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Nightblade changes
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spaceghost8✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.spaceghost8 wrote: »
Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t
It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.spaceghost8 wrote: »Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?
Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.
You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.
You didn’t answer any of my questions but okay…
On your last paragraph, you are missing a huge point… the fact that you are a NB main and you don’t have to deal with other NBs… I play nightblade as well sometimes and for the most part we ignore each other, sometimes even gank the same person whilst we on opposite teams1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭spaceghost8 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.spaceghost8 wrote: »
Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t
It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.spaceghost8 wrote: »Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?
Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.
You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.
You didn’t answer any of my questions but okay…
On your last paragraph, you are missing a huge point… the fact that you are a NB main and you don’t have to deal with other NBs… I play nightblade as well sometimes and for the most part we ignore each other, sometimes even gank the same person whilst we on opposite teams
What you just said is so bizarre to me. I actively hunt other nightblades first and that's how it works for most of us. At least in GH on XB. If that's what's happening on PC (I don't hop on there often) then that's a PC problem and they need to stop being cowards. That's like ball groups farming the same third faction zerg rather than fight one another.
And I did answer your questions.I drink and I stream things.3 -
Caecus0✭✭✭spaceghost8 wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
Bug Fixes aren't nerfs. They were never supposed to do that to begin with.
Crying out for bug fixes is not the same as crying out for nerfs.
The definition of nerf is to take an ability or set that was good at something and weaken it… these fits the description, it was good at taking NBs out of stealth now not anymore… funny how out of all the points I made this is your talking points… I take it u agree with everything else?
You're splitting hairs. Most players don't conceptualize fixing known bugs as nerfs or buffs because they know they will eventually be fixed. Some players will even go out of their way to avoid exploiting beneficial bugs because they don't want to crutch them if they know it will eventually be fixed. I don't think Sorc players would call it a nerf if Streak could make them go through walls under certain circumstances and it got fixed. It's fine you conceptualize bug fixes as nerfs or buffs, but most players don't. It really doesn't matter.
To your point that everything that negatively affects NBs eventually gets nerfed... I don't even know why you think this. Other users have already went into detail why this is just flat out wrong. One such example is how detection has been buffed repeatedly. Another example how Cloak used to be absolutely insane and got nerfed repeatedly, to which your own retort was:spaceghost8 wrote: »
What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂
You are acknowledging Nightblades are getting nerfed while simultaneously stating that anything that negatively affects nightblades gets nerfed:spaceghost8 wrote: »This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
It's hard to agree or disagree with anything you say since you don't seem to keep your stance consistent. Please make your stance clear and be reasonable.
My stance remains the same: Toggles in this game are janky and if Cloak needs a nerf, a ramping cost is reasonable since it would be similar to Streak, on the condition they fixed some of the DoTs that removed it. They fixed them (thanks again @Turtle_Bot ), so I'm more than open to a scaling Magicka cost increase. Honestly it's necessary and would hurt the Cloak spammers while leaving alone the people who use it sparingly.Edited by Caecus0 on October 4, 2024 9:52PM4 -
Caecus0✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.spaceghost8 wrote: »
Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t
It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.spaceghost8 wrote: »Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?
Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.
You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.
You didn’t answer any of my questions but okay…
On your last paragraph, you are missing a huge point… the fact that you are a NB main and you don’t have to deal with other NBs… I play nightblade as well sometimes and for the most part we ignore each other, sometimes even gank the same person whilst we on opposite teams
What you just said is so bizarre to me. I actively hunt other nightblades first and that's how it works for most of us. At least in GH on XB. If that's what's happening on PC (I don't hop on there often) then that's a PC problem and they need to stop being cowards. That's like ball groups farming the same third faction zerg rather than fight one another.
And I did answer your questions.
To add to your point, while I understand WHY people hate fighting NBs, it's mostly a skill issue. I play other classes, but I main NB, and to no surprise NBs give me the least trouble when I play other classes. Here is what I do:
1) Bring a Reveal. Literally any reveal. Most reveal skills provide benefits beyond their ability to reveal stealthies, so there is no reason to not bring them. If you can't fit one in your build, a wide-reaching direct damage AoE will suffice if you're good.
2) Fine-tune your build. If you are running around with 20k Health and no defense sets, you're going to have trouble against ANY class, but you will likely have more trouble with NBs.
3) Right-click or time dodges when they stealth. NBs try to wombo combo with Incap > Spectral Arrow, and Incap can be blocked. Dodging it is also easy if you listen for the sound it makes during the 0.5 second cast window. If that wombo combo fails and you are even remotely durable, they're not killing you.
I follow these rules religiously on every class I play with in PvP and it never fails as long as I don't screw up.Edited by Caecus0 on October 5, 2024 3:29AM5 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.spaceghost8 wrote: »
Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t
It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.spaceghost8 wrote: »Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?
Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.
You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.
You didn’t answer any of my questions but okay…
On your last paragraph, you are missing a huge point… the fact that you are a NB main and you don’t have to deal with other NBs… I play nightblade as well sometimes and for the most part we ignore each other, sometimes even gank the same person whilst we on opposite teams
What you just said is so bizarre to me. I actively hunt other nightblades first and that's how it works for most of us. At least in GH on XB. If that's what's happening on PC (I don't hop on there often) then that's a PC problem and they need to stop being cowards. That's like ball groups farming the same third faction zerg rather than fight one another.
And I did answer your questions.
To add to your point, while I understand WHY people hate fighting NBs, it's mostly a skill issue. I other classes but main NB, and to no surprise NBs give me the least trouble. Here is what I do:
1) Bring a Reveal. Literally any reveal. Most reveal skills provide benefits beyond their ability to reveal stealthies, so there is no reason to not bring them. If you can't fit one in your build, a wide-reaching direct damage AoE will suffice if you're good.
2) Fine-tune your build. If you are running around with 20k Health and no defense sets, you're going to have trouble against ANY class, but you will likely have more trouble with NBs.
3) Right-click or time dodges when they stealth. NBs try to wombo combo with Incap > Spectral Arrow, and Incap can be blocked. Dodging it is also easy if you listen for the sound it makes during the 0.5 second cast window. If that wombo combo fails and you are even remotely durable, they're not killing you.
I follow these rules religiously on every class I play with in PvP and it never fails as long as I don't screw up.
All of this is great advice. The problem is some players refuse to do any of that, and then get mad when they get killed.
This would be like me just standing around on a flag, not even blocking, only to get a colossus dropped on me and then complain that Necros are too strong.
No, I made the mistake. My character died because of it. I respawned with all my gear and nothing of value was lost except my pride.I drink and I stream things.2 -
spaceghost8✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.spaceghost8 wrote: »
Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t
It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.spaceghost8 wrote: »Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?
Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.
You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.
You didn’t answer any of my questions but okay…
On your last paragraph, you are missing a huge point… the fact that you are a NB main and you don’t have to deal with other NBs… I play nightblade as well sometimes and for the most part we ignore each other, sometimes even gank the same person whilst we on opposite teams
What you just said is so bizarre to me. I actively hunt other nightblades first and that's how it works for most of us. At least in GH on XB. If that's what's happening on PC (I don't hop on there often) then that's a PC problem and they need to stop being cowards. That's like ball groups farming the same third faction zerg rather than fight one another.
And I did answer your questions.
No u didn’t, I’ll repeat them, see if you’ll answer this time…
1. Are you saying cloak isn’t broken?
2. Are you saying corrosive and rending masters dual wield wasn’t the best against gankers…
3. Were these skills harder or easier to counter than cloak? They got nerfed but cloak hasn’t
4. Do you disagree that in order to fight nightblades effectively you have to be a specialist? Have high health high resistances, rallying cry, detect potions or cast mages/fighters guild skills that r expensive, have a short range and short duration etc
Keyword is have to, u don’t have to … For the most part you see a nightblade, they see you, you cloak they cloak and you both go about your business this how it always happens, NB mains r just focused on raking up numbers so if they deem you a difficult target they will go bother someone else
This is why most opt for high resistances and high health, the tank meta that I see a few nightblade players complaining about here on the forums which is just funny to me
Nightblade mains think everyone only plays 1 class in pvp like them… try out other classes run a few battlegrounds, run around in imperial city and go to cyrodil solo and then come back and tell me nightblades aren’t broken, cloak and guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak specificallyEdited by spaceghost8 on October 5, 2024 10:40AM0 -
spaceghost8✭✭✭spaceghost8 wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
Bug Fixes aren't nerfs. They were never supposed to do that to begin with.
Crying out for bug fixes is not the same as crying out for nerfs.
The definition of nerf is to take an ability or set that was good at something and weaken it… these fits the description, it was good at taking NBs out of stealth now not anymore… funny how out of all the points I made this is your talking points… I take it u agree with everything else?
You're splitting hairs. Most players don't conceptualize fixing known bugs as nerfs or buffs because they know they will eventually be fixed. Some players will even go out of their way to avoid exploiting beneficial bugs because they don't want to crutch them if they know it will eventually be fixed. I don't think Sorc players would call it a nerf if Streak could make them go through walls under certain circumstances and it got fixed. It's fine you conceptualize bug fixes as nerfs or buffs, but most players don't. It really doesn't matter.
