Nightblade changes

DrSlaughtr

ioResult wrote: »

MincMincMinc wrote: »

Shadowasrial wrote: »

If this change goes live I will most certainly be quitting eso.

Rather dramatic. How about think out clearly what is your issue with the change and advocate for it in a concise manner so zos may actually read it.

1. Do you have any issues with toggle?
2. Is the cost too high?
3. Is the mag cut an issue?

It's not dramatic, it is a common sentiment of 90% of the Nightblade PvP mains. There are at least 3 Nightblade PvP guilds on PC/NA and the vast majority of the players polled in those guilds have said if this change goes through as is they will at best try it for a couple of weeks before doing one of two things:

1. Quit ESO completely
2. Turn off ESO Plus and not invest any more money on this game.

The toggle is stupid and will fail in PvP when ball groups lag out the server, something ZOS has steadfastly refused to do anything about over at least 8 years. But if they must make it a toggle, fine.

The cost is too high especially for Magblades who can't build into Mag regen and still have decent enough damage to actually kill sweaty try hards with 35K - 40K+ Health. Bring it down to the same cost/second as it is now. Ramp it over time if you want, but experienced Nightblades don't spam it, they know how to hit it once while they hit crouch in order to get away.

When you see a Nightblade spamming cloak rapidly and repeatedly you know they are an inexperienced PvP Nightblade.

Zero Magicka regen really makes the skill completely unusable. We see on these forums Sorc builds with 37K health and 37K Mag that can stun and streak and kill us. Same with Wardens and DKs. You can't make a Nightblade stealth build that has those stats. It's impossible. You can't kill anything with that type of Nightblade PvP build. You can make it really hard for people to kill you but with such a build all you can do as a Nightblade is surf the zerg or run in a ball group.

This change to giving zero Magicka regen during cloak makes Brawlers (who are not real Nightblades) the ONLY viable PvP build for the class if they want to survive. And I don't want to hear about using the other morph of Leeching and other nonsense. Some of us have been on PTS trying it all and IT DOESN'T WORK.

The lack of Magicka Regen completely KILLS the class in PVP for over 90% of the people running a Nightblade in Cyrodiil today.

I would be HAPPY to get into a Discord with a Dev on the Combat Team and share my screen and show them on Live how we manage resource pools using the skill and how we can't on PTS.

Zero Magicka Regen while in Cloak is what will make a lot of Nightblades quit the game.

I've stepped away from this discussion because quite frankly it's not worth the headache, but I wanted to follow up on a few things you pointed out.

1. The issue isn't the toggle. The issue is the high cost + no recovery. If you put no recovery on current cloak, it would be punishing but not outrageous. If you put higher cost or ramping cost on current cloak, it would be punishing but not outrageous. The issue, for me, is adding both of these on top of a toggle that will be unreliable.


2. You correctly pointed out that experienced nightblades do not spam cloak. Cloak either works or it doesn't. Mashing it only causes you to lose resources. The only time I cast cloak back to back is before attacking, because you have to make sure to land an attack in a certain window. If I cloak and move in, and the target repositions, I have to reposition, which might mean I have to reset cloak to get the necessary buffs on the attack.


3. Current cloak costs 4k fully leveled. That's up there with the highest cost skills in the game. I have to run smoked bear to keep up with using cloak, healing soul, and merc resolve. I find it to be a kick in the nuts that I can spend that much money on gold food and basically get no benefit of it unless I'm hiding in a corner. But I'll still have to run it so that when I'm taking a time out for resource recovery I'm not out of action for more than 15 seconds.


4. Anyone who thinks this will stop them from being ganked is off their rocker. This will not stop anyone from coming out of shadowy disguise and hitting you. What it will do is frustrate players trying to play a class with a skill that is part of its identity to the point where they decide to do something else. Which I guess is a victory for players who hate nightblades.


5. My biggest complaint with this is not about combat. It's about maneuvering throughout the environment. Current cloak costs me around 16k magicka to get from font door of a keep to a safe location without being detected by guards. 4 casts on average unless I can just turn right and go down the first hallway, which isn't always a given. And if there are enemy players, it becomes even more difficult. Having to use this toggle, with high cost and no recovery, will essentially sideline me for large portions of combat. So why should I keep participating?

blktauna

StaticWave wrote: »

If you're in this thread, just letting you know 7v1ing me doesn't make you a good NB lol

as stated in the other thread. You were not hunted, you were on a resource and killed by a 7 person pug, and by looking at the recap only 2 of which were NBs.

