Another Well Known Trading Guild Basically bites the Dust

DenverRalphy

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

BlueRaven

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

AzuraFan

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm saving master writs on 3 girls (different accounts) for the class script scraps. That's the only thing I'm doing differently than "whatever's normal"....

Don't save them up because you can only get 1 class scrap per account per day from doing a master writ. So you should do one writ a day. That's what I've been doing for the past while. Three to go and I'm done. I started blowing through my master writs because I had way more than I needed to complete the achievement.

DenverRalphy

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

TaSheen

AzuraFan wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

I'm saving master writs on 3 girls (different accounts) for the class script scraps. That's the only thing I'm doing differently than "whatever's normal"....

Don't save them up because you can only get 1 class scrap per account per day from doing a master writ. So you should do one writ a day. That's what I've been doing for the past while. Three to go and I'm done. I started blowing through my master writs because I had way more than I needed to complete the achievement.

That's what I meant. I've got a stash on each, and I'm turning in one per day.

AzuraFan

TaSheen wrote: »

That's what I meant. I've got a stash on each, and I'm turning in one per day.

Ah, ok. I thought by saving you meant saving 50 and then doing them all. Glad to hear you're not doing that.

TaSheen

AzuraFan wrote: »

TaSheen wrote: »

That's what I meant. I've got a stash on each, and I'm turning in one per day.

Ah, ok. I thought by saving you meant saving 50 and then doing them all. Glad to hear you're not doing that.

Oh, heck no! I read everything I could find on the forum before I finished the quest line the first time.... my usual "go-to" mode. Saves making silly errors!

CGPsaint

I used to move 40-50 items per day across 10 traders and now I call it a good day if I move 5-10 items per day. Same general items that I'm selling. Most of my mail these days are expired items that didn't sell. Good times. Several of my guilds are regularly doing raffles to generate enough gold to maintain traders in main cities. I'm not going to try and pinpoint the reason for the decline, but I will say that West Weald is a ghost town outside of primetime, which is not encouraging. Mayhem is going on and outside of Gray Host, most of the servers are also a ghost town until the evening. Here's hoping that it's just a summer slowdown and that things will pick back up in the Fall.

DenverRalphy

CGPsaint wrote: »

I used to move 40-50 items per day across 10 traders and now I call it a good day if I move 5-10 items per day. Same general items that I'm selling. Most of my mail these days are expired items that didn't sell. Good times. Several of my guilds are regularly doing raffles to generate enough gold to maintain traders in main cities. I'm not going to try and pinpoint the reason for the decline, but I will say that West Weald is a ghost town outside of primetime, which is not encouraging. Mayhem is going on and outside of Gray Host, most of the servers are also a ghost town until the evening. Here's hoping that it's just a summer slowdown and that things will pick back up in the Fall.

I bolded the part that likely shows why your sales have dropped. You haven't shifted with the market. You're trying to sell the same thing when realistically, the market demands shift. Myself personally, lately I've been grumbling that I can't keep my slots filled because they empty so quickly (a good problem to have).

I_killed_Vivec

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

More like you used to eat an apple a day and never got the flu but as soon as you stopped eating apples you did get the flu.

You might think that apples prevented you getting the flu... you might think it would be a good idea to start eating them again.

And you might think that as you like apples it seemed perverse to stop eating them in the first place.

Highwayman

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I bolded the part that likely shows why your sales have dropped. You haven't shifted with the market. You're trying to sell the same thing when realistically, the market demands shift. Myself personally, lately I've been grumbling that I can't keep my slots filled because they empty so quickly (a good problem to have).

Are you going to start handing out copies of "Who Moved My Cheese?" then? I am having flashbacks to my first real job 25 years ago. Man that *** seemed so condescending back then. It could have been one sentence... "learn to adapt" and yeah I have that figured out. It shocks me a half a lifetime later how many people I've met with mercantile proclivities that really need the lesson.

sarahthes

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Given that sales started dropping before the change was introduced - yes, it's a coincidence, or at least not the main contributor.