To your point that everything that negatively affects NBs eventually gets nerfed... I don't even know why you think this. Other users have already went into detail why this is just flat out wrong. One such example is how detection has been buffed repeatedly. Another example how Cloak used to be absolutely insane and got nerfed repeatedly, to which your own retort was:spaceghost8 wrote: »
What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂
You are acknowledging Nightblades are getting nerfed while simultaneously stating that anything that negatively affects nightblades gets nerfed:spaceghost8 wrote: »This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
It's hard to agree or disagree with anything you say since you don't seem to keep your stance consistent. Please make your stance clear and be reasonable.
My stance remains the same: Toggles in this game are janky and if Cloak needs a nerf, a ramping cost is reasonable since it would be similar to Streak, on the condition they fixed some of the DoTs that removed it. They fixed them (thanks again @Turtle_Bot ), so I'm more than open to a scaling Magicka cost increase. Honestly it's necessary and would hurt the Cloak spammers while leaving alone the people who use it sparingly.
Please don’t put words in my mouth, that is kind of infuriating… thank you
My stance hasn’t changed and I didn’t acknowledge any nerf to the nightblade, my whole thing is they need nerfed…
I don’t care if it’s toggle or ramping up cost just remove recovery whilst in cloak and remove the guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak0 -
Caecus0✭✭✭spaceghost8 wrote: »
Please don’t put words in my mouth, that is kind of infuriating… thank you
My stance hasn’t changed and I didn’t acknowledge any nerf to the nightblade, my whole thing is they need nerfed…
I don’t care if it’s toggle or ramping up cost just remove recovery whilst in cloak and remove the guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak
I literally quoted you. Please don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth when I literally quoted you. It is as you say, infuriating. You literally responded to a user that pointed out that Cloak used to be ALOT more powerful and has been on the receiving end of repeated nerfs by saying: "What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂". Since you responded to it, I assumed you at least read the post and acknowledged it. If you are telling me you didn't actually acknowledge it after reading and responding to it, then whoopsie for me, I guess.
Otherwise your stance is clearer. I Don't agree with removing the guaranteed crit from stealth, at least not yet. I would rather they deal with Proc sets first. But I agree with the ramping cost if that is good enough for you over the toggle. If you're cool with that, then I'm cool with that.
I think it is fair to say that a ramping cost is a less janky and fair way to nerf Cloak at the very least. I hope ZoS sees that.1 -
spaceghost8✭✭✭spaceghost8 wrote: »
Please don’t put words in my mouth, that is kind of infuriating… thank you
My stance hasn’t changed and I didn’t acknowledge any nerf to the nightblade, my whole thing is they need nerfed…
I don’t care if it’s toggle or ramping up cost just remove recovery whilst in cloak and remove the guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak
I literally quoted you. Please don't accuse me of putting words in your mouth when I literally quoted you. It is as you say, infuriating. You literally responded to a user that pointed out that Cloak used to be ALOT more powerful and has been on the receiving end of repeated nerfs by saying: "What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂". Since you responded to it, I assumed you at least read the post and acknowledged it. If you are telling me you didn't actually acknowledge it after reading and responding to it, then whoopsie for me, I guess.
Otherwise your stance is clearer. I Don't agree with removing the guaranteed crit from stealth, at least not yet. I would rather they deal with Proc sets first. But I agree with the ramping cost if that is good enough for you over the toggle. If you're cool with that, then I'm cool with that.
I think it is fair to say that a ramping cost is a less janky and fair way to nerf Cloak at the very least. I hope ZoS sees that.
😂 noooo don’t lie, the fact that cloak was more powerful back then it’s not a good thing for u, coz it’s still powerful now… y hasn’t it got balanced… you didn’t quote nada 😂 stop lying bro and actually make make good points…
Tell me how my stance changed.. tell me how I acknowledge a nerf… these r 2 of ur points and I’m saying they belong on the bin0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭spaceghost8 wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
Bug Fixes aren't nerfs. They were never supposed to do that to begin with.
Crying out for bug fixes is not the same as crying out for nerfs.
The definition of nerf is to take an ability or set that was good at something and weaken it… these fits the description, it was good at taking NBs out of stealth now not anymore… funny how out of all the points I made this is your talking points… I take it u agree with everything else?
You're splitting hairs. Most players don't conceptualize fixing known bugs as nerfs or buffs because they know they will eventually be fixed. Some players will even go out of their way to avoid exploiting beneficial bugs because they don't want to crutch them if they know it will eventually be fixed. I don't think Sorc players would call it a nerf if Streak could make them go through walls under certain circumstances and it got fixed. It's fine you conceptualize bug fixes as nerfs or buffs, but most players don't. It really doesn't matter.