The fact it took 7 to do it says more about sorc than nb

NyassaV

So now that cloak is weird when are detect pots getting nerfed? Oh wait you shouldn't do that because how else are you supposed to deal with gankers who crouch

Numerically adjust cloak, no reason to redesign it entirely.

Jaimeh

NyassaV wrote: »

So now that cloak is weird when are detect pots getting nerfed? Oh wait you shouldn't do that because how else are you supposed to deal with gankers who crouch

Numerically adjust cloak, no reason to redesign it entirely.

Yes, I think the overwhelming sentiment of NB players is that they wouldn't mind a numeric adjustment, it's the toggle design that they most strongly object to @ZOS_BrianWheeler

Caecus0

I dislike several things about this cloak change, and I tend to end up in High MMR Battlegrounds.

I tend to use Cloak as a reposition tool and for mind-games. I don't play like a gankblade/bowblade, which this change ironically won't really effect THAT much.

The real trouble with this change is it ironically punishes NBs who use it to fight even if they aren't "spamming."

Currently, when NB uses Cloak, they get 3 seconds of invisibility, but they only have 2 seconds to do something due to the GCD. Experienced NBs know from practice how much this will cost them. Due to the change making it go from ~4500 for 3 seconds to ~3200 per 2 seconds, it means that the NB will only have 1 second of Invisibility to do something. If for some reason they need that 1 extra second to do something, it will end up costing them ~6400 Magicka, rather than the ~4500 it cost them before. This is ON TOP of the disabling of Magicka Regen. And because it is a toggle, simply letting the Cloak fall off isn't an option, lord-forbid if you weapon swap.

The argument that "this shouldn't affect experienced NBs who don't spam cloak" is just weird, because experienced NBs will look at it and go "Why does my Cloak suddenly cost so much more for how little it does?". Magicka is magicka, and it cuts into their ability to cast literally anything else. The reason they don't spam Cloak is because they know at higher level play there is a TON of counter play. Pots, Reveals, AoEs, and even some DoTs that just remove them for some reason, like Elemental Weakness that everyone and their uncle runs.

I'd personally be fine with implementing a ramping in-combat cost if they fixed a lot of the stuff that randomly removes NBs.

EDIT: It occurred to me as I posted it that it is indeed mostly the Toggle that I have an issue with for the reason I stated above.

EDIT 2: Grammar and spelling.

bladenick

Try range ganker, it the only pvp dps build can still manage this toggle cloak, other NB build is unplayable, especially mag one

Caecus0 wrote: »

I dislike several things about this cloak change, and I tend to end up in High MMR Battlegrounds.

I tend to use Cloak as a reposition tool and for mind-games. I don't play like a gankblade/bowblade, which this change ironically won't really effect THAT much.

The real trouble with this change is it ironically punishes NBs who use it to fight even if they aren't "spamming."

Currently, when NB uses Cloak, they get 3 seconds of invisibility, but they only have 2 seconds to do something due to the GCD. Experienced NBs know from practice how much this will cost them. Due to the change making it go from ~4500 for 3 seconds to ~3200 per 2 seconds, it means that the NB will only have 1 second of Invisibility to do something. If for some reason they need that 1 extra second to do something, it will end up costing them ~6400 Magicka, rather than the ~4500 it cost them before. This is ON TOP of the disabling of Magicka Regen. And because it is a toggle, simply letting the Cloak fall off isn't an option, lord-forbid if you weapon swap.

The argument that "this shouldn't affect experienced NBs who don't spam cloak" is just weird, because experienced NBs will look at it and go "Why does my Cloak suddenly cost so much more for how little it does?". Magicka is magicka, and it cuts into their ability to cast literally anything else. The reason they don't spam Cloak is because they know at higher level play there is a TON of counter play. Pots, Reveals, AoEs, and even some DoTs that just remove them for some reason like Elemental Weakness that everyone and their uncle runs.

I'd personally be fine with implementing a ramping in-combat cost if they fixed a lot of the stuff they randomly removes NBs.

EDIT: It occurred to me as I posted it that it is indeed mostly the Toggle that I have an issue with this for the reason I stated above.

sweatapodimas

I play nothing but nb and I do more damage with this patch from stealth (~15%).

