Are MMO players spoiled by WOW?
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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If I thought I was wrong Gohlar don't worry, I would gladly accept it. But I don't think I am.
And to emphasize why I think this, I took the time to look up what the word sandbox game means. Here is a definition I acquired.
A game with an open world that is designed as a nonlinear, vast open area with many ways to reach an objective
Which is basically what I have been saying since the beginning of this conversation.
This debate is not as cut and dry as you portray it. And there is definitely room for my perspective without me being wrong.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:12PM3 -
crush83✭✭✭✭How complete is SWGEmu right now? About how many players are still playing? I may want to re-install for a bit.
Poke your head in on the forums over there and check it out. I dont' want to advertise it to much here. There is one play server, and the average population is between 1700-2400 at any given time. Note that a single galaxy when SOE was running the show was only able to support 3000 concurrent players at a time. Our software can support that many, but we've had trouble getting the word out since most people have written SWG off, and we aren't allowed to put out a true marketing campaign. Game is supported on donations alone.
@Jeremy
The problem I'm describing is that you are forced to only level up in Bal Foyen until x level. Each level is geared towards a specific set of levels only, and there's nothing there for anyone else.
Most sandbox games I've played don't really have a level system. They have skills which you get more proficient at, but no levels per say. There are areas with harder content, but nothing really blocking you from experiencing that content with your friends.
You won't see a level 5 rolling around with a level 50 in TESO. It hurts players to do that in ThemePark games. In sandbox games, there's no real sense of levels. I'm sure someone will argue that point, but the two games I'm looking at are SWG and UO.Edited by crush83 on April 18, 2014 6:07PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How complete is SWGEmu right now? About how many players are still playing? I may want to re-install for a bit.
@Jeremy
The problem I'm describing is that you are forced to only level up in Bal Foyen until x level. Each level is geared towards a specific set of levels only, and there's nothing there for anyone else.
.
But you aren't Crush. You can level where ever you want, so long as you are powerful enough to travel and defeat the monsters there. I could level my character without visiting Bal Foyen at all.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:09PM2 -
crush83✭✭✭✭If you can't hit anything in the next zone, then you can't level up there now can you? We are starting to stray into level-based vs non-level-based though.
It seems levels go hand in hand with themepark. That's because themepark games are linear.Edited by crush83 on April 18, 2014 6:13PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you can't hit anything in the next zone, then you can't level up there now can you? We are starting to stray into level-based vs non-level-based though.
It seems levels go hand in hand with themepark. That's because themepark games are linear.
I could have leveled my character without going to Bal Foyen though. So I don't understand your point.
I know for this for a fact, because I did not even discover Bal Foyen until I had out-leveled it.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:18PM0 -
Shimond✭✭✭✭Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
I think the horse is bones at this point. He either doesn't get it or is intentionally obtuse about it.
I wonder, do low level mobs give 0 xp or 1 xp? I've never checked. I know in some they gave 1 xp - in which case he'd be "correct" in saying yes :P0 -
crush83✭✭✭✭I could have leveled my character without going to Bal Foyen though. So I don't understand your point.
I know for this for a fact, because I did not even discover Bal Foyen until I had out-leveled it.
It seems to me at this point that you aren't focusing on the concepts that are being presented, and are instead trying to debunk specific examples that are being made solely to convey a concept.
Okay, could you have leveled up by skipping Bal Foyen, Stormfalls, and Deshaan completely?
And to be honest, the whole concept isn't about if the game design allow you to (could you), but rather if the game design makes it beneficial for you to do so (would you).
Edited by crush83 on April 18, 2014 6:20PM0 -
Gohlar✭✭✭✭
If I thought I was wrong Gohlar don't worry, I would gladly accept it. But I don't think I am.
You are and you only embarrass yourself by being so ridiculous about it.And to emphasize why I think this, I took the time to look up what the word sandbox game means. Here is a definition I acquired.
A game with an open world that is designed as a nonlinear, vast open area with many ways to reach an objective
Which is basically what I have been saying since the beginning of this conversation.
This debate is not as cut and dry as you portray it. And there is definitely room for my perspective without me being wrong.
You also said everyone was calling LOTRO a sandbox game, which would also be false. You are bending over backwards and using selective logic because you just can't admit you made a mistake. Seriously, it's sad. One of the saddest displays I've seen in over a decade of having stupid arguments on the internet. I'm not joking.
Edited by Gohlar on April 18, 2014 6:24PM0 -
SadisticSavior✭✭✭
Sandboxes that are skills-based have the same issue though. It is "levels" with another name.If you can't hit anything in the next zone, then you can't level up there now can you? We are starting to stray into level-based vs non-level-based though.
