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Nightblade changes
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You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.
The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.
Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.
STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?
Want a real challange? Play a necro in pvp. Any build.
Edited by necro_the_crafter on October 12, 2024 9:51PM4 -
ioResult✭✭✭
Have fun playing until the next change happens. That's your choice. Others can also choose to stop paying ZOS until it does change again or just leave the game completely because ZOS have made their class and play style unworkable for no good reason and just say that maybe they'll see you all in AoC someday soon because that's where their money will be going instead.Bushido2513 wrote: »At this point in the game to say build around something is credible for sure because as we all know ZOS has shown that the will either immediately back off of a change or stick with it for one or more patch cycles. This change is happening and like all the rest I've gone through in this game that have been forced upon me no matter how I feel, I'm just going to play it till the next change happens.
But yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
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sudo rm -rf /
don't try this at ~1 -
Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭
Have fun playing until the next change happens. That's your choice. Others can also choose to stop paying ZOS until it does change again or just leave the game completely because ZOS have made their class and play style unworkable for no good reason and just say that maybe they'll see you all in AoC someday soon because that's where their money will be going instead.Bushido2513 wrote: »At this point in the game to say build around something is credible for sure because as we all know ZOS has shown that the will either immediately back off of a change or stick with it for one or more patch cycles. This change is happening and like all the rest I've gone through in this game that have been forced upon me no matter how I feel, I'm just going to play it till the next change happens.
Yeah people say that and I'm sure some do but the servers continue to stay on, subs continue to bill and I still see players every day wanting to buy crowns which some I'm sure buy when they can't trade for gold.
I'll give them this ZOS knows how to get you in and keep you hooked. Not only do you have to move games but you have to either get to know all new players or get your friends or online buddies to move as well. It's not impossible but at the end of the day I can see why a lot of choose to go with what they know and have played for so long. Personally I just take breaks and come back when I feel like it.1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
The thing is Cloak DESERVED a nerf. There is no question or argument to support Cloak in its current state on the live server. Now you could make an argument that Cloak could have been nerfed differently and that I agree with, but Cloak as a whole needs to be nerfed some way or another.
A typical build doesn't crutch on 1 specific skill. You have to account for many variables like # of enemies, what kind of debuffs you will take, how many snares will be applied, etc. If your entire build falls apart because of 1 change, then that build is not a good build.
So to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me on a brawler NB without Cloak:
https://youtu.be/8jLkBfvnAW8
I have no problem tanking and kiting 4-5 people on my own without needing Cloak. I built this spec just like how I build every other spec by addressing the necessary variables. In other words, I adjusted and built around a nerf.And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
Cloak in its current state on the live server is why it deserves to be nerfed. I'm sorry but that is the truth. You have the advantage of stealth already, and if you fail to kill me with the first combo, there is no reason for you to disappear again with Cloak without any drawbacks. My only counter for that is a 15s detect pot which you can counter by stacking high movement speed and spamming dodge rolls. The moment my pot expires I basically have zero reliable counter. Not to mention how much sustain I'm giving up when using a detect pot.
How is that not broken?I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
Yes, playing as a ganker is easier because you can pick your fights and reset the fight at will. As a brawlerblade, you will have to deal with multiple enemies at a time and that tends to make inexperienced players die really quickly. Just take a look at Cyrodiil. How many NB 1vXers do you see versus NB gankers? There aren't many because to survive vs 4-5 people and still do good damage is much harder.I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
Yes, I agree that it depends on the player, but it's generally easier and more forgiving to sit in stealth and take on 1 player from stealth than to be completely out there and taking on 4-5 players without Cloak.
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc5 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭The funny thing is the build I used in that NB clip was brought directly from my stamsorc. Stamsorc is supposed to be the most mobile class yet my NB felt much faster. Maybe it's because of:
- Minor Expedition on a class spammable
- Major Expedition on an AoE heal
- 4s of snare/root immunity on a skill that also gives Major Evasion
All of these take up 3 slots on my NB. To meet these criteria on stamsorc, I will need 4 slots because:
- Quick Cloak gives Major Expedition and Major Evasion but doesn't give snare/root immunity
- Hurricane gives Minor Expedition but doesn't heal
Just from this difference alone, NB is already more efficient due to their bar space. Let's not also mention that Siphoning Attacks is instant cast and restores both stam and mag. My Dark Deal takes 1s to channel and can be interrupted, and only restores either stam or mag lol. My NB runs with sub 1.2k recovery fully buffed and it feels better than my stamsorc which has over 1.6k regen of each
Edited by StaticWave on October 13, 2024 12:08PMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc4 -
Caecus0✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
You definitely can't do this in Cyrodiil when an army of tank meta zerglings is chasing you. It doesn't even work when a leaping DK is chasing you. You run out of Magicka because Mag regen is stopped the whole time you're moving. It makes melee Magblade impossible. You are forced to brawl. If I want to brawl I'll run a Warden any day over a Nightblade.Galeriano2 wrote: »On PTS cast cloak than stay in cloak forever by using rally+siphoning attacks. And when You're in safe spot just stop there and stay in cloak while it gets 50% cost reduction and magicka regen is no longer halted.
On Live I can cast Shadowy Disguise, and for 3 seconds I can try to escape while my Magicka regens. At the end of this I'm down ~800 Magicka because of regen. If they have a detect pot on me, I can try to LOS until the pot wears off and use Magicka to heal myself. Then repeat this again & again to try to get away or regen enough to re-engage in the fight.
On PTS? I toggle Shadowy Disguise and run. After 4 seconds over 8000 Magicka is GONE.
So I get one more second of invisibility on PTS than Live, but it literally costs TEN TIMES as much Magicka because regen is STOPPED the whole time?
That is a ridiculously huge nerf. Why wouldn't any Nightblade just run Stage 4 Vamp sprint instead next patch?
All this change to Shadowy Disguise does - as coded now - is force PVP Nightblades to use Stage 4 Vamp sprint like everyone else in Cyrodiil.
I have a change to propose instead:
1) Take Stage 4 Vamp sprint OUT of the Vampire skill line. Get rid of it. Invis pots are the only option for all classes but Nightblade.
2) Add the formerly Stage 4 Vamp sprint to stealth ability to the Nightblade class as a NIGHTBLADE PASSIVE now instead. Now ONLY Nightblades can use it and it takes only 2 seconds of sprinting for a Nightblade to become invisible instead of 4.
3) Remove Dark Cloak & Shadowy Disguise from the Nightblade class abilities completely. Replace them with something else.
Now no more clunky toggle and no stupid No Mag Regen. Nightblades can simply sprint to try to get away, just like any current Stage 4 Vamp can, but every other class loses this ability. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
"Rebuild your class around the nerf" is a weak point. Everyone does this anyway no matter the class. The reason this doesn't affect brawlerblade that much is because they could literally drop the skill from their bar and it would barely dent them because playing tanky DPS is ludicrously efficient and kinda braindead.