Also, I filled 60 slots on Tuesday and sold all of them by Thursday so it's mostly about what you list and how much you can afford to undercut. You'll still sell if you list the right items for the right prices.

I_killed_Vivec

sarahthes wrote: »

I filled 60 slots on Tuesday and sold all of them by Thursday so it's mostly about what you list and how much you can afford to undercut. You'll still sell if you list the right items for the right prices.

Clearly, anyone can sell if they are prepared to reduce prices to the extent they are undercutting all of the market - assuming there is still a demand.

I'm glad that you admit that is what you are doing, because that's the problem - prices are on an unsustainable downwards spiral and each undercut puts on further deflationary pressure.

As you say, sales depend on how much you can afford to undercut. When that limit is reached, and you can no longer afford to undercut, then you will stop trading.

Which is precisely what the OP is pointing out - guilds are already finding the loss in sales unsustainable.

Elsonso

DenverRalphy wrote: »

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

The key takeaway seems to be that you don’t know whether oranges and cancer are linked. The argument can go either way, as is the case here about what impact ZOS gameplay changes may have on player behavior in game. We don’t have the information and everything is opinion. That is really what this is about. Opinion. I doubt that ZOS even knows for sure, although, like the players, I am sure they will have an opinion, too.

I can’t say what is at the core of the price drops. I can say that they made trading more annoying for some players, and as trading is linked to the economy, the two could have a causal relationship.

It also could be dissatisfaction with Gold Road, or even just knee jerk reaction from players based on perception. A lot of stock market like stuff seems to follow the flock of birds phenomenon, and that cannot be discounted.

valenwood_vegan

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

Clearly, anyone can sell if they are prepared to reduce prices to the extent they are undercutting all of the market - assuming there is still a demand.

I'm glad that you admit that is what you are doing, because that's the problem - prices are on an unsustainable downwards spiral and each undercut puts on further deflationary pressure.

As you say, sales depend on how much you can afford to undercut. When that limit is reached, and you can no longer afford to undercut, then you will stop trading.

Which is precisely what the OP is pointing out - guilds are already finding the loss in sales unsustainable.

Agree with this. Can only speak for myself, but I could keep lowering prices more and more trying to force things to sell, but why? There's a point where it's not worth the trouble - for me that's been reached and I've just stopped bothering. Of course I'll still try and sell the occasional rare / valuable item I happen to come across, but the number of items that aren't worth trying to sell keeps increasing... I'd estimate that at this point I vendor about 90% of what I pick up in the game. A formerly religious mat farmer, I now leave most nodes behind as I run by. I no longer spend time doing daily writs. I've actually removed all skill points from hirelings. I'm just tired of sorting through junk. All of this reduces time spent in / engagement with the game.

Same for many others in my trading guilds. Others may reach that point at different times. But right off the top of my head, I can name ~30 very active traders who have suddenly vanished from my guilds. And although their primary activity might have been trading, these were all players who talked in chat, participated in events, provided cool lots for auctions, pvp'ed or ran vet dungeons or trials, helped new players, built beautiful houses. Love or hate the trading system, losing players like this is a loss for everyone.

I can't predict the future, but it's a troubling sign when many formerly very active traders (who, keep in mind, also do other things in the game) don't even want to bother with trading, and players of any kind losing interest is not good for the game. Those who have been here long enough have watched endgame raiders and pvp'ers lose interest and their communities dwindle; the same may happen with trading if current trends continue.

Vulkunne

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

I know several Trade Guilds who have been forced to 'suspend' their raffles and change their policies because of recent changes from ZOS. Guilds being forced to change their operations so quickly has caused alot of problems and not just for the Guild mgmt. but others within the Guild having to contribute more to keep their Kiosk. Reducing the sales duration has also created issues because everyone is forced to sell lower now. The thing is this, different Guilds, and players, have different sales strategies. As they say, time is money and more profit from more exclusive merch can be realized over time. Now, the market trend has changed noticeably, forcing things to sell much faster, albeit in some instances at only a fraction of what it could have been worth.