My Vampire guide - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99101/my-vampire-experience0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I could have leveled my character without going to Bal Foyen though. So I don't understand your point.
I know for this for a fact, because I did not even discover Bal Foyen until I had out-leveled it.
It seems to me at this point that you aren't focusing on the concepts that are being presented, and are instead trying to debunk specific examples that are being made solely to convey a concept.
Okay, could you have leveled up by skipping Bal Foyen, Stormfalls, and Deshaan completely?
I'm not trying to be difficult. Just answering you honestly as best I know how. Because I could have easily leveled my character thus far without ever having stepped foot into Bal Foyen (I am level 17).
To answer you second question, no - I could not have leveled my character to my current level having skipped all three of those areas you mention. But I really don't think a game must allow you to engage monsters in all areas else it's a Theme Park style game. But again, we are circling back to the semantics of what these terms mean.
I will admit to you that strength of monsters and quests do provide some linear strands in the game design if that would satisfy you. I have no problems admitting that.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:37PM0 -
Knovah✭✭✭he is touching me .. no I am not .... yes you are .. no I am not can prove it see.....stop touching your sister... I am not touching her...
Do I need to turn this car around and go home?
I wasted time watching this train wreck cause I was avoiding doing my laundry... now game is up I have another distraction...ohh shinnnny
* IMHO this is what you guys sound like lol .. just get out the dang rulers already and get it over with.
see Ya in game
Video games ......The only legal place to kill stupid people.0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
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If I thought I was wrong Gohlar don't worry, I would gladly accept it. But I don't think I am.
You are and you only embarrass yourself by being so ridiculous about it.And to emphasize why I think this, I took the time to look up what the word sandbox game means. Here is a definition I acquired.
A game with an open world that is designed as a nonlinear, vast open area with many ways to reach an objective
Which is basically what I have been saying since the beginning of this conversation.
This debate is not as cut and dry as you portray it. And there is definitely room for my perspective without me being wrong.
You also said everyone was calling LOTRO a sandbox game, which would also be false. You are bending over backwards and using selective logic because you just can't admit you made a mistake. Seriously, it's sad. One of the saddest displays I've seen in over a decade of having stupid arguments on the internet. I'm not joking.
Odd that I don't feel the least bit embarrassed then.
I gave you an online definition of the word Sand Box game that accurately reflected my point of view. I don't know what else I can do to show you that I am not the only one who defines Sandbox Games in this way.
And many people do refer to LOTRO as a sandbox game. At least they did back when I played it, because I had many discussions with others on the forum where it was called exactly that.
I'm sorry you don't like my point of view. But I don't find it ridiculous at all.Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:35PM2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
Probably not. At least not before you die of old age.
But I did not know you meant leveling all the way to 50. I thought you meant just the normal progression of leveling. Because I could have reached my current level easily without ever having stepped foot in Bal Foyen. That was what I was trying to say.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 6:41PM0 -
MercyKilling✭✭✭✭✭
And you think TESO offers a large open world? Because it doesn't. You go from Bleakrock to Bol Foyen to Stonefalls to Shadowfen, etc.
Once you finish an area, you generally aren't going back because there's not really any content left for you there. Yeah, maybe you missed a lorebook or skyshard...big deal. You're not going back to do Banished Cells, or camp out in one of the caves. You're not going back to participate in the Dark Anchors...
...but I go back because there are some beautiful, lush environments that I just wander around in and gawk at. I don't need loot or content to do to be able to enjoy the visual panorama that Zenimax has painted for me.
Why do people go to art museums? There's nothing there to do except look at pretty things....and this game is beyond "pretty". I use the words "visually stunning" to describe a lot of what I see. There have been many times in my game play that I have stopped what I'm doing...wander over somewhere and just stare at the scenery.
NO OTHER GAME in the last ten years of my life has encouraged me to do that except an Elder Scrolls title, and not even all of them did that much for me. Oblivion certainly wasn't "visually stunning"..Morrowwind wasn't filled with lush and colorful landscapes....but Stonefalls was. So was Bal Foyen. Auridon is simply breathtaking.
You need to break out of the idea that everyone plays games for the same reasons you do, or even the same ones that everyone else does....and their reasons for playing are -just as valid- as yours.
Me? I'll likely never set foot in Cyrodiil, because I'm not into PvP at all. I'll never join a guild again because I've had and seen too many fall apart due to drama and conflict. Does this make my reasons for playing any less valid than yours or anyone's? I don't think so. Why, you may ask? Subscription fee is my answer.
