Subclassing Appreciation

karthrag_inak · November 20

Gabriel_H wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Way to miss the point. /facepalm

My complaint is players are not able to play how THEY want because the system so grossly favours min/maxing that OTHERS won't let them.

LOL. "others won't let them"? Who? Their mommies? The IRS? Santa Claus? Who is stopping players from playing how -they- want?

Gabriel_H · November 20

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Way to miss the point. /facepalm

My complaint is players are not able to play how THEY want because the system so grossly favours min/maxing that OTHERS won't let them.

LOL. "others won't let them"? Who? Their mommies? The IRS? Santa Claus? Who is stopping players from playing how -they- want?

[snip] It has been explained in very small words several times.
[edited for baiting]

Wup_sa · November 20

Gabriel_H wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Way to miss the point. /facepalm

My complaint is players are not able to play how THEY want because the system so grossly favours min/maxing that OTHERS won't let them.

LOL. "others won't let them"? Who? Their mommies? The IRS? Santa Claus? Who is stopping players from playing how -they- want?

[snip] It has been explained in very small words several times.

Best is to ignore the subclass defenders. [snip]
[edited for baiting & to remove quote]

twisttop138 · November 20

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Is your DK not hitting 100k in content?

90k is enough to clear any and all content. If your group doesn’t trust you enough to pull your own weight doing what you love, why are you playing with those people?

You are still not getting it. I completely agree with that sentiment, and view point, but that is not how the world works.

You have to recognise reality before you can work to change it. And often times the changes that you do bring about are very small and don't extend far. The vast majority of high-end raid leads will not allow you to spec how you want. They will min/max the group to get the quickest clear.

Not so long ago I had a back and forth with a YouTuber that ZOS had prompted. The video in question was titled something like "Tanks need this" - it was about Winter's Embrace and in particular Expansive Frost Cloak.

My argument to them was that no tank "needs" that, nor does any group in fact "need" it. And if the DDs really wanted it then one of them should spec it. There argument back was that would cost dps, and my retort to that was yes, but only to the tune of adding about 15s to a 30m run - that was deemed unacceptable by them and other commentors.

That is the reality of high-end trials. As I have already said - If you have a group who let you run how you want that's great, but it is not like that for most. Before sub-classing there were half a dozen builds per role that were deemed acceptable by most trial groups, but sub-classing has cut that down to one. The blame for that is on both the raid leads and on ZOS - their system is grossly imbalanced towards min/maxing.

I have over 3 decades of experience playing MMOs, and leading raids/trials. I do not min/max my groups - I find it detriemental to players in the long run. I know how much dps is needed to clear them, and as long as you are hitting that base number and you know the mechs you get a spot. I know how much healing is needed and when, and if you can keep people alive and know the mechs you get a spot. I know every boss fight in this game, and if you can hold a boss, position it right, and know the mechs you get a spot as a tank. Iam very much an exception when it comes to end-game raid leads.

Edit: Typos

This is pretty spot on. I would also say too that many of us want to do the best we can for our team. We have runs in my social guild, vet runs, twice a week where people can bring what they want. No requirements. We have a great time and a good clearance rate. The flip side of this is that when I do runs in my raid guild, I bring what I'm asked. I would also never bring a meme build to my prog group because I respect my team and want to do the best possible. Also, your point about mechs is spot on. I don't have quite your experience but I find that many things can't be powered through. Most players aren't on that level. Executing mechanics is the key to fights. High damage just makes it go faster giving less room for mistakes.

Gabriel_H · November 20

twisttop138 wrote: »

This is pretty spot on. I would also say too that many of us want to do the best we can for our team. We have runs in my social guild, vet runs, twice a week where people can bring what they want. No requirements. We have a great time and a good clearance rate. The flip side of this is that when I do runs in my raid guild, I bring what I'm asked. I would also never bring a meme build to my prog group because I respect my team and want to do the best possible. Also, your point about mechs is spot on. I don't have quite your experience but I find that many things can't be powered through. Most players aren't on that level. Executing mechanics is the key to fights. High damage just makes it go faster giving less room for mistakes.

