RIP ESOU

JiubLeRepenti

Elsonso wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

manukartofanu wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

tomofhyrule wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

Players have the right to participate in whatever activities they enjoy, be it solo or group, and no one way is more right than the other.

...which also implies that players who are interested in the more endgame group-y stuff should get some love from the devs as well.

And that's the problem - they feel like they haven't been.

Every single thing in the game except overland is challenging content. All of it. And now they plan some kind of difficulty increase for overland too. How is that not getting some love?

Overland isn't endgame PvE... Why do end-game players need an increase in its difficulty? Just take a look at the forums; what are end-game players complaining about? Is there even a single mention that they want an increase in overland difficulty? Don't blame players for what developers want to do.

There's a years old thread with hundreds of pages of vet players asking for an increased difficulty to Overland.

A lot of the streamers talk about "Stupidly Easy" overland. I have always been a little confused by this. I know vet players want harder content, but why do they need what is essentially the "lobby" to be harder content?

The main problem is that the game offers the same overworld difficulty for all players, no matter what their level is or which zone they are in. A new player with a level 3 character should be able to move freely everywhere in Tamriel. Fine. But this means that an endgame/HL player, who deals 20 times more damage and perfectly understands the gameplay and its mechanics, will have to deal with an overworld designed for a level 3 character. The only exceptions to this are WB and wanderers you meet in certain zones. And it's probably why HL/endgame players don't like it: it's not very interesting to be able to brainlessly stomp almost everything around you without a miligram of challenge.

I think it’s quite logical, as ESO, from my perspective, wanted to attract players from previous TES games. They didn’t attract them with a "WoW-buster" concept or something like that. A huge focus was initially placed on the solo and casual experience, because this was the type of game TES fans were expecting: to play Skyrim in a multiplayer world. I think this is the main reason why all zones now deliver the same level of difficulty (aside from WB).

Aside from that, in terms of coherence, I find it a bit funny to see my character literally two-shot 120k mobs, like trolls that are twice as tall as me, or to be able to stand next to mobs for ten minutes before getting killed. Or to be able to pack 200 mobs in Skyreach without dying. This is why Craglorn is my favorite zone. Even though it’s still very easy to deal with, you can encounter mobs with a bit more HP and slightly more damage.

My dream would be to have a zone purely dedicated to HL/endgame players, with 15M HP WB, 200k basic mobs, and 1/2M HP trash mobs. A zone where fauna and monsters would have significantly higher damage and new/harder mechanics. That would require more cooperation between players and force new players (or those who are just not into HL) to actually improve their level.

Azyle1

I mean call a spade a spade. ESO is not doing well and people are fed up. Sure - the casuals may be OK but a lot of the hardcore are leaving. So enjoy Disney World.

It baffles me as to how people defend this game at this point. The Devs say over and over and over that they will fix things and it never happens. They implement terrible ideas that the community actively tells them not to do but they ignore it and all they care about again, is the Crown Store.

Coo_PnT

Do you want to make it like Darksoul from here, introducing 1 life hardcore as well?
I think this game is fine casual.

But I think there is a demand for a hardcore mode.

JiubLeRepenti

Azyle1 wrote: »

I mean call a spade a spade. ESO is not doing well and people are fed up. Sure - the casuals may be OK but a lot of the hardcore are leaving. So enjoy Disney World.

It baffles me as to how people defend this game at this point. The Devs say over and over and over that they will fix things and it never happens. They implement terrible ideas that the community actively tells them not to do but they ignore it and all they care about again, is the Crown Store.

Yeah, and the worst part is that the game made 2 freaking billion—500k a day.

When you see how a dedicated team of fans is completely recreating Morrowind and Oblivion with projects like Skywind/Skyblivion... And then you have people explaining to you that ZOS and its 2 billion can't code cloaks in ESO because of "engine limitations."

Then why don't they simply switch to a new engine? Didn't they know in 2014 that they would be greatly limited by an engine that can't even let you stand on moving platforms?

Koshka

Coo_PnT wrote: »

Do you want to make it like Darksoul from here, introducing 1 life hardcore as well?
I think this game is fine casual.