The question is if a nerf justified or if a change makes sense. Toggles are janky and unintuitive, at least with costs that high. A scaling cost would achieve the same end the devs are aiming for without the needless jank.
Rebuilding around a nerf isn’t a weak point. Non Cloak classes can still be a stage 4 vamp for invisibility. It does not affect performance in any way.
Also, why do NB gankers have this warped mindset that their playstyle is somehow more challenging than the typical brawler playstyle lol? I bet most of the NB gankers on this thread can’t survive more than 3 players in a normal build. I’ve seen it too many times. There is a reason why there are more gankers and less 1vXers, not the other way around. It’s infinitely easier to play as a ganker than to play as a 1vXer.
Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
EDIT: Grammar
Nerf is absolutely needed, the implementation is questionable for sure especially when you factor in lag.
At this point in the game to say build around something is credible for sure because as we all know ZOS has shown that the will either immediately back off of a change or stick with it for one or more patch cycles. This change is happening and like all the rest I've gone through in this game that have been forced upon me no matter how I feel, I'm just going to play it till the next change happens.
I main sorc and played mag sorc well before the ward buff and will play it well after the nerf if multiple times. That's just how ESO for better or worse but truth is at least every class gets to eventually be on top for a bit. It's not great balance but it's something and for now all we're going to get.
Basically this, which is why I Would be okay with the scaling cost and just going from there and seeing how it plays out.1 -
Caecus0✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
The thing is Cloak DESERVED a nerf. There is no question or argument to support Cloak in its current state on the live server. Now you could make an argument that Cloak could have been nerfed differently and that I agree with, but Cloak as a whole needs to be nerfed some way or another.
A typical build doesn't crutch on 1 specific skill. You have to account for many variables like # of enemies, what kind of debuffs you will take, how many snares will be applied, etc. If your entire build falls apart because of 1 change, then that build is not a good build.
So to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me on a brawler NB without Cloak:https://youtu.be/8jLkBfvnAW8
I have no problem tanking and kiting 4-5 people on my own without needing Cloak. I built this spec just like how I build every other spec by addressing the necessary variables. In other words, I adjusted and built around a nerf.And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
Cloak in its current state on the live server is why it deserves to be nerfed. I'm sorry but that is the truth. You have the advantage of stealth already, and if you fail to kill me with the first combo, there is no reason for you to disappear again with Cloak without any drawbacks. My only counter for that is a 15s detect pot which you can counter by stacking high movement speed and spamming dodge rolls. The moment my pot expires I basically have zero reliable counter. Not to mention how much sustain I'm giving up when using a detect pot.
How is that not broken?I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
Yes, playing as a ganker is easier because you can pick your fights and reset the fight at will. As a brawlerblade, you will have to deal with multiple enemies at a time and that tends to make inexperienced players die really quickly. Just take a look at Cyrodiil. How many NB 1vXers do you see versus NB gankers? There aren't many because to survive vs 4-5 people and still do good damage is much harder.I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
Yes, I agree that it depends on the player, but it's generally easier and more forgiving to sit in stealth and take on 1 player from stealth than to be completely out there and taking on 4-5 players without Cloak.
Yes, Cloak is so powerful and ganking is so easy that you can play as a Brawlerblade that you "haven't played since 2022", without Cloak, with a copy/pasted brawler build from your Sorc, and have no problems 1vXing.
What?
How does this showcase that Cloak needs a nerf? How does this not showcase that Brawling is actually easy?
I'm fine with a Cloak nerf. I just don't want a janky as heck toggle. The changes ZoS is implementing to Cloak doesn't even address your concerns regarding ganking. Why not just implement a scaling cost or other similar sensible change?
EDIT: I added that last sentence to clarify I'm okay with a Cloak nerf as long as it makes sense.Edited by Caecus0 on October 13, 2024 10:46PM1 -
LittlePinkDot✭✭✭✭✭Make cloak cost stamina instead of a Magicka toggle. Then people need to choose between break free, block, roll dodge or cloak.0
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Bushido2513✭✭✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
You definitely can't do this in Cyrodiil when an army of tank meta zerglings is chasing you. It doesn't even work when a leaping DK is chasing you. You run out of Magicka because Mag regen is stopped the whole time you're moving. It makes melee Magblade impossible. You are forced to brawl. If I want to brawl I'll run a Warden any day over a Nightblade.Galeriano2 wrote: »On PTS cast cloak than stay in cloak forever by using rally+siphoning attacks. And when You're in safe spot just stop there and stay in cloak while it gets 50% cost reduction and magicka regen is no longer halted.
On Live I can cast Shadowy Disguise, and for 3 seconds I can try to escape while my Magicka regens. At the end of this I'm down ~800 Magicka because of regen. If they have a detect pot on me, I can try to LOS until the pot wears off and use Magicka to heal myself. Then repeat this again & again to try to get away or regen enough to re-engage in the fight.
On PTS? I toggle Shadowy Disguise and run. After 4 seconds over 8000 Magicka is GONE.
So I get one more second of invisibility on PTS than Live, but it literally costs TEN TIMES as much Magicka because regen is STOPPED the whole time?
That is a ridiculously huge nerf. Why wouldn't any Nightblade just run Stage 4 Vamp sprint instead next patch?
All this change to Shadowy Disguise does - as coded now - is force PVP Nightblades to use Stage 4 Vamp sprint like everyone else in Cyrodiil.
I have a change to propose instead:
1) Take Stage 4 Vamp sprint OUT of the Vampire skill line. Get rid of it. Invis pots are the only option for all classes but Nightblade.
2) Add the formerly Stage 4 Vamp sprint to stealth ability to the Nightblade class as a NIGHTBLADE PASSIVE now instead. Now ONLY Nightblades can use it and it takes only 2 seconds of sprinting for a Nightblade to become invisible instead of 4.
3) Remove Dark Cloak & Shadowy Disguise from the Nightblade class abilities completely. Replace them with something else.
Now no more clunky toggle and no stupid No Mag Regen. Nightblades can simply sprint to try to get away, just like any current Stage 4 Vamp can, but every other class loses this ability. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
"Rebuild your class around the nerf" is a weak point. Everyone does this anyway no matter the class. The reason this doesn't affect brawlerblade that much is because they could literally drop the skill from their bar and it would barely dent them because playing tanky DPS is ludicrously efficient and kinda braindead.
The question is if a nerf justified or if a change makes sense. Toggles are janky and unintuitive, at least with costs that high. A scaling cost would achieve the same end the devs are aiming for without the needless jank.
Rebuilding around a nerf isn’t a weak point. Non Cloak classes can still be a stage 4 vamp for invisibility. It does not affect performance in any way.
Also, why do NB gankers have this warped mindset that their playstyle is somehow more challenging than the typical brawler playstyle lol? I bet most of the NB gankers on this thread can’t survive more than 3 players in a normal build. I’ve seen it too many times. There is a reason why there are more gankers and less 1vXers, not the other way around. It’s infinitely easier to play as a ganker than to play as a 1vXer.
Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
EDIT: Grammar
Nerf is absolutely needed, the implementation is questionable for sure especially when you factor in lag.
At this point in the game to say build around something is credible for sure because as we all know ZOS has shown that the will either immediately back off of a change or stick with it for one or more patch cycles. This change is happening and like all the rest I've gone through in this game that have been forced upon me no matter how I feel, I'm just going to play it till the next change happens.
I main sorc and played mag sorc well before the ward buff and will play it well after the nerf if multiple times. That's just how ESO for better or worse but truth is at least every class gets to eventually be on top for a bit. It's not great balance but it's something and for now all we're going to get.
Basically this, which is why I Would be okay with the scaling cost and just going from there and seeing how it plays out.
At this point I feel like everyone is saying the same thing. A nerf is warranted and ok but this toggle is what has people pushing back and I agree.
Does the toggle come with new servers? Because this toggle should come with new servers lol.
In pvp these days I see NB usually use cloak 1 to 5 times per engagement with me. It's either short because I kill them or they kill me or somewhere in-between because I survive the initial burst and they get me later or peel out.
Trying to do this with a toggle in lag with possible reveals in play sounds like a recipe for issues. Maybe ZOS has tested it and it works but I hope they used a lag simulator lol5 -
Caecus0✭✭✭Bushido2513 wrote: »Bushido2513 wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »
You definitely can't do this in Cyrodiil when an army of tank meta zerglings is chasing you. It doesn't even work when a leaping DK is chasing you. You run out of Magicka because Mag regen is stopped the whole time you're moving. It makes melee Magblade impossible. You are forced to brawl. If I want to brawl I'll run a Warden any day over a Nightblade.Galeriano2 wrote: »On PTS cast cloak than stay in cloak forever by using rally+siphoning attacks. And when You're in safe spot just stop there and stay in cloak while it gets 50% cost reduction and magicka regen is no longer halted.
On Live I can cast Shadowy Disguise, and for 3 seconds I can try to escape while my Magicka regens. At the end of this I'm down ~800 Magicka because of regen. If they have a detect pot on me, I can try to LOS until the pot wears off and use Magicka to heal myself. Then repeat this again & again to try to get away or regen enough to re-engage in the fight.
On PTS? I toggle Shadowy Disguise and run. After 4 seconds over 8000 Magicka is GONE.
So I get one more second of invisibility on PTS than Live, but it literally costs TEN TIMES as much Magicka because regen is STOPPED the whole time?
That is a ridiculously huge nerf. Why wouldn't any Nightblade just run Stage 4 Vamp sprint instead next patch?
All this change to Shadowy Disguise does - as coded now - is force PVP Nightblades to use Stage 4 Vamp sprint like everyone else in Cyrodiil.
I have a change to propose instead:
1) Take Stage 4 Vamp sprint OUT of the Vampire skill line. Get rid of it. Invis pots are the only option for all classes but Nightblade.
2) Add the formerly Stage 4 Vamp sprint to stealth ability to the Nightblade class as a NIGHTBLADE PASSIVE now instead. Now ONLY Nightblades can use it and it takes only 2 seconds of sprinting for a Nightblade to become invisible instead of 4.
3) Remove Dark Cloak & Shadowy Disguise from the Nightblade class abilities completely. Replace them with something else.
Now no more clunky toggle and no stupid No Mag Regen. Nightblades can simply sprint to try to get away, just like any current Stage 4 Vamp can, but every other class loses this ability. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
"Rebuild your class around the nerf" is a weak point. Everyone does this anyway no matter the class. The reason this doesn't affect brawlerblade that much is because they could literally drop the skill from their bar and it would barely dent them because playing tanky DPS is ludicrously efficient and kinda braindead.
The question is if a nerf justified or if a change makes sense. Toggles are janky and unintuitive, at least with costs that high. A scaling cost would achieve the same end the devs are aiming for without the needless jank.
Rebuilding around a nerf isn’t a weak point. Non Cloak classes can still be a stage 4 vamp for invisibility. It does not affect performance in any way.
Also, why do NB gankers have this warped mindset that their playstyle is somehow more challenging than the typical brawler playstyle lol? I bet most of the NB gankers on this thread can’t survive more than 3 players in a normal build. I’ve seen it too many times. There is a reason why there are more gankers and less 1vXers, not the other way around. It’s infinitely easier to play as a ganker than to play as a 1vXer.
Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
EDIT: Grammar
Nerf is absolutely needed, the implementation is questionable for sure especially when you factor in lag.
At this point in the game to say build around something is credible for sure because as we all know ZOS has shown that the will either immediately back off of a change or stick with it for one or more patch cycles. This change is happening and like all the rest I've gone through in this game that have been forced upon me no matter how I feel, I'm just going to play it till the next change happens.
I main sorc and played mag sorc well before the ward buff and will play it well after the nerf if multiple times. That's just how ESO for better or worse but truth is at least every class gets to eventually be on top for a bit. It's not great balance but it's something and for now all we're going to get.
Basically this, which is why I Would be okay with the scaling cost and just going from there and seeing how it plays out.
At this point I feel like everyone is saying the same thing. A nerf is warranted and ok but this toggle is what has people pushing back and I agree.
Does the toggle come with new servers? Because this toggle should come with new servers lol.
In pvp these days I see NB usually use cloak 1 to 5 times per engagement with me. It's either short because I kill them or they kill me or somewhere in-between because I survive the initial burst and they get me later or peel out.
Trying to do this with a toggle in lag with possible reveals in play sounds like a recipe for issues. Maybe ZOS has tested it and it works but I hope they used a lag simulator lol
The funny part is that the servers ARE new. They did a server replacement a year or so back. For a week or so, ESO (including Cyro) ran smooth as butter, with big name players returning and being happy as can be (Deltia being one in particular that comes to mind).
Then the weekly maintenance happened and, for some reason, the servers got worse. Not as bad as before the replacement, but certainly worse than they were right after the replacement.1 -
MidniteOwl1913✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
You definitely can't do this in Cyrodiil when an army of tank meta zerglings is chasing you. It doesn't even work when a leaping DK is chasing you. You run out of Magicka because Mag regen is stopped the whole time you're moving. It makes melee Magblade impossible. You are forced to brawl. If I want to brawl I'll run a Warden any day over a Nightblade.Galeriano2 wrote: »On PTS cast cloak than stay in cloak forever by using rally+siphoning attacks. And when You're in safe spot just stop there and stay in cloak while it gets 50% cost reduction and magicka regen is no longer halted.
On Live I can cast Shadowy Disguise, and for 3 seconds I can try to escape while my Magicka regens. At the end of this I'm down ~800 Magicka because of regen. If they have a detect pot on me, I can try to LOS until the pot wears off and use Magicka to heal myself. Then repeat this again & again to try to get away or regen enough to re-engage in the fight.