Additionally, these changes to cloak actually make me deadlier, love it. And they backed off on the recovery nerf lol. Toggle is way better. Nothing else needs to be said

ZDunlain

sweatapodimas wrote: »

I play nothing but nb and I do more damage with this patch from stealth (~15%).

Additionally, these changes to cloak actually make me deadlier, love it. And they backed off on the recovery nerf lol. Toggle is way better. Nothing else needs to be said

The elder nightblade online!

Hope to see big templar and necro buffs like pre u35 before I leave this game, been playing since 2016 and this is exhausting, little changes everytime since 2 or 3 years ago and when they go for big changes they then get afraid to push it live. Anyways, I was an active ESO+ member and I now rarely subscribe.

They balance with some roleplay things in mind that I will never get it, too much fantasy on balancing instead of doing a good job imo.

Caecus0

sweatapodimas wrote: »

I play nothing but nb and I do more damage with this patch from stealth (~15%).

Additionally, these changes to cloak actually make me deadlier, love it. And they backed off on the recovery nerf lol. Toggle is way better. Nothing else needs to be said

How? This doesn't make sense. It's a 10% boost in PvE and it offers literally 0 benefit in PvP, which is what most of this discussion is centered around.

The 10% monster damage boost can be implemented without making this a toggle.

spaceghost8

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

spaceghost8

Or remove guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak and let them hit and hide as much as they want

sweatapodimas

Not from the 10% pve boost sheesh... its the timing on attacks from stealth with the toggle, can't give away all secrets buddy ol pal lol

I tested on friends as usual

For the most part ppl got their nb nerf. Good players find advantages with new mechanics, i.e. my playstyle has never devianted no matter the nerfs (deathstroke, RF proc timing, crit heals procing off shadowy etc...)

NBs stop crying and get to work

DrSlaughtr

spaceghost8 wrote: »

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

By your logic, if a majority of ESO players play nightblades, then you certainly wouldn't want to alienate them.

But that isn't true anyway. It's selective perception. You feel like everyone plays nightblades so it must be true, and this justifies your opinions on the matter.

No one, at least currently, can be permanently invisible. That would require you to hit Shadowy Disguise every three seconds for, well, however long you consider permanently.

On my stamina NB, it costs 4k.

I have 1500 mag recovery because I pay a buttload for perfect roe. It's my number one gold sink, and I do so to allow me to stay in battle. You'd rather me stay in battle because then you have a better chance to kill me. Take that away, and I'll just go range and pew-pew you from 40 meters out and you'll never have a chance to attack me.

On a stamina NB, I have 18k magicka on my back bar, and around 16k on my attack bar (do to various changes on skill passives).

Best case scenario, without recovery and on my back bar, I can hit the skill 4.5 times before running out of magicka.

But let's count recovery. So breaking down the math:

4,000 / 3 (seconds) = 1,333 per second.
1500 / 2 (seconds) = 750 per second.

So that gives a per-second cost of 583 per second.

After ten seconds, that is 5,830 magicka.
After twenty seconds, that is 11,660 magicka.

But that doesn't tell the whole story.

There are several situations where you (currently) HAVE to hit Shadowy Disguise before the 3 seconds are up. Here are a few.

Around guards: Guards have insane stealth detection. Waiting until the last second to reapply shadowy when moving anywhere around guards is a recipe to be pulled out and hit with numerous ranged attacks. This requires you to have to hit Shadowy in under 3 seconds. Much closer to 2. So the above math immediately skews.

Oh, did I mention ranged attacks? Due to positioning issues with the server, sometimes a ranged attack that should miss, because you went invisible, hits anyway. So that 4k you just spent on Shadowy Disguise was wasted and you have to hit it again. Sometimes you have to do it two or three times.

And on attack, you often have to reapply Disguise if the target moves suddenly. You have to land an attack within 3 seconds after going invisible with Shadowy Disguise. The skill lasts 3 seconds. A full charged dual wield heavy attack takes 1.55 seconds to land.

You approach target. Hit shadowy disguise and start to wind up or hit a skill of choice, but the target suddenly moves as the last moment, forcing you to reposition and reset Shadowy Disguise in order to benefit from the guaranteed critical strike. So now you used Shadowy not once, but twice (or maybe more if the action is crazy and they are fast).

Point being, the math doesn't tell the whole story.

But find, maybe you disregard all of that context. Fair enough.

But if I'm in combat, I am also using multiple other magicka skills, even on a nightblade.

