Game DESPERATELY needs a common crafting materials storage bank, GW2 style.

Dyvim

Brennan wrote: »

...The best answer I have is to evaluate your choices. You want the choices but not the consequences.

Uh, this isn't the game of life. Figure that out. Do better. The consequences you speak of, like they are part of some grand, unchangeable scheme, are arbitrary. They will change.

So again, you have no answer to gatherer alts, the fact that those 110 slots are shared amongst all your alts, limiting them, after you buy them, that is. You also have no answer to leveling one toon into higher zones, even if it isn't solely a gatherer, or having toons in cyrodiil, where there are mat nodes you will need, so you have to pass them up because of the f'all hapless inventory system with its mediocrity and tediousness.

It is not just me that finds it UNSATISFACTORY. Of course that is a subjective measure, an opinion and many players share it, as is obvious and undeniable to anyone interacting with their guild and other players in the game where they can hear their feedback or to anyone who is paying attention on these forums. I am loathe to mention it, since forum polls are dubious in their sample size and quality at best, but out of 157 votes atm, roughly 60% of the respondents consider the inventory space issue will, or may *** people off enough to cause them to leave the game or become dissatisfied with it. That is not a trivial number. I don't necessarily believe it, but it is a good indicator of perhaps one thing - there is widespread dissatisfaction with the "inventory shuffle" minigame.

Krym

Dyvim wrote: »

Sorry, I almost fell out of my chair at this one...you list a GW2 "PROBLEM" as stack size limited to 250 in the JOINT crafting tab that could store 250 of every single mat in the game, which was accessible, for crafting, without having to go to a bank, to every toon on the account...and also, a huge QoL feature, you could deposit into the craft tab, directly FROM INVENTORY without having to go back to a bank in town...and you call that a PROBLEM??? If that is what you call a problem then the state that this game's inventory is in is a complete and total apocalyptic disaster of biblical proportions - and you are here trying to defend it???

Good grief, did you even read what you typed??? A "minigame" of constant, tedious inventory management is not appealing to many players, especially as other games have provided better systems, and players do NOT want to go back to more primitive conditions. This should surprise no one.

Between you and LadyintheLake you make arguments for change, inadvertently, that are just great and compelling. Keep it up.

I really begin to question your reading comprehension, or basic discussion skills in general.

in one post you complain the bank is shared thus less space across chars then you promote a bank with 250 item per stack with single stack slots (and that you could bank from every char has exactly what to do with the discussion about the amount of bank slots?). so you're saying because it's better in your opinion it has no problems whatsoever? oookay. you really should get that ignoring problem checked out.

your whole argument boils down to ZOS WHY U NO COPY THIS OR THAT FROM THAT GAME (completely ignoring everything else). what's next, flying mounts? hey, they ARE more appealing, players pay real money for them and as you said players want convenience above all else. win/win for everybody!

even more interesting is that you think the devs don't see that as well. either you managed to ignore that during your hissy fits or you actually think they're stupid.
if you really wan't to convince the devs you need some good arguments for them to spend the devtime and money on it (and no "waaah players quit!!" either, considering people quit for all kinds of reasons all the time, even for stuff the devs limited on purpose. which should tell you they're not creating a bland mess trying to appeal to as much people as possible *cough* unlike gw2 *cough* but have strict design goals and intentions).

it would also help to get a clue instead in incessantly hyping gw2's inventory AND ACTUALLY read what people post - because all this has already been discussed in other threads at length (yes, pls continue to make more threads about this topic, you might actually trick someone to think it's more important this way.).

some links that might help you:
http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/designing-an-rpg-inventory-system-that-fits-preliminary-steps--gamedev-14725
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/621945-mmo-inventory-discussion/
http://my.mmosite.com/2424376/blog/ritem/game_theory_inventing_the_inventory.html

with that I'm out, you don't really need me to make yourself look like fool.

kawazu874b16_ESO

How can you compare gw2 crafting and teso one. In gw2 resources are character implemented at low respawn rate, here they're world implemented at a high respawn rate. In gw2 there a many currencies, in teso gold's importance isn't comparable. The only thing comparable I've found is that cooking is very useful and awful for inventory

knightblaster

The thing is, if they did add very high cap crafting bank inventory like GW2 has, they would also have to add other balancing elements to that to limit the supply of materials -- limited professions (even back and forth like GW2 had), crafting tools that wear out and need to be replaced/upgraded per tier, and overall a greatly reduced supply of materials being generated from nodes and crafting alike.

