GAMEBREAKING: Please nerf hirelings ASAP, or get rid of them altogether.

Mailmann

If it bothers you, you could always try not exploiting the system... just a thought.

Krym

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

In one year anyone who has been doing this will have hundreds of epic and legendary mats they got for free, that's on top of the mats they get grinding. For people like super awesome steven shidiwen who's already VR10 with full legendary on one character, it doesn't mean much. He already grinds out tons of legendary mats, this would just be supplemental income. For people who can't grind that much, it just means we'll have full legendary gear waiting for us whenever our mains or alts are ready for it.

by then max VR will have probably gone up a few times.

and how is it negative? in one year there will be so much legendary stuff floating around even with hirelings to hardly make a difference.

EDIT: in the end it depends how ZOS sees the long-term endgame. if they want to go the item-carrot method and the best loot comes from trials this discussion is moot anyway (I personally think people start to burn out of that, comparables for endgame have their advantages)

Warlordgreebo

Daverios wrote: »

WhiteQueen wrote: »

Something you may not have considered:

Only legendary heroes can become legendary crafters. Legendary means higher than level 50. Veterans in other words.

Only legendary crafters can make legendary gear.

And only legendary heroes can wear legendary gear. So by the time you attain full veterancy you'll have a right to wear legendary equipment. You'll never see level 1s in legendary gear. The system makes it impossible.

Something YOU may not have considered,

Even though it does require a high end crafter to make the item. It is real easy to find a crafter and supply the mats yourself that you just farmed up running hireling bots.

The high level crafter NOR the player has to put in ANY effort. Just kick back and wait.

If ONLY high level crafters were able to get legendaries from hireling AND/OR the player was able to get it from higher end PVE encounters this would not be a problem because then they would be earned and not 'bot farmed'.

The issue is their hireling bot literally never has to leave town or even be logged on to obtain legendaries.

In other games, where you actually can FIND crafters, it may be easier.

But with a game that has NO AH, and few good crafters.. and if you find them would have to sit and spam chat all day?

Not to mention I will be standing there trying to find a crafter - but pissed off because the *** that masquerade as devs.. didnt even bother to consider the player with respect to bag space.

Deamar

I don't see a problem. You invest 2x prescription to get 2x mats. You only can put on as many gear as anyone else, what are you going to do now? Sell? Another player can buy, he gets the gear without the skillpoints invested.

To ask to kill a possibility you clearly have profited off first, doesn't make it seem likely you have the best interest of the game at heart, but are protecting the advantage of your legendary self. How awefull that others can do the same.

Milanna

Daverios wrote: »

If you do not think this is broken and exploitable think again. As you overlooked the obvious.

Uber persuasive argument. You totally convinced me...

Milanna

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

It takes like 15 minutes to create 7 alts with 3 hirelings each. Then sit back as the mats come in. I've got 3 epics and 5 legendaries this week, for 15 minutes of work I did at the start of the game.

Congratulations. I am happy for you.

p.hurst1b16_ESO

I disagree.

Having crafters make the strongest gear that can be crafted is fine.

Do the endgame content for its own sake, for the achievements and titles.

There will be set items you might want instead. There will be accessories that you will want as well.

Why is it so hard for people to adjust to an endgame that does not involve by-the-numbers raiding for loot drops.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

deadcow92ub17_ESO wrote: »

It would be better if the RNG would be affected by the character's level. Example the higher the level the better the chance the legendary pieces would come in the mail from the hirelings. This would force people wanting to do this to at least level their characters. Problem solved.

This is a really good solution. Give a lvl3 player a 3% chance that they will get any kind of upgrade mat at all, and go up to 60% for a VR10 player. Or something, that will disadvantage lowbie alts from farming upgrade mats.

Monolyth

I would say that 1/3 Hireling skill level is the one that probably needs a slight nerf (ie. you 7-alt 15min people). Going higher than 1/3 is considerably more costly time/resource-wise. People who spend the time/resources to do so should be rewarded for their effort.

Laharl_Overlord

Milanna wrote: »

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

It takes like 15 minutes to create 7 alts with 3 hirelings each. Then sit back as the mats come in. I've got 3 epics and 5 legendaries this week, for 15 minutes of work I did at the start of the game.

Congratulations. I am happy for you.