But I think there is a demand for a hardcore mode.

Skyrim is not dark souls and it is a very casual game, but players are presented with some challeges here and there. During one of the first quests you encounter a frost troll, and it is a formidable foe. Compare that to the non-boss trolls in eso.
Then there are briarhearts, certain types of falmer, ash spawn etc.

karthrag_inak

OK, so khajiit sees this
"Oh Save me, I won't be able to figure out the game without some 'Content Creator' to show me builds!"

along with

"ESO is hurting and it's obvious to everyone except maybe for those casuals who want Disney World."

and frankly, Khajiit is confused.

C0L0SSUS

Well this is really sad... From a day 1 player i wish u the best with my appreciation for all this years. Esou help players to develop and the game to rich new standards. Ty

Koshka

karthrag_inak wrote: »

OK, so khajiit sees this
"Oh Save me, I won't be able to figure out the game without some 'Content Creator' to show me builds!"

along with

"ESO is hurting and it's obvious to everyone except maybe for those casuals who want Disney World."

and frankly, Khajiit is confused.

People can think about other players interests, not just their own.
For example, I do not need guides and prefer to go in the new dungeons blind. I only ever use sites like uesp or eso hub for their databases of furnishings, leads and such.
But eso is an big game, with tons of confusing and not so obvious quirks and systems. New players are often overwhelmed by this, and this is where guides come into play. In most gsmes there is demand for these kinds of things because many people do not have the time (or the desire) to figure out everything on their own.

Also, these things (vet players and youtubers leaving, steam stats going down) say a lot about the health of the game. And we are simply concerned about the future of the game that we'd like to continue playing. It is less obvious for solo players, but the population diminishing isn't good for them, either. It means less content in the future and possibly no content at all in a few years. Haven't you noticed that we were getting fewer quest zones lately?

LalMirchi

Looking at the video clip and other clips by the same author I feel that the belligerent attitudes on both sides of the coin did not make things easy for a smooth partnership to say the least.

LadyGP

Everything changed from U35.

That was the moment ESO began it's decline. The community warned... begged...screamed... and the "knee jerk" comments from someone (who didn't learn from the PvP comments) solidified a crap ton of long time players leaving ESO.

IMO ZoS has been in an echo chamber for so long their perspective of how things are is very... very distorted.

Gaebriel0410

I have seen his videos on occasion or at least part of them, and usually what I got from them is "I don't want to speak bad about the game devs, but I obviously know better since I did xyz, oh well it's their loss for not being as smart or good at the game as me."

That's why I never watch him, I think he is fairly well spoken and probably reasonable in general, so I get why some do. But to me he comes across as incredibly smug and overdramatic when he does not get what he wants.

ESO is far from flawless and being honest with criticism is a good thing, but it is the style how, that bothers me. I only very rarely watch streamers, but the style of those like Skinny or Artea resonate much better with me.

The "public humiliation" part of the video was a good example of what I mean. The show hosts asks him not to stream, he replies by laughing it off, hosts asks again and he just talks back as if it was a negotiable thing for someone in his "position". And then after the host, still in a friendly way, puts him in his place, he sulks. Then after reading all his messsages, implying everyone else agreed with him and thought it was weird too, does he go to the organizers and then is shocked that he only gets x minutes to talk about it. Don't they know who he is??

Now as someone who has done many stage performances, this is pretty common and I've seen much, much harsher language used. As an entertainer you are sharing the stage with many others and there is a strict time schedule, especially if it's televised (I assume it is similar for a twitch livestream). Things like this may seem insignificant but the host is responsible for keeping to the time schedule. To try and negotiate comes across as entitled beyond belief. And the guy surely knows this as well, he has been a popular ESO streamer for some time and I doubt this was his first rodeo.

RomanRex

His feelings resonate with many players, myself included.

Though I’m not a streamer, I feel equally disrespected after such a frustrating year.

I haven’t played in weeks and will mostly just keep an eye on the forums for now. However, it’s clear that many long-time players have noticed the decline and are unwilling to continue supporting a game that seems so disconnected from the respect it once earned among its community.

