Subclassing Appreciation

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Eh? I know of only one player who does not subclass for high-end content. Your argument is becoming nonsensical very quickly.

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Eh? I know of only one player who does not subclass for high-end content. Your argument is becoming nonsensical very quickly.

But do they enjoy it? Apparently the entire end-game community despises Subclassing.

Then again, I only read that on the forums.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Eh? I know of only one player who does not subclass for high-end content. Your argument is becoming nonsensical very quickly.

But do they enjoy it? Apparently the entire end-game community despises Subclassing.

No, it's a trash system.

As I said it fails to take into consideration that base classes have mixed lines, so it's more detrimental to builds on the whole for those classes.

It destroys class identity which is the foundation of an RPG game. While that is not native to a TES game it is to an MMORPG.

It's a min/maxers dream, allowing for greater damage output, but at the expense of survivability which the tanks and the healers then have additional pressure to mitigate at the cost of their own builds. Something ZOS acknowledged but don't seem to appreciate the consequence of.

I want you to really think about that last one: The goal was "With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before." So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation? Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden? On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Radiate77 · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Eh? I know of only one player who does not subclass for high-end content. Your argument is becoming nonsensical very quickly.

But do they enjoy it? Apparently the entire end-game community despises Subclassing.

No, it's a trash system.

As I said it fails to take into consideration that base classes have mixed lines, so it's more detrimental to builds on the whole for those classes.

It destroys class identity which is the foundation of an RPG game. While that is not native to a TES game it is to an MMORPG.

It's a min/maxers dream, allowing for greater damage output, but at the expense of survivability which the tanks and the healers then have additional pressure to mitigate at the cost of their own builds. Something ZOS acknowledged but don't seem to appreciate the consequence of.

I want you to really think about that last one: The goal was "With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before." So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation? Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden? On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

There it is. The same groups that had everyone hop on an Arcanist before Subclassing now are complaining about being forced into yet another “class” but instead of acknowledging that the reason why that is, is the same reason why it WAS.

Players have a choice, they can run content like they’re on fire, or they can take into account everyone in their group and make accommodations. From the sound of it, you find yourself in the former, not the latter. That’s unfortunate.

Now, you brought up this idea of an “argument” earlier, and make no mistake, this is not that.

This is me explaining to you, that your problems are not mine.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

What do I know about the hardest content in the game though? I’m just a Subclass enjoyer.

Everyone knows we only pick flowers, right @Gabriel_H?

Eh? I know of only one player who does not subclass for high-end content. Your argument is becoming nonsensical very quickly.

But do they enjoy it? Apparently the entire end-game community despises Subclassing.

No, it's a trash system.

As I said it fails to take into consideration that base classes have mixed lines, so it's more detrimental to builds on the whole for those classes.

It destroys class identity which is the foundation of an RPG game. While that is not native to a TES game it is to an MMORPG.

It's a min/maxers dream, allowing for greater damage output, but at the expense of survivability which the tanks and the healers then have additional pressure to mitigate at the cost of their own builds. Something ZOS acknowledged but don't seem to appreciate the consequence of.

I want you to really think about that last one: The goal was "With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before." So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation? Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden? On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

There it is. The same groups that had everyone hop on an Arcanist before Subclassing now are complaining about being forced into yet another “class” but instead of acknowledging that the reason why that is, is the same reason why it WAS.

Players have a choice, they can run content like they’re on fire, or they can take into account everyone in their group and make accommodations. From the sound of it, you find yourself in the former, not the latter. That’s unfortunate.

Now, you brought up this idea of an “argument” earlier, and make no mistake, this is not that.

This is me explaining to you, that your problems are not mine.

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

karthrag_inak · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Gabriel_H · November 19

karthrag_inak wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

That's a lot of words to simply say you can't answer the question. Try again:

"With the power of subclassing at your command, you have options to play your way like never before."

So by all means tell me how a DD can play how they want - doing max damage - and a tank/healer does the same when there is now a serious drop in the DD's damage mitigation?

Where do high-end raid leads impose that burden?