Ty! Last night was my best haul yet. 3 legend, 2 epic and a bunch of blues. I seem to always get more legends than epics.
Wish my main who actually crafts was half as good as finding rare mats as 1/3 hirelings working for level 3 characters. Guess the hirelings are all level 50 vets, who knows why they work for my level 3 mules?!

jimball

I read through every single comment in this thread, and it all got very confusing (and draining) so forgive me if the point has been lost since the original post.

I currently have 1 level 19 character, who I'm focusing primarily on blacksmithing. I have 1 hireling, am weak in battle so I can't often solo dungeons and I don't group because I can't contribute as much as others - and I hate to be a burden. My hireling brings me rubbish mats every day, despite checking every single barrel, crate, sack, bookshelf, desk, closet, chest, etc. etc. I've never found a decent item. Every crafting style I've learned, I've had to buy from other players (I've bought #1-9 so far).

If there are people out there who are willing to go to the effort of creating 7 alts and blah blah blah (sounds like effort and not fun, not something I can be bothered doing), and this gathers the MASSIVE amounts of high end mats that people are claiming it does, I can't help but feel like this benefits me?

With no AH, and my horrible luck, it's near impossible for me to get a hold of any decent mats. If they're so easy to get, surely that means I'll be able to buy them off these people who are farming them with hirelings and actually be able to make gear that people will want?

If you want to restrict the people wearing legendary gear because it's a "status symbol" - which is a sentiment I completely understand, then surely there can just be a minimum (character) level required to wear it, and a minimum (profession) level requirement to craft it. That way only people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level adventurer can wear it, and more importantly (in my opinion), the people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level crafter can actually roleplay as a high-level crafter - The finest items in Tamriel should only be able to be made by the most experienced crafters in Tamriel!

Anyway, I'm no expert on this stuff (there may already be a minimum level requirement? I don't know, never had the mats to get that far!), what other people are doing doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the game, just throwing a different perspective in the mix in case it prompts a different train of thought rather than just "nerf hirelings".

SunfireKnight86

No, no- A thousand times no. I'm a crafter. Every MMO I play I craft. In 90% of them crafting becomes useless end game because all the best stuff is found, not made.

Let's look at WoW. What the hell is the point of running those raids at the end of the game to get crafting material to make things that aren't as good as the gear that those same raids drop? It doesn't make sense!

You're complaining because they found an elegant way to make crafting viable for everyone, not just the people who are willing to spend 10 hours a day doing PvE or PvP. Some people enjoy game like this just for the economics- That's how they play, and it's valid.

Punishing other players just because you want the best gear in the hands of a small % of only the best guilds is silly. Those guilds will already have the end game dungeons, Craiglorn, PvP, Emperorship, achievements, titles, and skillpoints. Let the pure crafters have SOMETHING.

This game MUCH less gear dependent than other MMOs anyway.

Xnemesis

You get much better mats from refining and deconstruct than you do from hirelings. Who cares if they want a lvl 3 toon with max crafting... they will never have access to the top crafted sets because those crafting stations are locked behind quest lines.

Qwickkill

I don't get it am I playing the same game? I invested in hirelings and I've got absolutly nothing from them. Pisses me off getting 3 pieces of wood every day when i could farm that myself in 30 seconds.

Blovis

The OP was a good point and offers a good solution to the problem, I would really like to see dungeon bosses drop some high level crafting gear and have no issue with hirelings from high level crafters getting the rarer mails

Censorious

Weird isn't it. Some people believe these things are absolutely game-breakingly OP. Other's think they are totally useless and a waste of a skill point.

Politics, Religion and MMOs.

neidzwiedzub17_ESO

jimball wrote: »

If you want to restrict the people wearing legendary gear because it's a "status symbol" - which is a sentiment I completely understand, then surely there can just be a minimum (character) level required to wear it, and a minimum (profession) level requirement to craft it. That way only people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level adventurer can wear it, and more importantly (in my opinion), the people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level crafter can actually roleplay as a high-level crafter - The finest items in Tamriel should only be able to be made by the most experienced crafters in Tamriel!

Anyway, I'm no expert on this stuff (there may already be a minimum level requirement? I don't know, never had the mats to get that far!), what other people are doing doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the game, just throwing a different perspective in the mix in case it prompts a different train of thought rather than just "nerf hirelings".

See below

WhiteQueen wrote: »

Something you may not have considered:

Only legendary heroes can become legendary crafters. Legendary means higher than level 50. Veterans in other words.

Only legendary crafters can make legendary gear.

And only legendary heroes can wear legendary gear. So by the time you attain full veterancy you'll have a right to wear legendary equipment. You'll never see level 1s in legendary gear. The system makes it impossible.

