Anti-Teabagging Policy now encouraging even worse toxic behavior

BagOfBadgers

JemadarofCaerSalis wrote: »

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Question and opinions.

Is the Dark Brotherhood equivalent to actual murder and crimes (I know people that don't do any of it as it feels wrong. Their choice)?
The Thieves Guild equivalent to actual theft and crimes?
Overworld questing equivalent to genocide?
Is TB'ing equivalent to SA?

I would say no to all (as someone that is a survivor. I don't need people speaking on my behalf, thank you).

TB'ing, Tactical Squatting, Corpse Humping, Clam Slams, whatever else it's called is a thing. ZOS has ToS that define it and what to do about reporting it.

If someone does it to me in PvP, oh well. Should my Raid Leader die it's a thing we all do to them (not to pugs in group), we even run a addon that counts the most received and delivered. Do I do it in PvP, nah, others do and the run the risk of reports, simples.

There needs to be a better way of reporting unwanted actions/words and being online, not marked offline, etc,etc, should be the only way to whisper or kill another player. So you can only PvP when Online. Change it and get an insta kick.

Anyho off to play ESO.

The difference for those first three is that those are done both willingly by the person AND to an NPC that was coded and has no sentience/sapience to understand what is going on.

T-bagging, on the other hand, is typically done to another player character, which means there is a player behind that character.

Which, it is fine if you don't consider it SA. Just as you don't want others to speak on your behalf, you can't speak on other's behalf.



Also, for the 'well it has been part of PvP for X years', my only thoughts are that just because something has been done for a long time doesn't mean that it is okay or that it has to continue to be done.

Where have I spoken for others? It's my opinions and mine only. If it's been taken as a dismissal of others I can't change how they think, that's up to them. Again I will state this, I am a "Survivor (means that I SURVIVED SA and other attacks, for those that can't take the hint)", does this give a special powers and mean my opinions are better than others, nope.

The TB thing has been ongoing since the late 90's and the same back and forth has been going on since that point. ZOS is one of the few companies that has tried to define a reasonable usage in their TOS and I will give them credit for that. And if someone has made a statement that in game TB'ing effects them/unwanted I WILL RESPECT THAT 100% because not to makes me a a bit of a knob (also why would I want to hurt someone)! I have stated that I don't hump others in an open/public environment.

As a group of players we need to find a solution that is reasonable and workable for most. Where that lands I don't know? Practicable solutions are needed but what can ZOS do, I don't know? Make any PVP online only status and if it's changed a insta kick back to PvE could be a start?

Sorry to be pedantic but they were questions. I made the statement that I don't differentiate the actions, not that anyone must have the same opinions as me.

SilverBride

It's only served to make me less tolerant of lewd and toxic behavior.

spartaxoxo

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

Make any PVP online only status and if it's changed a insta kick back to PvE could be a start?

Honestly, I do think that someone should not be allowed to do it while in offline mode. To me, any attempt to do it while preventing someone from saying otherwise is showing malicious intent.

I refuse to call two players having fun with one another and complimenting each other toxic and lewd because a gesture they're doing has a poor name. But, teabagging strangers while blocking their whispers isn't that.

Elvenheart

Aggrovious wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Teabagging is just crouching up and down. If you get offended by that, don't play multiplayer games with PVP.

The issue is toxic whispers and mass reporting. Lets get that straight.

I mean, with the OP, they don't need to teabag someone who doesn't want them to. Whoever they are discussing is obviously a known quantity. So, just don't teabag them. If they teabag you after being asked to stop, report them

That is the thing. It was dumb the day they activated this policy and its still dumb now. You don't ask someone to stop teabagging you, you just ignore it all together. You are begging to be made fun of by doing this.

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.

Nah. It takes two to play. Respect that someone has declined and leave them alone.

Nah, you got to read what I said here:

Its like if you are in a room with a bunch of vets and then you giggle and say oh sorry I am ticklish. You just asked for a death wish even though you don't wish it.

This may be off topic, but I genuinely don’t understand what this means. Veterinarians? Army veterans? And if you tell them you are ticklish and don’t like being tickled, it’s a guaranteed thing that they will tickle you rather than respect your wishes not to be tickled? Does that mean if you tell them you are ticklish and like being tickled, they won’t touch you with a 10 foot pole? Are they just being contrary?

MidniteOwl1913

I'm not sure how playing a video game is consent to being treated with disrespect. Even going into a PVP zone shouldn't do that.

I don't care what friends do amongst themselves, I don't even care what the intent of the gesture is towards me. I don't like it because of what it represents to me.

I don't know what if anything should done about it.