Poss

Played ESO for 10 years and never heard of ESOU 😂

JiubLeRepenti

ESO is far from flawless and being honest with criticism is a good thing, but it is the style how, that bothers me.

I fully agree on this. Really.

But when countless requests for QoL improvements, server fixes, etc., are ignored or improperly addressed, combined with poor PR and communication about the game and its future, it inevitably leads to frustration and disappointment. So yes, while we may regret it, receiving negative feedback and frank criticism seems unavoidable.

The latest example is the cancellation of the US event for ESO. No explanation, nothing—just 'We canceled it, deal with it.' And yet, you expect the community to communicate respectfully with you and your team?

I recently made a very long thread about it.

Communication from the community must be respectful and polite. However, on the other hand, I sincerely believe that ZOS must fulfill its part of the contract by showing genuine consideration for its community's feedback. After all, players have spent $2 billion on TESO over the past ten years.

Gaebriel0410

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Communication from the community must be respectful and polite. However, on the other hand, I sincerely believe that ZOS must fulfill its part of the contract by showing genuine consideration for its community's feedback. After all, players have spent $2 billion on TESO over the past ten years.

Oh yes without a doubt, it's a two way street after all.

Though I also don't think that feedback is willfully ignored, and that goes for any game really. But every player has different perspectives of what is most important to him or her. Except server stability and performance I'd say, that is probably universally shared as it affects everyone.

LadyGP

Gaebriel0410 wrote: »

JiubLeRepenti wrote: »

Communication from the community must be respectful and polite. However, on the other hand, I sincerely believe that ZOS must fulfill its part of the contract by showing genuine consideration for its community's feedback. After all, players have spent $2 billion on TESO over the past ten years.

Oh yes without a doubt, it's a two way street after all.

Though I also don't think that feedback is willfully ignored, and that goes for any game really. But every player has different perspectives of what is most important to him or her. Except server stability and performance I'd say, that is probably universally shared as it affects everyone.

Would go a long way if ZoS explained WHY they feel a change was warranted.. like peel back the curtains a bit and explain the reason behind the changes and why you feel peoples feedback/comments don't allign with your direction.

Saying we are making this change because xyz (like U35) is not what I mean. The community gave you hundreds of reasons why U35 was going to be a disaster. What I want to know is why did ZoS disagree with that feedback and push forward.

Vaqual

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Vaqual wrote: »

CatoUnchained wrote: »

Ultimately this is a division between the casual questers who don't need tutorials to learn how to mow down mobs that fall down dead if you dare look in their direction vs. the competitive end game players, who rely heavily on each other to understand and beat the games toughest content.[/i]

No, this is simply an unnecessary simplification and division. You can absolutely progress on your own or with people who do not tap into these types of sources. This was a major point I was trying to make. There is no direct dependency on this type of media for a player to master all content. Yes, people can benefit from it - but it is not required. At some point people started from 0, and it took them what? A a couple weeks on regular schedule or a few no-life mode nights per trial release?
This game isn't rocket science. You need people that signify that there lies value in the time commitment and people to play with that like doing the content. You don't really need to have the content to be chewed up and regurgitated for easy consumption.

Except this is the difference between the players that is causing all this conflict. The players who want ESO to be a strictly quest solo or with a companion game are demanding that all content should be easy enough for them to complete with very little to no effort. How many posts have been made asking for a story mode for trials? Or that PvP should be eliminated from the game?

Reading these posts makes it very obvious who the end game players are and who are only participating in the casual solo content.

ESO is a TES THEMED game. It's not a solo questing game. ESO is an MMO with PvP and trials that require grouping and a very time consuming learning curve to master. It's far more rewarding to git good as opposed to just mindlessly pushing buttons.

I just can't agree with this. There are people existing between these extremes, that I know for a fact. If you choose to see only black and white that is on you.

OsUfi

Coo_PnT wrote: »

Do you want to make it like Darksoul from here, introducing 1 life hardcore as well?
I think this game is fine casual.

There is a huge difference between Dark Souls and Barney the Dinosaurs Colour Adventure.