Even if a crafter is only adventure level 3 does not mean they are not craft level 50, though they are going to get all the skill points to level up their crafting to get better hireling mats while staying level 3 I have no idea.

Alephen

while i dont see hirelings as an issue, i am particularly against making results adventure level based. it makes no sense that some unskilled crafter that knows how to kill well (higher adventure level, lower crafter leel) would do ANYTHING related to crafting better than a dedicated craftsman.

i personally hate adventure gated crating system. let the high levels loot components, deadra hearts and the later motifs for example. but even those would be more skillfully crafted by a master artisan.

Laharl_Overlord

jimball wrote: »

I read through every single comment in this thread, and it all got very confusing (and draining) so forgive me if the point has been lost since the original post.

I currently have 1 level 19 character, who I'm focusing primarily on blacksmithing. I have 1 hireling, am weak in battle so I can't often solo dungeons and I don't group because I can't contribute as much as others - and I hate to be a burden. My hireling brings me rubbish mats every day, despite checking every single barrel, crate, sack, bookshelf, desk, closet, chest, etc. etc. I've never found a decent item. Every crafting style I've learned, I've had to buy from other players (I've bought #1-9 so far).

If there are people out there who are willing to go to the effort of creating 7 alts and blah blah blah (sounds like effort and not fun, not something I can be bothered doing), and this gathers the MASSIVE amounts of high end mats that people are claiming it does, I can't help but feel like this benefits me?

With no AH, and my horrible luck, it's near impossible for me to get a hold of any decent mats. If they're so easy to get, surely that means I'll be able to buy them off these people who are farming them with hirelings and actually be able to make gear that people will want?

If you want to restrict the people wearing legendary gear because it's a "status symbol" - which is a sentiment I completely understand, then surely there can just be a minimum (character) level required to wear it, and a minimum (profession) level requirement to craft it. That way only people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level adventurer can wear it, and more importantly (in my opinion), the people who have put the time and effort into becoming a high-level crafter can actually roleplay as a high-level crafter - The finest items in Tamriel should only be able to be made by the most experienced crafters in Tamriel!

Anyway, I'm no expert on this stuff (there may already be a minimum level requirement? I don't know, never had the mats to get that far!), what other people are doing doesn't really affect my enjoyment of the game, just throwing a different perspective in the mix in case it prompts a different train of thought rather than just "nerf hirelings".

Basically there's a lot of confusion with the topic. A very large percentage of people posting here don't understand it at all. They think because their one hireling gives them crap that 30 hirelings will also give them crap. That's not how it works when there is a chance for rare items. In one day I'm getting as many chests they get in a month from hirelings.

I'm pretty similar to you. I'm slow at leveling, only level 19 now, and I've just been playing very casually, I'm very busy irl. But I have been doing the hirelings for a few weeks now. If you have your main put the decon mats in the bank, it can literally take less than 15 minutes to create 7 alts with 3 hirelings each. With 3 hirelings on your main, that's 24 chests a day. You can easily get 2 skyshards for another skill point in these alts for 4 chests a day from each alt.

You keep seeing people say my "hireling sucks, it brings me crap". These people aren't playing the numbers. Once you have 24+ hireling chests coming in per day you'll see that you actually get epic and legendary quite often.

People also keep arguing this from a role play perspective, which makes no sense. How does it make sense that my own level 19 has yet to produce an epic or rare, but my 1/3 hirelings on level 3 mules produce multiple epic and legends everyday?

I'm not a person saying this is game breaking, just saying it's op. But the devs are fine with it being op, so I'm fine with it. I'll just keep reaping the benefits of getting epics and legends in my mail from 15 minutes of work I did at the beginning of the game.

In my mind it just makes sense that a 1/3 hireling from an unused level 3 mule shouldn't be able to produce legendary items, especially if my main who actually crafts can't loot those items yet. But hey, I'm in the minority, so I'll just let that stuff keep rolling in.

Daverios

Well the good news is after the dupe exploits this is no longer game breaking.

Best solution to dupe and this, switch game to use different crafting rares. Ie. Everyones Tempering Alloy becomes worth less and we all have to start collecting Tempering Primer or something new.

At the same time set it to 1hireling type mail per account per day ... 99% of game would be fixed.

jimball

Thanks for the info neidzwiedzub17_ESO & Laharl_Overlord, I honestly read through everything but my brain exploded so by the time I got to the 11th page I'd obviously missed some information!