On the DDs or the tanks/healers?

Edit: Oh and just for the record I have zero issues running my un-subclassed un-meta Templar tank in any content. So that problem you think I have is sadly a figment of your imagination.

No no no, you are confused. This is not the case of a player being unable to play how THEY want to, it's players not playing how YOU want them to.

Is that sufficiently terse?

Way to miss the point. /facepalm

My complaint is players are not able to play how THEY want because the system so grossly favours min/maxing that OTHERS won't let them.

Anumaril · November 19

Very very glad ZOS implemented this, although I wish they'd gone all the way by not having limits on what skill lines we could use or needing to sacrifice our own skill lines to do so. Right now swapping between builds is rather clunky, but the system is very much welcome regardless.

Udrath · November 19

Honestly I wish instead of subclassing they gutted the entire combat system, and replaced it with mount & blade style directional combat and blocking, and magic thrown in and precise aiming with long draw speed for bows lmao

Basically Skyrim-like combat. No sets bonuses just armor types with slight buffs for what you’re wearing, no levels, no champion points.

LunaFlora · November 19

i love Subclassing. it has made the game much more fun to me, especially combat

moderatelyfatman · November 19

If ZOS had done a better job of balancing classes and making Scribing useful....

Radiate77 · November 19

LunaFlora wrote: »

i love Subclassing. it has made the game much more fun to me, especially combat

Couldn’t agree more.

Radiate77 · November 19

Anumaril wrote: »

Very very glad ZOS implemented this, although I wish they'd gone all the way by not having limits on what skill lines we could use or needing to sacrifice our own skill lines to do so. Right now swapping between builds is rather clunky, but the system is very much welcome regardless.

Yeah, when it was first announced, my hope was that we could have all skill lines available to swap between at any given moment instead of needing an Armorer or to visit the shrine.

Maybe that will change at some point, either way, I agree with you on that. Would have been nice if we had access to everything, and as far as balancing goes, they could just tier passives by strength and grant them based on the amount of actives slotted from each skill line.

You have 2 Stormcalling slotted on your front bar and 1 on your backbar? You get 50% value from your passives, as there are 6 skills in Stormcalling.

This would open up the use of any skills from any line without breaking the game, with the more heavily you lean in a direction, the more benefits you get, being more proficient at whatever you’re trying to accomplish.

MISTFORMBZZZ · November 19

Guess we found a staff members private forum account

tohopka_eso · November 19

I like subclassing but my issue is finding that right skill set to go with my main class. ATM I went back to pure class on three characters though.

tomofhyrule · November 19

There are a lot of people who dislike the implementation of Subclassing who would be fine with it if it were released as a balanced product. But, like most things in ESO, it was shoved out in the most destructive way and specifically designed to pit playerbases against each other.

Subclassing is great for people who want to build their characters in a specific way or who want to be in godmode. Subclassing is terrible for people who want there to be any diversity in endgame or who want to bring their specifically-designed character into endgame.

There was a whole thread on PTS offerring solutions to how Subclassing could be done (or even a more free version that doesn't have the restrictions on keep one class line/can't take more than one from the same parent) that also doesn't destroy the balance in endgame. But of course, none of that feedback was taken. As a result, you end up with the "I love subclassing" and "I love balance" sides of the argument and they are opposed, since ESO evidently doesn't consider that Subclassing and balance are compatible concepts. And no amount of players blindly praising it is going to bring around the people who dislike it.

Radiate77 · November 19

MISTFORMBZZZ wrote: »

Guess we found a staff members private forum account

You obviously don’t visit other threads. 😅

I have been entirely critical of the bad decisions this company have made, Subclassing just isn’t one of them.

Radiate77 · November 19

tomofhyrule wrote: »

There are a lot of people who dislike the implementation of Subclassing who would be fine with it if it were released as a balanced product. But, like most things in ESO, it was shoved out in the most destructive way and specifically designed to pit playerbases against each other.

Subclassing is great for people who want to build their characters in a specific way or who want to be in godmode. Subclassing is terrible for people who want there to be any diversity in endgame or who want to bring their specifically-designed character into endgame.