I don't want Dark Souls in my ESO, but everything being at Barney's first colouring book level is equally as bad. No story, whatever the stakes, is interesting when you can pretty much afk an end of story boss.

Difficulty lands on a sliding scale, and I'm still eager to see what ZoS do to address the dullness of overland content.

Gaebriel0410

Sure, but as a player I don't necessarily need to see the exact reasoning on how or why a decision was made. I can only assume they are knowledgeable about how things work and don't decide those things on a whim.

A friend of mine who works in game development (not on ESO though) once linked me this meme, which at least to me perfectly illustrated how complicated things can be behind the scenes:


Creative Director: “Yes, we definitely need doors in this game.”
Project Manager: “I’ll put time on the schedule for people to make doors.”
Designer: “I wrote a doc explaining what we need doors to do.”
Concept Artist: “I made some gorgeous paintings of doors.”
Art Director: “This third painting is exactly the style of doors we need.”
Environment Artist: “I took this painting of a door and made it into an object in the game.”
Animator: “I made the door open and close.”
Sound Designer: “I made the sounds the door creates when it opens and closes.”
Audio Engineer: “The sound of the door opening and closing will change based on where the player is and what direction they are facing.”
Composer: “I created a theme song for the door.”
FX Artist: “I added some cool sparks to the door when it opens.”
Writer: “When the door opens, the player will say, ‘Hey look! The door opened!’ “
Lighter: “There is a bright red light over the door when it’s locked, and a green one when it’s opened.”
Legal: “The environment artist put a Starbucks logo on the door. You need to remove that if you don’t want to be sued.”
Character Artist: “I don’t really care about this door until it can start wearing hats.”
Gameplay Programmer: “This door asset now opens and closes based on proximity to the player. It can also be locked and unlocked through script.”
AI Programmer: “Enemies and allies now know if a door is there and whether they can go through it.”
Network Programmer: “Do all the players need to see the door open at the same time?”
Release Engineer: “You need to get your doors in by 3pm if you want them on the disk.”
Core Engine Programmer: “I have optimized the code to allow up to 1024 doors in the game.”
Tools Programmer: “I made it even easier for you to place doors.”
Level Designer: “I put the door in my level and locked it. After an event, I unlocked it.”
UI Designer: “There’s now an objective marker on the door, and it has its own icon on the map.”
Combat Designer: “Enemies will spawn behind doors, and lay cover fire as their allies enter the room. Unless the player is looking inside the door in which case they will spawn behind a different door.”
Systems Designer: “A level 4 player earns 148xp for opening this door at the cost of 3 gold.”
Monetization Designer: “We could charge the player $.99 to open the door now, or wait 24 hours for it to open automatically.”
QA Tester: “I walked to the door. I ran to the door. I jumped at the door. I stood in the doorway until it closed. I saved and reloaded and walked to the door. I died and reloaded then walked to the door. I threw grenades at the door.”
UX / Usability Researcher: “I found some people on Craigslist to go through the door so we could see what problems crop up.”
Localization: “Door. Puerta. Porta. Porte. Tür. Dør. Deur. Drzwi. Drws. 문”
Producer: “Do we need to give everyone those doors or can we save them for a pre-order bonus?”
Publisher: “Those doors are really going to help this game stand out during the fall line-up.”
CEO: “I want you all to know how much I appreciate the time and effort put into making those doors.”
PR: “To all our fans, you’re going to go crazy over our next reveal #gamedev #doors #nextgen #retweet”
Community Manager: “I let the fans know that their concerns about doors will be addressed in the upcoming patch.”
Customer Support: “A player contacted us, confused about doors. I gave them detailed instructions on how to use them.”
Player: “I totally didn’t even notice a door there.”

TaSheen

@Gaebriel0410 - awesome, absolutely spot on, and improved my outlook today immeasurably.

[Not about the game - I'm fine with the game the way it is.... but RL is really getting me right now.... so thanks!]

ZOS_Lunar

Hello everyone,

We appreciate those who kept the discussion constructive and on topic. However, the thread has gone off into a few tangents outside the scope of the thread. Along with some of the commentary around community members, we are going to go ahead and close it.

Thanks for your understanding.