At the end of the day....yes. Because this is in part an MMO, there are MMO features in this game. Are these features "ruining" the game? Is some kind of "dumbing down" going on? That's hard to say, because different people have differing skill levels. Not everyone can be God's gift to video games....and you'll find this out as you age. Reflexes slow...sight dims...hearing fades...but you still want to PLAY....because a great man, far greater than I will ever be once said:
"We do not stop playing because we grow old.....we grow old because we stop playing."
The very moment you start caring more about stats and efficiency and optimal builds.....you start growing old.I am not spending a single penny on the game until changes are made to the game that I want to see.
1) Remove having to be in a guild to sell items to other players at a kiosk.
2) Cosmetic modding for armor and clothing.
3) Difficulty slider.
4) Fully customizable player housing that isn't tied to anything in the game other than having the correct resources and enough gold to build. Don't tie it to PvP, guild membership, or anything at all. Oh, make it instanced so as not to take up world map space, too. Zeni screwed this one up already.
Any /one/ of these things implemented would get me spending again, maybe even subbing.1 -
Zorak✭✭✭What do you do in a sandbox? You build.
This is the difference. It's very simple.Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
Probably not. At least not before you die of old age.
But I did not know you meant leveling all the way to 50. I thought you meant just the normal progression of leveling. Because I could have reached my current level easily without ever having stepped foot in Bal Foyen. That was what I was trying to say.
Omg Jeremy you are still here. Oo
Sorry mate, nothing personal but you don't understand the concept of sandbox or themepark.
It has nothing to do with queue or instances, or anything like that.
It's purely about creating things. Hence the name sandbox.
WoW was never a sandbox and ESO isn't a sandbox game.
You can't create nothing in ESO (no, I'm not talking about crafting). You just sit back and enjoy the ride.
At least you can pick which ride to go first, but you can't create your own ride, you can't level without going thru those rides, etc...
Just accept the fact that your personal concept of themepark and sandbox is completly wrong.
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Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭What do you do in a sandbox? You build.
This is the difference. It's very simple.Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
Probably not. At least not before you die of old age.
But I did not know you meant leveling all the way to 50. I thought you meant just the normal progression of leveling. Because I could have reached my current level easily without ever having stepped foot in Bal Foyen. That was what I was trying to say.
Omg Jeremy you are still here. Oo
Sorry mate, nothing personal but you don't understand the concept of sandbox or themepark.
It has nothing to do with queue or instances, or anything like that.
It's purely about creating things. Hence the name sandbox.
WoW was never a sandbox and ESO isn't a sandbox game.
You can't create nothing in ESO (no, I'm not talking about crafting). You just sit back and enjoy the ride.
At least you can pick which ride to go first, but you can't create your own ride, you can't level without going thru those rides, etc...
Just accept the fact that your personal concept of themepark and sandbox is completly wrong.
lol yes, I am still here. Though I will make this my final post for the day.
I already posted an online definition of what a Sandbox game is defined similarly to how I described it. You can browse upward to read it if you like. So I'm not the only person who defines a sandbox game this way.
This is not a situation of who is right and who is wrong. It's simply two different perspectives knit-picking over what I would consider inconsequential details. So better to just accept we have differing view points about this rather trying to convince ourselves one or the other is wrong.
Edited by Jeremy on April 18, 2014 7:30PM3 -
crush83✭✭✭✭I feel like there is some unspoken thread here that if TESO is somehow labeled a Themepark MMO, that means it's a bad game. I don't believe that.
I'm playing it, and enjoying it...for now.
Themeparks have an end. Sandboxes don't (until the provider pulls the plug at least).Edited by crush83 on April 18, 2014 7:30PM0 -
SadisticSavior✭✭✭
Ok. Give me an example of a sandbox.Sorry mate, nothing personal but you don't understand the concept of sandbox or themepark.
So you are saying there is nothing premade...no icons, no stats, players can make any model and any stat? There is no respawn of resources?It's purely about creating things. Hence the name sandbox.
The arrogance of the internet makes me LOLJust accept the fact that your personal concept of themepark and sandbox is completly wrong.
The definition you guys are using is not objective. It's no less arbitrary than his. You're not the "correct" answer just because you declare it, heh heh.
Edited by SadisticSavior on April 18, 2014 7:58PMMy Vampire guide - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99101/my-vampire-experience1 -
Tajich✭✭What do you do in a sandbox? You build.
This is the difference. It's very simple.Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
Probably not. At least not before you die of old age.
But I did not know you meant leveling all the way to 50. I thought you meant just the normal progression of leveling. Because I could have reached my current level easily without ever having stepped foot in Bal Foyen. That was what I was trying to say.
