Rapid gear decay

UrQuan

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

After thoroughly testing the armor decay system, we found that everything is working as it was designed. However, we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended, and we will continue to investigate those situations. We’ve also seen your feedback and do agree with you that the durability was too severe under some conditions, such as while you’re playing in a group, and are testing these changes on the PTS now.

Thanks @ZOS_GinaBruno that makes a lot of sense.

Anarchos404

Well that's it then...

Thanks for the answer I guess but...
It still changes nothing, if we really loose durability from "gaining exp" something, somewhere along the initial game crunching went terribly wrong.

Loosing durability from (1) Dying, (2) Getting hit and (3) to some degree wear and tear normal usage is just fine.

But actually from gaining exp?
Exploration? Crafting? Handing in quests?
That is...

UrQuan

Anarchos404 wrote: »

Well that's it then...

Thanks for the answer I guess but...
It still changes nothing, if we really loose durability from "gaining exp" something, somewhere along the initial game crunching went terribly wrong.

Loosing durability from (1) Dying, (2) Getting hit and (3) to some degree wear and tear normal usage is just fine.

But actually from gaining exp?
Exploration? Crafting? Handing in quests?
That is...

From a game balance standpoint (ie. to make sure things are fair across the classes and combat roles), I don't have any fundamental problem with the idea of losing durability from gaining xp. I do think that should only apply to xp gained from combat rather than all sources of xp, but I don't have any problem with the basic idea.

Mujuro

I was actually curious about this, and did a quick test: I killed a single mob from stealth using "concealed weapon". It was as single strike kill, and I never got hit/took damage. My repair bill was 3 gold based on that single event.

vyal

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

After thoroughly testing the armor decay system, we found that everything is working as it was designed. However, we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended, and we will continue to investigate those situations. We’ve also seen your feedback and do agree with you that the durability was too severe under some conditions, such as while you’re playing in a group, and are testing these changes on the PTS now.

As more and more people gain levels and cannot adventure without losing money due to the ridiculous repair costs, you'll find what you call working as intended is in fact a thoroughly punitive mechanic that no other game has with such terrible ferocity.

As others have said, there's nothing wrong with item damage on death. That is a good system, and it can be even more punitive than what you have now.

But to punish players for playing the game? This is a terrible design, and you will be forced to revisit this issue again, guaranteed. I have played MMO's since 1996, this is my 18th, and considering the previous seventeen... your current armor damage/repair mechanic is terrible.

Sorry Gina, whoever you're representing with this decision? They've made a bad one, and they're going to live to regret it.

UrQuan

Mujuro wrote: »

I was actually curious about this, and did a quick test: I killed a single mob from stealth using "concealed weapon". It was as single strike kill, and I never got hit/took damage. My repair bill was 3 gold based on that single event.

And a 3 gold repair bill from killing a single mob seems too high to me, as a mob will typically drop about 1-2 gold loot.

Anarchos404

Installed the durability meter addon to keep an even closer look at when and where.
Exp gains seems to be the culprit indeed.

And I clearly see that we are getting punished for playing the game.
But as you gain so little exp per mob kill at veteran levels, in terms of total needed for next rank, the durability decay seems to once again slow down.

From 30-50 it was much higher as it was possible to kill a pack of mobs of 300exp each and now I get 42exp per mob.

starkerealm

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

After thoroughly testing the armor decay system, we found that everything is working as it was designed. However, we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended, and we will continue to investigate those situations. We’ve also seen your feedback and do agree with you that the durability was too severe under some conditions, such as while you’re playing in a group, and are testing these changes on the PTS now.

You are remembering that this seems to be account based? IE: players on some accounts are seeing radically different repair costs from their own party members?

EDIT: Or, was that an illusion, and the result of other non-persistent factors?

UrQuan

starkerealm wrote: »

You are remembering that this seems to be account based? IE: players on some accounts are seeing radically different repair costs from their own party members?

I figured that was what she meant by "we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended" but on re-reading it I now realize that she may have been talking about other things entirely.

methjester

Usually in the case of most MMO's I understand developers motivations. I'm all for making a hard, punishing MMO... but in some cases with this game I have no clue why they wish to make gear break in the gentle breeze.

starkerealm

Ur-Quan wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

You are remembering that this seems to be account based? IE: players on some accounts are seeing radically different repair costs from their own party members?

I figured that was what she meant by "we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended" but on re-reading it I now realize that she may have been talking about other things entirely.

I did too, but I kind of want to make sure. I'm still a little worried the issue won't get fully dealt with. It's probably just an irrational holdover from the week of silence on the subject.

Also, I'm kinda curious what caused this in the first place.