There was a whole thread on PTS offerring solutions to how Subclassing could be done (or even a more free version that doesn't have the restrictions on keep one class line/can't take more than one from the same parent) that also doesn't destroy the balance in endgame. But of course, none of that feedback was taken. As a result, you end up with the "I love subclassing" and "I love balance" sides of the argument and they are opposed, since ESO evidently doesn't consider that Subclassing and balance are compatible concepts. And no amount of players blindly praising it is going to bring around the people who dislike it.

You see, I’ve just never had those problems.
We Subclass enjoyers are master flower pickers.

SneaK · November 19

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Right, it’s “fun” to kill weak monsters with a wide variety of skills. Balance doesn’t matter at all in these scenarios. The argument IMO holds no weight, the shine will wear off for these types of players who don’t strive to be endgame players. MMO’s aren’t casual by nature, they are massive time sinks and the longevity is in achievements, gear grinds, character connections, and PvP. Subclassing in its current state is bad for longevity and panders to solo RPGrs not MMO fans. ZOS needs to figure this out. ESO is an MMO and should be marketed as such. They don’t understand who their target audience is or should be.

I still believe that despite all my disdain for subclassing, hybridization is actually the root cause of most balance issues and until they fix it and deal with how healing scales, any semblance of balance will never be achievable.

Radiate77 · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Right, it’s “fun” to kill weak monsters with a wide variety of skills. Balance doesn’t matter at all in these scenarios. The argument IMO holds no weight, the shine will wear off for these types of players who don’t strive to be endgame players. MMO’s aren’t casual by nature, they are massive time sinks and the longevity is in achievements, gear grinds, character connections, and PvP. Subclassing in its current state is bad for longevity and panders to solo RPGrs not MMO fans. ZOS needs to figure this out. ESO is an MMO and should be marketed as such. They don’t understand who their target audience is or should be.

I still believe that despite all my disdain for subclassing, hybridization is actually the root cause of most balance issues and until they fix it and deal with how healing scales, any semblance of balance will never be achievable.

Once again, an entirely wrong take.

Having more build strength in the hands of players, enables other players entry into content where their contribution would have needed to be much higher.

The goal posts on HM requirements have not moved, yet now people are doing 1.5x as much damage if they want to. That means another player in their group can do .5x the normal damage and still clear.

It’s the Oakensoul argument all over again, everyone hates that people are being included in the harder activities while those of us who SHERPA love it.

SneaK · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Right, it’s “fun” to kill weak monsters with a wide variety of skills. Balance doesn’t matter at all in these scenarios. The argument IMO holds no weight, the shine will wear off for these types of players who don’t strive to be endgame players. MMO’s aren’t casual by nature, they are massive time sinks and the longevity is in achievements, gear grinds, character connections, and PvP. Subclassing in its current state is bad for longevity and panders to solo RPGrs not MMO fans. ZOS needs to figure this out. ESO is an MMO and should be marketed as such. They don’t understand who their target audience is or should be.

I still believe that despite all my disdain for subclassing, hybridization is actually the root cause of most balance issues and until they fix it and deal with how healing scales, any semblance of balance will never be achievable.

Once again, an entirely wrong take.

Having more build strength in the hands of players, enables other players entry into content where their contribution would have needed to be much higher.

The goal posts on HM requirements have not moved, yet now people are doing 1.5x as much damage if they want to. That means another player in their group can do .5x the normal damage and still clear.

It’s the Oakensoul argument all over again, everyone hates that people are being included in the harder activities while those of us who SHERPA love it.

No.

No.

No.

Your scenario literally describes the issue people have. HMs haven’t changed, but in order to carry casuals who want to clear HMs on a “fun” build the Sherpa is required to subclass into a mutt monster optimal DPS. That is not balanced. That is “requiring” people to play a certain way. This is just PvE, when it comes to PvP it’s even worse. You either zerg in your off meta builds cause you can’t compete against the meta, or you choose the meta and face tank bomb zergs.

Sorry, but your take is entirely wrong.