Omg Jeremy you are still here. Oo
Sorry mate, nothing personal but you don't understand the concept of sandbox or themepark.
It has nothing to do with queue or instances, or anything like that.
It's purely about creating things. Hence the name sandbox.
WoW was never a sandbox and ESO isn't a sandbox game.
You can't create nothing in ESO (no, I'm not talking about crafting). You just sit back and enjoy the ride.
At least you can pick which ride to go first, but you can't create your own ride, you can't level without going thru those rides, etc...
Just accept the fact that your personal concept of themepark and sandbox is completly wrong.
lol yes, I am still here. Though I will make this my final post for the day.
I already posted an online definition of what a Sandbox game is defined similarly to how I described it. You can browse upward to read it if you like. So I'm not the only person who defines a sandbox game this way.
This is not a situation of who is right and who is wrong. It's simply two different perspectives knit-picking over what I would consider inconsequential details. So better to just accept we have differing view points about this rather trying to convince ourselves one or the other is wrong.
Jeremy, it isn't about "different perspectives," you are simply wrong. ESO isn't a sandbox.
I apologies for getting involved, but definitely wanted to correct that.
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knightblaster✭✭✭SadisticSavior wrote: »Ok. Give me an example of a sandbox.
EVE.
You can pretty much do whatever you like. If you like to run missions for NPCs, you can do that. If you want to mine and sell minerals, you can do that. If you want to be an industrialist, creating your own markets and distribution channels either yourself or working with others, you can do that. If you want to trade the market (buying low and selling high, cornering a market in a region, playing all kinds of manipulation of the markets) you can do that. If you want to be a pirate and basically gank other players in low security space, you can do that. If you want to be a mercenary, you can band together with other players and offer your services to industrialists and traders who want their competition pressured or eliminated. You can build an alliance in the far reaches of space that builds its own outposts and space stations, allies with others, double-crosses them, engages in huge fleet battles or enjoys extended periods of peace through diplomacy with other players. Heck, there was even someone who specialized in providing services that would infiltrate other player corps (guild equivalents) with sleeper agents, who would play along as normal for months and months and then one day steal the corporation clean of all of its assets. When that happened the first time, CCP basically applauded, because it showed the nature of the possibilities that existed in the world they created.
That is a sandbox. You are dropped into it, and you choose what you want to do. There is no requirement to do anything in particular. Yes, when you start you need to learn skill points, but there are 2 month old players playing in the "hardest/most unsafe" space in the game, and players who are 6-8 year vets playing in the "noob/safest" space in the game. There is no real distinction there. People who lead alliances now are mostly not people from 2003 and 2004, but mostly people who came along later, in many cases much later.
There are no rides to ride, really. Missions for NPC corporations come the closest, but they are only one aspect of the game, and many players totally ignore them without any ill effects on their gameplay or character development -- they certainly aren't region or space progressive.
A sandbox is like that: it provides a space, rules, tools and the materials with which the players can make their own game. It's the opposite of following a path from level 1 to level 90 or 50vr10. Completely and utterly diferent.3 -
Zorak✭✭✭SadisticSavior wrote: »
Star Wars Galaxy, Ultima Online, EVE Online and many others.
sandboxfreak.blogspot.com.br/p/testing.html
Take a look at this.
And...google is your friend.
ESO by no means is a sandbox.
And you are the arrogant one here.Edited by Zorak on April 18, 2014 9:16PM1 -
Zorak✭✭✭What do you do in a sandbox? You build.
This is the difference. It's very simple.Can I level up to level 50 by staying in Bal Foyen the entire time?
Probably not. At least not before you die of old age.
But I did not know you meant leveling all the way to 50. I thought you meant just the normal progression of leveling. Because I could have reached my current level easily without ever having stepped foot in Bal Foyen. That was what I was trying to say.
Omg Jeremy you are still here. Oo
Sorry mate, nothing personal but you don't understand the concept of sandbox or themepark.
It has nothing to do with queue or instances, or anything like that.
It's purely about creating things. Hence the name sandbox.
WoW was never a sandbox and ESO isn't a sandbox game.
You can't create nothing in ESO (no, I'm not talking about crafting). You just sit back and enjoy the ride.
At least you can pick which ride to go first, but you can't create your own ride, you can't level without going thru those rides, etc...
Just accept the fact that your personal concept of themepark and sandbox is completly wrong.
lol yes, I am still here. Though I will make this my final post for the day.