On PTS? I toggle Shadowy Disguise and run. After 4 seconds over 8000 Magicka is GONE.
So I get one more second of invisibility on PTS than Live, but it literally costs TEN TIMES as much Magicka because regen is STOPPED the whole time?
That is a ridiculously huge nerf. Why wouldn't any Nightblade just run Stage 4 Vamp sprint instead next patch?
All this change to Shadowy Disguise does - as coded now - is force PVP Nightblades to use Stage 4 Vamp sprint like everyone else in Cyrodiil.
I have a change to propose instead:
1) Take Stage 4 Vamp sprint OUT of the Vampire skill line. Get rid of it. Invis pots are the only option for all classes but Nightblade.
2) Add the formerly Stage 4 Vamp sprint to stealth ability to the Nightblade class as a NIGHTBLADE PASSIVE now instead. Now ONLY Nightblades can use it and it takes only 2 seconds of sprinting for a Nightblade to become invisible instead of 4.
3) Remove Dark Cloak & Shadowy Disguise from the Nightblade class abilities completely. Replace them with something else.
Now no more clunky toggle and no stupid No Mag Regen. Nightblades can simply sprint to try to get away, just like any current Stage 4 Vamp can, but every other class loses this ability. Sounds like a fair trade to me.
OR we can all stop nerfing things because of pvp, and drop the whole “everyone needs to change” because some niche pvpers are upset.
This game needs to stop acting like pvp is the pivot that the entire game has to rotate on. This philosophy has ruined racials, it’s ruined classes, it’s ruined armor and weapons, and it’s wrecking pve builds.
It’s like no one is allowed to have anything special or fun. Cool little class mechanics need to be discarded because some other class cries in pvp. It’s made all the base classes watered down, tepid versions of their former selves. Weapon skills and classes used to feel impactful, and dare I say it fun. Now we have class builds that avoid using class skills other than the ones that have a permanent buff if it’s on your bar. It’s dumb. Combat in eso is dumb.
I'm just so very tired of PVP being "balanced" on the back of PVE. I watch the PVP forum not because I have an interest in it but to have some notice of the next thing I love that will be nerfed.
PS5/NA0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm assuming the toggle is 25% "accessibility" and 75% server load reduction. They have made numerous changes over the last year or so that are directly intended to ease server calculations, and I imagine this is one of them. A set, predictable toggle versus who knows how many players recasting cloak, whether because they don't know any better, or because it's one of the several situations mentioned where cloak fails and you have to reapply.
I have seen a few replies complaining about being able to "perma-cloak" on the PTS with siphoning + rally. The math doesn't really check out for several reasons. You would obviously extend the time you can cloak and move with this strategy, but even ignoring that, you would be devouring your stamina pool, which is necessary for any nightblade, even a magblade, but especially a stamblade.
So yes, you can do it. Yes, it is a stupid strategy and only a small minority of players will use it (or abuse it, if you will). Currently on live, through several shenanigans, you can absolutely sneak in cloak permanently. Doing so comes at the cost of offensive output, which is why next to no one does it. The same will be true if someone tries to cheese through the toggle. There will always be players who just want to troll. You don't balance an entire class because 5 people out of the total PVP population decide to put on heavy wretched vitality, darloc brae, and insert-monster-set-for-proc, then group and tank focus down people for lulz.I drink and I stream things.1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
The thing is Cloak DESERVED a nerf. There is no question or argument to support Cloak in its current state on the live server. Now you could make an argument that Cloak could have been nerfed differently and that I agree with, but Cloak as a whole needs to be nerfed some way or another.
A typical build doesn't crutch on 1 specific skill. You have to account for many variables like # of enemies, what kind of debuffs you will take, how many snares will be applied, etc. If your entire build falls apart because of 1 change, then that build is not a good build.
So to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me on a brawler NB without Cloak:https://youtu.be/8jLkBfvnAW8
I have no problem tanking and kiting 4-5 people on my own without needing Cloak. I built this spec just like how I build every other spec by addressing the necessary variables. In other words, I adjusted and built around a nerf.And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
Cloak in its current state on the live server is why it deserves to be nerfed. I'm sorry but that is the truth. You have the advantage of stealth already, and if you fail to kill me with the first combo, there is no reason for you to disappear again with Cloak without any drawbacks. My only counter for that is a 15s detect pot which you can counter by stacking high movement speed and spamming dodge rolls. The moment my pot expires I basically have zero reliable counter. Not to mention how much sustain I'm giving up when using a detect pot.
How is that not broken?I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
Yes, playing as a ganker is easier because you can pick your fights and reset the fight at will. As a brawlerblade, you will have to deal with multiple enemies at a time and that tends to make inexperienced players die really quickly. Just take a look at Cyrodiil. How many NB 1vXers do you see versus NB gankers? There aren't many because to survive vs 4-5 people and still do good damage is much harder.I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
Yes, I agree that it depends on the player, but it's generally easier and more forgiving to sit in stealth and take on 1 player from stealth than to be completely out there and taking on 4-5 players without Cloak.
Yes, Cloak is so powerful and ganking is so easy that you can play as a Brawlerblade that you "haven't played since 2022", without Cloak, with a copy/pasted brawler build from your Sorc, and have no problems 1vXing.
What?
How does this showcase that Cloak needs a nerf? How does this not showcase that Brawling is actually easy?
I'm fine with a Cloak nerf. I just don't want a janky as heck toggle. The changes ZoS is implementing to Cloak doesn't even address your concerns regarding ganking. Why not just implement a scaling cost or other similar sensible change?
EDIT: I added that last sentence to clarify I'm okay with a Cloak nerf as long as it makes sense.
It showcases NB doesn't need Cloak to perform well.
If you think brawling is easy, please go record a 1v5 and post it here for everyone to see. I've already done my part.
I think ganking is the easiest thing to do in the game, and I will also prove that point by making a gank buildEdited by StaticWave on October 14, 2024 4:46AMPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »
I have seen a few replies complaining about being able to "perma-cloak" on the PTS with siphoning + rally. The math doesn't really check out for several reasons. You would obviously extend the time you can cloak and move with this strategy, but even ignoring that, you would be devouring your stamina pool, which is necessary for any nightblade, even a magblade, but especially a stamblade.
Why do you burn your stam pool with that? Siphoning fills your resources back up through hp cost. Rally heals you back up, provides you Mb as well & if you run vat 2h also brings a proc. I don’t see why this would always be a stupid Option.0 -
Caecus0✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »StaticWave wrote: »Telling people to rebuild around a nerf IS a weak point if the change/nerf is questionable to begin with. The question is WHY should anyone HAVE to rebuild around the nerf. You can scream "just rebuild around the nerf" about ANY change, but doesn't address the question if the nerf/change is justified. ZoS could revert the buff to Hardened Ward and we could say "just rebuild around it." Then again, they could completely neuter Streak by completely removing the Blink and instead making it a massive movement speed bonus and we can still say "just rebuild around it." It doesn't address if the change makes sense.