Players are forced to take losses while trying to fund a Guild's Kiosk, of which now they won't realize as much profit from and in some cases will no longer have a raffle to help compensate them. Kiosk is so expensive it only makes sense that the sellers get everything they can out of what an item is worth. But now everyone is forced to go for the 'quick sale' instead of there being other options. I'm one of those people who marks down things and goes for that 'quick sale' however now that everyone is forced to play the game this way, I make less. Some things won't sell at all unless I basically give them away because too many people are just doing whatever it takes to move something. Therefore, some items I don't even try to sell now, because competition is too high and the value has dropped so much so that it's just not worth it, I know others who have said the same and so availability of some items has also taken collateral damage as well.

This has created alot of pain and suffering in the market and yeah, some things are less expensive but alot of value has been lost from the economy and Kiosks prices are still very high. In short, ZOS changes are responsible for what we've been experiencing and much of the problems that already exists were culminated when the rng loot tables dropped for some expensive items and especially when the sales duration was shortened to two weeks max. Reducing the sales time greatly reduced the profit ceiling for many items. Thus, Guilds & players are realizing less profit, and Guilds are collapsing trying to hold onto their Kiosk with follow-up sales not strong enough to sustain them and shorter duration sales are killing profits.

It's a vicious cycle killing Trade Guilds and while prices are lower, the things we wish to sell are also worth less. Makes me wonder if those who complained previously about things being so expensive are happy making less gold now, if any at all.

DenverRalphy

Vulkunne wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

I know several Trade Guilds who have been forced to 'suspend' their raffles and change their policies because of recent changes from ZOS. Guilds being forced to change their operations so quickly has caused alot of problems and not just for the Guild mgmt. but others within the Guild having to contribute more to keep their Kiosk. Reducing the sales duration has also created issues because everyone is forced to sell lower now. The thing is this, different Guilds, and players, have different sales strategies. As they say, time is money and more profit from more exclusive merch can be realized over time. Now, the market trend has changed noticeably, forcing things to sell much faster, albeit in some instances at only a fraction of what it could have been worth.

Players are forced to take losses while trying to fund a Guild's Kiosk, of which now they won't realize as much profit from and in some cases will no longer have a raffle to help compensate them. Kiosk is so expensive it only makes sense that the sellers get everything they can out of what an item is worth. But now everyone is forced to go for the 'quick sale' instead of there being other options. I'm one of those people who marks down things and goes for that 'quick sale' however now that everyone is forced to play the game this way, I make less. Some things won't sell at all unless I basically give them away because too many people are just doing whatever it takes to move something. Therefore, some items I don't even try to sell now, because competition is too high and the value has dropped so much so that it's just not worth it, I know others who have said the same and so availability of some items has also taken collateral damage as well.

This has created alot of pain and suffering in the market and yeah, some things are less expensive but alot of value has been lost from the economy and Kiosks prices are still very high. In short, ZOS changes are responsible for what we've been experiencing and much of the problems that already exists were culminated when the rng loot tables dropped for some expensive items and especially when the sales duration was shortened to two weeks max. Reducing the sales time greatly reduced the profit ceiling for many items. Thus, Guilds & players are realizing less profit, and Guilds are collapsing trying to hold onto their Kiosk with follow-up sales not strong enough to sustain them and shorter duration sales are killing profits.

It's a vicious cycle killing Trade Guilds and while prices are lower, the things we wish to sell are also worth less. Makes me wonder if those who complained previously about things being so expensive are happy making less gold now, if any at all.

The flaw in the logic within that wall of text, is that if another guild can take that spot, that's not on ZoS.

The only thing ZoS has done that would affect the sales revenue, is that they dumped boatloads of resources into the players hands. That affects everyone universally. It doesn't kill off guilds, it simply shifts the market. It's a guild's inability to adjust and adapt that kills a guild. I know of several top tier trade guilds that not only are they doing just fine, they're thriving.

Top Tier Trade Guilds drop off pretty regularly for a myriad of reasons. But somehow nobody really seems to take note unless there's a preceived (real or imaginary) way to blame it on ZoS.

BlueRaven

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

It’s called “cause and effect”. They changed a basic way trade guilds work and it caused after effects.