Channeled Acceleration
Healing Soul
Merciless Resolve
Concealed Weapon

I have to do all that while managing buffs, having situational awareness, and keeping an eye on other targets in the area.

In conclusion, even with recovery, not only can I not be "permanently invisible", but I am also blasting magicka on other skills that I also have to keep up, even on a stamblade. When I play hybrid or magblade, it's actually a lot harder even though I have more magicka, because the demands on magicka grow significantly as all skills shift that way.

If you cannot find me with the basic tools to do so, or kill me when you do, then it's not because I used a cheat code. It's because I got the better of you. Maybe next time it will go the other way!

ZOS_Hadeostry

Greetings,

After removing some unnecessary back and forth from this thread, we would like everyone to keep posts on the subject at hand, civil, and constructive.

If there may be any questions in regards to the rules, please feel free to review them here

Caecus0

spaceghost8 wrote: »

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

I see people just threatening to leave, but with all due respect, I provided feedback. So have several others, specifically in regards to the toggle. The consensus seems to be: Nerf Cloak if you want, but the Toggle will be janky. Depending on your latency, it could just end up being intolerable and kill the class for those players.

I'd personally be fine with a scaling cost similar to dodges or Streak, but I would also like them to address the fact that some weird things remove Cloak that really shouldn't, including Weakness to Elements, Structured Entropy, Blight Seed stacks, and any DoT that procs a status effect. There are a few others that I can't think of right now.

You can complain about the players threatening to quit having no backbone, or even just learning around the toggle, but I could just as easily say the same about those complaining that Cloak is too strong and just tell them it's a L2P issue because they can deal with it in any of the ways I mentioned above. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly productive and falls on deaf ears.

ioResult

Caecus0 wrote: »

I see people just threatening to leave, but with all due respect, I provided feedback. So have several others, specifically in regards to the toggle. The consensus seems to be: Nerf Cloak if you want, but the Toggle will be janky. Depending on your latency, it could just end up being intolerable and kill the class for those players.

The toggle is terrible exactly because of what you mention below, but the complete lack of Magicka Regen just completely breaks the ability on PTS. This has been filed as bug reports on PTS by myself and I know a number of other Nightblades.

I'd personally be fine with a scaling cost similar to dodges or Streak, but I would also like them to address the fact that some weird things remove Cloak that really shouldn't, including Weakness to Elements, Structured Entropy, Blight Seed stacks, and any DoT that procs a status effect. There are a few others that I can't think of right now.

We have all recommended a scaling cost rather than this silliness of disabling Magicka regen while it's on and you're moving. And yes, might even be able to live with the reduced Magicka regen if - as you say - they address the fact that everything pulls players (not just Nightblades) out of stealth when they never told us why they chose to implement such in the first place. Well they just slipped those changes in without telling anyone.

You can complain about the players threatening to quit having no backbone, or even just learning around the toggle, but I could just as easily say the same about those complaining that Cloak is too strong and just tell them it's a L2P issue because they can deal with it in any of the ways I mentioned above. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly productive and falls on deaf ears.

All they do is complain about something that has so many counters in the game - that they refuse to use - while simultaneously using skills like Streak. It's so hypocritical.

spaceghost8

Caecus0 wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

I see people just threatening to leave, but with all due respect, I provided feedback. So have several others, specifically in regards to the toggle. The consensus seems to be: Nerf Cloak if you want, but the Toggle will be janky. Depending on your latency, it could just end up being intolerable and kill the class for those players.

I'd personally be fine with a scaling cost similar to dodges or Streak, but I would also like them to address the fact that some weird things remove Cloak that really shouldn't, including Weakness to Elements, Structured Entropy, Blight Seed stacks, and any DoT that procs a status effect. There are a few others that I can't think of right now.

You can complain about the players threatening to quit having no backbone, or even just learning around the toggle, but I could just as easily say the same about those complaining that Cloak is too strong and just tell them it's a L2P issue because they can deal with it in any of the ways I mentioned above. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly productive and falls on deaf ears.