I do run one raid where I have very strict requirements - I call it Step Back In Time. It's the Crag trials:
- Base game classes only
- Base game gear only
- Base game jewellery traits
- No subclassing
- No scribing
- 160 CP max spend
- I even allow Werewolves

i.e. Running them at the level they are tuned for (or as close as can still be approximated). The mechs have to be played, there is literally no way to power through them. It's great fun!

twisttop138 · November 20

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Way to miss the point. /facepalm

My complaint is players are not able to play how THEY want because the system so grossly favours min/maxing that OTHERS won't let them.

LOL. "others won't let them"? Who? Their mommies? The IRS? Santa Claus? Who is stopping players from playing how -they- want?

I think there's this idea that there are fascistic raid leads dominating their teams. From my experience, for people learning and teaching the harder content, they don't want to bring sub par builds into content because they respect each other and want to do the best possible DPS or tanking or healing. I fully understand that these trifectas were cleared with much lower DPS, I don't think people dispute that. Not all of us are on that level though and having higher burn helps kill things faster, leaving less time for your tank to miss a block, taking pressure off your healers etc.

That level of forcing builds is something, I think, that seems more prevalent in pug runs and stuff. That kind of toxic stuff doesn't happen, in my experience, alot in groups where we've come together to cooperate and coordinate to achieve a goal. In that setting, we all want to do the best we can, and there's room for differing opinions and discussions on what the best path ahead is.

twisttop138 · November 20

Gabriel_H wrote: »

twisttop138 wrote: »

This is pretty spot on. I would also say too that many of us want to do the best we can for our team. We have runs in my social guild, vet runs, twice a week where people can bring what they want. No requirements. We have a great time and a good clearance rate. The flip side of this is that when I do runs in my raid guild, I bring what I'm asked. I would also never bring a meme build to my prog group because I respect my team and want to do the best possible. Also, your point about mechs is spot on. I don't have quite your experience but I find that many things can't be powered through. Most players aren't on that level. Executing mechanics is the key to fights. High damage just makes it go faster giving less room for mistakes.

I do run one raid where I have very strict requirements - I call it Step Back In Time. It's the Crag trials:
- Base game classes only
- Base game gear only
- Base game jewellery traits
- No subclassing
- No scribing
- 160 CP max spend
- I even allow Werewolves

i.e. Running them at the level they are tuned for (or as close as can still be approximated). The mechs have to be played, there is literally no way to power through them. It's great fun!

This is great. I'm totally borrowing this for my Friday night fun run.

BXR_Lonestar · November 20

Radiate77 wrote: »

Hope everyone’s having a great day, just wanted to say thanks to the team for this incredible system.

Since it’s introduction, our guild has been able to help bring people through their first hard mode trials, with unique builds that make the content more forgiving than ever.

One such example being a Templar or Warden healer, and a Dragonknight or Arcanist tank, now having the ability to revive players still learning the mechanics by throwing on Living Death to use a Necromancer ultimate.

Trials have never been more inviting!
And it’s not just PvE.

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances, and although some skill lines do need love, it’s nice to finally have some diversity of encounters.

I see new, never thought possible, builds daily.
So thank you, ZOS.

I get where the pro-subclassing people are coming from, but I think you can appreciate subclassing for what it is AND understand how its bad for the game at the same time, which is where I am. I get that people enjoy it. The easy power makes high-end content more accessible. But any semblance of balance in the game is gone. Go into Cyrodil and every non-ball group is a tanky sweat group that is just going to streak and run away from anyone they can't dominate, so fights just become this cat-mouse game, which is really frustrating.

Players can now stack offensive stats to such a degree that there really isn't any counter to it right now. I'm speaking directly to crit builds, that can just absolutely delete you regardless of how much inpen you have. Even with maxed out inpen, you are only reducing their crit damage by ~ 35%, and subclassing has basically allowed players to stack that amount of EXTRA crit damage such that they're still doing 100% extra damage to you when they crit. You simply can't stack enough crit resistance to defend against that right now.

And almost every offensive build runs Warden beetles + contingency because of the emphasis on comboing and that is the easiest way to stack a ton of damage into such a tight window.

In PVE, while it is easier to bring people on the lower end into trials because the builds are basically carry builds, those builds are also in a pretty narrow band. What I mean by that is if you want players to experience endgame PVE and they weren't very good or had low DPS because they didn't know how to design or execute a proper rotation - subclassing has only exacerbated that particular issue because now they have so many options (and so many options are bad!). So the best thing to do for these people is to set them up with a 1 bar build or a beamer build (or both), and so you see a LOT of these builds now in endgame. The variety really isn't what you are making it out to be. The bottom line is if you want to do good, you basically make a cookie cutter build utilizing 3 of the 5 best performing subclass skill lines, and that's all you'll see, and they all use the same 3 base classes to begin with.