Saying now that trader guilds were falling before hand, when there were scant posts claiming that was happening before the changes is hardly proof of anything.

Meanwhile, players are still complaining about the mail/trader changes right now.

DenverRalphy

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

It’s called “cause and effect”. They changed a basic way trade guilds work and it caused after effects.

Saying now that trader guilds were falling before hand, when there were scant posts claiming that was happening before the changes is hardly proof of anything.

Meanwhile, players are still complaining about the mail/trader changes right now.

No. No they did not.

Zos made zero changes to the way trade guilds work. Trade guilds still work the same way. Members list items for sale, other players buy said items. Guild profits or doesn't profit depending upon what they offer to sell. The change to listing times does not change that. The change in listing times does not actionably impact player/guild profits from selling their wares, with the exception of Multi-Million Valued items which accounts for a small drop in the bucket of overall guild sales.

Wildberryjack

Ever since these changes I haven't hardly sold anything. Nothing is moving anymore. Everyone in the trading guilds I'm in are having the same problem. One already stopped bidding on a trader because they're not pulling in enough gold to do so anymore. I'm now making my gold from crafting dailies instead of trader sales. It's quickly reaching the point I don't see the advantage to list on a trader anymore at all.

darvaria

I buy exclusively from TCC, based on price. So, I don't notice guild traders moving around.

I have noticed all the yellow gear/jewelry upgrades are much cheaper now. Could this be partially from increased gathering for inks, therefore more upgrades on the market?

Currently, I'm not in a trade guild because I can buy enough crowns and sell gifts to get all the gold I need.

BlueRaven

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

It’s called “cause and effect”. They changed a basic way trade guilds work and it caused after effects.

Saying now that trader guilds were falling before hand, when there were scant posts claiming that was happening before the changes is hardly proof of anything.

Meanwhile, players are still complaining about the mail/trader changes right now.

No. No they did not.

Zos made zero changes to the way trade guilds work. Trade guilds still work the same way. Members list items for sale, other players buy said items. Guild profits or doesn't profit depending upon what they offer to sell. The change to listing times does not change that. The change in listing times does not actionably impact player/guild profits from selling their wares, with the exception of Multi-Million Valued items which accounts for a small drop in the bucket of overall guild sales.

Yes they did. In two major ways.

Maybe to you they were not a big deal. But to a lot of players they were. And even if 1/4 of the players don’t like it and decide they don’t want to participate anymore or even less, it’s a major deal.

hiyde

While we can't be 100% sure of precisely what thing, or chain of things, caused the rapid, massive deflation in the economy, we do know why a lot of the people that stopped trading and/or took a break from (or left) the game did it.

We know that because they are saying it here, in guild chats, guild discords, e-mail goodbye notes, etc:
Frustrated with the massive drops in value, with inability to sell even at lowered prices, the listings changes and lack of excitement for Gold Road.

Yes, guilds are lowering their bids. It's a pretty easy leap that if sales/values are 35% of what they were, the bids should be ~35% of what they were.

Unfortunately, in a lot of trading guilds, due to the issues outlined, contributions are falling even faster, making it tough to cover even the lower bids. Participation in fundraising (i.e. Raffles & Auctions, which routinely cover more than 1/2 the bid) is way down.

Perhaps all of this will lead to a new, lower ratio of bids to sales (which would be awesome). Or maybe it'll lead to an inability to cover the bids and more solid trade guilds will take steps like this guild did. Time will tell.

If you're still trading, in trade guilds that you really like, my advice is to do your best to help support them & keep them around. Creating & maintaining a successful trading guild of 500 people is no small feat or time commitment from the volunteers that do it.

quinancia

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

This doesn't really have anything to do with anyone's arguments. It is purely for your own edification, but that is not what ad-hominem means.

When we use ad-hominem what we mean is that rather than discussing the merits of an argument, one is attacking the person making the argument. So, if someone says I am an idiot and don't know what I am talking about, that is an ad-hominem argument. If two things are un-related, that is not ad-hominem. If things are un-related, that might be a causal fallacy.