The thing is Cloak DESERVED a nerf. There is no question or argument to support Cloak in its current state on the live server. Now you could make an argument that Cloak could have been nerfed differently and that I agree with, but Cloak as a whole needs to be nerfed some way or another.
A typical build doesn't crutch on 1 specific skill. You have to account for many variables like # of enemies, what kind of debuffs you will take, how many snares will be applied, etc. If your entire build falls apart because of 1 change, then that build is not a good build.
So to demonstrate my point, here is a clip of me on a brawler NB without Cloak:https://youtu.be/8jLkBfvnAW8
I have no problem tanking and kiting 4-5 people on my own without needing Cloak. I built this spec just like how I build every other spec by addressing the necessary variables. In other words, I adjusted and built around a nerf.And your point about Stage 4 Vampirism (Unnatural Movement) doesn't sense either. You are comparing Sprinting for 3 seconds to gain Cloak vs pressing a button and gaining Cloak. One is useful for traversing quickly and undisturbed, and ganking to an extent (using an attack makes you leave Sprint, which ends invisibility before the ability is casted), the other is an on-demand Cloak that can be used in combat for repositioning or damage since using an ability doesn't remove Cloak until it lands. The two abilities may both have Cloak, but that doesn't mean they function the same.
Cloak in its current state on the live server is why it deserves to be nerfed. I'm sorry but that is the truth. You have the advantage of stealth already, and if you fail to kill me with the first combo, there is no reason for you to disappear again with Cloak without any drawbacks. My only counter for that is a 15s detect pot which you can counter by stacking high movement speed and spamming dodge rolls. The moment my pot expires I basically have zero reliable counter. Not to mention how much sustain I'm giving up when using a detect pot.
How is that not broken?I'm also having trouble understanding your point comparing Brawlerblades and Gankblades. Brawlerblades (or Brawlers in general) are so good that you can 1vX with them, a feat most gankers can't achieve, but gankers are the ones easier to play as?
Yes, playing as a ganker is easier because you can pick your fights and reset the fight at will. As a brawlerblade, you will have to deal with multiple enemies at a time and that tends to make inexperienced players die really quickly. Just take a look at Cyrodiil. How many NB 1vXers do you see versus NB gankers? There aren't many because to survive vs 4-5 people and still do good damage is much harder.I'm not going to pretend being a ganker is easier or harder. It depends on the build, the player using it, and the person you are fighting. I'd argue Ganking is easier to play as against lower to intermediate skill level players because they don't know how to deal with it, but it starts to fall off against better players that know how to block and dodge. Brawlerblades (and Brawler builds in general) are easier to play across the board because of just how efficient Tanky-dps is in this game (for a multitude of reasons), which is why they tend to see more success in 1vX situations as well as duels. I go to a lot of dueling clubs and I hard guarantee you no one is bringing a gankblade unironically.
Yes, I agree that it depends on the player, but it's generally easier and more forgiving to sit in stealth and take on 1 player from stealth than to be completely out there and taking on 4-5 players without Cloak.
Yes, Cloak is so powerful and ganking is so easy that you can play as a Brawlerblade that you "haven't played since 2022", without Cloak, with a copy/pasted brawler build from your Sorc, and have no problems 1vXing.
What?
How does this showcase that Cloak needs a nerf? How does this not showcase that Brawling is actually easy?
I'm fine with a Cloak nerf. I just don't want a janky as heck toggle. The changes ZoS is implementing to Cloak doesn't even address your concerns regarding ganking. Why not just implement a scaling cost or other similar sensible change?
EDIT: I added that last sentence to clarify I'm okay with a Cloak nerf as long as it makes sense.
It showcases NB doesn't need Cloak to perform well.
If you think brawling is easy, please go record a 1v5 and post it here for everyone to see. I've already done my part.
I think ganking is the easiest thing to do in the game, and I will also prove that point by making a gank build
Yes. I got that. So what? That still doesn't explain why Cloak needs a nerf. I'm not saying it doesn't need one, but I'm saying your argument doesn't support that it needs one. I could easily reframe your argument about brawling by saying Cloak is so bad that you can function without it.
I don't need to record that brawling is easy. You literally did that for me with a "copy/pasted build from your Sorc" on a NB that you said you haven't played since 2022. Even if I post a video doing the same thing, it adds nothing that you haven't already added. I also never said it was the easiest thing to do. I said it is easier to Brawl than it is to gank intermediate players that are situationally aware. A good example of this is using a gank build in a high MMR Battleground. It simply won't be as good because players will be on to you and know how to deal with you.
Please answer my question: what is it you are arguing for ZoS to do with Cloak? Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.1 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.
If cloak really needs any changes at all (I personally think it does not), then so be it. I still do think that what ZOS is doing will give the opposite result.
They want cloak to be easier to use and maintain & usable & accessible for all builds, while also making it a bit harder to stay in cloak permanently.... Which is going to fail.
In order for cloak to be usable, it needs to be used for a couple of times. So that you could move from point A to B while staying invisible. On Live server it is possible, since you have magick recovery. So even if you are a stamina build with just base 500 - 600 mag recover, then you can still use Cloak enough times to move from point A to B, but then you have to wait a bit for magicka.
Removal of magicka recovery, kinda destroys that part & stands with contradiction with ZOS goal - to make cloak accessible for all NB build, as they are trying to fix something that is not broken - cuz cloak is already accessible for all NB builds.
It gets even weirder once you factor in equilibrium/siphoning trick. Technically, on live you can do that, but there is no reason to do that as again - on live cloak is already accessible for all NB builds.
After this change, it will be basically mandatory for all NBs to use equilibrium/siphoning in order for cloak to be usable and allow to move from from point A to B. Not a "permanent" use, but rather a use that will be long enough to serve any logical purposes (moving from point A to B & sneaking past enemies).
Now what is easier to do? To press a button every 3 seconds or to press a button and then press another button every 2 seconds ? I think we all know the answer.
Not to mention complications that will occur in an event of detection as many times cloak will still stay "on" & will keep draining mag (again, it kinda proves that invisibility & things that interact with it were never meant to interact with a "toggle" / stance / mode and cloak was never coded to act like this).
Now, whatever or not "permanent" invisibility was ever a thing or not (I think it was not and is a imaginative issue used to give reason for cloak change) is not important at this point. What is important is if Cloak will be a Toggle, then it is bound to be junky & unreliable. All Toggle skills are in ESO. And I can kinda confirm it after some testing on PTS.
So basically, ZOS wants cloak to be easier to use and maintain & usable & accessible for all builds... and it wont be. It will be harder to maintain & less accessible.