And because of the extra power, you get overland PVE content like Solstice. Nobody is going to be doing those incursions after the event, and they're a pain to do by yourself. But they were built around the idea that there are a ton of people around who are going to be dropping a ton of DPS, and when that isn't true, the content is going to be miserable to play.

So in the short term, I can see that its fun and appreciate it, maybe moreso for some than others. But at the end of the day, something that is fun doesn't mean its good for the game.

Four_Fingers · November 20

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Most Subclassed builds are reaching near that pre-Subclassing threshold of damage, if someone wants to make a crazy parse monster because they enjoy the inclusion net that creates, that’s not forced, that’s an active decision.

People do not force others into builds.
There is nobody holding you hostage.
…I promise. 😁

You've still got this backwards. High-end content requires a co-ordinated group. Everyone in the group expects the others to do their jobs.

There is no "Well, Bob says he wants to bring a DD that does 33% of the damage of the rest of you. That cool?"

If you have that, great BUT 99.9% do not. It does not work that way.

I love when Bob brings 33% of the damage as the rest of my team, because I know they are actively protecting the group, or providing necessary buffs like Major Expedition in encounters like Xalvakka.

You don’t sacrifice something, without gaining another.

If you need Major Exp on Xalvakka then you have bigger problems aside from ignoring the salient point.

Do you understand the vast vast vast vast vast majority of high-end raid groups will tell Bob to go away?

Bob doesn't care; he paid his bill.

JBNimble · November 20

A good idea can still have bad consequences if inadequately applied.

Talking about subclassing, not politics, or AI, or anything else what works the same way.

Radiate77 · November 20

A lot to read through.

@Gabriel_H I see where you’re coming from, and am glad that instead of simply complaining about Subclassing, you are actively trying to make the best of what we have.

@Wup_sa I don’t ignore Subclass haters. Though I’m also coming from a stance where I know the vast majority of people enjoy it and feel as though it has enriched their experience. At the base line, it gives you more customization in a game that is all about… customization. Do call us toddlers though, that tells me more about you than anything. 😁

@twisttop138 yes, completing content faster creates less room for error, but it also takes you out of the content. You can create a net for error protection by building for it, without turning the content into a race to clear. Which begs the question, if people are racing to clear content, is it designed well? Or do people just really not enjoy raiding?

@karthrag_inak I believe @Gabriel_H has a decent stance, and while we disagree on a few things, I don’t believe he meant to come off the way he did, which was why I gave him the benefit of the doubt yesterday when I picked back up the conversation.

@BXR_Lonestar we’re just going to have to disagree on the points I’ve already discussed at length. Anybody can hop into a Battleground and see 6-10 different skill lines, and while Animal Companions may be popular, I don’t see the skill line every match. As far as Cyrodiil goes, it has been a mess, I don’t believe many people take it serious, and that was before Subclassing. Most of us have played out our Cyrodiil adventures over the course of the last decade and are done with it outside of x2 AP events. So no I can’t speak to Cyrodiil, as I prefer my game to function and my abilities to go off, rather than chase around ball groups farming AP. For PvE we have different definitions of “good.” If someone does around 1.25x the requirement for content and can play mechanics without dying, that’s pretty good. I think you’re looking for the word great.

@Four_Fingers you’re spot on, he paid his bill in humor, and kept us laughing and enjoying the content the whole way, despite having low damage. I don’t run paids. Not knocking those who do, as there are quite a few anti-social people out there, who struggle to connect with others and for them that is their only option.

@JBNimble and yeah, I agree. The application of Subclassing could have been better, but what we have is not bad. I have had a blast. And glad you’re not talking politics in my thread because you’d be moderated to high hell and I’d feel bad for you.

SneaK · November 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

BananaBender · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

@twisttop138 yes, completing content faster creates less room for error, but it also takes you out of the content. You can create a net for error protection by building for it, without turning the content into a race to clear. Which begs the question, if people are racing to clear content, is it designed well? Or do people just really not enjoy raiding?