ShintaiDK

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

After thoroughly testing the armor decay system, we found that everything is working as it was designed. However, we did find that there were a small number of cases that may be generating more decay than was originally intended, and we will continue to investigate those situations. We’ve also seen your feedback and do agree with you that the durability was too severe under some conditions, such as while you’re playing in a group, and are testing these changes on the PTS now.

Super

Group seems to be the main issue.

Knottypine

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

After thoroughly testing the armor decay system, we found that everything is working as it was designed.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ Thanks for clearing that up. However, are you able to explain what the decay is based on? Is it actually the intention for repairs to consume a high portion of gold/loot drops from mobs? Considering most gold drops for me have been between 1-3 gold at level 23. And even selling the loot only adds up to a few hundred gold, although I'm researching some as well. After running around within one level my armor is requiring 500+ gold to repair.

I just think that this high cost promotes players to find means of obtaining gold other then what is intended.

The way it is currently designed makes it a long torturous process to save up for storage upgrades. I suppose if I had nothing left to save up for it wouldn't be as much of a problem.

vyal

I guess now the standard practice will be to adventure naked.

It's a shame, some of the armor looks pretty good.

drakuel1ub17_ESO

Last I looked repair kits were more expensive to use to repair your armor then using the vendor... I will have to test this again for my armor level..

I just do not understand the logic at times in these game design decisions with this game.. On one hand you want realism and avatars to gain skill as they use them and train into a skill, but on other things you just use it as some sort of artificial penalty system or some other stop gap to "force" a result on your player base..

Since when does repairing my own items do not have any real affect at me learning this skill? Hell I can craft full suits of armor but my avatar is still dumb founded on how to repair it!@!

No this whole repair kit system is another shallow gold sink and social gap stop, so you force players to run to town to repair or spend even more gold to have the freedom to repair in the field. That is it..

This is the real problem for me, is that the game design in some areas were like thrown in to hide or try and fix other bad game design areas of the overall core design... The only reason I see this being designed this way, was so you could have some sort of reasons to come to town and also to support the gold sink for the economy..

I just do not see why we couldn't of had normal vendor huts for traders so they display and sell wares, that would naturally flow people into town and commerce.. It is way more social atomoshper to your cities and towns. Also it solves issues you currently have on many fronts that you try and counter with artificial painful , unimmersive mechanics like repair kits that have ridiculous cost to them for the only use of convience and gold sink.

Yes kits should be in game and should be required to do a repair, but should be cheaper, but the efficiency of the repair and time it takes should correlate with my skill in armory. This makes the system fun and still achieves the same result, plus gives another neat benefit to crafting avatars.

They can also sell repairs in field, wow what a concept another social driver for the players and community only positive things in my opinion.

tipper709ub17_ESO

Working as intended? Please explain what the intentions are and why.
People have clearly spent a great deal of time exploring this and the results don't reflect good intentions when armor decays at the current rates and activity.

It's not a gold sink, it's a persistent gold leak.

ttwinklerub17_ESO

the only time Im experiencing it is when I die
even handling packs of NPC(creatures) or even bosses Im taking mostty no damage (I'll have to check bosses again - most of the time I at least die once til I figure out how to do it - I usually run solo)
- last boss cost me 39gp for repairs
-
I do get a bit from a boss but nothing of the order Ive seen other here get hit with
and mine does not decay sitting around - or while gaining experience
- either by crafting or going out to find loot

Bulwyf

Mujuro wrote: »

I was actually curious about this, and did a quick test: I killed a single mob from stealth using "concealed weapon". It was as single strike kill, and I never got hit/took damage. My repair bill was 3 gold based on that single event.

I also am seeing this. If you manage to kill a mob with one hit and don't take any damage back you STILL incur a repair bill. How the heck is this supposed to be considered balanced and fair? Not to mention that the repair bills are heavily skewed against any melee character in favor of ranged/magic users. To see the official response is "working as intended" is simply staggering. I have played MMOs since UO first came out and this is the only game I can remember that literally punishes you simply for getting exp.

Jirki88

If it's working as intended when you lose like 2% durability on an item for every killed mob, it's really *** design. Especially considering the amount of mob-dense quest areas where you basically have to kill ten-twenty mobs to move from quest point A to quest point B. Are you seriously telling me that I get penalized for not being a stealthy character that avoids combat in this game, ZOS?

grabbintrionb14_ESO

I'm AOE farming on my VR4 in blue armor, and it costs more in repairs than I can make farming even though I never die... As a heavily armored dragonknight I shouldn't have to avoid taking hits just to avoid denting my armor.

gothickaiserub17_ESO

Well I can confirm simply being in battle is the cause of armor loss (most likely to balance Ranged VS melee) to some extent also being hit hurts durability (Or possible proximity to enemy). Gaining Exp does not. Just hand in a quest and check, at least no durability loss for me any time, same with exploration exp. Being in battle with an enemy 5 levels under also doesn't affect durability.