To be honest I dont think it makes a difference if it’s a toggle or a ramping up cost either way they should remove mag recovery totally whilst in cloak and remove guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak, they shouldn’t incentiveze that play style by giving you double the damage from cloak

I talk bad about cloak but when I play NB I spam it as well, it’s an unfair advantage and you’d be silly not to use it

When they do this they should also increase the shadowy barrier to like 30 seconds and remove the heavy armour requirement to increase timer

I’ve been playing for 2 years this December, I didn’t know those skills pull NBs out of stealth, I will try them

It’s not a L2P, if something is broken it’s broken… Corrosive and rending is waay easier to play against than cloak, u see green smoke, getaway… rending minor mangle masters, cleans or constantly proc vigour… those got nerfed because NB players complained about them… everything that affects NB in a negative way gets nerfed

Rending and masters were the best anti nightblade repellent… most thing u used to see then was ranged blades, they r annoying as well yes, but just like mag sorcs just block and take cover, they will go pick on someone else

DrSlaughtr

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

I see people just threatening to leave, but with all due respect, I provided feedback. So have several others, specifically in regards to the toggle. The consensus seems to be: Nerf Cloak if you want, but the Toggle will be janky. Depending on your latency, it could just end up being intolerable and kill the class for those players.

I'd personally be fine with a scaling cost similar to dodges or Streak, but I would also like them to address the fact that some weird things remove Cloak that really shouldn't, including Weakness to Elements, Structured Entropy, Blight Seed stacks, and any DoT that procs a status effect. There are a few others that I can't think of right now.

You can complain about the players threatening to quit having no backbone, or even just learning around the toggle, but I could just as easily say the same about those complaining that Cloak is too strong and just tell them it's a L2P issue because they can deal with it in any of the ways I mentioned above. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly productive and falls on deaf ears.

To be honest I dont think it makes a difference if it’s a toggle or a ramping up cost either way they should remove mag recovery totally whilst in cloak and remove guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak, they shouldn’t incentiveze that play style by giving you double the damage from cloak

I talk bad about cloak but when I play NB I spam it as well, it’s an unfair advantage and you’d be silly not to use it

When they do this they should also increase the shadowy barrier to like 30 seconds and remove the heavy armour requirement to increase timer

I’ve been playing for 2 years this December, I didn’t know those skills pull NBs out of stealth, I will try them

It’s not a L2P, if something is broken it’s broken… Corrosive and rending is waay easier to play against than cloak, u see green smoke, getaway… rending minor mangle masters, cleans or constantly proc vigour… those got nerfed because NB players complained about them… everything that affects NB in a negative way gets nerfed

Rending and masters were the best anti nightblade repellent… most thing u used to see then was ranged blades, they r annoying as well yes, but just like mag sorcs just block and take cover, they will go pick on someone else

Okay so this is simply a matter of your perception being skewed to fit your predetermined opinion.

Those things were not nerfed because NBs wanted it. Corrosive in particular was severely over buffed back with Waking Flame (or the update after). It was too strong for the better part of a year IIRC. There was a lot of complaining from various class players. I think it was pulled back a little too much but it's still stronger than it was pre buff imo.

And I'm sorry, but your statement that things that counter nightblades gets nerfed doesn't gel with reality.

All detect skills buffed.

Detect pots buffed.

Sets added with specific language to block cloak usage.

Old sets changed to block being used from cloak.

Sets added specifically to help negate damage from stealth by being triggered by NB cloak CC.

Are you suggesting that every nerf to other classes was solely at the behest and to benefit nightblades? That's a very myopic view. But if that's your opinion then you're entitled to it.

Also when people throw around terms like perma cloak or spamming the skill they should explain that they think that is. My guess is more often than not their definition is wrong or, in case the latter, an unnecessary use of the skill because other than your attack run or dealing with guards there is no reason to HAVE to use the skill over and over.

A number of players seem to think that if you can't see a NB then they must be undetectable.

I think if this current pts version was the one initially tested, less players would be mad on either side. They essentially have a segment of the player base hope that NBs would cease to exist on the next update. Now that the conditions are more reasonable, they feel like the rug was pulled out from under them.

That's understandable. But this is why players shouldn't actively campaign to destroy another class. Especially when I'd bet the farm that most of them are minmaxing their builds on other classes in ways that some would consider cheesy as well.

spaceghost8

DrSlaughtr wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Caecus0 wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

😂 ZOS has no backbone when it comes to NB, a large portion of eso pvp players play only nightblades nothing else

They didn’t get feedback just threats that people will leave… Maybe that’s what everyone has to start doing…

If they don’t think cloak with recovery is broken as you can still stay permanently invisible, they should let you get ultimate regeneration whilst on corrosive/goliath

At this point I just need to finish ESO zones and see where I stand with this game, cause doing the same thing almost everyday is getting kind of boring… I don’t know how people play this game for 5+ years

I see people just threatening to leave, but with all due respect, I provided feedback. So have several others, specifically in regards to the toggle. The consensus seems to be: Nerf Cloak if you want, but the Toggle will be janky. Depending on your latency, it could just end up being intolerable and kill the class for those players.