*also*
“entry into content” - HMs should be hard, it’s taken many players months/years to progress through some of this content. A new player isn’t owed these achievements. The fact that this is a part of your argument is insane to me.

Radiate77 · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Right, it’s “fun” to kill weak monsters with a wide variety of skills. Balance doesn’t matter at all in these scenarios. The argument IMO holds no weight, the shine will wear off for these types of players who don’t strive to be endgame players. MMO’s aren’t casual by nature, they are massive time sinks and the longevity is in achievements, gear grinds, character connections, and PvP. Subclassing in its current state is bad for longevity and panders to solo RPGrs not MMO fans. ZOS needs to figure this out. ESO is an MMO and should be marketed as such. They don’t understand who their target audience is or should be.

I still believe that despite all my disdain for subclassing, hybridization is actually the root cause of most balance issues and until they fix it and deal with how healing scales, any semblance of balance will never be achievable.

Once again, an entirely wrong take.

Having more build strength in the hands of players, enables other players entry into content where their contribution would have needed to be much higher.

The goal posts on HM requirements have not moved, yet now people are doing 1.5x as much damage if they want to. That means another player in their group can do .5x the normal damage and still clear.

It’s the Oakensoul argument all over again, everyone hates that people are being included in the harder activities while those of us who SHERPA love it.

No.

No.

No.

Your scenario literally describes the issue people have. HMs haven’t changed, but in order to carry casuals who want to clear HMs on a “fun” build the Sherpa is required to subclass into a mutt monster optimal DPS. That is not balanced. That is “requiring” people to play a certain way. This is just PvE, when it comes to PvP it’s even worse. You either zerg in your off meta builds cause you can’t compete against the meta, or you choose the meta and face tank bomb zergs.

Sorry, but your take is entirely wrong.

Most Subclassed builds are reaching near that pre-Subclassing threshold of damage, if someone wants to make a crazy parse monster because they enjoy the inclusion net that creates, that’s not forced, that’s an active decision.

People do not force others into builds.
There is nobody holding you hostage.
…I promise. 😁

SneaK · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Radiate77 wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Gabriel_H wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”.

The argument is this: In Low/Medium-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 1,000 to 5,000 per role.
The problem is this: In High-end content it changes the number of viable builds from 5 to 1 per role.

Edit: The latter being an unintended consquence that was forseeable for everyone who runs high-end, but doesn't seem to have been for ZOS, despite them being explicitly told so before release to Live.

Right, it’s “fun” to kill weak monsters with a wide variety of skills. Balance doesn’t matter at all in these scenarios. The argument IMO holds no weight, the shine will wear off for these types of players who don’t strive to be endgame players. MMO’s aren’t casual by nature, they are massive time sinks and the longevity is in achievements, gear grinds, character connections, and PvP. Subclassing in its current state is bad for longevity and panders to solo RPGrs not MMO fans. ZOS needs to figure this out. ESO is an MMO and should be marketed as such. They don’t understand who their target audience is or should be.

I still believe that despite all my disdain for subclassing, hybridization is actually the root cause of most balance issues and until they fix it and deal with how healing scales, any semblance of balance will never be achievable.

Once again, an entirely wrong take.

Having more build strength in the hands of players, enables other players entry into content where their contribution would have needed to be much higher.

The goal posts on HM requirements have not moved, yet now people are doing 1.5x as much damage if they want to. That means another player in their group can do .5x the normal damage and still clear.

It’s the Oakensoul argument all over again, everyone hates that people are being included in the harder activities while those of us who SHERPA love it.

No.

No.

No.

Your scenario literally describes the issue people have. HMs haven’t changed, but in order to carry casuals who want to clear HMs on a “fun” build the Sherpa is required to subclass into a mutt monster optimal DPS. That is not balanced. That is “requiring” people to play a certain way. This is just PvE, when it comes to PvP it’s even worse. You either zerg in your off meta builds cause you can’t compete against the meta, or you choose the meta and face tank bomb zergs.

Sorry, but your take is entirely wrong.