On top of that, for whatever reason, they think "permanent" cloak is an issue (which is not cuz who does that ? XD), so they are adding mag recovery block.... which still can be bypassed by potions/sets/skills etc.
The result will be that: Cloak will be harder to use, less accessible, while penitentially still allowing for "permanent" use (not that any one does that as there is no reason for it). But the most important (and maybe intended ?) effect this change is that cloak will be hyper unreliable & buggy (since it is a toggle now).
Personally, I think that If they really want cloak to feel like a "magicka costing sneak", then they should make cost per 2 seconds to scale with movement speed. Yeah, that would work. I mean, right now if you stand still & have like 600 - 700 mag recovery, you can just sit there for like 1h or something. Almost Permanently (Ehm... wasn't permanent cloak an issue a moment ago ? XD) Granted, as soon as you move it will start draining mag, but it is kinda weird that it drains the same magicka if you walk or move at the speed cap. I think that they could add different tiers of cost per second & mag recovery penalty combination, so you can for example move slower, but stay in cloak longer, or you can buff with major expedition and move fast, but burn through magicka like crazy.Edited by Tommy_The_Gun on October 14, 2024 6:22PM7 -
Caecus0✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.
If cloak really needs any changes at all (I personally think it does not), then so be it. I still do think that what ZOS is doing will give the opposite result.
They want cloak to be easier to use and maintain & usable & accessible for all builds, while also making it a bit harder to stay in cloak permanently.... Which is going to fail.
In order for cloak to be usable, it needs to be used for a couple of times. So that you could move from point A to B while staying invisible. On Live server it is possible, since you have magick recovery. So even if you are a stamina build with just base 500 - 600 mag recover, then you can still use Cloak enough times to move from point A to B, but then you have to wait a bit for magicka.
Removal of magicka recovery, kinda destroys that part & stands with contradiction with ZOS goal - to make cloak accessible for all NB build, as they are trying to fix something that is not broken - cuz cloak is already accessible for all NB builds.
It gets even weirder once you factor in equilibrium/siphoning trick. Technically, on live you can do that, but there is no reason to do that as again - on live cloak is already accessible for all NB builds.
After this change, it will be basically mandatory for all NBs to use equilibrium/siphoning in order for cloak to be usable and allow to move from from point A to B. Not a "permanent" use, but rather a use that will be long enough to serve any logical purposes (moving from point A to B & sneaking past enemies).
Now what is easier to do? To press a button every 3 seconds or to press a button and then press another button every 2 seconds ? I think we all know the answer.
Not to mention complications that will occur in an even of detection as many times cloak will still stay "on" & will keep draining mag (again, it kinda proves that invisibility & things that interact with it were never meant to interact with a "toggle" / stance / mode and cloak was never coded to act like this).
Now, whatever or not "permanent" invisibility was ever a thing or not (I think it was not and is a imaginative issue used to give reason for cloak change) is not important at this point. What is important is if Cloak will be a Toggle, then it is bound to be junky & unreliable. All Toggle skills are in ESO. And I can kinda confirm it after some testing on PTS.
So basically, ZOS wants cloak to be easier to use and maintain & usable & accessible for all builds... and it wont be. It will be harder to maintain & less accessible.
On top of that, for whatever reason, they think "permanent" cloak is an issue (which is not cuz who does that ? XD), so they are adding mag recovery block.... which still can be bypassed by potions/sets/skills etc.
The result will be that: Cloak will be harder to use, less accessible, while penitentially still allowing for "permanent" use (not that any one does that as there is no reason for it). But the most important (and maybe intended ?) effect this change is that cloak will be hyper unreliable & buggy (since it is a toggle now).
Personally, I think that If they really want cloak to feel like a "magicka costing sneak", then they should make cost per 2 seconds to scale with movement speed. Yeah, that would work. I mean, right now if you stand still & have like 600 - 700 mag recovery, you can just sit there for like 1h or something. Almost Permanently (Ehm... wasn't permanent cloak an issue a moment ago ? XD) Granted, as soon as you move it will start draining mag, but it is kinda weird that it drains the same magicka if you walk or move at the speed cap. I think that they could add different tiers of cost per second & mag recovery penalty combination, so you can for example move slower, but stay in cloak longer, or you can buff with major expedition and move fast, but burn through magicka like crazy.
So yes and no. ZoS doesn't JUST want to make it more accessible and easier to use. They ALSO wanted to make it harder to perma-stealth. They said as much in the Dev on that page. They seem to think that this is the way to do it. You (and others) basically outlined why it really isn't.
Honestly the whole "accessibility" part of it is just really odd. I'm seriously unsure of who it currently isn't "Accessible" to in its current form, and I'm genuinely curious about it. Is it really that hard to push a button every 3 seconds? Or perhaps crouch everywhere in between?
EDIT: And to be fair, perma-cloak is kind of a problem... Kind of. Magblades and Hybrids can just do it because their recovery will be high enough for them to not care about the costs. It's not LITERALLY permanent, but it can feel that way facing it. Stamblades can do it by utilizing Siphoning Attacks and Rally, although it forces them to go 2h. Honestly, this really only became a bigger problem when they 1) Changed Siphoning Strikes and 2) Made it so DoTs don't remove Cloak anymore (specifically Structured Entropy and Weakness to Elements). One could just as easily argue that the new Siphoning Attacks is catering to the problem more than Cloak itself. Combine that with the fact that a lot of players don't want to slot a reveal of any kind (probably because Weakness to Elements WAS their reveal)... It can sometimes feel like fighting a Streak spamming Sorc and not having a gap closer. I'm not saying I agree with it, but I understand it.Edited by Caecus0 on October 14, 2024 6:27PM0 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »
I have seen a few replies complaining about being able to "perma-cloak" on the PTS with siphoning + rally. The math doesn't really check out for several reasons. You would obviously extend the time you can cloak and move with this strategy, but even ignoring that, you would be devouring your stamina pool, which is necessary for any nightblade, even a magblade, but especially a stamblade.
Why do you burn your stam pool with that? Siphoning fills your resources back up through hp cost. Rally heals you back up, provides you Mb as well & if you run vat 2h also brings a proc. I don’t see why this would always be a stupid Option.
Because of costs.
Let's just talk base costs, because things change a little depending on variables.
Siphoning costs 4k health.
Rally heals 1250.
Siphoning grants 2k stamina.
Rally costs 3780.
You're always going to use more stamina than you return while sneaking.
So let's say I have 5k stamina and 5k magicka left of 20k pools. I have 30k health.
I hit siphoning 4 times. I now get 8k stamina and 4k magicka putting me at 13k each. This cost me 16k health. I would have to hit Rally 8-12 times depending on crits to make that up. I don't have enough stamina to do that.
"But you wouldn't do that. You would alternative."
Okay. Same scenario.
5k stamina
5k magicka
30k health
Every hit of siphoning returns 2k magicka and 2k stamina, while eating 4k health (it's actually 4320 for me, but we'll stick with 4k).