To your point that everything that negatively affects NBs eventually gets nerfed... I don't even know why you think this. Other users have already went into detail why this is just flat out wrong. One such example is how detection has been buffed repeatedly. Another example how Cloak used to be absolutely insane and got nerfed repeatedly, to which your own retort was:spaceghost8 wrote: »
What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂
You are acknowledging Nightblades are getting nerfed while simultaneously stating that anything that negatively affects nightblades gets nerfed:spaceghost8 wrote: »This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed
It's hard to agree or disagree with anything you say since you don't seem to keep your stance consistent. Please make your stance clear and be reasonable.
My stance remains the same: Toggles in this game are janky and if Cloak needs a nerf, a ramping cost is reasonable since it would be similar to Streak, on the condition they fixed some of the DoTs that removed it. They fixed them (thanks again @Turtle_Bot ), so I'm more than open to a scaling Magicka cost increase. Honestly it's necessary and would hurt the Cloak spammers while leaving alone the people who use it sparingly.
Please don’t put words in my mouth, that is kind of infuriating… thank you
My stance hasn’t changed and I didn’t acknowledge any nerf to the nightblade, my whole thing is they need nerfed…
I don’t care if it’s toggle or ramping up cost just remove recovery whilst in cloak and remove the guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak
I did answer. I'll answer again.
1. I said it is broken, just not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Guards especially mess with it. It's always fun to be sneaking crouched, hit shadowy, have shadowy expired, and you're standing up because a guard you walked past caused it to bug out.
2. I did answer this. It was best against everyone. That is why it was brought back down a little.
3. Are you seriously suggesting corrosive was/is easier to counter than cloak? C'mon.
4. Yes, I do disagree. You don't have to be a "specialist." You just have to be smart and do basic things. Even if it is such a burden for you to use detect pots when there are likely to be nightblades around (it's rather obvious. Plus you can see it when they kill other players nearby), and even if it such a burden to keep a detect skill handy (that have other beneficial effects), you can still practice smart defense and not be a sitting duck when you are practicing lazy defense.
Seriously, if you think you have to run Rallying Cry to fight Nightblades, then you're revealing that the issue here isn't nightblades. It's that you want to play in a very specific box, and that specific box is exploitable by burst damage out of stealth. You can either change up your TACTICS (not your build), or you can continue to be upset when your character is killed.
I hate using the "learn to play" phrase, because I think more often than not it doesn't apply, but in this instance, I think it does. You have been given rather good advice by multiple people but you refuse to consider it for various reasons that basically come down to "I don't wanna." Fair enough, but that's a you problem, not a me problem.
I don't care if you run high health and high resistances. I don't complain about that. I have said multiple times to lower damage and healing in battle spirit. I also think you should receive a damage nerf of 2% for each piece of heavy armor. There is too much damage that is too accessible to both glass cannons like me, and tank DDs who skirt around on vX builds that take 10 cannons to kill.
You wanna play a tank, go right ahead. You want to get mad when you die because someone found a way around that? Go right ahead. But your accusation that they are only succeeding because something is "broken" is blaming everyone but your own abilities and stubbornness.
And for the record, I started out in PVP playing templar DD and a defile warden tank. I played every class for a long time until I no longer had 8 hours to kill on a video game every day. I had to focus on one. The guild I was in at the time was teaching NB. I enjoyed it. It was the class I stuck with. I still use every other class in PVE, BGs and occasionally IC when I have free time. I use templar DD more than any of the other classes. Warden is still my favorite tank but I will always love my necro.I drink and I stream things.5 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice...
I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums.... 
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.2 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"I drink and I stream things.3 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
Edited by Galeriano2 on October 6, 2024 10:33AM2 -
Caecus0✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
I am tempted to write more on this because I feel like you are just being dismissive, but it isn't worth the effort. I just want to address the point of this thread:
I don't care if Cloak gets nerfed. I just don't want there to be a toggle because toggles in this game are usually janky. I'd be fine with a scaling Magicka cost because it would punish Cloak spammers who use it for perma-invis, which is the objective set out by the devs in their note, while also avoiding the jank of a toggle. No weird jank, no permanent invis, punishes Cloak spammers. It's really that simple.Edited by Caecus0 on October 6, 2024 4:28PM1 -
Parasaurolophus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Many people have expressed their opinions here in great detail, but I will be brief. You have problems with nb - it means you have problems with skill. Seriously. Heavy meta has been ruling the score for several years now, but there are still people who can't handle nb.PC/EU5 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭Shadowasrial wrote: »If this change goes live I will most certainly be quitting eso. And I have spent upwards of 25 grand on this game during the past 10 years iv played. Iv played nightblade exclusively. I have played every aspect of nightblade there is and if this goes live its going to kill the nb population in PvP which is already at record low numbers since cyrodil hasn’t gotten any love in at least 6 years. And all before a new battleground system I was super excited to try. Cloak in PvP is the core defense and offensive tool in combat. We use it to heal, we use it to line up an attack we use it to escape we use it to position ourselves for a quick scroll grab. This skill is the soul of the nightblades kit in PvP. To change it like this is just plain sacrilegious. How are we supposed to effectively weave attacks when our only defense doesn’t allow recovery? And in magika nb’s case it will greatly affect offensive and defensive capabilities. Now if they wish to cloak and line up an attack they will be greatly handicapping themselves on resources just to get close to the target and then if you line up your attack and IT FAILS thanks to no magika recovery you can’t escape, you can’t heal and you can’t continue to apply pressure. If you fail to kill your target while using cloak your going to die because we all know out of resources means death in PvP.