Because the point of every single encounter in the game is to kill the boss? Am I missing something here?
How is it surprising that people want to kill the boss as fast as possible, when the only objective is to kill the boss... as fast as possible?
Why kill it slow when you can kill it quickly, it's rewarding to push your own limits with a group of friends.

Gabriel_H · November 21

karthrag_inak wrote: »

[snip]

Still missing the entire point. /facepalm
[edited to remove quote]

Gabriel_H · November 21

BananaBender wrote: »

when the only objective is to kill the boss... as fast as possible?

That isn't the objective. The objective is to kill the boss within the necessary time.

Radiate77 · November 21

BananaBender wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@twisttop138 yes, completing content faster creates less room for error, but it also takes you out of the content. You can create a net for error protection by building for it, without turning the content into a race to clear. Which begs the question, if people are racing to clear content, is it designed well? Or do people just really not enjoy raiding?

Because the point of every single encounter in the game is to kill the boss? Am I missing something here?
How is it surprising that people want to kill the boss as fast as possible, when the only objective is to kill the boss... as fast as possible?
Why kill it slow when you can kill it quickly, it's rewarding to push your own limits with a group of friends.

When killing a boss at abnormal speed is in conflict with your build preference, does that not then become a choice?

If you’re willing to sacrifice your identity in a roleplaying game to reduce an encounter by maybe (generous in a trial) 30 seconds, is your identity truly something that matters to you?

I see these complaints from people who have already carbon copied Ry or Charles yet never from people who feel as though they don’t do enough damage to clear content.

lostineternity · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds.
So thank you, ZOS.

I thought you were seriously until this. Nice joke btw.

I would like to have subclassing in ESO but unfortunately there is no such system in this game.

twisttop138 · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

BananaBender wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

@twisttop138 yes, completing content faster creates less room for error, but it also takes you out of the content. You can create a net for error protection by building for it, without turning the content into a race to clear. Which begs the question, if people are racing to clear content, is it designed well? Or do people just really not enjoy raiding?

Because the point of every single encounter in the game is to kill the boss? Am I missing something here?
How is it surprising that people want to kill the boss as fast as possible, when the only objective is to kill the boss... as fast as possible?
Why kill it slow when you can kill it quickly, it's rewarding to push your own limits with a group of friends.

When killing a boss at abnormal speed is in conflict with your build preference, does that not then become a choice?

If you’re willing to sacrifice your identity in a roleplaying game to reduce an encounter by maybe (generous in a trial) 30 seconds, is your identity truly something that matters to you?

I see these complaints from people who have already carbon copied Ry or Charles yet never from people who feel as though they don’t do enough damage to clear content.

It's not in conflict though. There's different situations. Last night in my DB prog I bring my meta beam build because I want to do the best possible. In regular vet farming runs or vet training runs in my social guild, no requirements are in place and anyone can bring what they want as long as they bring a willingness to listen and learn. Those are the places to run the quirky interesting stuff. Prog night is meta night, not because some toxic elitist is forcing you, but because you respect your team and the time they're dedicating to work together. I can't imagine myself showing up and being obtuse and demanding I get to run a 50k DPS meme build cause it's not all about me.

Just as an aside, we have a retired elderly grandmother in our DB prog, she brings a heavy attack build with void mantle. She does 120k on the dummy. No one has any problems with that and we never feel like she doesn't pull her weight. She's able to bring that heat because of subclassing, which I think is fantastic. That does not mean that it doesn't have major flaws that need to be corrected and the skill lines balanced. Defending it tooth and nail and being blind to the faults is just as unhelpful as the other extreme. Not that it matters anyway. Zos is gonna Zos and what we say in here doesn't mean a damn thing.

Edit to finish thought

BardokRedSnow · November 21

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

I agree with you on how it was introduced, and their disregard for feedback of long term players. The newer players though overwhelmingly supported subclassing, as well as a number of jaded older fans. It is important to point this out because Zos actually does listen to fans. They do read the forums.

They don't typically listen to certain parts of the community though. From my observation of the forum over the years as a lurker and now participant, the loudest players here seem to be PvErs who enjoyed Vengeance, and certain guilds of pvp that make ballgroups. They're the loudest and most obnoxious, and thats what Zos sees here more than anything else.

I doubt they will change their direction until they start seeing loss of profits or major outcry, and there's really not a major outcry to get rid of subclassing, but there is for balancing it, and thats probably realistically the best you can hope for.