I'd personally be fine with a scaling cost similar to dodges or Streak, but I would also like them to address the fact that some weird things remove Cloak that really shouldn't, including Weakness to Elements, Structured Entropy, Blight Seed stacks, and any DoT that procs a status effect. There are a few others that I can't think of right now.

You can complain about the players threatening to quit having no backbone, or even just learning around the toggle, but I could just as easily say the same about those complaining that Cloak is too strong and just tell them it's a L2P issue because they can deal with it in any of the ways I mentioned above. Unfortunately, it isn't particularly productive and falls on deaf ears.

To be honest I dont think it makes a difference if it’s a toggle or a ramping up cost either way they should remove mag recovery totally whilst in cloak and remove guaranteed critical hit chance from cloak, they shouldn’t incentiveze that play style by giving you double the damage from cloak

I talk bad about cloak but when I play NB I spam it as well, it’s an unfair advantage and you’d be silly not to use it

When they do this they should also increase the shadowy barrier to like 30 seconds and remove the heavy armour requirement to increase timer

I’ve been playing for 2 years this December, I didn’t know those skills pull NBs out of stealth, I will try them

It’s not a L2P, if something is broken it’s broken… Corrosive and rending is waay easier to play against than cloak, u see green smoke, getaway… rending minor mangle masters, cleans or constantly proc vigour… those got nerfed because NB players complained about them… everything that affects NB in a negative way gets nerfed

Rending and masters were the best anti nightblade repellent… most thing u used to see then was ranged blades, they r annoying as well yes, but just like mag sorcs just block and take cover, they will go pick on someone else

Okay so this is simply a matter of your perception being skewed to fit your predetermined opinion.

Those things were not nerfed because NBs wanted it. Corrosive in particular was severely over buffed back with Waking Flame (or the update after). It was too strong for the better part of a year IIRC. There was a lot of complaining from various class players. I think it was pulled back a little too much but it's still stronger than it was pre buff imo.

And I'm sorry, but your statement that things that counter nightblades gets nerfed doesn't gel with reality.

All detect skills buffed.

Detect pots buffed.

Sets added with specific language to block cloak usage.

Old sets changed to block being used from cloak.

Sets added specifically to help negate damage from stealth by being triggered by NB cloak CC.

Are you suggesting that every nerf to other classes was solely at the behest and to benefit nightblades? That's a very myopic view. But if that's your opinion then you're entitled to it.

Also when people throw around terms like perma cloak or spamming the skill they should explain that they think that is. My guess is more often than not their definition is wrong or, in case the latter, an unnecessary use of the skill because other than your attack run or dealing with guards there is no reason to HAVE to use the skill over and over.

A number of players seem to think that if you can't see a NB then they must be undetectable.

I think if this current pts version was the one initially tested, less players would be mad on either side. They essentially have a segment of the player base hope that NBs would cease to exist on the next update. Now that the conditions are more reasonable, they feel like the rug was pulled out from under them.

That's understandable. But this is why players shouldn't actively campaign to destroy another class. Especially when I'd bet the farm that most of them are minmaxing their builds on other classes in ways that some would consider cheesy as well.

I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?

Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t

Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Turtle_Bot

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

spaceghost8

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That’s too bad 😂

spaceghost8

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed

Tommy_The_Gun

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.

spaceghost8

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.

Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half

Tommy_The_Gun

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.

Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half

It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.

The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).

Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.

Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.

Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.

The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.

I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.

I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....

Caecus0

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That's interesting. I didn't see that. Thanks.

Did they also fix Blight Seed?

Caecus0

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed

Bug Fixes aren't nerfs. They were never supposed to do that to begin with.

Crying out for bug fixes is not the same as crying out for nerfs.

spaceghost8

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

That is probably because ZOS established that when it comes to "non-detection" skills or potions, only Direct Damage can interrupt invisibility and those skills were DOT or Status effect. So in this case it was actually a bug fix.

Even if that was true, the fact that they wasted resources to fix a “bug” that has been in the game for probably 10 years, that was used to counter just to appease nightblade players further proves my point still… people think ZOS likes NBs but I don’t think that’s true, I think they r the loudest in the forums… One other thing that would be helpful is increasing the range of the detection skills from mages/fighters guild and cut the cost by half

It wasn't in a game for 10 years, but rather 1 or 2 maybe.