There are other games coming out next year that I will happily invest in if this goes live. This game has been my core game for 10 years and if they ruin my class like this then I’m going to up and take my money to my second favorite game monster hunter. With monster hunter wilds shaping up to be the best monster hunter game ever if this change goes live I will have next to no reason to return to eso.
I really recommend trying a tanky Dark cloak build with sword and board back bar. Ambush for gap closing.
I'm loving brawling face to face with stamblade.1 -
NArt✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Shadowasrial wrote: »If this change goes live I will most certainly be quitting eso. And I have spent upwards of 25 grand on this game during the past 10 years iv played. Iv played nightblade exclusively. I have played every aspect of nightblade there is and if this goes live its going to kill the nb population in PvP which is already at record low numbers since cyrodil hasn’t gotten any love in at least 6 years. And all before a new battleground system I was super excited to try. Cloak in PvP is the core defense and offensive tool in combat. We use it to heal, we use it to line up an attack we use it to escape we use it to position ourselves for a quick scroll grab. This skill is the soul of the nightblades kit in PvP. To change it like this is just plain sacrilegious. How are we supposed to effectively weave attacks when our only defense doesn’t allow recovery? And in magika nb’s case it will greatly affect offensive and defensive capabilities. Now if they wish to cloak and line up an attack they will be greatly handicapping themselves on resources just to get close to the target and then if you line up your attack and IT FAILS thanks to no magika recovery you can’t escape, you can’t heal and you can’t continue to apply pressure. If you fail to kill your target while using cloak your going to die because we all know out of resources means death in PvP.
There are other games coming out next year that I will happily invest in if this goes live. This game has been my core game for 10 years and if they ruin my class like this then I’m going to up and take my money to my second favorite game monster hunter. With monster hunter wilds shaping up to be the best monster hunter game ever if this change goes live I will have next to no reason to return to eso.
I really recommend trying a tanky Dark cloak build with sword and board back bar. Ambush for gap closing.
I'm loving brawling face to face with stamblade.
The guy writes very correct information. I too have been playing NB for 5 years and have tried everything I can think of. And of course, tried to get rid of invisibility because it is a very weak and unreliable skill. Can't play tank in pvp (shield + shadow heal), very weak. And I haven't met a single NB that is strong in this build. In all the time I have not met.1 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
I am tempted to write more on this because I feel like you are just being dismissive, but it isn't worth the effort. I just want to address the point of this thread:
I don't care if Cloak gets nerfed. I just don't want there to be a toggle because toggles in this game are usually janky. I'd be fine with a scaling Magicka cost because it would punish Cloak spammers who use it for perma-invis, which is the objective set out by the devs in their note, while also avoiding the jank of a toggle. No weird jank, no permanent invis, punishes Cloak spammers. It's really that simple.
Toggles are only janky if You don't know how to use them or You panically mash the button. Sorc has a toggle on overload for years now, he have abilities with ramping cost, caps on abilities values, cast times etc, yet it is still considered one of the strongest classes. Nightblade is going to recive first noticable built-in drawback and the whole nb population cries like its end of the world.
At the end of the day for certain nightblade playstyles which are ironically most used right now this change will be a a masssive buff which is a problem of itself.Edited by Galeriano2 on October 7, 2024 9:42AM2 -
NArt✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
I am tempted to write more on this because I feel like you are just being dismissive, but it isn't worth the effort. I just want to address the point of this thread:
I don't care if Cloak gets nerfed. I just don't want there to be a toggle because toggles in this game are usually janky. I'd be fine with a scaling Magicka cost because it would punish Cloak spammers who use it for perma-invis, which is the objective set out by the devs in their note, while also avoiding the jank of a toggle. No weird jank, no permanent invis, punishes Cloak spammers. It's really that simple.
Toggles are only janky if You don't know how to use them or You panically mash the button. Sorc has a toggle on overload for years now, he have abilities with ramping cost, caps on abilities values, cast times etc, yet it is still considered one of the strongest classes. Nightblade is going to recive first noticable built-in drawback and the whole nb population cries like its end of the world.