The inventory cap now acts as a cap on materials. Instead of controlling it at the point of generation (fewer nodes, fewer mats from decons, requiring crafting professions or special tools, limiting what can be worked on at once), they control it at the point of storage.

Players find this very irritating because it is far from a familiar and common way to do it in the context of the sheer biblical flood of materials that this game throws at you. Inventory limits are accepted in principle, but it's the strict and expensive nature of them here when coupled with the flood of "theoretically available" materials that leads to the frustration. It's not that intuitive for players to not loot stuff that is available for them to loot because they are very worried about storage. Yes, that happened in the early stages of TES games before people either sorted their storage in game with housing, or outright modded it out of the game -- needless to say, it was not a very popular feature. In an MMO obviously there need to be some limits in terms of controlling the overall supply of items, but this way of doing it -- having loads of stuff generated/findable, but forcing players to leave it alone due to space limits that are expensive to upgrade -- was bound to cause a huge amount of frustration among the playerbase because it is simply not intuitive based on how other MMOs work, where one only very rarely needs to forego looting due to space, once one is out of the very earliest parts of the game.

The problem is that changing this would require reworking the entire loot/material system from the ground up. Right now, the system has very negligible supply limits -- mats (other than tempers, which have been kept to a much rarer table) are generated like fountains, either on the map or at the crafting table. A system which freed up space for many more crafting mats would need to tamp down the generation of those mats to keep the overall supply more or less constant. That would include gear drops as well, because in TESO, gear drops are essentially a crafting mat. So it would also impact non-crafters. Likely also other limits would need to be considered or outright introduced, like limiting crafting professions to a hard cap, making gathering of mats require a specific profession and tools, and so on.

While it's possible to think of them making that kind of redesign, it won't happen soon, that's for certain. And while I also dislike this design (I find it very frustrating to use this system as the cap on materials and crafting), it isn't realistic to expect Zenimax to just up the bank slots or just create a GW style crafting collection bank in a vacuum -- that kind of change could only happen if the entire system were redesigned, which, if it happens, won't happen anytime soon.

Personally, this has restricted my crafting play. My main now doesn't craft much. A bit of alchemy for pots, which is manageable because it has a capped and unchanging by tier (other than water) mat table. Provisioning is already at 50, so I don't store anything for that other than the few specific mats I want for my currently favored buff. I deconstruct some items here and there, but mostly sell everything else. Less aggravation, and less time spent managing inventory, but also less time playing the crafting side of the game because I don't like how it makes me play the game -- i don't enjoy it. So I'd also like them to change the system, for sure -- I just don't think it's realistic to expect a change soon, if at all, because it would require redoing the whole system, not just the bank spaces, due to the principal role that the bank spaces are playing in restricting supply in the game.

Brennan

grayssonb16_ESO wrote: »

*snip*

some links that might help you:
http://gamedevelopment.tutsplus.com/articles/designing-an-rpg-inventory-system-that-fits-preliminary-steps--gamedev-14725
http://www.gamedev.net/topic/621945-mmo-inventory-discussion/
http://my.mmosite.com/2424376/blog/ritem/game_theory_inventing_the_inventory.html

with that I'm out, you don't really need me to make yourself look like fool.

The forums are broke. I can only give you 1 Insightful or 1 Awesome. I can't give you both and I can't give you more than 1. The forums are obviously UNSATISFACTORY and I wonder how many people will QUIT because of the UNSATISFACTORY forum.

<Insert additional hyperbole here>

derpmonster

kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »

How can you compare gw2 crafting and teso one. In gw2 resources are character implemented at low respawn rate, here they're world implemented at a high respawn rate. In gw2 there a many currencies, in teso gold's importance isn't comparable. The only thing comparable I've found is that cooking is very useful and awful for inventory

That's the most reasonable argument I've read in this entire thread.