I already posted an online definition of what a Sandbox game is defined similarly to how I described it. You can browse upward to read it if you like. So I'm not the only person who defines a sandbox game this way.
This is not a situation of who is right and who is wrong. It's simply two different perspectives knit-picking over what I would consider inconsequential details. So better to just accept we have differing view points about this rather trying to convince ourselves one or the other is wrong.
Jeremy, it isn't about "different perspectives," you are simply wrong. ESO isn't a sandbox.
I apologies for getting involved, but definitely wanted to correct that.
^ this
I'm sorry if you are too arrogant to admit that you are wrong.
ESO isn't a sandbox MMO.
So ???
It's a very nice themepark MMO. And by far the MMO I want to play now.
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SadisticSavior✭✭✭
Played Eve for years. You cannot make your own ships in Eve...you can construct them based on designs the developers already have in place. They use a quest system not unlike ESO, and as with ESO, you can just ignore it if you want.knightblaster wrote: »SadisticSavior wrote: »Ok. Give me an example of a sandbox.
EVE.
Nullsec means Eve has slightly more freedom than ESO. But by your own definition, it is not a Sandbox, because players can't do whatever they want.
(btw - I say this with the opinion that Eve is the best game ever made, on any platform, so far...so I'm definitely not a hater)
Except that they don't. Eve has Empire-space which is completely out of the control of any player.knightblaster wrote: »A sandbox is like that: it provides a space, rules, tools and the materials with which the players can make their own game.
Even in nullsec, resources are spawned according to the DEV's timetable. They cannot make their own ship designs...all they can do is construct whatever the DEVs have chosen to place in the game.
My Vampire guide - http://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/discussion/99101/my-vampire-experience1 -
Zorak✭✭✭SadisticSavior wrote: »
Played Eve for years. You cannot make your own ships in Eve...you can construct them based on designs the developers already have in place. They use a quest system not unlike ESO, and as with ESO, you can just ignore it if you want.knightblaster wrote: »SadisticSavior wrote: »Ok. Give me an example of a sandbox.
EVE.
Nullsec means Eve has slightly more freedom than ESO. But by your own definition, it is not a Sandbox, because players can't do whatever they want.
(btw - I say this with the opinion that Eve is the best game ever made, on any platform, so far...so I'm definitely not a hater)
Except that they don't. Eve has Empire-space which is completely out of the control of any player.knightblaster wrote: »A sandbox is like that: it provides a space, rules, tools and the materials with which the players can make their own game.
Even in nullsec, resources are spawned according to the DEV's timetable. They cannot make their own ship designs...all they can do is construct whatever the DEVs have chosen to place in the game.
Google is your friend.
PS: Learn not to be so arrogant.
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tarek✭there are no real sand box games
the closest I have seen is mine craft, and TESO is not linear either0 -
Greydog✭✭✭✭A Themepark is a game where the story is laid out in a predetermined direction according to a common theme and you are walked through each zone by the level of quests in the area. There may be side quests and other fluff thrown in to give the player a chance to get off the mono-rail from time to time. In most (ESO included) you are wise not to ignore any of the quests in an area unless you either like grinding or don't mind being under leveled for the next zone.
Sandboxes are the opposite. As they add themepark qualities in order to give some structure and lore for the players to build on. SWG already had the lore but the themepark questlines were added because players were overwhelmed by the scope of the choices present and wanted more structure.
As in all aspects of life, there are varying degrees in their makeup. Themepark and sandbox games are no different in that respect. I would put WoW well in front of ESO in this race simply because there are three different themed questlines you can play in WoW and you can ignore much of the content if you want to and still be over leveled for the next zone. Whereas in ESO in it's infant state you have one main line and some side stuff ..none of which you can ignore.
Where ESO shines over WoW is in it's active combat, it's more engaging quests, and it's many attempts to deviate from the norm. (two of which are failures IMO)
Do I think WoW spoiled anything? ...maybe for those hardcores who enjoy corpse runs and moving backwards with gear, money and xp loss. For the rest of us maybe not so much.
@crush83 Thank you for your efforts and you will most probably be seeing me reopening my shop on Tattoine after I inevitably get bored with this themepark
Edited by Greydog on April 19, 2014 12:15AM"I Plan on living forever ..so far so good"
Sanguine's DiscipleAsylum Amoebaeus ..A refuge for those who normally fly solo.
Message me here or in game for an invite2 -
Tajich✭✭Why does TESO need to fall into a category of either sandbox or themepark???
Because you are limited to a predefined area and nothing changes that until you meet predetermined quests and other fixed prerequisites; you are marshaled and cannot really go where you want and do what you want (ie themepark and level system).
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