At the end of the day for certain nightblade playstyles which are ironically most used right now this change will be a a masssive buff which is a problem of itself.
Does NB have native shields for 15k like sorc?
Does NB have damage that ignores block and tumble like sorc?
Is there a 33% penalty? Teleportation costs 3000 mana, which is 3999 mana. Do you often use 5 teleportations in a row?
Indeed, sorc is so “weak” that as soon as the class change token comes out, the first thing I'll do is change NB to battle mage (and I'm willing to pay 30,000 crowns for it). That's how “weak” the sorc is.Edited by NArt on October 7, 2024 10:02AM4 -
Muizer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Nightblade is going to recive first noticable built-in drawback and the whole nb population cries like its end of the world.
I appreciate you acknowledge that the toggle will make game play more complicated. Perhaps not unplayable, but more complicated nonetheless.
Aren't you the least bit concerned with ZOS taking such an approach to nerfs?
I am. I also find it bizarrely incongruous with the comparatively recent changes to Grim Focus, which did the opposite.Edited by Muizer on October 7, 2024 12:47PMPlease stop making requests for game features. ZOS have enough bad ideas as it is!0 -
bladenick✭✭✭Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?3 -
ZOS_IcymodGreetings,
We have recently removed some unnecessary back and forth from this thread. This is a reminder to keep the discussion civil and constructive. Please keep our Community Rules in mind moving forward.
Thank you for your understanding.0 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
I am tempted to write more on this because I feel like you are just being dismissive, but it isn't worth the effort. I just want to address the point of this thread:
I don't care if Cloak gets nerfed. I just don't want there to be a toggle because toggles in this game are usually janky. I'd be fine with a scaling Magicka cost because it would punish Cloak spammers who use it for perma-invis, which is the objective set out by the devs in their note, while also avoiding the jank of a toggle. No weird jank, no permanent invis, punishes Cloak spammers. It's really that simple.
Toggles are only janky if You don't know how to use them or You panically mash the button. Sorc has a toggle on overload for years now, he have abilities with ramping cost, caps on abilities values, cast times etc, yet it is still considered one of the strongest classes. Nightblade is going to recive first noticable built-in drawback and the whole nb population cries like its end of the world.
At the end of the day for certain nightblade playstyles which are ironically most used right now this change will be a a masssive buff which is a problem of itself.
Does NB have native shields for 15k like sorc?
Does NB have damage that ignores block and tumble like sorc?
Is there a 33% penalty? Teleportation costs 3000 mana, which is 3999 mana. Do you often use 5 teleportations in a row?
Indeed, sorc is so “weak” that as soon as the class change token comes out, the first thing I'll do is change NB to battle mage (and I'm willing to pay 30,000 crowns for it). That's how “weak” the sorc is.
Yes You can have a 15k shield on a nb. Fact that it wont be coming from a nb kit doesn't change much since it''s not the shield value that makes sorc's shield strong but the heal added to it. Sorc was capable to reach 15k+ shield on hardened ward for a long time and prior to adding heal to it magsorc was considered as mediocre for quite some time.
Sorc no longer has a noticable source of unblockable damage ever since curse lost that feature. Yes nightblade have a a damage that ignores dodge namely soul tether ulti and power extraction. Both sorc and nightblade have a stun that ignores block and dodge.
Belive me if there wouldn't be a ramping cost on streak You would be seeing lots of sorcs spamming it like crazy like they were doing when it had its original less impactfull drawback in the past. Sorc's don't overspam streak not because they don;t feel the need for it but because they no longer can.
I literally said in my comment that sorc is considered as one of the strongest classes so I don't know what point You're even trying to make. It's almost like nightblade players go into some nightblade defense mode any time sorc can be mentioned. As for a class change token You do realise You can just make new character right?1 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?
Or You can just perform an action that ends cloak? As far as resource managment goes using siphoning attacks+rally will be a childs play after changes to cloak and that combo will allow You to stay in cloak almost permanently on any type of nightblade.Edited by Galeriano2 on October 7, 2024 9:12PM2 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?
Or You can just perform an action that ends cloak? As far as resource managment goes using siphoning attacks+rally will be a childs play after changes to cloak and that combo will allow You to stay in cloak almost permanently on any type of nightblade.
I like how you thing things will work in time to keep up cloak and/or properly decloak and that toggle will work correctlyPCNA
PCEU1 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?
Or You can just perform an action that ends cloak? As far as resource managment goes using siphoning attacks+rally will be a childs play after changes to cloak and that combo will allow You to stay in cloak almost permanently on any type of nightblade.
I like how you thing things will work in time to keep up cloak and/or properly decloak and that toggle will work correctly
They work properly and correctly on PTS atm.1 -
blktauna✭✭✭✭✭
✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?