Most Subclassed builds are reaching near that pre-Subclassing threshold of damage, if someone wants to make a crazy parse monster because they enjoy the inclusion net that creates, that’s not forced, that’s an active decision.

People do not force others into builds.
There is nobody holding you hostage.
…I promise. 😁

You are very condescending.

ZOS and subclassing is what is forcing people to play specific builds in order to complete the scenario you just laid out.

And again, ZOS and subclassing is forcing people to play a specific way in PvP because the power gap created is the worst it’s ever been.

twisttop138 · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Hope everyone’s having a great day, just wanted to say thanks to the team for this incredible system.

Since it’s introduction, our guild has been able to help bring people through their first hard mode trials, with unique builds that make the content more forgiving than ever.

One such example being a Templar or Warden healer, and a Dragonknight or Arcanist tank, now having the ability to revive players still learning the mechanics by throwing on Living Death to use a Necromancer ultimate.

Trials have never been more inviting!
And it’s not just PvE.

I have seen more creativity than ever in Battlegrounds. Playing a ranged build? You now have access to Streak and/or Cloak! Tired of getting blasted by said ranged builds? Counter them with Dragon Fire Scales or Crystalized Slab. Assassination is overtuned, but you know what? Good luck touching someone sitting in a Shifting Standard! We finally have checks and balances, and although some skill lines do need love, it’s nice to finally have some diversity of encounters.

I see new, never thought possible, builds daily.
So thank you, ZOS.

I'm curious about the phenomenon of someone creates a thread and someone feels they have to post a thread saying the opposite. Not saying it was intentional here, just something I noticed.

Im not sure how to feel about subclassing. It's a mess of balance issues. These things are clearly not designed to work together and it really feels like someone said push it out NOW. I don't pvp but I've heard myriad complaints and understand. I also hear the raiding complaints because that's my main focus.

I do want to say though, that what the op has seen, I also see. For myself, I was learning my class and vet trials and hm dungeons when it dropped. It has helped me to progress further, maybe faster. But I'm also in a social guild, and they do weekly vet trial learning runs 2 days a week and we've seen full rosters almost every time and lots of people that try it and like it because now they can do better numbers and they feel like they're contributing. It's certainly helped bring more people to endgame in my opinion. That's important, because as we lose people, they need to be replaced. That's not to say we don't need balance, pure class help etc. As an Arcanist DPS, we shouldn't perform so much higher than everyone else. Idk I guess time will tell.

Castagere · November 19

I was against this at first. And I can see why some want it gone. I am sick and tired of every delve or public dungeon I go in, and all I see is arcanist skills all over the place. I blame this on mid/max and content creators for this. I have two max characters, and I pick one other skill line for both, and none are arcanist skill lines. Since I solo ESO, this has not been a problem for me. I do my own research for my characters. I am not a follower of someone else's ideas.

Radiate77 · November 19

Castagere wrote: »

I was against this at first. And I can see why some want it gone. I am sick and tired of every delve or public dungeon I go in, and all I see is arcanist skills all over the place. I blame this on mid/max and content creators for this. I have two max characters, and I pick one other skill line for both, and none are arcanist skill lines. Since I solo ESO, this has not been a problem for me. I do my own research for my characters. I am not a follower of someone else's ideas.

Yup, while some skill lines, like Dark Magic mentioned earlier in the thread, need some love, other ones like Herald of the Tome, or more pointedly, skills like Fatecarver… really need to be reigned in.

That said, glad you’ve been enjoying the system too, when you really start getting into the theorycrafting aspects of it, it opens so many doors.

BardokRedSnow · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

BardokRedSnow wrote: »

SneaK wrote: »

Actually can’t tell if satire or not…. can determine 100% bait though.

From my brief time paying attention to this place, I can see that anything one might disagree with is considered bait here.

I would still have preferred Subclassing be introduced differently but there's always time to address what I believe needs to be, for instance there needs to be incentive or good reason to pure class vs subclass, class mastery should be a more viable thing in the future, whereas subclassing should be looked at imo the same way scribing is, to augment people's preferred builds rather than outright replace them.