LaintalAy

edited

code65536

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

I'm glad that you admit that is what you are doing, because that's the problem - prices are on an unsustainable downwards spiral and each undercut puts on further deflationary pressure.

Wow. You sound so accusatory, like that was a bad thing and that she's some evil mastermind who's the cause of all your pricing woes.

If her prices were indeed "too low", then some intrepid player will buy up all her listings and relist them at a higher price and make a killing by flipping. Yea, it's scalping and sucks for the people who are looking for a bargain, but arbitrage is one of the mechanisms by which prices "correct" themselves when a price is too low.

But if there's not enough demand for that higher price to be sustainable, then people undercutting each other is the mechanism by which prices "correct" themselves in the other direction.

Look, I remember the days when Dreugh Wax was worth 4K on PC/NA. And I remember people going on about how inflation was ruining the game when wax hit that magical 5-figure mark of 10K. Wax might have fallen from the 40K peak to 16K, but even at 16K, it's still 4x what it used to be. So, clearly more price correction is needed.

Meanwhile, I would like to thank all the undercutters for doing their small part in moving this price correction along.

FlopsyPrince

Veritaz wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

They are not forced to bid on any location at all; they choose the location that they prefer.
When bidding, they choose the amount; it is not pre-defined.

This is like saying people are not forced to buy the game if they don’t like the price. It’s an intentionally simplistic interpretation of the situation. Guilds are not forced to pay for popular locations of course, but if they want to participate in the game in the way they and their members have come to enjoy it, then yes they need to achieve top bid to secure the spot. And if they don’t bid high then some other guild will do so. I love this game and I will continue trying to make trading work, but these latest changes are having a very negative effect. Your point about this being the only change ever made to the trading system just proves the point that it has obviously been working mostly fine for many years.

Your point about "not being forced" is used against almost any request.

I completely disagree with your final point however. The current system sucks in many ways. People played and used it anyways, but finding things and knowing good prices to sell things for has been an issue for a long time, especially on console. Even TTC only slightly helps that.

I bought 2 motifs today on PS5. No idea if they were truly at a good price or not, but I decided to burn more money than I wanted to complete a couple of Master Writs, one of which I learned thinking I already knew the style.

Many bad things in the game persist not because they are good, but because people tolerate them.

FlopsyPrince

I_killed_Vivec wrote: »

LaintalAy wrote: »

• People complained that prices, in general, were too high.
• The 14 day listing change has affected some players. Other players, by their own admission, aren't affected.
• This is the only change made by ZOS to the 'trading system', possibly ever.
• There have been changes to other aspects of the game.
• There have been some activities that made some items more readily available.
• 99.9% of things listed at Guild traders were found in the game by players.
• Overall, prices have come down.

Please review what I understand to be the facts and correct me where I'm wrong.

Players wanted their free items to be cheaper. Now they are.

The problems now facing Guilds and their owners are entirely of their own making.
They are not forced to bid on any location at all; they choose the location that they prefer.
When bidding, they choose the amount; it is not pre-defined.

You are wrong on several points.

Some people complained some prices were too high.

The 14 day limit affects every trader. Some say it hasn't affected them because they brought their prices down so items would shift within those 14 days - by definition this is them being affected by the change.

It certainly is not the only change to the trading system ZoS have made. Update 23 introduced multi-bidding for Guild Traders, which made a massive difference. If you weren't aware, a quick google would have informed you of this.

99.9% of things listed were not found in the game by players. There are very few raw mat sales (obviously apart from alchemy, provisioning, and enchanting, which do not have a processing stage). Indeed tempers are generally appropriated as a result of processing raw mats, and are linked to the skill you have to process them and the CP points you have invested. I would argue that anything bought from the master writ vendor could not be called "found", because you have to first obtain and then complete master writs to get the required tokens. Similarly, I'd say that the motifs obtained via the antiquaries system are not "found" - you have to invest in scrying and excavating. Some people sell gear and furnishings they have created - again, these are not "found", they require the investment of time and skill points, as well as obtaining plans, motifs, etc. Potions are not found, there's an investment of time and skill points.