XoXJulietteXoX

T-bagging is old as time and should not be against TOS. This game has [snip], stealing, and murder, but t-bag someone and you can get banned? 😅 it's a rated M game, for mature.

[Minor Edit for Inappropriate Content]

SilverBride

When we play a fantasy game we expect that there will be enemies to defeat. We do not expect that other players will find a way to simulate a lewd behavior over our body. Teabagging is not an action that was written into the game. It is a player using a game mechanic to humiliate another player. That is the difference.

Four_Fingers

I expect others to be tolerant of my opinions as I will be of theirs realizing in the end that our opinions are just that.
These threads just devolve into endless back and forth between the same people.

BXR_Lonestar

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't know when the focus went from stopping bad behaviors to telling people to just accept and deal with them, but this doesn't bode well for society.

Never said "just accept it" or I could have saved myself a lot of time just typing those three words.

This is how I think it should be:

1. In a game that has PVP and actions not controlled by the Dev's, you should just expect to be teabagged at some point. If that bothers you, don't play PVP.

2. But if you do PVP, you should have the right to ask someone to stop if you believe their behavior amounts to harassment.

3. BUT (and its a BIG BUT!) if you have partaken in the same action, you waive the right to complain about that same action. After all, we don't want to empower hypocrites, right? RIGHT?

4. And treat false reports as a violation of the rules just the same so that all these people who are spam-reporting get banned for abusing the rules too.

5. And 5, no player should face a minute of suspension BEFORE the reports are investigated. Investigate first, then punish. Get rid of this nonsense where a player can be suspended "pending investigation."

Is that fair enough for you?

Aggrovious

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't care if they are dressed. No one has a right to simulate placing their crotch on another player. That is inapporpriate and it really should not be allowed.

It doesn't matter if I kill you. You don't have a say because you are dead.

Xandreia_

Aggrovious wrote: »

SilverBride wrote: »

I don't care if they are dressed. No one has a right to simulate placing their crotch on another player. That is inapporpriate and it really should not be allowed.

It doesn't matter if I kill you. You don't have a say because you are dead.

Gonna need consent to kill people in pvp soon 🙄

SilverBride

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

In a game that has PVP and actions not controlled by the Dev's, you should just expect to be teabagged at some point.

No, this is not an expectation.

I only wanted the action to stop, but now I see that there are some that will continue to do this not caring that some players are disturbed by it. At this point the best we can hope for is that eventually if there are enough warnings it will no longer be a thing.

[Edited to clarify]

Aggrovious

SilverBride wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

In a game that has PVP and actions not controlled by the Dev's, you should just expect to be teabagged at some point.

No, this is not an expectation.

I only wanted the action to stop, but now I see that there are some that will continue to do this not caring that some players are disturbed by it. At this point the best we can hope for is that eventually these players will be removed by their own actions and it will no longer be a thing.

Why would anyone do that in a PVP game? Have you ever played a PVP game before?

Ball groups exist to destroy those solo players. 1Vxers exist to annoy and dominate groups. There are morning and night shifts for Cyrodiil. Some factions desperately buy EU players for their faction to win.

Why on earth would anyone care about respecting your wishes when you are dead? Maybe you should not take it personal. When you do take it personal, they win every time.

Banning Teabagging is so laughable but when you watch the live streams, you can see why they think like that. Ex) a dev was in imperial city and was killed by a player who parkoured there way up to the high ground at the cemetery in Memorial. It was then shadow nerfed and a invisible wall is there now.

SilverBride

Aggrovious wrote: »

Why on earth would anyone care about respecting your wishes when you are dead?

It's about respecting the person playing the character. And our characters are never dead anyway. They are just temporarily defeated.

o_Primate_o

If u don't want to be teabagged, hurry up and respawn. If you wait for a rez, it's on you.

Joy_Division

SilverBride wrote: »

BXR_Lonestar wrote: »

In a game that has PVP and actions not controlled by the Dev's, you should just expect to be teabagged at some point.

No, this is not an expectation.

I only wanted the action to stop, but now I see that there are some that will continue to do this not caring that some players are disturbed by it. At this point the best we can hope for is that eventually if there are enough warnings it will no longer be a thing.

[Edited to clarify]

If people PvP with the expectation that they will not be t-bagged, whispered, emoted upon, etc., they are in for a lot of self-induced stress. It's like signing up for high school football and expecting the opponents on the other team will refrain from foul language, not give you an elbow at the bottom of a scrum, or not try to provoke an emotional response and induce you to commit penalties or poor undisciplined play. These are competitive environments, and unlike an AI or a PvE boss, it is possible to throw human players from well practiced and disciplined play. Ever since we have historical records of organized games, anti-social behavior has always accompanied them.