As for the ragebait stuff, I dont care, I do think though that if you want Zos to pay attention to the criticism and others also, calling stuff ragebait thats not clearly posted for trolling will only get you recognition and agreement from other jaded fans who already agree with what you think. Not gonna change anything. Ragebait in these forums ever since it was made a rule to warn and ban people for it potentially is being overused.

Aside from that small point of contention, I honestly agree with you, subclassing needs to be reigned in either by nerfing skill lines that arent a part of your core class, or simply buffing the player if they only use core class skill lines.

Amongst a few other things they could have done.

SneaK · November 21

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

I agree with you on how it was introduced, and their disregard for feedback of long term players. The newer players though overwhelmingly supported subclassing, as well as a number of jaded older fans. It is important to point this out because Zos actually does listen to fans. They do read the forums.

They don't typically listen to certain parts of the community though. From my observation of the forum over the years as a lurker and now participant, the loudest players here seem to be PvErs who enjoyed Vengeance, and certain guilds of pvp that make ballgroups. They're the loudest and most obnoxious, and thats what Zos sees here more than anything else.

I doubt they will change their direction until they start seeing loss of profits or major outcry, and there's really not a major outcry to get rid of subclassing, but there is for balancing it, and thats probably realistically the best you can hope for.

As for the ragebait stuff, I dont care, I do think though that if you want Zos to pay attention to the criticism and others also, calling stuff ragebait thats not clearly posted for trolling will only get you recognition and agreement from other jaded fans who already agree with what you think. Not gonna change anything. Ragebait in these forums ever since it was made a rule to warn and ban people for it potentially is being overused.

Aside from that small point of contention, I honestly agree with you, subclassing needs to be reigned in either by nerfing skill lines that arent a part of your core class, or simply buffing the player if they only use core class skill lines.

Amongst a few other things they could have done.

The bolded part above is perhaps the most concerning thing. This is where we are in the forums now though. Once upon a time, the sub forum for Alliance War was thriving, now it’s all in General and balance is being discussed by people with less than 1000 kills. We’ve lost so many people because of bad balance decisions that were praised by a community that doesn’t exist. It’s happened time and time again, just like in this thread.

And you originally said there’s always time to address it… maybe, maybe not. People are dropping like flies from Cyrodiil. PvPrs are/have left the forums too. Why, cause they haven’t been listened to in years and years and are overshadowed by threads like this one.

The original post was 100% bait not coming off that. Forgive me for still showing up and speaking up 10 years later.

Radiate77 · November 21

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

I can understand how subclassing could be fun for people. That’s okay. But, it was introduced with complete disregard to player feedback and made balance the worst it’s ever been, especially in Cyro. I would have rather fought a VR14 with my VR3 than fight a WardenSorcBlade. You replied to my first comment basically saying I was salty for saying it was bait. The OP posted this originally right after someone posted something negative about subclassing that they were in there arguing about. OP had all the right to make the post, that’s what the forum is for (to scream into an abyss). But it was 100% rage bait.

In the end, whatever, I don’t think the devs really pay attention to these discussions anyway. I’ll play ESO until I want to play something else. But the current state of the game is not glitter and gold, it’s an unbalanced mess and subclassing seemed forced upon an already unbalanced mess. They need to dive deeper than just “fixing” subclassing.

I agree with you on how it was introduced, and their disregard for feedback of long term players. The newer players though overwhelmingly supported subclassing, as well as a number of jaded older fans. It is important to point this out because Zos actually does listen to fans. They do read the forums.

They don't typically listen to certain parts of the community though. From my observation of the forum over the years as a lurker and now participant, the loudest players here seem to be PvErs who enjoyed Vengeance, and certain guilds of pvp that make ballgroups. They're the loudest and most obnoxious, and thats what Zos sees here more than anything else.

I doubt they will change their direction until they start seeing loss of profits or major outcry, and there's really not a major outcry to get rid of subclassing, but there is for balancing it, and thats probably realistically the best you can hope for.

As for the ragebait stuff, I dont care, I do think though that if you want Zos to pay attention to the criticism and others also, calling stuff ragebait thats not clearly posted for trolling will only get you recognition and agreement from other jaded fans who already agree with what you think. Not gonna change anything. Ragebait in these forums ever since it was made a rule to warn and ban people for it potentially is being overused.

