of my characters. I wouldn't think it would have been worth it a couple weeks ago either outside of AoE zerging, which I tend to avoid due to lag. : P
As for the strength of the weapon, I take into account its versatility as well as its dps. There are obviously much better choices for PvP depending on your build, like 1H&S for defensives, resto / destro synergizes much better w/ builds using class abilities, CC capabilities, etc.
But yeah, Snipe is the highest damage ranged spammable ability right now, which is what I assumed it was always supposed to be.
Resto has its niche, it's the healing weapon. Destro is best for AoE and has ridiculous sustain and up until now, the highest single-target dps in the game.
Bow's niche was... what, exactly? Worse single-target and worse AoE than destro, worse sustain than destro, worse synergy w/ class abilities than either staff, and no heals? Its niche was ganking dudes in PvP and then running away if they didn't die in the opener?
I guess I'm just not really seeing why bows can't be good at single-target dps (and pretty much nothing else) when Destro has reigned supreme in every regard (except for defense) since launch.0 -
Nala_✭✭✭✭no one here would be complaining about lethal arrow if it didnt have a healing debuff, let alone one that stacks on top of itself to 0% healing.2
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Maulkin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Agrippa_Invisus wrote: »
Or perhaps it's that people are suffering heavily for accepting a weakness (squishy armor) to have more powerful magicka capabilities.
I've strapped on the HA and walked out there in a defensive build (but with Dual Wield bar for AOE), and just walked through multiple sniper attacks simultaneously. Even the ones that got past wings (due to lag, bugginess, or my missing a recast) could barely dent me.
Wear LA, be squishy. Tradeoffs.
Or perhaps it isn't and you can stop harping on about your Heavy Armour? You post is not mentioning or arguing against any of the arguments presented so far. Add some content please.Edited by Maulkin on November 12, 2014 4:43PMEU | PC | AD0