Every hit of Rally heals 1250 but eats 3780 stamina.
So in that scenario, every 2 global cooldowns you are:
Gaining 2k Magicka
Losing 1,780 Stmaina.
Losing 1,246 Health (though will change based on critical heals)
What this lets you do is completely negate the cloak toggle, but you will eventually run out of stamina, so you do not have infinite sneak and you will lose the ability to roll dodge, block and sprint.
The only scenario I can see this working is on a magblade who does not sneak, this way you are always getting stamina recovery. With bear haunch and a recovery set, you can keep your stamina pool filled. If you are running a recovery set, you are losing a damage set.
Those players will be far and few between, and will likely be playing tankier characters anyway. So you may see a small number grouped, or one of them in a group with other tanky DDs, so they can focus down people.
Point being, this will not be the typical nightblade player, because MOST nightblade gank players like to actually kill people 1v1 and don't sweat getting killed like others do.
Every class has its "cheese build" that a small number will run for the lulz. The issue is when those cheese builds are adopted by a significant portion of the player base. What I described above isn't what I, or most NBs, would consider fun, because you're boxing yourself into just being an annoyance, light attacking with a staff on the outside, and being dependent on others to do all your damage for you.
Or at least, that's my prediction. We'll see!I drink and I stream things.2 -
ioResult✭✭✭
You are going to see a good number of long time Nightblades try to make it work for a few weeks and then fail to make it work to their satisfaction.DrSlaughtr wrote: »Or at least, that's my prediction. We'll see!
When they express their dissatisfaction in zone chat or Discords, they will be given unkillable Sorc or Warden "Heals + Shields" builds by other disgruntled former Nightblade mains so they can all just get together and occupy keeps and resources that the tower jockeys and ball groups want to take.
The former Nightblades will just stand on flags and laugh as neither group who cried for this Cloak ubernerf can take any more keeps or resources because the 24+ strong group of former Nightblades is now 12 Sorcs with super stacked shields and heals that is handing out Negates like Halloween candy while 12 Wardens just heal the entire group as well as nearby pugs right through all the stupid Rush of Agony pull-in Ultidumping nonsense that both groups relied on the previous few patches for their PvP "fun".But yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
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Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.StaticWave wrote: »If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.
Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.
STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?
I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol1 -
ioResult✭✭✭
Why is it so difficult for people to understand that using Cloak and being a gankblade can be two different things?Alchimiste1 wrote: »I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lolBut yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
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bladenick✭✭✭With so many good proc gear roll out, I see no way not nerf cloak, current cloak in live sever make the proc gank too easy to handle
This change definitely destroy other non ganker play style as side effect, but I see no other way as DEV definitely won’t re-do those proc gear, nerf cloak shall most easy solutionsEdited by bladenick on October 15, 2024 12:25AM0 -
Alchimiste1✭✭✭✭✭
Why is it so difficult for people to understand that using Cloak and being a gankblade can be two different things?Alchimiste1 wrote: »I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol
What’s your build ? I’ll try it out and get back to you1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Yes. I got that. So what? That still doesn't explain why Cloak needs a nerf. I'm not saying it doesn't need one, but I'm saying your argument doesn't support that it needs one. I could easily reframe your argument about brawling by saying Cloak is so bad that you can function without it.
Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:
- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack
Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.I don't need to record that brawling is easy. You literally did that for me with a "copy/pasted build from your Sorc" on a NB that you said you haven't played since 2022. Even if I post a video doing the same thing, it adds nothing that you haven't already added. I also never said it was the easiest thing to do. I said it is easier to Brawl than it is to gank intermediate players that are situationally aware. A good example of this is using a gank build in a high MMR Battleground. It simply won't be as good because players will be on to you and know how to deal with you.
Maybe I am just a good player? You said it yourself. It's more about the player behind the build right?
I can guarantee you many people in Cyrodiil are running around in a brawler build and are still getting folded left and right. You trying to dismiss the skill involved to survive outnumbered doesn't make your argument look strong at all. Surviving against 5+ enemies in a non-dedicated tank build is always difficult, regardless of what spec you're on. It doesn't matter if you're in 40k resists or 20k resists. If you don't keep up a solid defensive rotation, you are not surviving anything.Please answer my question: what is it you are arguing for ZoS to do with Cloak? Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.
I am arguing for a ramping cost increase. In fact, you can type in the search bar and see how many threads asking for Cloak to receive a ramping cost:
In fact, there is a 25 page thread about giving Cloak a ramping cost since July 2023:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638298/ramping-cost-for-nightblade-cloak/p1
You know what happened? Many NB mains didn't want Cloak to be changed. I'm sorry but you guys brought this upon yourself. We already tried to give you a more reasonable change but you guys didn't listen. You guys never wanted Cloak nerfed, so when ZOS does their usual stuff with over nerfing things, don't complain about it lol.
Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc3 -
ioResult✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »You know what happened? Many NB mains didn't want Cloak to be changed. I'm sorry but you guys brought this upon yourself. We already tried to give you a more reasonable change but you guys didn't listen. You guys never wanted Cloak nerfed, so when ZOS does their usual stuff with over nerfing things, don't complain about it lol.
Why are you still here? You got what you wanted. Leave us who actually played Nightblade alone and shut the **** up already. Many of my Nightblade friends are leaving the game completely now. I am turning off my ESO Plus the day the new patch hits. Good luck running on your brawlblade, which as I said takes no skill whatsoever.But yeah ZOS...Cloak is the problem.
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StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »You know what happened? Many NB mains didn't want Cloak to be changed. I'm sorry but you guys brought this upon yourself. We already tried to give you a more reasonable change but you guys didn't listen. You guys never wanted Cloak nerfed, so when ZOS does their usual stuff with over nerfing things, don't complain about it lol.
Why are you still here? You got what you wanted. Leave us who actually played Nightblade alone and shut the **** up already. Many of my Nightblade friends are leaving the game completely now. I am turning off my ESO Plus the day the new patch hits. Good luck running on your brawlblade, which as I said takes no skill whatsoever.
Lmaoooo that's hilariousPlatform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭Alchimiste1 wrote: »
You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.StaticWave wrote: »If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.
Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.
STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?
I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol
Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.
Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.
Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.I drink and I stream things.4 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DrSlaughtr wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »
You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.StaticWave wrote: »If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.
Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.
STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?
I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol
Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.
Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.
Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.
See I agree with this comparison. But let’s also be honest here. How many NB gankers do you see in Cyrodiil actually try to take on a 40k HP DK and winning by himself?
I strictly play outnumbered PvP and what I notice is that most NB gankers can’t do what you said. The majority of them usually prefer to Xv1, and I completely understand why. Building tanky in this game has always been more efficient than building damage, so it makes sense to require multiple gankers to take down 1 guy.