Aside from that small point of contention, I honestly agree with you, subclassing needs to be reigned in either by nerfing skill lines that arent a part of your core class, or simply buffing the player if they only use core class skill lines.

Amongst a few other things they could have done.

The bolded part above is perhaps the most concerning thing. This is where we are in the forums now though. Once upon a time, the sub forum for Alliance War was thriving, now it’s all in General and balance is being discussed by people with less than 1000 kills. We’ve lost so many people because of bad balance decisions that were praised by a community that doesn’t exist. It’s happened time and time again, just like in this thread.

And you originally said there’s always time to address it… maybe, maybe not. People are dropping like flies from Cyrodiil. PvPrs are/have left the forums too. Why, cause they haven’t been listened to in years and years and are overshadowed by threads like this one.

The original post was 100% bait not coming off that. Forgive me for still showing up and speaking up 10 years later.

What are you talking about? 😂

Can’t believe I have to say the quiet part out loud, but no, my OP is not bait, it is not trolling, it is giving my perspective on a system that enriched my experience.

If anything, the part of your post I quoted in bold is bait, as flailing around emotionally accusing threads “like this” for why most of us got tired of fighting at the same keeps and outposts for 10 years.

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Gabriel_H · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Performance has killed Cyrodiil. Those performance issues are down to DoT and HoT stacking as well as procs, all the result of Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization.

SneaK · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

What are you talking about? 😂

Can’t believe I have to say the quiet part out loud, but no, my OP is not bait, it is not trolling, it is giving my perspective on a system that enriched my experience.

If anything, the part of your post I quoted in bold is bait, as flailing around emotionally accusing threads “like this” for why most of us got tired of fighting at the same keeps and outposts for 10 years.

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Stop editing your babble.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances

^^I’m talking about this^^

Like, what?

This was either satire/bait or this is a PvEr trying to put a positive spin on bad balance decisions in a space they have no clue what they are talking about.

And I wasn’t even replying to you but I’m somehow emotionally invested in your thread.. got it

Gabriel_H · November 21

twisttop138 wrote: »

Those are the places to run the quirky interesting stuff. Prog night is meta night, not because some toxic elitist is forcing you, but because you respect your team and the time they're dedicating to work together. I can't imagine myself showing up and being obtuse and demanding I get to run a 50k DPS meme build cause it's not all about me.

As I said earlier, I am an exception when it comes to RLs. As long as a DD is hitting the minimum dps requirement that's needed to clear within the time I don't care what someone brings.

I know some very good DDs, and despite repeatidely telling them they don't need to bring a sub-classed beam boy to the prog, we have ~6 minutes to spare, they continue to do so even though they'd prefer to play another class for that exact reason.

Radiate77 · November 21

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Performance has killed Cyrodiil. Those performance issues are down to DoT and HoT stacking as well as procs, all the result of Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization.

Are we going to pretend that Cyrodiil hasn’t always been plagued by bad performance leading up to our server hardware refresh?

You know, the one that Matt didn’t expect any significant improvements from, yet it somehow fixed the problem for a few months?

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/630425/hardware-refresh-work-update-march-31-2023

React wrote: »

ZOS_Kevin wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

It would be ideal if ZOS would communicate internally better so that the team responsible for the in-game events would know in advance when there are some potenial server down-times and plan events in different days.

Wanted to chime in here and provide a little bit of context. The in-game events team is aware and part of the process of the hardware refresh. In fact, many teams need to be on the same page for a maintenance like this to happen. One thing to remember is, there are many teams working together to pull this off. We understand sometimes that isn't the best timing for events and how that is frustrating. As a reminder, that is why we built in the extra day for Jester's, to try and balance that out. However, we also have to take into account the teams involved and where those teams are. The teams have to be available to do the work. And pushing out one of these dates would inevitably impact when other servers get their refresh. The team considers multiple angles when choosing a time for these and work to create the least friction possible, when possible. Hopefully this provides some context for timings, as events are not the only factor the team has to consider when planning out the maintenance here.

While we know it is frustrating, we to appreciate everyone's patience and understanding for these maintenance windows.

I know it likely isn't at the top of the priority list, but are the developers aware of the timeline with PC NA's server performance in the past year? Are there any plans to address this?