A sweeping sort of ban directed toward t-bagging to be enforced consistently and punitively as you seek to get the desired goal that it will no longer be a thing is impractical: it happens too often, there has not been a GM in Cyrodiil since May 2014, and with so many cases any bans will be inconsistently applied, which will led to further complaints of unfair treatments. ZOS isn;t going to hire the personnel to possibly review the hundreds and potentially thousands of t-bagging complaints they receive on all platforms and severs, when they can;t even hire enough developers to make a decent update combat balance or new content.

If I enter into any sort of competitive setting with humans, whether that be playing cards or a physical activity such as basketball, I very much have the expectation that my opponents will say things and make illegal physical contact in order to gain an edge. Because that has always happened, even when I played in a Church basketball league (what they lack in cursing, they made up for in elbows and hard fouls). This is especially going to be true in an anonymous online setting because on a basketball court, the perpetrators of such overly aggressive verbal and physical actions know they can and will get punched in the face if they go too far.

In any sort of competition, emotions often run high, people's sense of pride are at stake, and very real rivalries form: these are states of minds when people think and act emotionally, not rationally, so these behaviors will happen regardless of enforcement level or penalties.. Of course, there are enforcement mechanisms in place and must be. People get kicked out of YMCAs and get their membership revoked. PvPers have gotten perma-banned for their actions in Cyrodiil. Enforcement mechanism are mostly about finding a line and which are the punishable actions because there is not the personnel to investigate every offensive verbal remark and extra elbow. Even if there were and these behaviors resulted in punitive bans, the YMCA would no longer be able to host basketball games and Cyrodiil would lose much of its population.

So the best advice I would give to anyone who endeavor to compete against other people in any endeavor is to recognize that since recorded history began, human beings have attempted to gain a competitive edge through anti-social behavior and breaking social norms to provoke their opponent into thinking about anything other than disciplined play. This does not mean to tolerate abusive behavior. It's just recognizing the reality that if you and every other person in Cyrodiil submit a dozen complaints, there is no way ZOS will be able to investigate all of them. Not to mention it's *very* likely such a low threshold for a ban would probably result in the complainers themselves getting banned because their definition of offensive is no doubt going to be different from what others deem offensive. The people who t-bag are doing it precisely because they want to provoke an emotional response; by showing them they have succeeded in doing so, it will make them very, very happy, which I most certainly do not want to do. So when I got t-bagged, I did nothing other than make a mental note of who it was so they get the Jesus Beam in the next fight. Again, this does not mean there is not a "red-line." I have received whispers using terrible language. These got screen shotted, reported, and there have been perma-bans.

One thing I have noticed though. Even though I am opinionated on these forums, play in organized groups, and have long been known as a someone who plays on all three factions and thus draw the anger on many faction loyalists -in short I have given multiple reasons for many people to delight in t-bagging me - it actually hardly ever happens much anymore, certainly much less so than I see happening to other players. Likely because I personally don't t-bag people and don't get offended when it happens to me, which deprives the t-baggers of the emotional response they were seeking to elicit

SilverBride

Immature taunting and mocking is not acceptable in PvP or anything else. I just hope the consequences will discourage this behavior until it's no longer a thing.

TheValkyn

Just don’t teabag other players. This is a non-issue fr. Stop trying to avoid accountability for your misbehavior.

spartaxoxo

Trash talking in video games and sports are generally considered healthy outlets for such behavior. It helps people let out frustration and tension in an environment where people are aware that it happens and aren't seriously hurt by it or have bad effects on their real life. The general rule of thumb for such things is to "leave it on the field" as in it stops immediately outside of the match, and not to cross certain social lines. What those lines are vary socially/institutionally. For example, the NFL has guidelines for touchdown dancing.

This idea that it's never acceptable to trash talk in a competitive environment is not based on how competitive environments have functioned since long before the invention of video games.

Trash talk and banter in competitive environments is fairly normal. The majority of people partaking in them don't need to do such things but it's not a small amount of people that use video games and sports as healthy outlets for aggressive feelings.

Teabagging has become the most recognizable trash talk gesture in video games and has been a normal part of PvP games for decades. It's embraced by many video game companies. I saw a site that said about 1/3rd of all players do it. Companies aren't going to ban that many people. Go into PvP in any game that has player characters that can be controlled with that information in mind.

SilverBride

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Trash talking in video games and sports are generally considered healthy outlets for such behavior.