Draaconis

In GW2 everyone could loot each node so this is not going to happen. Also, you are encouraging everyone to pick up every pebble they trip over off of the ground and bank it.

derpmonster

Draaconis wrote: »

In GW2 everyone could loot each node so this is not going to happen. Also, you are encouraging everyone to pick up every pebble they trip over off of the ground and bank it.

I get the first part but I'm not sure I understand why it's so bad if people want to store a lot of crafting materials.

Dyvim

derpmonster wrote: »

kawazu874b16_ESO wrote: »

How can you compare gw2 crafting and teso one. In gw2 resources are character implemented at low respawn rate, here they're world implemented at a high respawn rate. In gw2 there a many currencies, in teso gold's importance isn't comparable. The only thing comparable I've found is that cooking is very useful and awful for inventory

That's the most reasonable argument I've read in this entire thread.

It isn't bad, but I preferred knightblaster's post.

Here is the thing, there are a lot of moving pieces...I really don't want to get bogged down in a *** for tat gw2 comparison, but it seems we are there...so...

Yes, gw2 had limited nodes, reserved, that were marked on the map. Alts helped you get around this limitation. They had tool gold sinks...which unlimited use tools again got you around this as a one time sink. They also had FEWER tiers of resources...fewer than 9 anyway. Fewer materials in general. You could only level two at a time, but you could switch, and level them all on one toon, and go back and forth at will, with a gold sink.

The bottom line for me is that you had, as I recall, three storage areas...acct shared mat storage, which was incredibly convenient as you could deposit directly into it from your inventory from anywhere. This rocked. You also had shared bank storage, and alt specific bank storage. I really don't see why this system could not work in this game....maybe the stack in the mat sections would be less than 250...ESO puzzles me in its limitations...you have shared bank storage, which is the same for 1 toon or 8 toons. There is no scaling, no private alt tabs, nothing. This is an obvious, huge flaw, or massive source of "friction", whatever in the crap you want to call it.

So in this game, you have no reserved nodes, that are not marked on your map (there are add ons). No tools. How do we know that this doesn't already balance out, or how much of a weight we should put on inventory "friction" or how much of a counter balance in other constraints we would need. How does the crafting resource reqs in this game compare to others? This game has an extremely limited marketplace model compared to the AH in gw2. The gw2 auction house was really amazing, tbh. ESO really REALLY skimped and punted here. Currency on this game is also radically different AND SIMPLER from the gold and gems of gw2 with its cash shop and conversions, as well. So we can store more crafting mats, and do so more easily...would you need to tweek other parts of the formula? Possibly, but are we to think this is not doable? No, nothing leads me to that conclusion. If anything, gw2 has a far more complex economic system, with FAR more features and QoL considerations. That is not to say change in ESO is trivial, but hey, satisfying your customers and providing features to make your product competitive can be a ***. Sux on it. That's why they get paid money...lol.

Brennan

Interview with Paul Sage, Creative Director of ESO wrote:

Q: Since crafting materials take up space in our inventory…Would it be possible to implement crafting bags for strictly crafting materials?

A: Our inventory space and bank space provides a much needed gold sink. Something useful to spend your money on. Currently, that friction is useful to the game, and removing that isn’t something I think we want to pursue at this time.

Q: Items for crafting take a lot of place. Will you implement an interface dedicated to crafting items like GW2 or Neverwinter ?

A: Bank space and inventory space are friction elements for the economy. It is unlikely we will have a dedicate crafting inventory in the near future. Choice is important.

Q: I love the fact that you can leave items in your bank and still use them for crafting. My concern is, I guess I horde to much of everything since I’m crafting everything, and run out of space really really quick. Is there away to fix this, or should i simple just keep selling my mats and make low level items to makes space?

A: I would say you are going to have to make some choices about what you keep and what you don’t. Bank space / inventory space is another limiter to being able to work on all crafting skills at once. It isn’t impossible, it is just harder if that is what you choose to do. There’s also a TV show about your “problem.”