Being a fairly casual player, it just sounds to me like it makes my crafting life easier if someone can sell me rare mats for cheap because they're getting plenty from hirelings. Obviously haven't gotten far enough to feel the effect multiple hirelings has on the game/economy, so I don't feel that strongly about it either way. I just got sucked in by the dramatic thread title, haha.

Singular

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Actually it was no work what so ever and THAT is the issue.

No, if you're running two accounts and farming for ingredients, it's work. You're not leveling fast, you're not doing quests as fast, you're collecting and then dividing your time between two accounts.

By all means, buy lots of accounts. I don't mind at all. Craft. Go hard! It's all good.

You're supporting a good game. Thank you.

Daverios

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Actually it was no work what so ever and THAT is the issue.

No, if you're running two accounts and farming for ingredients, it's work. You're not leveling fast, you're not doing quests as fast, you're collecting and then dividing your time between two accounts.

By all means, buy lots of accounts. I don't mind at all. Craft. Go hard! It's all good.

You're supporting a good game. Thank you.

5 mins a day is all it takes.

My main account is lvl 46 adventure lvl. Lvl 50 provisions. 37 clothing 32 woodworking, 28 blackmithy. The only reason I am not half done vet content is I read text and am in no rush. How do your levels compare?

Oh I also made myself an entire crafted set 7 cloth peices and 2 staves. When I hit lvl 46 cause why not. Running dual set bonuses 3% spell cost reduction and 5% chance to negate spell cost. It looks sweet to and ppl sent me tells within 5 mins of putting it on asking what my armor was. I will be on after 4pm PST today why dont we meet in game and compare gear and then you decide if this gives me a clear advantage.

Laharl_Overlord

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Actually it was no work what so ever and THAT is the issue.

No, if you're running two accounts and farming for ingredients, it's work. You're not leveling fast, you're not doing quests as fast, you're collecting and then dividing your time between two accounts.

By all means, buy lots of accounts. I don't mind at all. Craft. Go hard! It's all good.

You're supporting a good game. Thank you.

5 mins a day is all it takes.

My main account is lvl 46 adventure lvl. Lvl 50 provisions. 37 clothing 32 woodworking, 28 blackmithy. The only reason I am not half done vet content is I read text and am in no rush. How do your levels compare?

Oh I also made myself an entire crafted set 7 cloth peices and 2 staves. When I hit lvl 46 cause why not. Running dual set bonuses 3% spell cost reduction and 5% chance to negate spell cost. It looks sweet to and ppl sent me tells within 5 mins of putting it on asking what my armor was. I will be on after 4pm PST today why dont we meet in game and compare gear and then you decide if this gives me a clear advantage.

Daverios is right, it's really no work at all. It takes me less than 4 minutes a day to do one account. If I were so inclined to have a second account I would without a doubt use hirelings on that account as well. Legends, epics and all the other mats are worth a couple minutes a day.

demonlkojipub19_ESO

Xnemesis wrote: »

You get much better mats from refining and deconstruct than you do from hirelings. Who cares if they want a lvl 3 toon with max crafting... they will never have access to the top crafted sets because those crafting stations are locked behind quest lines.

Those lvl3 toons arent used for crafting VR10 set items... they are used to farm materials through hirelings. 3 points in hireling is all you need to do, and just put the stuff in the bank for your main that DOES make the VR10 set items.

Daverios

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Singular wrote: »

Daverios wrote: »

Shaun98ca2 wrote: »

As for the 7 alts getting MAYBE 1 legendary upgrade item what once a week once every 2 weeks out of what 10 required for 1 item? Good luck feeling overpowered.

What if I am running two accounts, as I am. DO I deserve an advantage over you? am I not then 'paying to win' ?

What if I buy my clients with stolen credit cards and run a hundred of them (as the gold farmers do)?

This is where the problem lies. It should not be a matter of how many alts you can make but how many you can actually level or actually use to legitimately craft.

If you're running two accounts, go hard. For me, that's an annoying amount of work.

Actually it was no work what so ever and THAT is the issue.

No, if you're running two accounts and farming for ingredients, it's work. You're not leveling fast, you're not doing quests as fast, you're collecting and then dividing your time between two accounts.

By all means, buy lots of accounts. I don't mind at all. Craft. Go hard! It's all good.

You're supporting a good game. Thank you.

5 mins a day is all it takes.