Or You can just perform an action that ends cloak? As far as resource managment goes using siphoning attacks+rally will be a childs play after changes to cloak and that combo will allow You to stay in cloak almost permanently on any type of nightblade.
I like how you thing things will work in time to keep up cloak and/or properly decloak and that toggle will work correctly
They work properly and correctly on PTS atm.
with no load. The horror of live will make anything requiring timing useless.PCNA
PCEU3 -
Galeriano2✭✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Toggle is horrible , as you need switch skill bar or slot cloak in both bar, that does make its easy to use, especially for PvP resource management
Why not Keep current cloak just remove mag recovery ?
Or You can just perform an action that ends cloak? As far as resource managment goes using siphoning attacks+rally will be a childs play after changes to cloak and that combo will allow You to stay in cloak almost permanently on any type of nightblade.
I like how you thing things will work in time to keep up cloak and/or properly decloak and that toggle will work correctly
They work properly and correctly on PTS atm.
with no load. The horror of live will make anything requiring timing useless.
Oh the misery of using abilities properly on live server and facing the consequences of server load. I bet no other class experiences it.3 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭LittlePinkDot wrote: »Shadowasrial wrote: »If this change goes live I will most certainly be quitting eso. And I have spent upwards of 25 grand on this game during the past 10 years iv played. Iv played nightblade exclusively. I have played every aspect of nightblade there is and if this goes live its going to kill the nb population in PvP which is already at record low numbers since cyrodil hasn’t gotten any love in at least 6 years. And all before a new battleground system I was super excited to try. Cloak in PvP is the core defense and offensive tool in combat. We use it to heal, we use it to line up an attack we use it to escape we use it to position ourselves for a quick scroll grab. This skill is the soul of the nightblades kit in PvP. To change it like this is just plain sacrilegious. How are we supposed to effectively weave attacks when our only defense doesn’t allow recovery? And in magika nb’s case it will greatly affect offensive and defensive capabilities. Now if they wish to cloak and line up an attack they will be greatly handicapping themselves on resources just to get close to the target and then if you line up your attack and IT FAILS thanks to no magika recovery you can’t escape, you can’t heal and you can’t continue to apply pressure. If you fail to kill your target while using cloak your going to die because we all know out of resources means death in PvP.
There are other games coming out next year that I will happily invest in if this goes live. This game has been my core game for 10 years and if they ruin my class like this then I’m going to up and take my money to my second favorite game monster hunter. With monster hunter wilds shaping up to be the best monster hunter game ever if this change goes live I will have next to no reason to return to eso.
I really recommend trying a tanky Dark cloak build with sword and board back bar. Ambush for gap closing.
I'm loving brawling face to face with stamblade.
The guy writes very correct information. I too have been playing NB for 5 years and have tried everything I can think of. And of course, tried to get rid of invisibility because it is a very weak and unreliable skill. Can't play tank in pvp (shield + shadow heal), very weak. And I haven't met a single NB that is strong in this build. In all the time I have not met.
Then scribing happened... Now it's possible.2 -
Caecus0✭✭✭Galeriano2 wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Galeriano2 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.spaceghost8 wrote: »Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.Turtle_Bot wrote: »spaceghost8 wrote: »
Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight
Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.
Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest
Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half
The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).
Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.
Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.
Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.
The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.
I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.
I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....
The thing about cloak when it launched is that detect pot could keep basically 100% uptime. RAdiant magelight was also stronger back than since it was protecting the user and his allies from a stiun and critical attack from stealth.
Cloak never had a negative effect removal like purge but just a DoT removal. It was removing up to 5 DoTs at rank IV. Yeah ZoS always wanted for cloak to have some kind of DoT prevention because otherwise keeping nightblade out of cloak would be pretty easy especially considering that DoT in earlier days were tricking once every 0,5-1 second. Problem with cloak removing 5 DoTs was that initially it was simply too strong because people didn't had acces to lot of DoTs and especially more DoT oriented classthat Dk was couldn't do anything to nightblade because with 1 tap of a button nightblade could remove something that Dk was working for 4+ seconds to apply. So ZoS started to increase amount of DoTs available to players but that caused 5 DoT removal to be too weak when attacked by multiple opponents while still too strong against one opponent so ZoS had to figure something out
That something was DoT supression. But this also had its shortcoming because when more DoT oriented metas started to roam the Cyrodill, nightblade's cloak once again became too strong. Keep in mind that was in times when DoTs lasted for like 6-10 seconds so nightblade could pretty much nulify someones whole DoT rotation with 2 cloaks while his DoTs were ticking on the enemy so new changes were required.
It was never an issue with coding cloak properly, ZoS was simply adjusting how cloak dot prevention fits into state of the game balance. yes bugs were happening along the way but that's nothing ususual and basically every game mechanic stumbled upon bugs at some point.