There are no "free" items - otherwise everyone would have them and there would be no need to buy them. Everything, even just stopping to pick up columbine, has a cost - time, investment of skill points, playing capability. There are players who complain about the price of columbine who wouldn't bend over to pick up the flower at their feet.

As for the problems of the guilds, you don't seem to understand the OP. The whole point was that his guild was going out of business. Obviously they choose the location and the bid, that goes without saying. The point is that the cost of a successful bid is not sustainable. Now that might change, but in the meantime guilds are quitting, and when it does change the game loses the massive gold sink that high bids provide...

Very good points overall.

I will specifically note that those who likely don't care about the shortened time sell things that have a quicker turnover. Some things do not sell as frequently, like Motifs. They are only needed at a time, perhaps once per account. Or companion gear. This has made it harder to sell those things, but also made the prices go up in many cases.

I am vendoring quite a bit of companion gear now and I am likely to expand that soon. Just not worth it, even for the "good" traits!

This will ultimately impact trading guilds and that is likely not to be good for the game. Just another straw on the camel's back!

Vulkunne

DenverRalphy wrote: »

Vulkunne wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

DenverRalphy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

BlueRaven wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

fall0athboy wrote: »

ElderSmitter wrote: »

One of my All-Time Favorite Guilds Ankle Biters has put out a notice they are ceasing all Top Tier Raffles and giving up our Spot in Deshaan after Years of being a Staple to Local Buyers. The guild is not going out yet but will no longer Bid on Premium Spots. I was sad to see this upon logging in and checking my mail. Revenue has plummeted for the guild after the Changes made by Zos and the crumbling economy. Sad....

Okay, specifically what changes has ZOS made to "crumble the economy" and specifically how would you "save it"?

You do not know the changes? Read up then please. Many changes have taken place causing the economy to weaken... I am not complaining i have plenty of gold. It is just sad to see this taking place. there is another thread with tons of pages you can read up on it... I do not think there is a decline in players. I see folks everywhere. Best of luck.

I do not know the changes. Tell me them, specifically, please.

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8133068/#Comment_8133068

Specifically what thing in Update 42 is causing the economy to weaken? I do not know the economy in this game, I do not know what specifically affected it. Why are you not giving me a straight answer here?

The reason I didn’t specify is because we have a multitude of threads on the subject and I have no wish to derail this thread into another discussion on the significance of those changes.
It’s like participating in a tread about an earthbound meteor, and trying to explain to someone about the existence of gravity. While discussions about gravity were discussed at great length elsewhere.

Understand?

But in a nutshell:

Zos shortened the amount of time items stay on the trader in half and also shorten the amount of time unsold items stay in our mailbox significantly. This has put a lot of financial, inventory, AND “game time” pressure on sellers.
At the same time, zos introduced a super rare ink commodity that requires a lot of farming to find which has increased ore and other crafting materials flooding the market.

With decreased sales and players no longer wishing to participate, all of this has put trading guilds on the back foot. Basically unhappy (and dwindling) guild mates, and lower sales income to secure their regular locations.

That is the tldr version.

But this thread is about the trader guilds dying, not a rehash of what caused it.

The change to listing times and unread mail times had very little, if any at all, effect on the current market trends. It was simply mere coincidence that both happened simultaneously. And many would argue that the downward trend had started long before the change even came into effect.

The listing time only has a noticeable finiancial affect on items listed in the multi-million range. Niche items like furnishing plans that will likely need to be relisted, are a minor annoyance sure. But it's just that, a minor annoyance, no actionable financial impact.

The shorter unread mail times aren't at fault either. Will it take time to get used to? Sure. But really, the only people screaming about it are players who's longest time away from game can be measured in hours, not days, and certainly nowhere close to 14 days. And there's certainly no impact on the economy as a result.

And yet despite that, players will still toe the line and regurgitate the same false propoganda.

So in your opinion it’s just a coincidence that all the trading guilds started failing apart when they put in changes directly targeted to trade guild mechanics and functions.

Got it.

Yup. It's an ad-hominem claim. One has nothing to do with the other.