My main account is lvl 46 adventure lvl. Lvl 50 provisions. 37 clothing 32 woodworking, 28 blackmithy. The only reason I am not half done vet content is I read text and am in no rush. How do your levels compare?

Oh I also made myself an entire crafted set 7 cloth peices and 2 staves. When I hit lvl 46 cause why not. Running dual set bonuses 3% spell cost reduction and 5% chance to negate spell cost. It looks sweet to and ppl sent me tells within 5 mins of putting it on asking what my armor was. I will be on after 4pm PST today why dont we meet in game and compare gear and then you decide if this gives me a clear advantage.

Daverios is right, it's really no work at all. It takes me less than 4 minutes a day to do one account. If I were so inclined to have a second account I would without a doubt use hirelings on that account as well. Legends, epics and all the other mats are worth a couple minutes a day.

Lol I really feel we are talking to brick walls at this point. Le sigh. Why wont they just read?

As irony has it the recent dupes overshadow this but even more ironic where do you think these people got enough stacks to even discover the dupe in the first place. Vicious cycle.

Daverios

demonlkojipub19_ESO wrote: »

Xnemesis wrote: »

You get much better mats from refining and deconstruct than you do from hirelings. Who cares if they want a lvl 3 toon with max crafting... they will never have access to the top crafted sets because those crafting stations are locked behind quest lines.

Those lvl3 toons arent used for crafting VR10 set items... they are used to farm materials through hirelings. 3 points in hireling is all you need to do, and just put the stuff in the bank for your main that DOES make the VR10 set items.

Correction one point will do. The reason is because quality is not tied to the box but character who open it. Just have you main accept all the boxes from mail. Only 1 toon per account needs 3/3 in hireling for max chance in 8 chests per hireling type.

Odysseuss

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

Milanna wrote: »

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

It takes like 15 minutes to create 7 alts with 3 hirelings each. Then sit back as the mats come in. I've got 3 epics and 5 legendaries this week, for 15 minutes of work I did at the start of the game.

Congratulations. I am happy for you.

Ty! Last night was my best haul yet. 3 legend, 2 epic and a bunch of blues. I seem to always get more legends than epics.
Wish my main who actually crafts was half as good as finding rare mats as 1/3 hirelings working for level 3 characters. Guess the hirelings are all level 50 vets, who knows why they work for my level 3 mules?!

Cool story bro... Hey, if I had five guilds with max players AND all of them had the same setup AND they all sent me all of their mats then, I could have the bestest of the bestest bests stuffs!! So... obviously, we shouldn't be able to guild up either. But.. what if we weren't in a guild.. and I just had everyone in the game send me their stuffs!! ZOMFG!! Nerf the game!!!

Laharl_Overlord

Odysseuss wrote: »

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

Milanna wrote: »

Laharl_Overlord wrote: »

It takes like 15 minutes to create 7 alts with 3 hirelings each. Then sit back as the mats come in. I've got 3 epics and 5 legendaries this week, for 15 minutes of work I did at the start of the game.

Congratulations. I am happy for you.

Ty! Last night was my best haul yet. 3 legend, 2 epic and a bunch of blues. I seem to always get more legends than epics.
Wish my main who actually crafts was half as good as finding rare mats as 1/3 hirelings working for level 3 characters. Guess the hirelings are all level 50 vets, who knows why they work for my level 3 mules?!

Cool story bro... Hey, if I had five guilds with max players AND all of them had the same setup AND they all sent me all of their mats then, I could have the bestest of the bestest bests stuffs!! So... obviously, we shouldn't be able to guild up either. But.. what if we weren't in a guild.. and I just had everyone in the game send me their stuffs!! ZOMFG!! Nerf the game!!!

Lolwut, cool story yourself "bro"....

Alephen

easier to get mats means cheaper mats. so i dont see the problem. also if you can log in, check and collect mail, then open 48 consumables in 5 minutes, i envy your load times, so i think a bit of hyperbole there, but then the idea that this is gamebreaking is rather hyperbolic so perhaps you are being parabolic? (an attempt at a math joke there.)

the crafting system is easy, as you said, anyone can spend almost no time to level, and have plenty of SPs to shove into hirelings. there is no advantage because it is easy for anyone to do this. you have twice the chances of mats then another person does. that is because you have 2 accounts, of course you should.

perfectly fair. nerfing only increases the cost of the items, making them harder for casuals/non-dupers to get. you still would have 2x the hirelings, even at 1 box per account.