Something like allowing us to customize certain class abilities and maybe have them only be available if pure classed I think would be fair.

But in any case, whatever they do, I have come around a bit more now that I've had time to play with it. It has raised the power creep but we've been there before. As long as they work to try and maintain what eso was while also keeping and improving these systems, I think it'll be good for the game in the future, at least from a pvp aspect.

For PvE I dunno what they should do aside from I guess nerf beams. Perhaps offering scribable skills for pure classes could also improve the sameness of pve right now for dps. Beams beams beams definitely doesn't make me wanna do trials.

Again, can’t tell if satire.

We’ve never ever been this far apart.

The systems introduced demolished what ESO was and they haven’t done any tweaking to balance since subclassing was introduced.

If these are in fact satire, yall got me.

The only argument I see with Subclassing is, “it’s fun”. Here’s a comparison only a few will understand. NFL Blitz on N64, it was an awesome game. Then you learned the cheat code for infinite sprint, you literally couldn’t play the game without it. If whoever you played against didn’t get their code in on time before the game started, y’all quit and started again. ZOS never should have rolled it out, they probably can’t close the book on it now even though they should. There’s a lot of us who can rightfully be bitter about it cause it blew the game up, and likely forever which is hinted at ZOS’s silence or ambiguous Vengeance tests or surveys.

Literally every time a chapter introduces a crazy new mythic or system like the introduction of the mythic system itself, a new set etc, the power creep increased again and again and again, sometimes being successfully addressed with nerfs or more often simply countered with a new shiny system or armor set etc, so whatever your point of contention is with my statement besides just being upset someone likes what you don’t, I don’t see it.

As far as preserving what eso was, I mean they should work to keep class identity rather than destroy it despite the existence of sub classing which I outlined with my suggestions.

Y’all like drama here too much, maybe try to understand where someone else is coming from before disagreeing. I understand the issues subclassing introduces, it’s why I took a long break from the game. I have been a dk main since the game launched on several accounts. But denying that there’s good it introduces also that can be preserved with some improvements to both the subclassing system itself as well as fortifying the idea of class identity to me is unproductive.

Gabriel_H · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

MMO’s aren’t casual by nature

Studies suggest arounnd 50% of players are casual, with the rest on a scale between casual and hardcore. Moreover, in recent years MMOs have found hardcore requirements being rejected by the player base, with more casual approaches fairing better.

Commercially, sub-classing should yield results (if not for all the other bugs), but ZOS need to start thinking about traditional end-game, even though - and here's the kicker - less than 5% of players participate in HM content. Those figures come from consoles where it shows achievements completed by % of players.

Radiate77 · November 19

SneaK wrote: »

*also*
“entry into content” - HMs should be hard, it’s taken many players months/years to progress through some of this content. A new player isn’t owed these achievements. The fact that this is a part of your argument is insane to me.

You’re living up to your name, you snuck that one in as an edit; so let me humor you.

Nobody is saying people deserve a free pass. What I am saying, is that even with a unique build, you need to learn mechanics and be the best version of yourself.

That’s the beauty of how hard mode is treated after Subclassing. You can now run a “Pure Class” that hits around 100-140k and someone with 170k will make your rotation feel lighter.

Now people can focus on running up the stairs in time and not dying to lava at Xalvakka.

PvE is not a competition, unless you’re pushing leaderboards, which have been notoriously non-rewarding… it is a good thing if your teammates have the ability to choose between survivability or hitting higher damage.

Gabriel_H · November 19

Radiate77 wrote: »

Most Subclassed builds are reaching near that pre-Subclassing threshold of damage, if someone wants to make a crazy parse monster because they enjoy the inclusion net that creates, that’s not forced, that’s an active decision.

People do not force others into builds.
There is nobody holding you hostage.
…I promise. 😁

You've still got this backwards. High-end content requires a co-ordinated group. Everyone in the group expects the others to do their jobs.

There is no "Well, Bob says he wants to bring a DD that does 33% of the damage of the rest of you. That cool?"

If you have that, great BUT 99.9% do not. It does not work that way.