Invisibility mechanic changes because the game is changing. Despite the sentiment of many players the reality is that nightblade got plethora of buffs that made playing it much easier while many drawbacks that class had got removed (for example old detect pots, no acces to spammable burst heals, AoE DoTs working against cloak) so in order to balance stealth playstyle new drawbacks are needed.
I don't recall detect pots having a 45 second reveal. Even still, considering now annoyed so many people are about having to carry them at all, I'm willing to say it still wouldn't be good enough.
Secondly, Radiant Mage Light: You also prevent the stun from stealth attacks for you and nearby allies. That is still a thing.
Everything else you wrote is simply not true. All of the direct and indirect nerfs to NBs have been listed. I'll give them again, with their usual complaints.
Detect pots buffed.
"But I don't want to use them."
"I don't want to run a skill for Brutality/Sorcery."
"15 seconds? I need at least 60!"
Detect skills buffed.
"But I don't want to slot them."
"Too expensive."
Stealth detection CP.
"I didn't even know that existed."
Numerous sets used by NBs nerfed in damage or had their condition changed to be unusable.
"NBs should only be allowed to run Hundings/Julianos and Spriggans/Spinners while I run around in proc sets."
New sets that would work well on NBs have added conditions to prevent them being used by NBs.
"See above!"
Sets added that specifically deter stealth attacks.
"Too niche! If I wanted to roll dodge I'd go do gymnastics!"
In eary days of the game majority of effects on pots like speed, HoT healing and detect had a base unbuffed duration of 36 seconds. Detection was actually the first one to be shortened.
I said radiant was pereventing stun AND critical dmg from stealth.
It's really funny to read all this complaints about sources of detection like cloak would be the only defense nightblade has and only thing that allows nightblade to play. In reality every nightblade have currently plethora of tools to defend themselves effectively against sources of detection and to avoid death while detected but obviously majority of nightblades wont use those tools which makes posts like this above highly ironicall and comical.
I wont even go over the fact how silly majority of arguments in the post above is since all of that was already disproven many times in different threads but nightblades just preffer to live in their bubble.
I am tempted to write more on this because I feel like you are just being dismissive, but it isn't worth the effort. I just want to address the point of this thread:
I don't care if Cloak gets nerfed. I just don't want there to be a toggle because toggles in this game are usually janky. I'd be fine with a scaling Magicka cost because it would punish Cloak spammers who use it for perma-invis, which is the objective set out by the devs in their note, while also avoiding the jank of a toggle. No weird jank, no permanent invis, punishes Cloak spammers. It's really that simple.
Toggles are only janky if You don't know how to use them or You panically mash the button. Sorc has a toggle on overload for years now, he have abilities with ramping cost, caps on abilities values, cast times etc, yet it is still considered one of the strongest classes. Nightblade is going to recive first noticable built-in drawback and the whole nb population cries like its end of the world.
At the end of the day for certain nightblade playstyles which are ironically most used right now this change will be a a masssive buff which is a problem of itself.
Toggles are only janky if you don't know how to use them? Only if you panic press the button? Certain playstyles are buffed?
Alright, there is a lot to unpack here.
Toggles are almost always janky in this game because of the weapon swap mechanic and latency issues these servers experience. Some Toggles may not feel as janky because the costs of the skills may be measured differently. For example, Ash Cloud is a toggle, but it isn't implemented poorly. It costs ONLY 351 Magicka every ONE second, and it doesn't disable Magicka Regen. You could literally leave it on and only notice it once you realize you aren't regenerating Magicka as quickly. Overload costs Ultimate PER ATTACK. You can activate Overload and literally stand there, and it will cost you no additional Ultimate. Cloak is going to cost 3200 Magicka every TWO seconds, creating an odd dynamic where 2 seconds will cost you that 3200 Magicka, but 3 seconds will suddenly cost 6400, on top of Magicka regen being disabled. That is a massive cost difference compared to those two other toggles. Not responding to it in an effective manner will cost the player dearly.
Also, panic-pressing Cloak is more punishing NOW than it will be if this goes live because panic-pressing it will cost you the 3200 magicka, turn it off, cost it 3200 magicka, etc. As opposed to now where panic pressing it will cost 4500 each time because one is overwriting the other. Implementing the scaling cost would punish panic-pressing even further.
And which playstyle is buffed? Please enlighten me. I have heard another poster in this thread say the same, but they couldn't back it up either.
If this is such a concern, then why not simply implement the scaling cost? It's obviously the preferred method and would literally address the issues people seem to complain about NB. Please explain to me why a scaling cost would be worse than a toggle. Please do so without pointing to other skills and resorting to "what-about-isms"4