What I don’t understand is why they’re saying it’s easy mode to play a brawler build. Both builds require some form of skill, but to claim that a brawler build is easy mode is just straight up lying lol. In fact, I gave some dude a full tank build last week and he could only survive up to 3 players before dying.
If anything, a gank build is generally more forgiving due to the stealth and Cloaking mechanics. Inexperienced players tend to panic when under pressure and would forget their defensive rotation or not even play defense at all. In those scenarios, hitting Cloak to escape or staying out of the fight via stealth are better choices for them.Platform:
PC NA
Main:
Static Wave - AD stamsorc1 -
DrSlaughtr✭✭✭✭✭
✭StaticWave wrote: »DrSlaughtr wrote: »Alchimiste1 wrote: »
You're not proving any point. Anyone - literally anyone with two thumbs - can run a brawler Nightblade today and be successful at it in Cyrodiil. It is the one playstyle of Nightblade that is in fact, OP. Any idiot can play it if they can play a DK, Warden or Sorc.StaticWave wrote: »If you built tanky like every other brawlerblade you would have no issue with Cloak change.
In fact I’m gearing up my NB which I have not touched since 2022 and I will 1vX with it to prove a point lol.
The point is we don't WANT to play our Nightblades that way because there is literally no challenge to it. I already said in a previous post that if I wanted to brawl and play EZ Mode PvP that I'd literally just play my Warden in Cyrodiil.
Get on your squishy Nightblade and try NOT to be a brawler. TRY to play the class the way it was intended when the game was first launched. I'll bet anything that you'll be exactly like the rest of the sweaties on DKs, Wardens & Sorcs when they try to play a squishy Nightblade and you'll run right back onto your tanky toon just like they did once you get clapped ten times in 2 minutes on a squishy Nightblade.
STOP trying to tell us to brawl. We KNOW we can brawl. ANY idiot can brawl on a Nightblade. It's dead simple. It's easy with the tank meta plus Scribing to play ANY class nowadays as a tanky zergling. It literally takes no skill these days to play a tanky build of any class and surf the zerg. We have no idea who you think you're proving anything to if you haven't played a Nightblade in nearly 3 years and your plan is to go full Brawblade. You will impress no one. We don't care. You don't play Nightblade. Why are you even in this thread?
I tried the gankblade.
It's very fun. But there is no way I would say its challenging lol
Attacking someone on siege or standing around? Not difficult at all.
Fighting an actively defending/fighting 40k health DK and winning on a NB with 26k health and 10k armor? The most fun I have in this game and absolutely not easy.
Anything can be easy in specific circumstances. A tank holding block while casting recovery and healing isn't hard against 1 or 2 players. Doing it against 15 is a different story.
See I agree with this comparison. But let’s also be honest here. How many NB gankers do you see in Cyrodiil actually try to take on a 40k HP DK and winning by himself?
I strictly play outnumbered PvP and what I notice is that most NB gankers can’t do what you said. The majority of them usually prefer to Xv1, and I completely understand why. Building tanky in this game has always been more efficient than building damage, so it makes sense to require multiple gankers to take down 1 guy.
What I don’t understand is why they’re saying it’s easy mode to play a brawler build. Both builds require some form of skill, but to claim that a brawler build is easy mode is just straight up lying lol. In fact, I gave some dude a full tank build last week and he could only survive up to 3 players before dying.
If anything, a gank build is generally more forgiving due to the stealth and Cloaking mechanics. Inexperienced players tend to panic when under pressure and would forget their defensive rotation or not even play defense at all. In those scenarios, hitting Cloak to escape or staying out of the fight via stealth are better choices for them.
I think there are easy ways to play brawler and hard ways just like everything else. I started out as a melee brawler. It depends on your goal. Do you care about doing more damage than dying or vice versa. Things like that go into how you build.
I don't think any class with be balanced by how easily the least experienced players are killed by it.I drink and I stream things.2 -
YandereGirlfriend✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »Yes. I got that. So what? That still doesn't explain why Cloak needs a nerf. I'm not saying it doesn't need one, but I'm saying your argument doesn't support that it needs one. I could easily reframe your argument about brawling by saying Cloak is so bad that you can function without it.
Lol you can't reframe my argument to make Cloak look bad at all because I was gimping myself not using Cloak. These are the things I gave up for not using Cloak:
- 10% extra damage for Concealed Weapon
- 300 extra spell damage from stage 2 vamp
- Guaranteed crit for my next direct dmg attack
Even if I get revealed instantly, I am still gaining a huge offensive and defensive advantage. There are no arguments you can make to put Cloak under a bad light, sorry.I don't need to record that brawling is easy. You literally did that for me with a "copy/pasted build from your Sorc" on a NB that you said you haven't played since 2022. Even if I post a video doing the same thing, it adds nothing that you haven't already added. I also never said it was the easiest thing to do. I said it is easier to Brawl than it is to gank intermediate players that are situationally aware. A good example of this is using a gank build in a high MMR Battleground. It simply won't be as good because players will be on to you and know how to deal with you.
Maybe I am just a good player? You said it yourself. It's more about the player behind the build right?
I can guarantee you many people in Cyrodiil are running around in a brawler build and are still getting folded left and right. You trying to dismiss the skill involved to survive outnumbered doesn't make your argument look strong at all. Surviving against 5+ enemies in a non-dedicated tank build is always difficult, regardless of what spec you're on. It doesn't matter if you're in 40k resists or 20k resists. If you don't keep up a solid defensive rotation, you are not surviving anything.Please answer my question: what is it you are arguing for ZoS to do with Cloak? Several people in this thread, including myself, are okay with a nerf as long as it isn't a janky as heck toggle, or making the toggle cost Magicka every 1 second instead of 2. I've personally suggested a Scaling cost because it seems sensible as a starting point since they fixed the DoT bug in U43.
I am arguing for a ramping cost increase. In fact, you can type in the search bar and see how many threads asking for Cloak to receive a ramping cost:
In fact, there is a 25 page thread about giving Cloak a ramping cost since July 2023:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/638298/ramping-cost-for-nightblade-cloak/p1
You know what happened? Many NB mains didn't want Cloak to be changed. I'm sorry but you guys brought this upon yourself. We already tried to give you a more reasonable change but you guys didn't listen. You guys never wanted Cloak nerfed, so when ZOS does their usual stuff with over nerfing things, don't complain about it lol.
I don't really have a dog in this fight but you're 100% right about this observation.
It is natural for players to argue that their gravy train should continue because we're all self-interested... but in the end the nerfbat comes for us all (laughs in Necro main).
If Cloak had received the ramping treatment years ago then this entire situation likely wouldn't be happening at all. But instead we heard why adding a ramping cost would totally kill the class, be completely unplayable, etc. Which, of course, wasn't true. But it was a convenient argument that bought a few more patch cycles of the gravy train.
(Anyone still defending Hardened Ward and MagSorcs should probably take note of how this situation played out as well. The pro tip is to take the small L now to avoid taking the bigger L later.)3