The thing about Cloak (and I assume it is worth mentioning) is that initially, when this game launched it worked in a different way & was way stronger, on a totally different level (believe it or not).

Cloak had negative effect removal - just like purge has. And it was not like 1 or 2, no, no, no... it was like 5 or 7 negative effects being removed. And the reason I am bringing it up is that ZOS from the start did not wanted single target dots to break cloak. But, they prolly could not code it properly, so they added negative effect removal, so that every dot was gone. This over time created an issue that players were using cloak in an unintended way - as cheap purge rather than a skill that lets you sneak past enemies.

Later on, negative effect removal was changed to DOT suppression. Yes. Suppression. So if you had like 10 DOTs on you, you could cloak and those DOT were all ticking, but were not dealing dmg to you. Crazy from todays perspective, right ? Later on they changed it again so it was "pausing" DOT timer.

Finally, when they most likely figured the way to code it right, The made DOT to deal dmg to a invisible player, but it was not interrupting cloak. It is more or less how it is right now. Those two skills that were fixed, were (I think) the last ones that did that. Previously, you also had some sets that maybe were not coded right, as they were DOTs, but those were also interrupting invisibility.

The thing is, that ZOS seems to change invisibility mechanics every 2 or 3 years. So, the game went to have a skill that removes negative effects & dots, to dot suppression to dot dealing damage to you.

I say, give it 2 or 3 years and Dots will be breaking cloak (making it kinda useless). Give it another 2 or 3 years and all cloak will do is it will make players half-tranparent lol.

I mean, non-NB players see NB as the most vocal, but it works both ways & NB players see people who do complain about NB too & lets just say that being "witch hunted" is not nice... I mean I also played WW in ESO and stuff WW players went through was hell as 2 times in game's history they were competitive in PvE & PvP. Well, they are not competitive any more cuz other players did not liked them & complained on forums....

What I am getting from all this is the fact that nightblade has been broken since launch 😂

spaceghost8

Caecus0 wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Turtle_Bot wrote: »

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Now if weakness to elements and structured entropy counter cloak spammers as mentioned above maybe I overreacted, I will give it a try when I get home tonight

Weakness to elements and entropy got "fixed" last patch (U43) so that those abilities no longer break stealth or invisibility.





Here is the link to the PTS patch notes the screenshots were taken from
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/664131/pc-mac-patch-notes-v10-1-5-update-43#latest

This further proves my point when I said everything that affects nightblades negatively gets nerfed… they band together here on the forums and get it nerfed

Bug Fixes aren't nerfs. They were never supposed to do that to begin with.

Crying out for bug fixes is not the same as crying out for nerfs.

The definition of nerf is to take an ability or set that was good at something and weaken it… these fits the description, it was good at taking NBs out of stealth now not anymore… funny how out of all the points I made this is your talking points… I take it u agree with everything else?

DrSlaughtr

spaceghost8 wrote: »

I don’t even know what is your point, are you saying cloak isn’t broken?

Not in the way you think. It bugs out often. Especially with guards shooting at you from a mile away and having infinite stealth detection.

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Are u refuting corrosive and rending/masters dual wield was the best thing against gankers? Are u refuting that these were way easier to counter than ganking? But they got nerfed and cloak hasn’t

It was best against everyone. That is why it was dialed back. It's still better than it was prebuff. People seem to forget how bad DK was at PVP dps was pre 2021.

spaceghost8 wrote: »

Are you refuting that in order to counter the nightblade’s cloak hit, cloak hit critical strikes you need to be a specialist? for example sacrificing sustain or major brutality/sorcery buffs? For detect potions… Need to use rallying cry?… have high health and high resistances… or use the ridiculously expensive skills from mages/fighters guild that cost 5000 mag/stam to cast… short range.. for a measly 5 seconds duration, do you call that buffed?

Everything you listed i have to do to fight nightblades, so no I don't feel bad for you. I have to run a source of brutality so I can have detect pots. I have to slot a detect skill even though I don't need the savagery buff anymore. I also have to change my sets if I get on and it's tank getting everywhere and I need to alter my damage output. That's part of the game. Adaption. You adapt or your character dies.

You could make friends with some nightblades and let them protect your back if you don't want to defend yourself from them.