Also I can manage my repair bills (although rather high, I do also largely focus on high quality Jewels and weapon and replace my armor (though I enchant my large slots (Head, Chest, Legs) and upgrade those keeping them in repair for a few levels). (Oh and I decon everything most of the time, just try selling your loot once and a while you make a ton of gold.

However I don't understand these cries and complaints about terrible design for repair cost. Yes a lot of your money goes to repairs, but the game requires you spend money in no other place (other then costs to sell items to other players, and those not actually expensive once you get a bit in to the game bank/bag upgrades). Since everyone has to pay for the repair costs then its simply an economy equalizer, are you upset your not keeping as much of your money as you want? Thats just the rate at which money is gained.

redwoodtreesprite

It certainly isn't just grouping that causes excessive decay. The cost of repair is too high for the small amount of time it takes for my gear to decay to the point where it becomes almost worthless to even wear. I am now wearing lower tier armor made by an alt, as the ore is easier to farm quickly. And as soon as the armor gets too low in durability, I have another set made. And I break down the worn armor for craft XP. No point in putting any enchantments or traits on any of my crafted armor, as it will become junk in less than one level. Sad that...

babylon

grabbintrionb14_ESO wrote: »

I'm AOE farming on my VR4 in blue armor, and it costs more in repairs than I can make farming even though I never die... As a heavily armored dragonknight I shouldn't have to avoid taking hits just to avoid denting my armor.

It's nothing to do with taking hits. The gear decays simply because you have killed a mob.

@ZOS_GinaBruno‌ - if this is working as intended then it needs to be changed. Right now this is a PVE tax - you get punished for every mob you kill. The drain on gold is far too much.

Make it so gear only decays upon death.

Guldendraak

mark2472 wrote: »

No it's definitely xp gained (when you kill a mob) that breaks our gear.

But it's not just earning XP that damages our gear.. As I've posted already.. I've lost gear durability just using a Way Shrine after leaving town to travel to another Way Shrine that I've already been to.. There is definitely a bug in the system somewhere.

babylon

Guldendraak wrote: »

But it's not just earning XP that damages our gear.. As I've posted already.. I've lost gear durability just using a Way Shrine after leaving town to travel to another Way Shrine that I've already been to.. There is definitely a bug in the system somewhere.

Were you in a group at the time and ported near a group member who had just killed a mob?

aipex8_ESO

It appears that you also lose much more durability from killing an enemy than from dying. Farm materials for leatherworking for a bit and I'm down to 50%. Go fight Molag Bal and die 10-12 times before I figure out a strategy to take him down and I'm only down 5%. It makes no sense.

babylon

aipex8_ESO wrote: »

It appears that you also lose much more durability from killing an enemy than from dying. Farm materials for leatherworking for a bit and I'm down to 50%. Go fight Molag Bal and die 10-12 times before I figure out a strategy to take him down and I'm only down 5%. It makes no sense.

Right now it seems to be a PVE tax. They seem (for some reason) to think we make tons of gold killing these mobs and need to be taxed per kill.

It would make more sense if it were to be a bad playing tax, and just get taxed for dying.

Guldendraak

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

Could you please let us know exactly which two wayshrines you used when this happened?

Hi Gina,

I believe it was Davon's Watch Wayshrine and travelling to Ashen Road Wayshrine (both in Stonefalls) when this happened.

Hope that helps..

Cernow

At least we now know this is "working as intended". It doesn't make it any more palatable though. Gear decay is quite simply out of balance with the whole flow of the game. It creates all manner of obstacles to enjoyable and adventurous gameplay and seems to achieve very little other than being a very effective (if unfair) gold sink.

This is not a L2P issue because it has been proved repeatedly that it doesn't matter if you block, dodge, stunlock or kite the mobs, it's the simple act of killing and gaining xp that causes the gear decay. You can play well or you can play badly, the end result is pretty much the same.

This is not a "all MMOs need gold sinks issue" because it's such an ill-judged, unfair and nonsensical gold sink. All it seems designed to do is drive players into the arms of the army of gold sellers. So much so I have to question the intent if this is "working as intended".

This is not an 'old school' MMO issue, because no old school MMO ever had this sort of gear decay or repair costs. Older MMOs like DAOC had gear decay, but it was at a fraction of the rate of ESO, you could adventure for a whole evening and lose less durability than you can lose in 30 minutes in ESO.

If this is an anti-farming measure then it fails, because all it is doing is penalising genuine players. The botters and farmers don't care, they just bypass the gear decay by running naked anyway.

I'm having a really hard time trying to work out how some devs sat around a table and decided that this sort of gear decay system was the right choice.

The_Drexill

It costs me 3g to kill an enemy, and he drops 2g. What is this I don't even...