By who? Good sportsmanship is considered healthy... toxicity never is.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

spartaxoxo wrote: »

Trash talking in video games and sports are generally considered healthy outlets for such behavior.

By who? Good sportsmanship is considered healthy... toxicity never is.

https://news.vt.edu/articles/2018/02/videgamesviolence.html

SilverBride

That article says "This finding suggests that violent video games may serve as an outlet for aggression, not a precursor.” It is referring to killing enemies etc. as an outlet for agression, not being toxic to other players.

spartaxoxo

SilverBride wrote: »

That article says "This finding suggests that violent video games may serve as an outlet for aggression, not a precursor.” It is referring to killing enemies etc. as an outlet for agression, not being toxic to other players.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749597816301157

https://www.bbc.com/worklife/article/20191010-the-surprising-benefits-and-risks-of-trash-talk

SilverBride

Oh so we are supposed to be motivated by being trash talked to? What about having another player's crotch moved up and down on our body? Is that motivating too?

The bottom line is that there is nothing beneficial to be gained by teabagging another player, but there is negativity created for those victims of teabagging that find this humiliating and disturbing.
It is a very immature gesture that serves absolutely no purpose other than whatever satisfaction the teabagging player gets from humiliating another player, which says a lot about why this should not be tolerated.
I'm disturbed that putting another player through this humiliation for no good reason at all is being defended.

BagOfBadgers

All that we say on here is moot anyway. ZOS have the final say and have put their decision in the ToS.

SilverBride

@ZOS_Kevin @ZOS_GinaBruno

Please take another look at how to better protect players that are being negatively affected by this. It is too difficult for these players to meet the requirements for making a report and there needs to be a better system in place for doing so.

BagOfBadgers

SilverBride wrote: »

Oh so we are supposed to be motivated by being trash talked to? What about having another player's crotch moved up and down on our body? Is that motivating too?

The bottom line is that there is nothing beneficial to be gained by teabagging another player, but there is negativity created for those victims of teabagging that find this humiliating and disturbing.
It is a very immature gesture that serves absolutely no purpose other than whatever satisfaction the teabagging player gets from humiliating another player, which says a lot about why this should not be tolerated.
I'm disturbed that putting another player through this humiliation for no good reason at all is being defended.

This is not a defence but everyone who wants TB'ing gone, knowingly bought TESO and knew PvP was part of that and the possiblty of being TB'ed.

@SilverBride this is a quote you made in the Arachnophobia mode discussion;

"I do not find it reasonable to willingly purchase a game that a player knows has something in it that causes them distress, then expect the game to customize it to them personally." What's different between this and Arachnophobia?

SilverBride

BagOfBadgers wrote: »

@SilverBride this is a quote you made in the Arachnophobia mode discussion;

"I do not find it reasonable to willingly purchase a game that a player knows has something in it that causes them distress, then expect the game to customize it to them personally." What's different between this and Arachnophobia?

Virtually every MMO in existance has spiders and players know this before purchasing a game.

Teabagging is something I never once saw in any other game I played before coming to ESO. Maybe it was there, but I did a lot of PvP in other games and never encountered it. So this was not an expectation that I would encounter this, and I assume others were not aware of this practice either.

Also, no one is asking for any alterations to the game structure to deal with this. Teabagging is completely controlled by the player, and it's the attitude toward teabagging that needs to change.

spartaxoxo

Well, it being disturbing is your own personal opinion. So, no that's not what I or anyone who disagrees with you is doing. I don't agree with you that it's disturbing and have shown plenty of evidence to the contrary that shows why I don't (the real dictionary definition, gameplay footage, scientific studies about trash talk or video games in general, history, etc.) You are free to hold your opinion about it and not find the evidence compelling, of course.

I don't expect anyone to share my opinion. (edit: There's plenty of reason not to agree like the origin, how it makes some people feel, the name, etc.) I simply feel it is important to voice when people advocate for policy change. Because, inherently, what a policy that results in bans does is forces conformity in behavior and a singular interpretation. This isn't automatically bad but must be exercised with a large amount of caution. There needs to be something a lot more clear cut than some players don't like it IMO. Policy formation is when I think that it is important to look at it with an evidence based approach.

SilverBride

There is a very expllcit definition online, the original definition of this term, and not just pertaining to gaming, but it is way too explicit to post here.

And I never saw anything in any of these articles stating that there is anything positive in performing a simulated lewd act on another player, so they are not evidence that this is an accepted or beneficial practice.

Others can think what they want but puprosely humuliating another player should never be tolerated. Period. And I hope they take another look at this practice and what can be done for players to defend themselves from it.