I eat Oranges daily. I don't have, nor ever have had, cancer. Does that mean Oranges prevent cancer?

[edit] And for the record, the change wasn't targeted at Trade Guild mechanics. It was a change to the Guild Traders operation. A very distinct difference.

I know several Trade Guilds who have been forced to 'suspend' their raffles and change their policies because of recent changes from ZOS. Guilds being forced to change their operations so quickly has caused alot of problems and not just for the Guild mgmt. but others within the Guild having to contribute more to keep their Kiosk. Reducing the sales duration has also created issues because everyone is forced to sell lower now. The thing is this, different Guilds, and players, have different sales strategies. As they say, time is money and more profit from more exclusive merch can be realized over time. Now, the market trend has changed noticeably, forcing things to sell much faster, albeit in some instances at only a fraction of what it could have been worth.

Players are forced to take losses while trying to fund a Guild's Kiosk, of which now they won't realize as much profit from and in some cases will no longer have a raffle to help compensate them. Kiosk is so expensive it only makes sense that the sellers get everything they can out of what an item is worth. But now everyone is forced to go for the 'quick sale' instead of there being other options. I'm one of those people who marks down things and goes for that 'quick sale' however now that everyone is forced to play the game this way, I make less. Some things won't sell at all unless I basically give them away because too many people are just doing whatever it takes to move something. Therefore, some items I don't even try to sell now, because competition is too high and the value has dropped so much so that it's just not worth it, I know others who have said the same and so availability of some items has also taken collateral damage as well.

This has created alot of pain and suffering in the market and yeah, some things are less expensive but alot of value has been lost from the economy and Kiosks prices are still very high. In short, ZOS changes are responsible for what we've been experiencing and much of the problems that already exists were culminated when the rng loot tables dropped for some expensive items and especially when the sales duration was shortened to two weeks max. Reducing the sales time greatly reduced the profit ceiling for many items. Thus, Guilds & players are realizing less profit, and Guilds are collapsing trying to hold onto their Kiosk with follow-up sales not strong enough to sustain them and shorter duration sales are killing profits.

It's a vicious cycle killing Trade Guilds and while prices are lower, the things we wish to sell are also worth less. Makes me wonder if those who complained previously about things being so expensive are happy making less gold now, if any at all.

The flaw in the logic within that wall of text, is that if another guild can take that spot, that's not on ZoS.

The only thing ZoS has done that would affect the sales revenue, is that they dumped boatloads of resources into the players hands. That affects everyone universally. It doesn't kill off guilds, it simply shifts the market. It's a guild's inability to adjust and adapt that kills a guild. I know of several top tier trade guilds that not only are they doing just fine, they're thriving.

Top Tier Trade Guilds drop off pretty regularly for a myriad of reasons. But somehow nobody really seems to take note unless there's a preceived (real or imaginary) way to blame it on ZoS.

I'm not interested in whose fault this is, only the fact that problems have arisen and there is a strong correlation between these issues and changes ZOS has made recently (because these specific issues were not realized before). Its really easy to see and if you ask around others will probably say something similar. I can't speak for them but I'm with several Guilds and all of them are having problems now. Especially if they can't afford Kiosk and have to cancel their raffles after the selling duration was reduced to two weeks.

Also, when a Guild falls apart, many times it seems like people view that Guild as being like a single person you know? But in reality that Guild probably represents a bunch of people, all of whom are going to be underwater when the Guild fails. Its true that other Guilds can try to fill that void, however they already have their own people to support with more people looking to regain status quo from a new Guild. So the pressure is on another Guild until they fall apart. Rinse and repeat.

spartaxoxo

Correlation =/= causation

The 14 day change is too recent to be the primary cause of decreased sales. And prices going down benefits buyers. So, it's actually more likely to be something that is boosting sales right now as buyers snap up cheap goods.

14 day is likely why some traders/guilds are quitting. They increased fees without more sales to make up for it means it's when they felt the burn the most. But, sales have been down for a while now. Some of that is the normal slump in materials/motifs/plans this time of year.

But, also there's pretty obviously less new players coming and going too. And old people are leaving.