Source

Dyvim

Yeah thanks for reposting something I read weeks ago, in multiple threads, that has already been posted in this thread. We know they want to inconvenience players by friction in inventory...they are wrong. I can say that as a paying customer that convenience of features can and often trumps what they are calling choice...but it isn't REALLY choice. It is friction, which means arbitrary, artificial limitations that require players to make allowances for a crap system. They are just trying to sell it as choice....choice is having classes to choice from, or weapons to choose from...that is choice that is feature rich. Making players put up with the tedium of the forced inventory shuffle minigame is not choice.

Couple of things about MMOs. They change. A lot. So the defense that something is good because some developer came up with it and currently defends it is laughable especially in the face of widespread, YES, WIDESPREAD player dissatisfaction with it. So claiming something is good simply because it is a given way now, ESPECIALLY right at launch, is idiotic. If we all had a dollar for everytime developers back pedaled and made substantial game changes, reversing previous statements and being forced to eat their own words, we would be gazillionaires....

Brennan

Dyvim wrote: »

Yeah thanks for reposting something I read weeks ago, in multiple threads, that has already been posted in this thread. We know they want to inconvenience players by friction in inventory...they are wrong. I can say that as a paying customer that convenience of features can and often trumps what they are calling choice...but it isn't REALLY choice. It is friction, which means arbitrary, artificial limitations that require players to make allowances for a crap system. They are just trying to sell it as choice....choice is having classes to choice from, or weapons to choose from...that is choice that is feature rich. Making players put up with the tedium of the forced inventory shuffle minigame is not choice.

Couple of things about MMOs. They change. A lot. So the defense that something is good because some developer came up with it and currently defends it is laughable especially in the face of widespread, YES, WIDESPREAD player dissatisfaction with it. So claiming something is good simply because it is a given way now, ESPECIALLY right at launch, is idiotic. If we all had a dollar for everytime developers back pedaled and made substantial game changes, reversing previous statements and being forced to eat their own words, we would be gazillionaires....

Your entire post and every other post you've made is nothing more than opinion and not fact and therefore does not hold up under any critical scrutiny or reason. I am done engaging in this discussion with you kid. You just keep telling everyone about how you're entitled to everything you want there Veruca Salt. You bought a game that you have called a "crap sandwich" and you did it so you could complain that it's a "crap sandwich".

Good luck with your crusade to get the game to adapt to you instead of adapting to the game.

Dyvim

I have repeatedly stated that the game, as a whole is not bad, in fact I have stated some PARTS of it are brilliant. You keep missing that...For the umpteenth time, the part of the game that is substandard is the inventory. I have given comparative reasons for that opinion, or characterization, based on competing products in the market place and 11 years of MMO experience as a player. Meh, take that for what its worth. But the most important thing is that I am not alone in my dislike for it...perhaps you can read the legion of other posts expressing varying degrees of dissatisfaction. Or perhaps you can't, just like you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that there is a problem with it.

When adapting to the game means mindless tedium that impacts EVERY PLAY session and outright destroys some playstyles, needlessly, then I find it unacceptable, as so many others have stated in this forum. But again, the game just launched, so they need time to get on their feet and address other issues.

See ya. Come back when you learn to read and to discuss, and can bring some insight or challenging debate. I don't blame you, after I shredded your puerile car analogy, which you couldn't even try to salvage, I would go and hide too. Weak sauce.

By the way, you need to learn the difference between opinion and fact while you are away...when you say my entire post is opinion, for example, when half of it clearly isn't:

Couple of things about MMOs. They change. A lot. So the defense that something is good because some developer came up with it and currently defends it is laughable especially in the face of widespread, YES, WIDESPREAD player dissatisfaction with it. So claiming something is good simply because it is a given way now, ESPECIALLY right at launch, is idiotic. If we all had a dollar for everytime developers back pedaled and made substantial game changes, reversing previous statements and being forced to eat their own words, we would be gazillionaires....

THAT paragraph is fact. MMOs change, developers stories change, and their reasoning changes, particularly in areas where players are complaining about arbitrary systems that grossly, negatively impact QoL issues in a game. Anyone, with ANY familiarity with the MMO genre has seen it happen, over and over and over.