When we got the fresh hardware, cyrodiil ran flawlessly. I don't say that lightly - at the end of week one post server replacement, I had one particular fight where I was in a keep with over 100 players on the player counter, multiple "ball groups" fighting with one another, over 30 siege deployed across the 3 factions, in a pop locked gray host during the prime hours. There was no ability delay or lag at all. This was completely unheard of - the game never had run this well in it's entire life. Everybody I know that PVPs was ecstatic, and I had numerous friends returning to the game.

Fast forward 3-4 months post server replacement, and suddenly the performance drastically decreases. GrayHost begins to become "unplayable" again each night once it fills, and any time there is a large conflict (particularly between "ball groups"), the entire campaign experienced skill delay. It seemingly just happened out of nowhere.

Now, one year post hardware replacement, both CP cyrodiil campaigns become extremely laggy as soon as they fill. There is significant skill delay every single night, and it is very close to the level of unbearable performance we had right before the hardware refresh.

I'm no server engineer. But I do have friends that work in that field, and what they've suggested to me is that it seems like when the servers were first replaced, there were more resources dedicated to cyrodiil allowing for the flawless performance we didn't think was possible. They have implied that the sudden and drastic decrease 3-4 months later would indicate that some of those server resources were reallocated.

I know it’s been awhile, but let’s be honest here.

Gabriel_H · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

Are we going to pretend that Cyrodiil hasn’t always been plagued by bad performance leading up to our server hardware refresh?

The difference is this.

Before all that there was some performance issues and a player cap per alliance of ~300.
After all that there are much worse performance issues and a player cap per alliance of ~75.

Radiate77 · November 21

Radiate77 · November 21

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What are you talking about? 😂

Can’t believe I have to say the quiet part out loud, but no, my OP is not bait, it is not trolling, it is giving my perspective on a system that enriched my experience.

If anything, the part of your post I quoted in bold is bait, as flailing around emotionally accusing threads “like this” for why most of us got tired of fighting at the same keeps and outposts for 10 years.

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Stop editing your babble.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances

^^I’m talking about this^^

Like, what?

This was either satire/bait or this is a PvEr trying to put a positive spin on bad balance decisions in a space they have no clue what they are talking about.

And I wasn’t even replying to you but I’m somehow emotionally invested in your thread.. got it

Kind of hard not to edit when you’re replying to actual bait.

Gabriel_H · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

Also, @Gabriel_H just so you don’t have to dig too deep, using the forum search function for “Cyrodiil lag” it is clear for anyone to see, that there was not a noticeable spike in complaints between Hybridization -> Subclassing regarding performance issues.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/123178/cyrodiil-fps-lag-is-fail
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/157092/cyrodiil-to-lag-or-not-to-lag-i-may-have-a-solution
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/236615/a-solution-for-lag-zergs-solo-and-small-group-play-in-cyrodiil
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/168802/cyrodiil-without-lags-idea
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/522722/performans-improvements-where-is-cyrodiil-lag-fix
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/442568/again-the-lag-in-cyrodiil
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/529977/video-comparison-of-the-current-overland-lag-with-last-patchs-cyrodiil-lag
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/229423/lag-in-cyrodiil-video-comparison
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490071/cyrodiil-lag-issue-post-35443434

You know the Vengeance campaign right? Want to know the difference between that and Live cyro? That would be the HoT and DoT stacking and the procs - and oh look the performance is much better than on Live cyro and the player cap per alliance is up at around 300 instead of 75.

SneaK · November 21

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What are you talking about? 😂

Can’t believe I have to say the quiet part out loud, but no, my OP is not bait, it is not trolling, it is giving my perspective on a system that enriched my experience.

If anything, the part of your post I quoted in bold is bait, as flailing around emotionally accusing threads “like this” for why most of us got tired of fighting at the same keeps and outposts for 10 years.

Subclassing, Scribing, and Hybridization are not what has killed Cyrodiil.

A lack of development, has killed Cyrodiil.

Stop editing your babble.

Radiate77 wrote: »

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances

^^I’m talking about this^^

Like, what?

This was either satire/bait or this is a PvEr trying to put a positive spin on bad balance decisions in a space they have no clue what they are talking about.

And I wasn’t even replying to you but I’m somehow emotionally invested in your thread.. got it

Kind of hard not to edit when you’re replying to actual bait.

Good one.